Best Quality 10" Cabinet Saw

[Steve Mathews]

Safety features aside, what is the best quality 10" cabinet saw made today and why?

[Chris Hachet]

Safety features aside, what is the best quality 10" cabinet saw made today and why?This will open up a hornets next for sure....but I woudl say Saw Stop.

That being said, I would buy a Grizzly 1023 before I woudl buy a saw stop. 3 HP, decent customer service...

And if we are allowed to go used, One can pick up a Unisaw or PM 66 for 1/6 or 1/5 the cost of a new saw stop. A cabinet saw will run virtually forever taken care of. One of my woodworking friends has a 1940's era Unisaw his father bought during WWII, it still sees regular use and still is going strong.

[Mike Henderson]

Assuming you value your fingers, I'll suggest SawStop.

Mike

[Jerry Wright]

You need to specify desired price point when you talk about "best".

[Patrick Irish]

Used Unisaw for me was $700 with excalibur dust system I can easily sell for $250. Had to add a front rail, mobile base. For christmas I got a Sharguard riving knife setup as older saws dont have them.

I appreciate the safety features of the sawstop and if you have $3200 for a 3hp 52" fence go for it. If not, a used 3hp Unisaw or Grizz is a good deal. That Grizz 1023 is close to Unisaw you can get, good deal! Left tilt, riving knife, 500lbs.

[Ray Newman]

"You need to specify a desired price point when you talk about the 'best.' " --Jerry Wright

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ben Rivel]

OP, whats your price range?

[Matt Day]

This sounds like trolling for woodworkers. Just trying to get us fired up!

[Chris Hachet]

Assuming you value your fingers, I'll suggest SawStop.

MikeDepends, every other machine in the shop can be just as dangerous. For me, the table saw is a dedicated ripping machine-almost every other function I do with hand tools or routers.

[Chris Hachet]

"You need to specify a desired price point when you talk about the 'best.' " --Jerry Wright

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Best is whatever fits the individuals subjective desires best. Some guys like Old iron, some people like new machines. Some people would not live without the Saw Stop feature, some guys would scrap a brand new 3HP Sawstop out of spite just because they don't like Mr Gass. You might as well talk about the color of the machine....by that criteria, my vote would be 1960's Powermatic Green.

[Chris Hachet]

OP, whats your price range?I think he was looking at best quality at whatever price. The oversized trunions and oversized table on the Sawstop are nice, but not worth an additional $2500 IMHO

[scott spencer]

Depends on your needs, your budget, and your definition of quality....build quality, most powerful, user features, largest, most precise, longest lasting?

$1400 - new Grizzly G1023RL
$500-$1800 used Uni/PM66/General 650, etc., if you're willing to forego a riving knife and warranty, and accept prior usage....possibly heavy usage.
$3900 - new Saw Stop ICS


Best quality overall is subjective to a large degree, and I'm just not very familiar with much beyond the $3000-$4000 range.

The Saw Stop ICS is pretty robust under the hood, even without consideration for the safety feature, but also in part because of it....likely the most robust of the currently available standard "cabinet saws", excluding sliders and specialized commercial saws. The PM2000 is very substantial also, but I suspect the ICS has the edge. The Unisaw is close too, but issues with foreign ownership and manufacture, and recent stories of poor service and parts availability would scratch it off the list considering other solid choices. The SS PCS 3hp isn't quite in that league, but is a very solid saw with the T-Glide fence upgrade. Grizzly has some heavier duty saws beyond the G1023 and G0690, but I'm just not very familiar with them.

[Steve Mathews]

Sorry forum members, I didn't intend to create controversy and no I'm not a troll. And yes my question was about the best quality at any price safety features aside. I'm aware of the patented SawStop safety technology. What I'm not aware of is its overall quality compared to other cabinet saws.

[Chris Hachet]

Sorry forum members, I didn't intend to create controversy and no I'm not a troll. And yes my question was about the best quality at any price safety features aside. I'm aware of the patented SawStop safety technology. What I'm not aware of is its overall quality compared to other cabinet saws.


And I am sorry, maybe I was not clear in my response.

Find the one you like the most from a subjective viewpoint (try to use an actual version of the machine) buy it, make sawdust, rinse and repeat. A 1947 Unisaw and a modern Sawstop will work equally well for 98 percent of what you are going to do.

My only input would be four fold;

#1. I like how 3 phase motors run and the subjective feel of how the saw operates with a VFD and soft start/controlled stop. Used 3 phase cabinet saws can be had at a bargain price if you are patient and wait until you find a nice clean machine at a fair price. YMMV.

#2. I would choose a saw with 3 HP over a lower powered saw. A really ugly 1968 Powermatic with 3 HP would beat any 1.75 HP Saw stop IMHO. A 3 HP Sawstop would beat any nice restored vintage machine that ran on 110V and had 1.5 HP.

#3. You will probably adapt to the individual quirks of whatever machine you choose.

#4. Your own techniques with the saw will outweigh any brand decision-a skilled operater with a less than ideal saw will outperform a less than skilled operator with the best saw on the planet.

Bottom line-check out a few saws, buy what you like, and make sawdust. There is not one particular 'best saw."

[Mike Henderson]

Depends, every other machine in the shop can be just as dangerous. For me, the table saw is a dedicated ripping machine-almost every other function I do with hand tools or routers.
If every other class of machines had one or more companies who made one with a safety feature equivalent to what the SawStop has, I'd recommend the one with the safety feature. Just because you can't get an equivalent safety feature on a jointer (for example) is no reason to not get the safety feature on a table saw.

