working with laminate

[Bob Cooper]

i've built a fair number of cabinets and now i'm putting laminate on some for the first time. I'm sure i'll have lots of questions but here's my first

what's a good way to cut it? table saw vs. angle grinder? does it affect a typical WWII blade? I need to rip a 4x8 sheet down to about 25 or 26" x 8' and then glue/trim w/a router.

Also i'm planning on using contact cement + dowels as a spacer.

anythign i need to be aware of given that this is the first time i've ever done this?

[Lee Schierer]

In my experience, trying to cut laminate on a TS can be a problem. It doesn't want to lie flat and tends to chatter as it is cut, which is bad. Because it is thin, it tends to slide under your fence and hang up as you try to feed it.

You need to cut it slightly oversize so you can trim it later with a flush cut router.

The new water based contact cement is no where as strong and long lasting as the solvent based ones. Be sure to put at least two heavy coats on your substrate before gluing.

[Dick Mahany]

I used a 40 tooth Forrest WWII to cut a number of full sheets on my table saw. Produced super clean cuts and didn't phase the blade one bit. The edges were trimmed with a small trim router and flush trimming bit after gluing it down to the substrate. I had the problem of the sheet wanting to slide under my Bies fence, so I kept a slight curve to the infeed to prevent that, but made sure the laminate was flat against the saw table at the blade.

I also second that the newer water based contact cements aren't as strong as the good old smelly solvent based stuff and had some delaminating when I used it. The standard method of using temporary dowels works like a charm.

[Tim Bueler]

I use a scoring knife. Just score and snap. Careful! Those raw edges are jagged and razor sharp!

Make sure your laminate and substrate are both acclimatized.

For contact cement I still prefer the good old-fashioned smelly stuff. The water based just never dazzled me. It was nice not having to wear a respirator but I had some delaminations.:mad: That's been over 15 years ago though, maybe the newer water based formulations are better. That said, a couple of the big shops I've seen that have a big press will use regular old PVA glue out of a 300 gal tote. Kinda interesting to watch. Messy though.

Dowels, rope, extension cord, venetian blinds. Lot's of things will work for a spacer. Once I have the laminate where I want I'll start pulling out the spacer(s). If it's a long piece I'll usually start in the center and work both ways, pull spacers and smoothing with my hand as I go so as not to trap air underneath. Then a good rolling to make sure it connected well. Trim with a good quality carbide bit. Lately I've been liking the downshear bits. Less chance for chipping. Finally I'll break the trimmed edge with a file just to knock the sharpness off.

It's really pretty easy with a shallow learning curve IMO. I think the biggest things are to make sure you have plenty of spacers and that the laminate is exactly where you want it before first contact.

[andy bessette]

I use carbide blades on table saw, bandsaw, builders saw and track saw for cutting laminate. Carbide flush trim router bit for trimming to size. Use a laminate roller to bed it, working from the center out. Rarely do I need dowels--only where the panel is very large. Otherwise I set the panel onto the laminate, rather than the reverse, using my finger tips to hold the panel away while aligning. Plywood edge grain requires extra coats of contact cement.

[Bob Cooper]

I think the biggest things are to make sure you have plenty of spacers and that the laminate is exactly where you want it before first contact.

i picked up 9 1/2" dowels to cover 8'...i'm thinking 1' apart is close enough.

Also the top is 16' long top composed of 2 8' pieces of 3/4" particle board. So i'm assuming i'm going to laminate each piece first and then abut them together -- i.e. not create one big 16' long top and then attaching the laminate. i'll do a front piece -- to hang over the front of the face frame -- first and then the top.

[Frankie Hunt]

In total agreement with Tim. Use a scoring knife and a straight edge, then snap. Cut oversize and trim with a flush trim bit in the router. The original smelly contact cement is the best, but use in a well ventilated area!! Use plenty of sticks/dowels to keep it separated and start removing the sticks in the center and work outward. Use a J roller and work out from the center. A rubber mallet works in a pinch.

[Jeff Duncan]

I use the tablesaw for laminate, anything else just takes too much time, especially when your doing a number of cuts. If your only doing a couple than scoring is fine. If you plan to do more in the future I recommend getting a length of 1/16" thick 1" x1" angle aluminum. Whenever your cutting thin stuff just use a piece of masking tape to attach it to your fence and keep the sheets on top of it. Since it's so thin and you always cut laminate oversize you don't even have to worry about adjusting cut size for it.

