Failed Bowl Turning First Attempts

[Steve Mathews]

I think it was member Greg Parrish that posted some pics of his beginning bowl makin', which were superb in my opinion. Below is the opposite end of that spectrum, my first attempt using logs from my neighbor's wood pile. What a disaster! Anything that could go wrong probably did including the finale, a catch that ended my effort. We learn from our mistakes so what did I do wrong? First of all a lot of the cuts were rough. I was using a brand new 1/2" bowl gouge from Thomson's and was freshly sharpened from the factory. Why did the surface come out so rough? As for the catch, I was using the tool like many demonstrating it on YouTube. The bottom of the flute was tilted slightly from vertical and I tried to stay away from the outer portion of the wing. What do you think caused the catch?

I'm thinking about giving up on the free wood concept for the time being and purchase some seasoned bowl blanks. The free stuff I started with ended up having knots and since I'm not experienced enough yet to pick out good wood it may serve me better to buy it for now. Any recommendations on a good online source? What wood would be the most forgiving for starters?

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The pic below clearly shows where the catch took place on the left part of the bowl. Were my cuts too deep causing the torn fibers and ultimately the catch?

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Incidentally, I was able to do better on the outside of the bowl and managed to create a halfway decent dovetail for mounting to a chuck. I made plenty of mistakes then too but none that broke the bowl.

[Mark Greenbaum]

I cannot say "That's never happened to me". My first bowl turning was a t a local club Turn & Learn on a Saturday morning. I had a serious catch like yours, and the bowl (ancient dried walnut) exploded across the shop. Luckily it missed innocent bystanders, and myself.
From looks of the cut you were making, you were not running on the bevel of the tool (hopefully it was a bowl gouge, or you made a major mistake there too). You were cutting with the edge running at a steep angle into the wood, and it HAD to catch. I hope you were not injured. Find a local mentor, and have that person show you how to do the cutting on the inside of the bowl. Watch videos on bowl turning, and make sure you have the right tools, sharp tools, and the right safety equipment on to perform this task. After a few bowls it will get easier, but familiarity can breed contempt (or neglect) so be mindful of the intrinsic dangers of the lathe, and be aware of your position at all times.

Now I can step down from my soapbox.

[Brice Rogers]

Steve,

Things will get better !! You are doing the same things that most wood turners do. Things that I did when I was starting.

Some various thoughts that may add up to be slightly helpful.

1. Consider joining a wood turning club and try to find a mentor
2. Minimize tool post overhang. Get the tool post as close as you can to the thing you're cutting
3. Try to position the gouge tip slightly above center when cutting inside a bowl. That way if it starts to catch the tool will be pulled out rather than dig in deeper
4. Factory sharpened? Ahh... Some manufacturers just shape the tool and rely on the new owner to complete the sharpening.
5. Your tools can never be too sharp.
6. Review the ABCs: Anchor, ride the bevel, and (raise the handle) to start cutting.

You didn't mention if you were doing a pull cut, a push cut or a scraping cut. From all of the tear out shown, either your tool was really dull, you were scraping rather than slicing, or the wood was really punky (rotten).

[John Hart]

There are so many possibilities of wrong doing when you first start out. It's going to be tough to analyze. Although it does look like you may have been in a hurry? The cuts are pretty deep. Perhaps a lighter touch and take very little material off at a time until you feel more comfortable with the environment. I've bought several Thomson gouges and the sharpening they do is excellent.

And for all we know, that piece of wood may have already been cracked.

By the way...free wood is good wood, but if you wanted to pick out some cheap practice stuff that turns easy...run out to HD and pick up a clear 2X6 or 2X8 and cut yourself some practice blanks. Probably end up with some nice pine keepers

Keep us up on your progress!!!

[Steve Mathews]

First of all in response to the above, no I was not hurt. In fact, it didn't even scare me as much as my first catch using a skew. As for the rough cuts I think it's probably correct analysis that there was more scraping being done than slicing. I plan to look into the concept of riding the bevel more, especially having to do with the bowl gouge. I understand and feel more confident doing it with a skew on spindle work, probably because that was my introduction to woodturning.