Mike

[Ron Citerone]

I use a Grizzly and Unisaw on a regular basis. I would rather have a decent used Unisaw over the Grizzly any day. Never used a Sawstop so I dont really know, but if you can afford it, the safety factor is huge. I used a table saw daily at work for 35 years and the only injury I had came from knot that kicked back and caught my finger. That doesnt mean a finger/blade accident couldn't happen though.

[Gregory Carles]

Embrace the technology, I recommend a saw stop. Since purchasing mine I have yet to go to the shop and say, I wish I had spent less for a saw. Instead I say I'm glad I got the correct saw (for me) (the first time). The saw stop is an engineering marvel. And super accurate and powerful. Hard to go wrong. I realize all machines can take a finger off mighty quick. Just if the technology is there with the table saw go for it. If I could get a jointer with this safety feature I would.

[Van Huskey]

1. Sawstop ICS
2. Powermatic PM2000 these two are very close

3. Sawstop PCS

I did not rank the Delta Uni which probably comes in at #3 but the company has been in flux and the production line has been moved more than once and I am never sure when/where one I am looking at was built.

[jack duren]

There really is no best. Assuming all saws cut the same the only thing left is accessories. You really can't get this kind of information on a hobby forum anyway.

[Mark Carlson]

If price and safety is not a factor but quality is, then its still the SawStop.

[Martin Wasner]

Quality? No one makes a quality 10" saw that I'm aware of. You have to get bigger to get into the good stuff.

[Joe Jensen]

I started in 1984 with a 1970s unisaw with a very early Biesemeyer fence. Great saw. I got the bug to switch to a Powermatic 66 in 1990, great saw. When my wife saw a video of the Sawstop ICS at a tool store she insisted that I get one. That saw IMHO was a clear step up from the Unisaw and PM66. With the Unisaw and PM66, you can't adjust for blade heel (Google that). All you can do is shim the saw to split the error but you can't adjust it. The Sawstop is adjustable in every direction and super well made. Clearly better made that today's new Powermatic, Jet, Griz, and the Unisaws until Delta sold.

Having said that, after the Sawstop I got a 1970s used 12" SCMI jointer and the build quality was a huge step up from anything I'd owned up until then. Soon after rebuilding the jointer I ordered a Felder 700 series slider/shaper combo and sold my Sawstop and PM26 shaper. The slider is superior in every way to the cabinet saw. So I'd say:
1) Euro Slider
2) Sawstop ICS
3) PM66 or Jet (color preference)
4) Griz
5) No Delta as they are effectively out of business for parts.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Quality? No one makes a quality 10" saw that I'm aware of. You have to get bigger to get into the good stuff.




Been using my 5 HP Sawstop ICS for 6 years now of daily use. I'd say, after the majority of my 46 1/2 years working in a custom shop... I can say its a decent quality saw. Prob my fave of the half dozen we've either owned or Ive run in other shops Ive worked in (Unisaws and general). Our last Unisaw was bought new in 88' and is still running in my old shop, several hours a day.

As for cutting, they all cut fine with a good setup and blade. I will say, after having several 3Hp cabinet saws, I would never go back from 5Hp and might even go to a 7.5Hp if I had to choose again.

For a 10" cabinet saw, and what it does in our shop (mainly ripping hardwoods) I really couldnt ask for much more than what the Sawstop does. Decent fence, holds setup well, smooth and stays clean (good dust collection and I like the guard a lot).

[David Kumm]

I think what most are saying about the ICS is fair. It is top of the 10" heap. Absent the safety stuff, most 12-14" saws are a much heavier build than the 10", even the ICS and a real bargain for those inclined. If you want a new 10" saw, the ICS is pick of the litter. Lots of other saws I'd prefer for the price, including sliders because larger saws are really cheap on the used market and will still be alive when most of the 10" are gone. Dave

[Steve Schoene]

It's not so much bigger as heavier. For example, the best is likely to be the made in USA Northfield no. 4. It will take a 14" blade, but since 3" would be above the top with that blade, measured in the same way as prosumer 10" that might be called a 8" saw, A bit pricy at about $15,000.

[Matt Day]

Quality? No one makes a quality 10" saw that I'm aware of. You have to get bigger to get into the good stuff.

That's overdoing it a bit don't you think? We're talking hobby stufff here, and he did say cabinet saw.

[Martin Wasner]

Been using my 5 HP Sawstop ICS for 6 years now of daily use. I'd say, after the majority of my 46 1/2 years working in a custom shop... I can say its a decent quality saw. Prob my fave of the half dozen we've either owned or Ive run in other shops Ive worked in (Unisaws and general). Our last Unisaw was bought new in 88' and is still running in my old shop, several hours a day.

As for cutting, they all cut fine with a good setup and blade. I will say, after having several 3Hp cabinet saws, I would never go back from 5Hp and might even go to a 7.5Hp if I had to choose again.

For a 10" cabinet saw, and what it does in our shop (mainly ripping hardwoods) I really couldnt ask for much more than what the Sawstop does. Decent fence, holds setup well, smooth and stays clean (good dust collection and I like the guard a lot).


I have a Tannewitz Type U that could legally drink about the time you were thinking about being a cabinet maker. It will likely last the rest of my career. I have a mid 70's #4 that will also likely last the rest of my career. The two Powermatic 66's in my shop, and the Delta Uni Saw will not fare as well. Cheap boxes full of cheap parts, but at least they are light enough to be thrown away easily.


That's overdoing it a bit don't you think? We're talking hobby stufff here, and he did say cabinet saw.

He said quality. Quality has nothing to do with how or who uses it.

[Bill Dufour]

Just to throw in some more names how about Wadkin and Clausing.
Bill D.