I think your plan for laminating the two tops and then attaching should work well. There is a nice little router made by Beaver tools that does seams for long pieces like that.....but probably a bit too spend for a single job;)

As far as spacing goes....absolutely make sure you do a test run first!!!! With horizontal grade laminate you may get away with 1 dowel per foot.....but I wouldn't make any assumptions!! If it's vertical grade I'd say no way, you'll need more dowels/spacers to make it work. I cannot stress this one detail enough....once the glue is ready and the laminate touches it, there's no repositioning it, it's done!!! Test run, test run, test run!!!

good luck,
JeffD

[julian abram]

I realize you may not have a track saw but I flip a sheet of laminate face down on a sheet of blue Dow board and cut it up with a track saw. I've probably cut up 10 sheets in the past couple years, track saw works great. :)

[Bob Cooper]

one other thing that was kind of shocking...this stuff was about $80/sheet. wow...just didn't know it was so expensive.

[Warren Lake]

cost relates to what it is ive seen Nevamar stuff with 20 plus years use on it still looks perfect. Table saw is how i mostly cut it, make sure it doesnt get under the fence. lots of time I held it up in a bit of a circle depends what you are cutting on some jobs had shapes to them I cut it with a router oversize by whatever lay the sheet on top of the top sometimes up to 10 feet long. Also did the scoring thing the odd time if the sheet was too big to handle on the saw or had horses and beams set up for support on 10 foot sheets Your overhang doesnt matter too much 1/2" -1" or so, too much and you might snap it. Had a few different trimmers one flush then pre set bevel trimmers. Only used the old contact cement and sprayed with a suction primer gun mcgiverd to be a pressure gun, gravity feed would be better if pressurized even better, better shops used white glue and a press. If you are doing something with a solid edge run good quality masking tape around that keeps any off the wood that would have to be sanded off later, more messy with spraying but rather spray than roll. if you roll spray contact but brushed on use two coats. my dowels were not set distance but more like 6-8" because overkill is better, added time is nothing putting on a few more then pulling them out as you go. Make sure stuff is super clean using the same sticks over and over in time they can have some contact transfer and pick up a few aliens, they wont help in any positive way so I always rub the dowels down quick hand or sometimes some sandpaper. Probably forgotten some stuff been a while since I used it. My desk has nevamar and been treated hard this is about 30 years old, MRX6T or something like that Charcaol matrix I think it was called. Hopefully its not like power tools and they have made it cheaper than in the past. Depending on what you are doing you might need a backer to balance tension.

[andy bessette]

Should have mentioned that I use a yellow foam roller that is made for epoxy. For small jobs, just a throwaway brush.

[Wayne Lomman]

Bob, plenty of good advice from the others but I would point out a few things.
Firstly, construct your top fully before laminating. It's a no no to join your laminate and substrate in the same place. Off set the joint at least 100mm. Any other joining method is cutting corners.
Secondly, use a solvent borne heat resistant contact glue. Others will fail. Spray the glue. An average quality suction gun with a 2.0mm tip works well.
Thirdly, belt sand the substrate flat and dust everything down twice. When the contact is ready to lay, run your hand over both surfaces to check for nibs and get rid of them before laying.
To get a perfect join in the laminate, use a hand plane to clean up the edges. When straight, use a file to back off the reverse edge a little so it is a tight joint. Cheers

[Joe Spear]

I use my tablesaw with a plywood blade. Clamp your fence down really tight to the table so the laminate doesn't slide underneath. It won't chatter and buckle if you hold it down firmly. In the past I have tried the scoring method. The tablesaw produces smooth edges and is much easier. You probably should cut it slightly oversize and trim with a router after gluing to the substrate.

[Joe Kieve]

All the above is good advice. A couple more things though:

*Cutting on a table saw is fine but get someone to help. It's a lot easier that way.

*Use old time stinky contact cement

*If you have an edge band on your top, do it first; then lay the top over it. It keeps stuff from hanging up when sliding across it.

*You can use a cheap 9" paint roller to apply the glue. Lay the plastic on top of your table, roll the glue on, move it, then roll the top.

*If you mess up, you can always use lacquer thinner (not acetone) to unglue it. Let it dry and then reapply.