I tried hooking up with a mentor locally but folks practicing the craft are few and far between here in our rural setting. I'm seriously giving thought to attending one of the classes or seminars in nearby Las Vegas, Phoenix or San Diego. I gave up on woodturning once before out frustration but don't want to repeat that mistake again.

[John Beaver]

Steve, keep with it and keep asking questions here.

Jimmy Clewes lives in Vegas and is one of the best teachers there is. Three days with him would be worth the money in the long run.

Very difficult to tell what you are doing from just a few photos. Could be the wood, lathe speed, tool sharpness, tool angle, taking too big a cut or a myriad other issues.

The two things I would start with (and the things I see most when I teach) are making sure your tools are sharp and riding the bevel.

You mentioned that the tool was freshly sharp from the factory. That only lasts a few minutes. A tool probably needs to be sharpened 4-5 times or more per bowl.

Be careful learning from youtube as there is a lot of bad information out there. Maybe the group here can recommend a few good ones.

Good luck,

[Mike Goetzke]

First of all in response to the above, no I was not hurt. In fact, it didn't even scare me as much as my first catch using a skew. As for the rough cuts I think it's probably correct analysis that there was more scraping being done than slicing. I plan to look into the concept of riding the bevel more, especially having to do with the bowl gouge. I understand and feel more confident doing it with a skew on spindle work, probably because that was my introduction to woodturning.

I tried hooking up with a mentor locally but folks practicing the craft are few and far between here in our rural setting. I'm seriously giving thought to attending one of the classes or seminars in nearby Las Vegas, Phoenix or San Diego. I gave up on woodturning once before out frustration but don't want to repeat that mistake again.

I haven't been turning (or trying to) that long. I was lucky to find a mentor here that I emailed often. Then I joined a club and was fortunate to join when there was a professional giving a demo and a class. Guess what, during the class we just made big hunks of wood into little ones till there was no more. We basically learned the stance, body motion, tool position, and how to freehand sharpen.

I'm no expert but like stated above more info is needed on your attempt. Maybe photos showing your tool position. Also, what speed were you turning? I actually got much better when I was told to increase the speed.

Good Luck,

Mike

[Doug W Swanson]

It's better to blow up free wood than a $20 blank from the store. Plus your free wood is likely a little green still and should be easier to turn than dry wood.

Watc some videos by Bill Grumbine, Richard Raffin or Reed Grey (robo hippy). They can provide some valuable information for you...

[Steve Mathews]

Jimmy Clewes classes must be popular. They're booked until September.

[John K Jordan]

...my first attempt using logs from my neighbor's wood pile. What a disaster!
...Were my cuts too deep causing the torn fibers and ultimately the catch?


Steve,

Keep at it! Don't give up! I'm glad you're not hurt.

I love Doug and his tools but I don't use the factory grinds on any of his tools. The first thing I do is reshape them, these days on the CBN with Tormek or Varigrind jigs. Then I hone for sharpness.

One thing I found very helpful when I was learning to turn and I still do it - I treat almost every cut as a practice cut. Never get in a hurry; I'm probably the slowest woodturner in the country. Light touch, fine shavings. Sometimes I try different things as the wood is cut away - different ways to hold the tool, different tools, lighter and heavier cuts. As I get closer to the desired shape every cut is a "finish" cut, essentially practice for the final finish cut.

Another thing I recommend because it works and because I continue to hear experts who say it works - become proficient at spindle turning before you tackle bowls. Some people who only turn bowls from green wood don't want to hear this or don't agree. The experts basically say the same thing - spindle turning will teach you the fine tool control that will let you turn anything. I heard this directly from Jimmy Clewes, Richard Raffan, and Frank Penta and read the same thing in several books including those by Keith Rowley and Mike Darlow.