[Chris Hachet]

I have a Tannewitz Type U that could legally drink about the time you were thinking about being a cabinet maker. It will likely last the rest of my career. I have a mid 70's #4 that will also likely last the rest of my career. The two Powermatic 66's in my shop, and the Delta Uni Saw will not fare as well. Cheap boxes full of cheap parts, but at least they are light enough to be thrown away easily.



He said quality. Quality has nothing to do with how or who uses it.And this is where things get really dicey for me. As a hobbyist and a guy who builds things for friends, I am extremely happy with my Unisaw. However, I have been given a few chances to buy vintage Tannewitz and Oliver saws and I think I am falling hard for them like I fell hard for my wife when we first started dating 32 years ago. A little tool lust is a dangerous thing...

[David Kumm]

And this is where things get really dicey for me. As a hobbyist and a guy who builds things for friends, I am extremely happy with my Unisaw. However, I have been given a few chances to buy vintage Tannewitz and Oliver saws and I think I am falling hard for them like I fell hard for my wife when we first started dating 32 years ago. A little tool lust is a dangerous thing...


Slope is slippery indeed. Tear into a 75 year old machine and see helical gears, thrust bearings for every handwheel, 63xx spindle bearings and adjusting gibs every place that could wear. Bases cast to carry heavy internals rather than hanging them off the top or sheet steel. Fine grain meehanite graded cast iron planed to tolerances too expensive to duplicate today, and you realize that in their own way, these machines are art. Run 24/7 for 50 years, sit for 25 and still clean up and adjust to zero runout. Whitney, Greenlee, Yates, Tanny, Oliver, Wadkin, and Robinson. May not make any of us a better woodworker but it does change our perceptions of how machines can be made. Not for everyone but it doesn't take much cash to try it. Dave

[Edwin Santos]

Quality? No one makes a quality 10" saw that I'm aware of. You have to get bigger to get into the good stuff.

Martin, everything is relative. Having read some of your other posts, I think it's safe to say your definition of quality (and size and weight) are at a much different standard than the OP would probably find necessary.

It would be a treat to see your shop someday.

[Andrew Hughes]

You guys are just bragging.The Op probably just needs a saw to cut some boards for some shelving or a new patio.
Something simple.:)

[Mike Manning]

Slope is slippery indeed. Tear into a 75 year old machine and see helical gears, thrust bearings for every handwheel, 63xx spindle bearings and adjusting gibs every place that could wear. Bases cast to carry heavy internals rather than hanging them off the top or sheet steel. Fine grain meehanite graded cast iron planed to tolerances too expensive to duplicate today, and you realize that in their own way, these machines are art. Run 24/7 for 50 years, sit for 25 and still clean up and adjust to zero runout. Whitney, Greenlee, Yates, Tanny, Oliver, Wadkin, and Robinson. May not make any of us a better woodworker but it does change our perceptions of how machines can be made. Not for everyone but it doesn't take much cash to try it. Dave

Damn well said Dave!

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, everything is relative. Having read some of your other posts, I think it's safe to say your definition of quality (and size and weight) are at a much different standard than the OP would probably find necessary.

It would be a treat to see your shop someday.

My view has been skewed by making poorly informed decisions in equipment early on. Buying what I thought were good pieces from reputable manufactures only to be proven horribly wrong. It's all relative until something goes wrong and you're unable to get product out the door, and you're wasting valuable time fixing equipment instead of producing. Plus the time spent dealing with a lesser quality of cut, (I'm thinking more in terms of shapers or planers here).

For what you can get a used industrial quality saw for, I don't understand why you'd get anything else new. That is omitting whether or not you want a blade to be stopped before it mauls you, then you're screwed and that's a one pony race.

Swing by the shop someday. 95% of the time, someone is here.

[Prashun Patel]

The question is too vague. Please limit down more:

Is price an issue? If yes, what's the budget?

What are you making/anticipate making.?

What kind of space do you have?

As an owner of a Sawstop, here's what I can tell you - not that it's best - just good for me:

1) Great easy to change riving knife/guard.
2) Easy to access cabinet for cleaning
3) Very good fence that has been very accurate for me.

What I don't like
1) The braking feature can be an inconvenient and expensive if you own an aluminum miter fence, or like to use a dado stack frequently.
2) Other saws feature front-mount wheels for bevel, which I would find better if I did a lot of that.

While we all praise the fit and finish of the Sawstop, I suspect that the first thing to go will be all the fancy electronics or sensors. I have no reason to suspect this except that the electronics in cars seem to be the first thing to go. And when they do, it's not cheap. So, let's see what we're all saying about SS fit and finish in another 10-15 years...

[David Kumm]

Martin, obviously my view is the same as yours. I'm just a hobby guy - sometimes the hobby is rehabbing rather than woodworking- but I read a lot of posts about problems with machines and how to find parts, and customer support. Once my old stuff is adjusted and running it never needs any work ever again. Never goes out of adjustment and never fails. I'm not sure that old machines need more love than the new stuff. Hasn't been my experience. Dave

[Mark Carlson]

I love looking at old industrial table saws. Would I want a 12, 14, or 16in table saw? Probably not. My 10in canadian made General table saw does everything I need it to do and will last my lifetime. A really large planer or jointer, that I could see getting.

[Edwin Santos]

While we all praise the fit and finish of the Sawstop, I suspect that the first thing to go will be all the fancy electronics or sensors. I have no reason to suspect this except that the electronics in cars seem to be the first thing to go. And when they do, it's not cheap. So, let's see what we're all saying about SS fit and finish in another 10-15 years...