[Ole Anderson]

As far as glue, I guess I will be the contrary opinion. Our local cabinet supplier sells all three major brands of laminate. Anything you want is just a day away from the distributor, and you don't need to buy full sheets. Thinner edging (2" wide?) suitable for curves is available. I'm not even sure they sell solvent based contact cement anymore due to VOC laws in commercial work. I used Wilsonart water based glue IIRC (available clear and green) and had no problems. Did 8 large desktops with curved corners for work, 12 years later they are still going strong. Several projects since then, too. Helped my dad do a number of tables for the office coffee room when I was 14, (I'm now 69). Working in our basement, spilled a gallon of the old style contact cement. Quite a high time cleaning it up. Cabinet supplier sells and recommends a disposable pad style applicator to spread the glue after pouring it on the surface, they work great, clean up with water if you catch it before it starts to tack is real nice.

[Roy Turbett]

i picked up 9 1/2" dowels to cover 8'...i'm thinking 1' apart is close enough.



I use the slats from an old set of plastic mini-blinds for spacers. They don't roll around and are still easy to pull out.

[Bob Cooper]

All great advice. So a couple thoughts.

1) I'm not really sure can assemble to top first and them offset the laminate. Reasons is its 16' long and would have an extra seam. Is it worth it?

2) what kind of roller would one use. A normal paint nap? Clearly I'm thinking foam would melt

3) I was going to put a laminate edge but maybe a 3/4" x 1.5" solid wood would look better. I assume you laminate the top first so that you can see the 3/4" edge of the wood from the top. Right? If so what's the best way to hold it in place? Clamp it front to back before I install the top?

[andy bessette]

Yellow foam roller.

If you want a crisp edge, install the solid edge banding and surface flush before applying the laminate. If you want a bull-nosed edge, apply your solid edging after the laminate.

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/yo-andrew/desk-4_zpswialoua3.jpg

[Warren Lake]

Ill bullnose solid after applying laminate on top, its not the same but its still a big radius bullnose. Ive seen far to much work in the past where after ten years the lacquer is worn off the wood looks like my hands after working on my 25 year old car.

For the spraying comment further back if you were spraying id still use a gravity feed. I get you are talking 2 mm tip and thats fine thats why I used a primer gun but suction guns suck at what they do, they deliver fluid by venture effect and you need more pressure to get thicker material up there, gravity gun it just falls down. I started on the suction guns and had some favourites while it works with higher pressure it wont with low pressures.

When I pressurized the suction cup the fluid is delivered to the tip via pressure so you can run a low air cap pressure not a high one, less overspray and fumes as you put it on. I realize contact doesnt have the same overspray as lacquers. I cant remember now but 15-20 lbs air cap pressure is fine. pressure stuff blows away suction and better than gravity feed. If you were buying a gun to spray contact I would not even consider a suction gun its inferior technolgy. it does nothing better and clean up is worse. Get a gravity feed a cheap one 1.8, 2 2.3 and better still use the 3M PPS bags on it you take the cup off put the plug in it then you have minimum clean up on the gun and dont have to clean a cup you just leave the left over in the bag. Thats if you want to spray.

I dont really get what you are doing you have a 16 foot joined top and you are going to put laminate on it, how is the top supported how strong is it, is it on some support and will not be moved. without knowing that we dont know if you need a backer or not how it will sit how its attached supported etc

[Justin Ludwig]

In my experience, trying to cut laminate on a TS can be a problem. It doesn't want to lie flat and tends to chatter as it is cut, which is bad. Because it is thin, it tends to slide under your fence and hang up as you try to feed it.

You need to cut it slightly oversize so you can trim it later with a flush cut router.

The new water based contact cement is no where as strong and long lasting as the solvent based ones. Be sure to put at least two heavy coats on your substrate before gluing.

+1 - Very very very important steps. Also, what Wayne said in regards to cleaning and denibbing. Prep work is key.

[Bob Cooper]

Here's where it's going

[Warren Wilson]

Hardly a day goes by I don't learn something from these forums -- this is certainly a classy place with no nastiness or patronizing comments (Sawstop conversations excepted :)).

I would like to add +1 on using the track saw for cutting laminate, much easier to handle than on a table saw and a nice clean cut to boot, easy to get the accuracy for theoverhang.

And now -- having seen it here -- I'm going to use the bullnose effect on my next project -- refinishing the counters and table in my 1978 Boler.