Deep cuts can certainly result in a huge catch. With experience, you will learn the feel of the bevel against the wood, how to present the cutting edge, how much force to use. It would be hard to guess without seeing your turning in action, but from my experience teaching many beginners grip the tool too tightly, tense up arms and shoulders, respond stiffly, and use way too much force. You should literally be able to hold the end of the tool handle lightly between thumb and forefinger, rest one finger on the tool at the rest, and make a controlled cut in almost any kind of wood, green or dry. I've seen this done many times and have demonstrated it myself. Too much force and stiffness is a catch waiting to happen! (I've seen that too! At one club meeting I leaned over and told my friend "there's a big catch coming" - the piece was bouncing on the floor a few seconds later!) It may seem hard to believe, but after a while it is actually difficult to make a catch - you will have to work at it!

As for excessive force, I should tell you all about a demo by the worst woodturner I ever watched, turning a platter from a nice, expensive piece of purpleheart. Way too much pressure with the tool: at one point he hollered over the tool screeching "I'M PUSHING AS HARD AS I CAN!" He kept turning even when the gouge was way past dull. He said he'd been doing this so long he never needed to measure then had to recut the recess three times to get it to fit. The finish cuts were horrible but he said it was nothing a some 80 grit power sanding wouldn't take care of. THEN he said he would just eyeball the depth instead of taking the time to measure and proceeded cut through the bottom of the platter. No eye protection. The thing that really made it the worst was he said he'd been turning for 30 years. AND for some of the audience it was obviously their first experience watching an expert woodturner.... Good grief.

If you haven't seen this, watch Richard demonstrate and talk about catches:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOvF5f1phhY

You can see the grind he uses on bowls in this video too.

Best thing, as others have mentioned, try to spend some time with a good woodturner. When I started I learned from books but a mentor would probably have made things go smoother.

JKJ

[Jeffrey J Smith]

Steve - there's an AAW Chapter in Las Vegas, Prescott, Flagstaff and Phoenix - pick the closest and go to a club meeting. It may be a long haul, but it'll be worth it. You can connect with mentors and get in on great demos - all for the pittance they ask for as a membership fee. Much better than watching what could turnout to be bad, dangerous information on YouTube...go to www.woodturner.org (http://www.woodturner.org) and lookup the closest chapter. They'll have a link to their website with all the information on meetings and usually mentors contact numbers.

[Greg Parrish]

Steve, No comment on the snafu below other than keep pushing forward like I'm doing. That said, I'm humbled by your comment on my initial tries as I feel like they are never good enough. Thanks for the kind words.

One secret I can share is I started using Easy Wood Tools carbide tipped tools in addition to my HSS tools. Has simplified my learning curve and helped me enjoy the process more. I'm still using the standard tools but really like the carbide tools for their simplicity of use.




I think it was member Greg Parrish that posted some pics of his beginning bowl makin', which were superb in my opinion. Below is the opposite end of that spectrum, my first attempt using logs from my neighbor's wood pile. What a disaster! Anything that could go wrong probably did including the finale, a catch that ended my effort. We learn from our mistakes so what did I do wrong? First of all a lot of the cuts were rough. I was using a brand new 1/2" bowl gouge from Thomson's and was freshly sharpened from the factory. Why did the surface come out so rough? As for the catch, I was using the tool like many demonstrating it on YouTube. The bottom of the flute was tilted slightly from vertical and I tried to stay away from the outer portion of the wing. What do you think caused the catch?

[Thomas Canfield]

Lots of good comments and I hate to add but.........

I have done some demos using 2x6 lumber to learn to turn bowls. I made a sketch showing 6 profiles to learn different tool control and techniques. The biggest factor is having a sharp tool and then tool control. A dull tool will not cut but rather tear out with a lot of pressure, where a sharp tool will give shavings with minimum pressure if presented properly. You might consider getting help with sharpening. I pick up 2x6 scraps from house construction sites after the rafters have been installed if framed on site. Lots of good clear drops.

[Bill Jobe]

I've got several bowls under my workbench that bear a striking resemblance to yours.
They ain't all Rembrandts, are they.