Prashun,
That's a very interesting point of speculation. I've been debating whether to join the Sawstop club myself. My only theory in response to the question you've raised is that if the fancy electronics or sensors failed, it would affect the braking only. In other words, it's not likely that a sensor or sensing electronics going bad would cause the saw to stop cutting. Of course, if the braking system was no longer working in the long haul, I'd hate to think the only way to find out is the loss of blood. But the point is the saw would still be a functioning, well built saw.
Do you have the PCS or ICS?
It would be interesting to ask SawStop for price on the replacement parts associated with the sensing system (not sure if this is a circuit board or sensors or what).

[Ben Rivel]

Prashun,
That's a very interesting point of speculation. I've been debating whether to join the Sawstop club myself. My only theory in response to the question you've raised is that if the fancy electronics or sensors failed, it would affect the braking only. In other words, it's not likely that a sensor or sensing electronics going bad would cause the saw to stop cutting.I suppose one could re-wire the saw such that the electronics were bypasses and the motor was powered directly off the mains and using a custom power switch, but the way it comes from the factory, if the circuitry, onboard "computer", or sensors no longer worked the saw woudnt still cut. The onboard "computer" runs checks every time the saw starts. If the saw fails these checks it wont turn on and the blade will not spin.

[Mike Henderson]

Prashun,
That's a very interesting point of speculation. I've been debating whether to join the Sawstop club myself. My only theory in response to the question you've raised is that if the fancy electronics or sensors failed, it would affect the braking only. In other words, it's not likely that a sensor or sensing electronics going bad would cause the saw to stop cutting. Of course, if the braking system was no longer working in the long haul, I'd hate to think the only way to find out is the loss of blood. But the point is the saw would still be a functioning, well built saw.
Do you have the PCS or ICS?
It would be interesting to ask SawStop for price on the replacement parts associated with the sensing system (not sure if this is a circuit board or sensors or what).
Based on conversations that I've had with SS, I think some of the sensor electronics is in the brake, itself. When I changed my brake, after I tripped it with a steel rule, I had trouble getting things adjusted so that it would work properly. Turned out I had the riving knife too close to the blade. When I asked why it worked with the old brake, the support guy told me that they changed the program in the brake.

Mike

[Nick Decker]

Edwin, the SS runs through an electronic "boot up" procedure each time you use it, so if something went wrong with the sensors I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be doing any cutting. No idea if it's even possible to bypass that system, but I doubt it.

Oops, cross-posted with some others.

[Van Huskey]

No idea if it's even possible to bypass that system, but I doubt it.

Bypassing all the electronics is almost certainly possible in the end it is just an induction motor like every other table saw so wiring around the electronics ould be pretty easy. The only other issue would be locking the arbor arm in position which I think is all mechanical.

[Ben Rivel]

Based on conversations that I've had with SS, I think some of the sensor electronics is in the brake, itself. When I changed my brake, after I tripped it with a steel rule, I had trouble getting things adjusted so that it would work properly. Turned out I had the riving knife too close to the blade. When I asked why it worked with the old brake, the support guy told me that they changed the program in the brake.

MikeHuh, I wonder if they do update/make changes in the brake firmware. That would be a good reason to not buy spare brakes and have them sitting around for years. If there were new firmware versions on newer brakes that might make the saw safer or fix a problem Id think we'd want to have that latest version. I wonder if SawStop will swap unused older brakes for newer ones with possibly newer firmware.

[Phil Mueller]

This thread and others like it, start to make me feel lucky that I have no room in my shop for a cabinet saw. I do appreciate the collective experience here at SMC, and knowing more about any wood shop tool is of interest to me.
Thanks all.

Now back to the discussion...

[Chris Hachet]

My view has been skewed by making poorly informed decisions in equipment early on. Buying what I thought were good pieces from reputable manufactures only to be proven horribly wrong. It's all relative until something goes wrong and you're unable to get product out the door, and you're wasting valuable time fixing equipment instead of producing. Plus the time spent dealing with a lesser quality of cut, (I'm thinking more in terms of shapers or planers here).

For what you can get a used industrial quality saw for, I don't understand why you'd get anything else new. That is omitting whether or not you want a blade to be stopped before it mauls you, then you're screwed and that's a one pony race.

Swing by the shop someday. 95% of the time, someone is here.I actually really agree with your thinking. Lots of small cabinet shops here in Ohio, both Amish and otherwise. There are auctions and decent used equipment available. Four grand to sawstop vs four grand on the used market is a no brainier IMHO for used equipment. Others opinions may vary.

[Chris Hachet]

I love looking at old industrial table saws. Would I want a 12, 14, or 16in table saw? Probably not. My 10in canadian made General table saw does everything I need it to do and will last my lifetime. A really large planer or jointer, that I could see getting.And this goes back to me saying it is subjective. As a hobbyist, buy what you like and can afford.

[Chris Hachet]

This thread and others like it, start to make me feel lucky that I have no room in my shop for a cabinet saw. I do appreciate the collective experience here at SMC, and knowing more about any wood shop tool is of interest to me.
Thanks all.

Now back to the discussion...Why? All of the major cabinet saws work very well. At the end of the day one might as well debate Steelers vs Cowboys vs. Whomever.

[Phil Mueller]

My point was only that there is a lot to consider and I tend to get wrapped up in the pros and cons to the point of eternal procrastination. If I were in the market, the input here would be very much appreciated. And from my point of view, your point that all major cabinet saws work well, seems to be what I would conclude.

[Chris Hachet]

My point was only that there is a lot to consider and I tend to get wrapped up in the pros and cons to the point of eternal procrastination. If I were in the market, the input here would be very much appreciated. And from my point of view, your point that all major cabinet saws work well, seems to be what I would conclude.You and I agree more than you think also. Lots of these threads tend to be more about retail therapy and justifying decisions we have made than about actual woodworking. We would be ahead as woodworkers all of us myself included if we spent as much time talking about techniques and safe practices as we do about different brands.