(Totally off-topic, but this is my second go-round on the refinishing. Last spring I completed a complete renovation of the interior of our 1979 Boler, new table and counters, new plumbing, custom cabinetry. We spent two nights in it heading to the Arctic then wrote it off against a bridge in the Yukon. Wrote the truck off too. Won't mention who was driving, it just irritates my wife).

[Jerome Stanek]

Laminate is tough on saw blades

[Ole Anderson]

I use an auxiliary fence on my TS that hugs the table so laminate doesn't slide beneath the standard fence. And a finer tooth blade.

[Justin Ludwig]

Laminate is tough on saw blades

How so? Flush trim bits are carbide, so are table saw blades (though I don't use saw to cut my laminate - too flimsy). I just clamp my laminate to the substrate with overhang by 1-2" on 2 sides then flush trim bit off the rest. Use saw horses to hold up the off cut. Once you're ready to glue, you have play all around to flush trim again the final product.

[andy bessette]

You don't need a special fence. I simply lay a narrow piece of door skin next to the fence, to raise the laminate and prevent it going under the fence. Also I often rest a strip of lumber on top of the laminate, close to the blade, to hold it down and prevent chatter. But the track saw is easy.

[Mason Truelove]

have you installed it now? show some output please.

[Ken Combs]

I'm late to the party, but will vote in favor of scoring. In the past I did a lot of laminate and tried lots of methods, table/radial saw, steel scoring knife, carbide scoring tool, router with straight edge, circular saw with guide, a Porter-Cable slitting attachment for there little router. The winner: carbide scoring tool. Just flop it good side down on the floor, grab a straight edge, score and snap.
Most people can do that faster than you can wrestle a 8-12 foot piece to the table saw without even mentioning the hassle trying to keep the part near the blade flat to the table and finding clearance for a run off of 12 feet without sagging..

The above is true for full sheets, but once reduced to narrower pieces, those I do on the table saw using an 80 tooth triple chip blade that I've had for 20-25 years.

Cuts to length are Radial/miter saw for narrow, router/guide for wide pieces.

[Ryan Becklund]

great stuff here, I will be doing my kitchen soon and I am planning on doing my own countertops with a oak reveal 45 deg beveled edge. Thanks!

[Tim Bueler]

All great advice. So a couple thoughts.

1) I'm not really sure can assemble to top first and them offset the laminate. Reasons is its 16' long and would have an extra seam. Is it worth it?

Cut one of your substrates in half and put the extra seam where it won't be seen. 4'-8'-4'. Glue your substrate seams and sand everything flat before applying laminate.

Interesting to see how many use a table saw to cut laminate. Most of my laminate experience has been on a job site, cutting down a 5' x 12' piece of laminate with the only table saw in sight being a 8-1/4" Makita in a Rosseau(sp?) auxiliary table (and let me tell you, that was the cat's meow back in the day:cool:). Scoring is quick, easy, quiet and accurate. No, it doesn't leave perfectly clean edges but those get flush trimmed anyhow. I have cut laminate on a table saw but I wouldn't use a good blade for it. It's just dulls blades too quickly. And all those little shards flying everywhere were sharp. But, as I said earlier, the edges left from scoring are jagged and razor sharp.

[andy bessette]

Laminate is oversize; plywood is usually 96"; the seams don't need to line up.

[Ryan Becklund]

Do you order your laminate someplace online? I notice that some get it from a local countertop maker, but I don't have one nearby (that I know of)

[andy bessette]

I get mine from a nearby lumber yard, Anderson Plywood, who carry the common colors I normally use and orders the rest. They also have a great selection of euro hinges plus a large tool store that carries Festool. :)

[Jerome Stanek]

How so? Flush trim bits are carbide, so are table saw blades (though I don't use saw to cut my laminate - too flimsy). I just clamp my laminate to the substrate with overhang by 1-2" on 2 sides then flush trim bit off the rest. Use saw horses to hold up the off cut. Once you're ready to glue, you have play all around to flush trim again the final product.

Yes I cut a lot of laminate and trim it our carbide bits get dull pretty quick but that is when we are cutting 10 or more sheets at a time. We are a trade show display house and figure about 1 to 2 bits per normal jobs some of the bigger ones take 3 to 4 bits

[Bob Cooper]

one more question.