[William C Rogers]

Steve, glad you didn't have any injuries. I'm by far not very knowable on the use of the bowl gouge, but learning. I can't say what caused your catch, but starting out I had similar experiences. I was using a BB 1/2" bowl gouge and had a catch that bent the gouge. Wood stayed intact. I have since bought Thompson gouges. I believe my main problem was technique how I presented the tool to the wood. I was cutting on the wing too much and not riding the bevel. I also had too much speed. Watched a lot of video using a bowl gouge. I'm better now, but still a ways to go. If you can join a club, most likely the will have mentors. I'm in the process now of getting with someone to help me use the bowl gouge. The great thing about the club is the information shared and variety of the turners interest. Skill levels are a full range from beginner to expert. Highly recommended.

On on the bright side, if you had finished shaping it you would be sanding till Christmas getting rid of the tear-out.

[Reed Gray]

You will never find evidence of bowls like that in my shop.... I heat with a wood stove... I will be doing a video on 'Presentation' which is how to stick a sharp piece of metal into spinning wood so you get clean cuts and not have things blow up and get nasty catches. Brendan Stemp, an Aussie has a 2 part video on bowl catches, and I have a bunch of clips up as well.

robo hippy

[Ryan Mooney]

One trick I use (less now but still on occasion when I'm not sure of a cut) is to turn the lathe OFF, present the tool, rotate the workpiece by hand, and try to get a good shaving. Repeat as needed for the different cut positions and angles.

This helped immensely with my understanding of what the tool was actually doing, as it all mostly happens way to fast to figure out while the lathe is running (at least until you get some basis for it). A nice side effect is that it somewhat dramatically improved my wood carving abilities as well.


I made a sketch showing 6 profiles to learn different tool control and techniques.[QUOTE]
I would enjoy seeing that if you still have it floating around.

[QUOTE=Thomas Canfield;2667121]
The biggest factor is having a sharp tool and then tool control. A dull tool will not cut but rather tear out with a lot of pressure, where a sharp tool will give shavings with minimum pressure if presented properly.

Strongly agree if its taking any effort its time to re-sharpen.

[Greg Parrish]

Steve, if it makes you feel better I destroyed a piece of spalted maple today and had a flyer zoom over my head in the process. I was trying to cut it down thin and the wood was just not up to it. It had a bunch of crumbling sections in it, almost like dry rot. Anyway, once I got to a point that was just too thin I accidentally cut through the edge and had a ring fly off the end, breaking in half with pieces going all over. First time it's happened to me but it's exactly why I use face shields. :)

http://txbonds.zenfolio.com/img/s7/v166/p2232990968-4.jpg

[Michael Mills]

To provide some additional references..
Stuart Batty has some excellent videos at Vimeo, most 12-15 minutes long.
Some one brought up stance which to me is a key first step; Stuart has three.
Lots of other topics may apply as most are fundamentals and not advanced.
https://vimeo.com/woodturning/videos/sort:alphabetical/format:thumbnail

This one is by Lyle Jamieson and shows making a cut on the exterior and using body motion.
Lyle also has lots of other good videos on the different cuts and various general and advanced topics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X06EjQhDROk

This video by Richard Raffan covers some causes of catches; about 12 minutes total. The first half is spindle orientation and the last bowl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOvF5f1phhY

Don't get discouraged. My first ones looked about the same as yours but I was "poking" at the wood, not cutting it.
I did use 2X6 and 2X8 pine to practice. Cut to length, glue up two, and you will have a blank 3" think.

[Prashun Patel]

Keep at it!
Sharpen often.
Keep the phrase 'ride the bevel' in your head. You'll appreciate the wisdom in this statement with each passing year.

Avoid steep walls at first. If your walls are not going from pure vertical to pure horizontal, your tool presentation won't have to change as you go down the inside. With a radical transition, your angle of approach and perhaps the roll of the flute might have to alter.

Beginners IMHO sometimes make the mistake of thinking smaller is easier (even if it IS easier to find). There's a medium sized sweet spot though, that is small enough to hold securely without having to worry about vibration, yet large enough to see and manipulate inside with ease.