[Edwin Santos]

Edwin, the SS runs through an electronic "boot up" procedure each time you use it, so if something went wrong with the sensors I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be doing any cutting. No idea if it's even possible to bypass that system, but I doubt it.

Oops, cross-posted with some others.
Thanks for educating me on this. I've only used a SawStop once, the PCS model I think. I shouldn't have speculated about a machine I know little about. I do now recall the LED green light that made the difference between the power switch doing nothing and turning the blade.

Prashun's question about the long term reliability of the electronics is a good one. One good thing is that many Sawstop saws are subjected to very heavy use in industrial applications and so far so good.

You do wonder about electronic components being the weak link though. Reminds me of my friend's sophisticated BMW that had a fuel level sensor that failed and thought the gas tank was empty when it was full. So the car wouldn't start and he had to have it towed to the BMW dealer. Maybe this idea argues for the bulletproof "work of art" old iron that some of the responses have been talking about.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Not everyone has access to used or older industrial machinery. Machinery that is in running shape, no work needed.

I appreciate the older stuff ( some of it, not all) and understand points made. But not everyone wants to hire a truck or trailer or take a few days off to go look/pick up some machine.

My point is, if a good 10" saw will last daily rigorous use in a working shop... as I know it will based on my previous post. Why say they're not quality? That's a bit of a stretch imo.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

This sounds like trolling for woodworkers. Just trying to get us fired up!

Prolly won't find anyone argue that SawStop's the best Cabinet Saw around. It's when you open the category up to a slider that the controversy starts....

[James Williams 007]

The quality of the Sawstop is top notch. I bought one for my dad as a x-mas gift because hes a surgeon and knew the tech was solid but had doubts about the build quality. Boy was I wrong, you couldn't ask for a better saw. Solid build and it has a slick mobile base. This will be my next saw if my Jet ever needs to be replaced.

[sebastian phillips]

My point is, if a good 10" saw will last daily rigorous use in a working shop... as I know it will based on my previous post. Why say they're not quality? That's a bit of a stretch imo.

Exactly.
Wonder how many thousands of kitchens have been built in shops running only Unisaws or their clones??
Nothing too demanding about ripping 4/4 hardwoods and .75 sheet goods, daily, year after year.

[george wilson]

i bought my Clausing 10" saw in 1963, and still use it, having never needed to "upgrade" my own saw. Here's why I prefer it over the Unisaw(which I like better as far as aesthetics are concerned)

Clausing is TWICE as heavy as the Unisaw. It has larger trunnions,worm gears,etc. inside.

The fence DOES NOT move when you lock it down. The original fences that Unisaws had ALWAYS move when you lock them down!

The Clausing runs MUCH more smoothly than the Unisaw. The weight and probably precision of parts is better throughout.

The Unisaw has a lot of pot metal parts on it. Delta machines always have these,and should NOT.

Things I DON'T like about the clausing:

The spatter paint they sprayed it with. If I had the energy,I'd strip the entire saw and paint it with a SMOOTH gray paint, like the Unisaw.

The 3/4" arbor on the Clausing makes it a PITA to buy blades for these days. In the 60's, little knock out bushings came on every blade. Just knock them out to change from 5/8" to 3/4". They do not have those bushings any more. Fortunately, also having a machine shop,I bore out new blades I buy to 3/4". That becomes a lot more trouble when fitting a stacked dado set!

The aesthetics of the Clausing aren't as pleasing as the Unisaw. That probably doesn't matter to a lot of people, and, indeed, is not really a factor in judging how good a machine is.

I bought a SAW STOP for the Toolmaker's Shop shortly before I retired, as my new aprentice had never used a table saw. Obviously it is a high quality made saw. I wish the arbor had Acme threads instead of those standard "V" threads. That is a cheap way to make it. With Acme type threads, which ALL saws USED to have, the blade has the wide, flat spots on the thread to sit upon. With the V threads, blades just sit on the sharp crests, which will not last as long as Acme threads on their crests.

The Saw Stop can ONLY be run with their own dado set. And, you cannot use anything except 10" blades. There goes my special 6" blades for cutting guitar frets grooves at .023" wide.

10" blades VARY a bit. At least 1/16" when new. To get the saw to start, the brake pad's distance to the bade has to be adjusted just right. I found my new Saw Stop to be bothersome to get going!

You don't DARE cutting any material that has even a MICROSCOPIC amount of aluminum in it: The brake will engage, costing you the $85.00 for the brake, and the $100.00 for a new blade. An architectural model maker friend of mine had had about TEN

false firings of the brakes. They used plexiglass with mirror backing for windows on their models. The mirror dust had gotten into the works and kept blowing out brakes even when cutting other materials with no metal !
The only cure was to take the top off the saw, and thoroughly clean EVERY crevice where the aluminum dust might be hiding.

There were other things I didn't like, but this post has gotten long enough already.

[Chris Hachet]

i bought my Clausing 10" saw in 1963, and still use it, having never needed to "upgrade" my own saw. Here's why I prefer it over the Unisaw(which I like better as far as aesthetics are concerned)

Clausing is TWICE as heavy as the Unisaw. It has larger trunnions,worm gears,etc. inside.

The fence DOES NOT move when you lock it down. The original fences that Unisaws had ALWAYS move when you lock them down!

The Clausing runs MUCH more smoothly than the Unisaw. The weight and probably precision of parts is better throughout.