If I arrange the particleboard such that I have an 8 foot piece in the middle and 2 4 foot pieces either end, I'm concerned that it will be difficult to get the seams of the laminate to be flush. I can put the first piece down by working from the middle out, but the second piece I need to be super careful about starting at the edge and I'm worried that it will be difficult to get the seams to fit right together given the aggressive nature of contact cement

any suggestions. My goal is to do this today

[jack duren]

I'm late to the party, but will vote in favor of scoring. In the past I did a lot of laminate and tried lots of methods, table/radial saw, steel scoring knife, carbide scoring tool, router with straight edge, circular saw with guide, a Porter-Cable slitting attachment for there little router. The winner: carbide scoring tool. Just flop it good side down on the floor, grab a straight edge, score and snap.
Most people can do that faster than you can wrestle a 8-12 foot piece to the table saw without even mentioning the hassle trying to keep the part near the blade flat to the table and finding clearance for a run off of 12 feet without sagging..

The above is true for full sheets, but once reduced to narrower pieces, those I do on the table saw using an 80 tooth triple chip blade that I've had for 20-25 years.

Cuts to length are Radial/miter saw for narrow, router/guide for wide pieces.

For the professional it's easier to cut it on the table saw. But for non experienced a router and a board of needed length works best..............

[Ken Combs]

For the professional it's easier to cut it on the table saw. But for non experienced a router and a board of needed length works best..............
Every shop I've been in or worked with use a carbide scoring tool to reduce or cut full sheets. Much faster that saws, esp 144"x30" material.

[jack duren]

Every shop I've been in or worked with use a carbide scoring tool to reduce or cut full sheets. Much faster that saws, esp 144"x30" material.

You couldn't cut it fast enough to keep up with me on a saw. I've worked with everything made for laminate. But when it comes to keeping several guys busy especially on the edge banding machine, the saw is king.

I wish I could agree, but I've used them...

[Mel Fulks]

You couldn't cut it fast enough to keep up with me on a saw. I've worked with everything made for laminate. But when it comes to keeping several guys busy especially on the edge banding machine, the saw is king.

I wish I could agree, but I've used them...
Yes saw is fastest....but the problem is some will try to handle 12 foot stuff alone. I once saw a guy ruin TWO of them in one day. And it was an expensive pattern. He was the foreman. He did not offer to pay for them. Took the boss several more years to fire him. I'm sure the incompetent are careful with their own stuff and get someone to help,even if it is a neighbor out walking his dog.

[jack duren]

It can happen especially trying to get under 5' to lift it. It can crack..Especially with "non post form"

[Warren Lake]

its easy enough to get a run and have a sheet crack. If I did really large on a saw then I would have support 4 x 8 one person are fine you can sort of roll them. I never had any one way for lam. If I did a top with a variety of angles I might lay the sheet on the top of the job then sort of trace onto the top surface just eye ball it, it was not accurate but I could have taken more timebut didnt matter that much, more overhang just used more care. Id trim it with a 1/4 carbide bit in a laminate trimmer on some of those jobs scoring and breaking was not possible. just did it however suited the job the best. I just logged on and Mels post and Jacks are not here now that I am online some glitch in how this runs have asked no one knows so not sure where this will end up. Tops that worked laminate had a number of specialized trimmers set up, ones that did bank work and hospitals. I always had a number of set ups as well, one trimmed it off almost flush on a bearing, then another that ran without a bearing that left a slight angle before any hand work, then different if it was a solid edge.

If you do a lot of laminate work and have a final trim trimmer say a quarter inch two flute bit, you can trim your lam then grind the end of the bit off and now have a fresh clean bit. this works great, you only use 1/16" or so bit more to make removal amount easier. You grind you have a fresh bit then after a number of grindings you throw away the stub.

Just logged on to check post of Mel and Jack duran are on the second page, logged off Jacks was the last post i could see ??

[Bob Cooper]

Well the hard part is over. Getting the seam to line up wasn't an issue. It experimented on some scraps first. I ended up cutting it on the table saw and that worked well. Dowels worked well. Also I appreciate the advice to split the plywood into three pieces so that no seems lined up. Here's some picture. Once I finish I'll show some more.

Thanks for for all the help

[Ryan Becklund]

wow is that your shop? I thought I liked drawers! You must have a small fortune in drawer slides, mind me asking which ones you used?

[jack duren]

You can get them for about $6 a set.........