The Unisaw has a lot of pot metal parts on it. Delta machines always have these,and should NOT.

Things I DON'T like about the clausing:

The spatter paint they sprayed it with. If I had the energy,I'd strip the entire saw and paint it with a SMOOTH gray paint, like the Unisaw.

The 3/4" arbor on the Clausing makes it a PITA to buy blades for these days. In the 60's, little knock out bushings came on every blade. Just knock them out to change from 5/8" to 3/4". They do not have those bushings any more. Fortunately, also having a machine shop,I bore out new blades I buy to 3/4". That becomes a lot more trouble when fitting a stacked dado set!

The aesthetics of the Clausing aren't as pleasing as the Unisaw. That probably doesn't matter to a lot of people, and, indeed, is not really a factor in judging how good a machine is.

I bought a SAW STOP for the Toolmaker's Shop shortly before I retired, as my new aprentice had never used a table saw. Obviously it is a high quality made saw. I wish the arbor had Acme threads instead of those standard "V" threads. That is a cheap way to make it. With Acme type threads, which ALL saws USED to have, the blade has the wide, flat spots on the thread to sit upon. With the V threads, blades just sit on the sharp crests, which will not last as long as Acme threads on their crests.

The Saw Stop can ONLY be run with their own dado set. And, you cannot use anything except 10" blades. There goes my special 6" blades for cutting guitar frets grooves at .023" wide.

10" blades VARY a bit. At least 1/16" when new. To get the saw to start, the brake pad's distance to the bade has to be adjusted just right. I found my new Saw Stop to be bothersome to get going!

You don't DARE cutting any material that has even a MICROSCOPIC amount of aluminum in it: The brake will engage, costing you the $85.00 for the brake, and the $100.00 for a new blade. An architectural model maker friend of mine had had about TEN

false firings of the brakes. They used plexiglass with mirror backing for windows on their models. The mirror dust had gotten into the works and kept blowing out brakes even when cutting other materials with no metal !
The only cure was to take the top off the saw, and thoroughly clean EVERY crevice where the aluminum dust might be hiding.

There were other things I didn't like, but this post has gotten long enough already.I always enjoy your posts. Agree on the Unsiaw and pot metal, and on your critique of the saw stop. Eventually I plan to upgrade to something vintage by someone like Olivier or Tanneswitz, but right now I am too busy building things to worry about another table saw. Trying to upgrade the rest of the shop first...

Clausing is a very nice saw, given the opportunity would love to own one. Agree with your philosophy of buy it once and do it right.

[Nick Decker]

"The Saw Stop can ONLY be run with their own dado set."

As far as I know, you can run any 8" dado set. I get your point about blades in general, though. It can be persnickity.

[Steve Demuth]

The question is too vague. Please limit down more:
While we all praise the fit and finish of the Sawstop, I suspect that the first thing to go will be all the fancy electronics or sensors. I have no reason to suspect this except that the electronics in cars seem to be the first thing to go. And when they do, it's not cheap. So, let's see what we're all saying about SS fit and finish in another 10-15 years...

I very much agree - have the same reaction to the new Nova drill press. Solid state electronics are in general pretty reliable, but they are not maintainable, and are negatively affected over time by temperature cycling, power cycling and physical shock. They also become obsolete quickly (there are parts in 20 year old electronics today that are almost impossible to source new). I'm looking for a new saw, but am increasingly inclined toward one without the electronics.

[Roger Feeley]

I have a Sawstop ICS but from the threads I read here, the next step up would be a slider of some sort. Posters say that the SS safety system is unnecessary with a slider.

[Mike Henderson]

I have a Sawstop ICS but from the threads I read here, the next step up would be a slider of some sort. Posters say that the SS safety system is unnecessary with a slider.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "unnecessary" but the way you use a slider is very different than the way you use a cabinet saw and you're less likely to get your hand into the blade.

I wouldn't mind having a slider but just don't have the room. Plus, I've been able to do what I need to do with a cabinet saw and a track saw.

Mike

[Curt Harms]

Slope is slippery indeed. Tear into a 75 year old machine and see helical gears, thrust bearings for every handwheel, 63xx spindle bearings and adjusting gibs every place that could wear. Bases cast to carry heavy internals rather than hanging them off the top or sheet steel. Fine grain meehanite graded cast iron planed to tolerances too expensive to duplicate today, and you realize that in their own way, these machines are art. Run 24/7 for 50 years, sit for 25 and still clean up and adjust to zero runout. Whitney, Greenlee, Yates, Tanny, Oliver, Wadkin, and Robinson. May not make any of us a better woodworker but it does change our perceptions of how machines can be made. Not for everyone but it doesn't take much cash to try it. Dave

All true but for those of us with basement shops, what we'd save on equipment we'd spend (plus a bunch likely) on getting those probably 700 lb.+ machines home and in our shops. There's little doubt that for some of us with the right physical plant and mechanical & electrical skills, retired industrial machines are the way to go.

[Chris Hachet]

I very much agree - have the same reaction to the new Nova drill press. Solid state electronics are in general pretty reliable, but they are not maintainable, and are negatively affected over time by temperature cycling, power cycling and physical shock. They also become obsolete quickly (there are parts in 20 year old electronics today that are almost impossible to source new). I'm looking for a new saw, but am increasingly inclined toward one without the electronics.This is my thinking on equipment as well.

[Chris Hachet]

Depends on your needs, your budget, and your definition of quality....build quality, most powerful, user features, largest, most precise, longest lasting?

$1400 - new Grizzly G1023RL
$500-$1800 used Uni/PM66/General 650, etc., if you're willing to forego a riving knife and warranty, and accept prior usage....possibly heavy usage.
$3900 - new Saw Stop ICS


Best quality overall is subjective to a large degree, and I'm just not very familiar with much beyond the $3000-$4000 range.

The Saw Stop ICS is pretty robust under the hood, even without consideration for the safety feature, but also in part because of it....likely the most robust of the currently available standard "cabinet saws", excluding sliders and specialized commercial saws. The PM2000 is very substantial also, but I suspect the ICS has the edge. The Unisaw is close too, but issues with foreign ownership and manufacture, and recent stories of poor service and parts availability would scratch it off the list considering other solid choices. The SS PCS 3hp isn't quite in that league, but is a very solid saw with the T-Glide fence upgrade. Grizzly has some heavier duty saws beyond the G1023 and G0690, but I'm just not very familiar with them.From what little I know of the heavier saws they also seem like clones of Delta equipment.

[Van Huskey]

From what little I know of the heavier saws they also seem like clones of Delta equipment.

What are you considering "heavier saws" and which Delta do you think they copy. I can't quite make the jump. In their "day" Delta and Powermatic were both light duty machine manufacturers and I don't see any direct cloning from them in the TS market, even within Delta and Powermatic the move to riving knife saws caused both to completely redesign their saws so there isn't much direct links from the PM 66 to the PM2000 nor the old to the new Uni.

On the electronics issue it begs the question of how long "we" expect the service life for these machines to be. You can easily find Chiwanese machines that are 15-20 years old that have been scrapped due to mechanical parts availability. I think we may be fooling ourselves if we think the average Chinese made TS is a heirloom that will be handed down from generation to generation.

[Chris Hachet]

What are you considering "heavier saws" and which Delta do you think they copy. I can't quite make the jump. In their "day" Delta and Powermatic were both light duty machine manufacturers and I don't see any direct cloning from them in the TS market, even within Delta and Powermatic the move to riving knife saws caused both to completely redesign their saws so there isn't much direct links from the PM 66 to the PM2000 nor the old to the new Uni.

On the electronics issue it begs the question of how long "we" expect the service life for these machines to be. You can easily find Chiwanese machines that are 15-20 years old that have been scrapped due to mechanical parts availability. I think we may be fooling ourselves if we think the average Chinese made TS is a heirloom that will be handed down from generation to generation.


I was thinking that maybe they took some inspiration from the 1214 series of Table saws. In terms of service life, the outright majority of the older American machines have been scrapped as well. I would assume most of these machines died from neglect and abuse rather than actually fully wearing out. Probably the same thing with modern Chiwanese machines. Personally, I like older American iron but am under no illusion that it is perfect.

[David Kumm]

If you go back 10-15 years, some of the Asian clones were pretty close to the original unisaw or Delta 12-14 late model. I know that Grizzly parts were ordered for old Delta 12-14 machines as they were often a direct replacement. Planers looked similar but had different speeds and I suspect more differences than were obvious. The early 14" bandsaws were direct clones although badly done. I keep remembering Elephant or a similar animal name for early Taiwan machines that were pretty close copies. The machining and castings were pretty horrible back then so not all that much was a direct fit. Dave

[Phillip Gregory]

The best quality cabinet saws run larger than 10" blades, such as a Tannewitz, Yates-American, Whitney, Oliver, or Northfield cabinet saw, which ran/run 12-16" blades on something larger than a 5/8" arbor. If you stretch "cabinet saw" to include sliders, there are some excellent European units available, most of which use 300+ mm (12"+) blades.

Probably the best saw designed to be at most a 10" blade non-sliding cabinet saw was the green Powermatic 66, which is in my opinion a touch better than the original and certainly very good Delta Unisaw.

All of the new, currently manufactured 10" cabinet saws I am aware of are made in Southeast Asia and are very similar if not identical, and are in the same general ballpark as the old Unisaw as they are very closely based on it. The SawStop has its one unique feature but otherwise it appears similar to the others. The old Unisaw was a little better fitted and finished than the typical new Asian cabinet saw, but the newer units are left tilt, have riving knives, and have provisions for dust collection, so it's really a "pick 'em" situation. None of them are in the same league as the big guys weighing a half ton plus though. But, as somebody who owns a newer 10" Asian cabinet saw, it is still a giant step up from a contractor saw or an upside-down circular saw benchtop unit, and really a pretty decent unit.

[Patrick Curry]

Can you elaborate? Most of us can find a used Unisaw fir the same price as a 1023 (or lwas)

[David Kumm]

I think most of the new saws have changed enough that they don't follow the old designs anymore. I don't have a Uni picture but this is a Rockwell 12. If you look at the comparable on the websites you will see little similarity.356849356850356851 This is much heavier than a 10" but much lighter than an old cast iron Whitney, Oliver, Wadkin type. The 12" saw is really the bargain used. As you can see, this one is even single phase, with a sliding table and separate scoring. Pristine and still only worth about 2K on the market. Dave

[Phillip Gregory]

I think most of the new saws have changed enough that they don't follow the old designs anymore. I don't have a Uni picture but this is a Rockwell 12. If you look at the comparable on the websites you will see little similarity.356849356850356851 This is much heavier than a 10" but much lighter than an old cast iron Whitney, Oliver, Wadkin type. The 12" saw is really the bargain used. As you can see, this one is even single phase, with a sliding table and separate scoring. Pristine and still only worth about 2K on the market. Dave

Riving knives and left tilt have changed designs somewhat, but many saws still are very obviously based on the Unisaw. For example the Grizzly G0690 and the several other makers that sell this exact saw are unmistakably based on the Unisaw. Look at the trunions, they are a mirror image of Unisaw trunions. They also share the Unisaw's now unnecessary triple sheave pulleys as well.

There are other designs out there, such as your Rockwell 12 which is based on European sliding saws. American saws didn't often have sliding tables (although some of the big ones like Olivers sometimes did) and scoring blades are very European.

[David Kumm]

Phillip, you are correct about the 690. I was talking about then 1023 referred to above. The 690 is a close copy as was the 12" Grizzly used to sell. The Rockwell 12 is an American design with an afterthought sliding table that was also copied by Grizzly. It has nothing in common with Euro sliders and is really mediocre in comparison. Lots of old American saws had sliders although seldom longer than a 60" crosscut as plywood was scarce. All were in the 14-18" blade range though. 32-36" crosscut was the most common with varying width tables. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I have to throw the Minimax SC10 in the mix. Great saw.

[Rick Potter]

Going by original wording of your question....(safety aside...cabinet saw....made today), I will have to go with Van Huskey. SawStop ICS (not PCS) or Powermatic PM 2000.

I have a SawStop PCS, and it is a great saw, but not quite as well built as my 25 year old Unisaw. The ICS is sturdier, and larger.

I do not mention sliders as they are not cabinet saws.

[Ron Bontz]

Personally I would just suggest good old fashion common sene. There is a reason they paint the blade insert RED. A heavy duty wood shaper can be a lot more dangerous than a cabinet saw. All things are relative. :)

[Chris Hachet]

Personally I would just suggest good old fashion common sene. There is a reason they paint the blade insert RED. A heavy duty wood shaper can be a lot more dangerous than a cabinet saw. All things are relative. :)That approach works well for me!

[Peter Kuhlman]

Of the current new cabinet saws I have seen the SS has the nicest fit and finish - very shiny and pretty. Very well made internals with heavy castings of the trunnions. Concern is long term with the electronic stuff. Next would be the Powermatic or General if still sold. Thought I read that General was no longer available.
Mine is a 15 year old or more Bridgewood left tilt that I love. At the time it had the beefiest trunnion of any 10" cabinet saw made and was a fairly close clone of the PM.
Safety wise I am most concerned with kickback having been on receiving end of that with a Crapsman contractor saw. Kickback can cause severe internal injuries, far worse than loosing a finger. The fence quality, repeatability and accuaracy of fence setup is critical to stopping kickback. I use an Incra fence now as like the really accurate and repeatable fence with 3 point lockdown. Never felt safe with the traditional Beisemayer (sp) style fences. I also use feather boards, special push blocks, overhead guard, etc for safety and control.
Safety and injuries are common topics here. All machines are dangerous if used unsafely. The most serious injury I have seen was my boss about 20 years ago who shaved off half the thickness of the meat and bone of his right hand on a jointer. Took a couple years to get most of his hand usage back. Everyone talks about table saw injuries but please realize you can have more serious injuries with other machinery in your shop if not careful.

[Roy Turbett]

I wonder if SawStop will swap unused older brakes for newer ones with possibly newer firmware.

Not a chance. That would entail a recall of a part that retails for $70. I had a brake trip for no apparent reason on my older ICS that I suspect was original to the machine. I sent it in to SawStop and they it was my fault for not adjusting it properly when I changed blades. But the blade was one I had been using for months without a problem. Bottom line is I was out $70 for the cartridge plus $55 for the blade.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Not a chance. That would entail a recall of a part that retails for $70. I had a brake trip for no apparent reason on my older ICS that I suspect was original to the machine. I sent it in to SawStop and they it was my fault for not adjusting it properly when I changed blades. But the blade was one I had been using for months without a problem. Bottom line is I was out $70 for the cartridge plus $55 for the blade.

My first trip was 4 or so years ago, when there was several bad power fluctuations in my shop feed in quick succession, when they were working close by on the feed lines to my shop. I just sent the cartridge to SS to inspect, and they told me it was something to do with the power spiking.

They sent me a new cartridge and a blade, absolutely for free. I like that customer service.

As for all the people concerned with electronics failing... the saw can always be re wired with a standard mag starter. Nothing says you cant bypass the electronics if you either cannot or will not get replacement parts.

[John Gulick]

Sawstop 10" cabinet saw. best 4k I ever spent

[Mitch Bray]

Laguna has the nicest looking 10" cabinet saw I've seen with the "dovetail saw". It is a throwback to the way tablesaws used to be made before the beancounters took charge. I was looking at purchasing that or their t5s (which is not a 10") when I ran across a newer Moak is pristine condition for half the price.

[rudy de haas]

An interesting discussion - all the way through I kept hoping for a clear definition of quality but didn't see one. However, no one seems to quoted the definitive answer provided in the woodworker's anti-faq ( see http://www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html ). In part..:
---
No question: Sears. Bennett accurately described how great Sears table saws are and about all their special features. They're even better than the Inca, General, Powermatic or Delta cabinet saws. After all, he wrote the table saw FAQ, so he should know. Not only do Sears table saws sort of cut wood and body parts, but they also can be used to achieve special colouring (coloring, Unisaw) and dye effects that would otherwise require hours of painstaking finishing work. Among the special features discovered by Bennett, which Sears does not advertise, is the "pulse temperature alteration" process which turn maple into walnut and instantly ages cherry to a patina that normally takes decades to achieve. It also enhances the grain pattern of dull woods by having the aluminium (aluminum, Keeter) top add attractive black streaks to your wood, turning it into zebrawood without the aggravating unworkability or price of the real thing.


The new Ridgid saws at the Borg apparently have the same features.
---
the anti-faq is funny in places...

[Bill Dufour]

I looked, Rolls Royce made a lathe but not a tablesaw.
Bill