Hand Saw Suggestions

[Eric Sarno]

Hi everyone,

I am trying to outfit myself with some good hand tools. I spent a while restoring some old USA made woodworking machines, and while useful, I think I am really kind of enjoying hand tools more! (I guess I should have tried those first).

I would like to start making furniture for my house, from bed frames to tables to desks and of course all manner of boxes, etc. For finer / smaller work I feel good about my options, it seems Lee Valey, Lie Nielsen & many others make saws for dovetails (I have the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw), tenons and such.

I'd like to find a nice saw for cutting bigger stock, especially for ripping as I have no good option for that right now. While I'm at it a crosscut filed saw would be good too! The only hesitation I have about the Lie Nielsen is that the plate is thin and for someone undeveloped at sawing I'd run a higher likelihood of bending it.

The only caveat right now is I'm not looking to search for & restore an old saw at bargain bin prices. At this stage I'd like something good that I can sharpen & maintain. I'd like to get something fairly soon but I can't find many options new, and am at a loss for reputable sellers for restored vintage handsaws.

Any suggestions you have are much appreciated! Thank you

[Phil Mueller]

Highly recommend Pete Taran at vintagesaws.com He's a member here at SMC. Send him a PM or contact him through his website.

[Paul Sidener]

Good vintage saws are not that hard to find. They can cost more sometimes. My full size crosscut saw D-15 Victory saw, and rip saw is a D12. Both are good users. I had to clean up the D-15 a little, but it was no big deal. I have a pair of shorter saws that were made by Wenzloff & Sons. I lucked out getting the two Wenzloff saws, they can be very difficult to get.

One thing to remember about the Lie Nielsen saws, is they are shorter saws. The thin blades will seem thicker, on shorter blades. I have Lie Nielsen back saws. I was worried about the blade thickness, when I bought them. After having them for some years, I wouldn't worry about it. You get use to it, fairly quick.

[lowell holmes]

There are video's online regarding restoring old handsaws. Popular Woodworking have some of them. Look for a Ron Herman video.

I learned to sharpen, repair. and use handsaws from these video's. I recently filed the tooth line smooth on an 8 point crosscut saw, re-tooth, and sharpen the saw.
After I set the teeth, the saw cuts like new with no vices. After putting a new handle on it, it is like a new saw.

You might want to explore this approach. If you don't want to go to this approach, look for a bit better saw that only needs sharpening and setting. If you don't want to buy a saw set, you can set teeth with a screw driver. Google "Hammer set saw teeth"

[Dan Sink]

If you don't want to find, restore and sharpen your own vintage saw, there is a guy that restores and sells saws on eBay that I had a good experience with and he seems pretty popular. I have a D-8 that he did and I love it. But I bought mine years ago when he didn't have such a large following. His saws have gotten considerably more expensive since then as his eBay following has grown. But its worth checking him out. He typically has a couple of saw available, but it appears right now he doesn't. I'd give it a week and he'll probably have one or two up for auction. His eBay seller name is azmica90405.

[Bill McNiel]

Lowell and Dan have both given you solid advice, with the possible exception of setting the teeth with a screwdriver. Search for "handsaws" here and you will find a plethora of advice on makers, sizes and types of handsaws.

[lowell holmes]

Lowell and Dan have both given you solid advice, with the possible exception of setting the teeth with a screwdriver. Search for "handsaws" here and you will find a plethora of advice on makers, sizes and types of handsaws.

Frank Klauz talks about setting teeth with a screwdriver. I did not make that up.:)
http://woodlooking.blogspot.com/2010/11/sharpening-frank-klausz.html

[Pete Taran]

I guess you could use a dull finishing nail and a rock from the drive way as well. I know Frank personally, and while he may have said this at one point, I can assure you having visited his shop, he uses a saw set just like the rest of us.

[lowell holmes]

Pete,
I've set teeth on a fine tooth saw with a screwdriver. Don't ridicule it, it works. I would never set an eight point cross cut saw with a screw driver.

When setting up a fine tooth dovetail saw, the crosscut teeth need to be made to cut rip. After reshaping and sharpening the teeth, they will need to be set.
A small screwdriver inserted between every other set of teeth and gently twisting works great. If you haven't tried it, you should.

I learned this technique from Klausz video. It is in the first minute of his Video "Hand Tools. Maybe you should visit with Frank.

[Pete Taran]

Lowell,

Having made several thousand dovetail saws, I'm pretty familiar with the process. Hammer setting was how they set saws in the really old days, 1700s to mid 1800s. If the process was so fantastic and trouble free, there would not be literally millions of saw sets floating around the world. Said another way, hammer setting does work, just like riding a horse and buggy works if you don't have a car to get from point a to point b. To offer up that kind of advise to someone who has already stated they are not interested in doctoring saws serves little purpose if you ask me.

As to Frank, when I started making dovetail saws I met him at a show and he placed an order for a dovetail saw for every employee in his shop. Since it was such a high visibility order, I traveled to Pluckemin (sp?) NJ to deliver them and even take part in his holiday celebration. Attached are some photos I just took of a couple of scraps he dovetailed on the spot with one of the saws we had just delivered. The Patrick was my partner at the time, Patrick Leach. As part of that process, we talked about saws and saw maintenance. He showed me the saw sets that he liked, and those he didn't like. I don't recall any talk of screwdriver setting. He is a big fan of doing the best you have with what you have. He emigrated from Hungary when the Soviets took over in the 1950s, so I'm sure he did this out of necessity.

355566355567

[lowell holmes]

Pete, You certainly are more knowledgeable than I am concerning these things. I did not realize that you are a saw maker.

I am a garage woodworker that does it as a hobby. I really don't take a different point of view from you.

I retooth, sharpen and use my own saws. I do it just because I can. As a matter of record, I have 6 saw sets, a Taintor, a Somax, and four Stanleys. The first I inherited from my father and old Stanley.
I do screwdriver set extremely fine tooth dove tail saws. I have never taken to hammer setting saw teeth.

I just recently made a usable 8pt cross cut saw out of a rust bucket broken handle saw. It had a damaged saw plate, so I made a "tool box" saw out of it.

[Pete Taran]

Lowell,

Saw maker might be a strong word these days. I did consider myself one once, and have lately been thinking of becoming one again, but am mostly in it like you as a hobby. Spend more time studying saws and their history now that anything.

I bet that Somax set doesn't get a lot of use. Crappiest set ever made in my opinion.

[David Eisenhauer]

Pete, with an apology to Eric, which set do you prefer? And do you prefer a different set for what I call joinery saws (12-13 ppi or smaller toothed?) as opposed to what I call carpentry saws (e.g. Disston, etc 5-6, 8-10 ppi). I ask because I am at the spot where I need to take up setting now that I can scratch around on saw teeth with a file and improve the sharp some. I have one saw that I believe needs re setting and don't have a saw set.

[lowell holmes]

I use the Stanley 42x saw set more than others. Interesting enough, I bought the Somax because Lie Nielsen recommended it at that time.
It's not a real bad set in that it does set the teeth easy enough. It is not as pleasing to use as the Stanley 42x.

The Taintor was purchased (used) because it was popular with carpenters. I prefer the 42x.

[Pete Taran]

I agree with Lowell, I've long extolled the virtues of the 42X. It's the only vintage set I'm aware of that clamps the saw blade while setting the teeth. In my experience, the standard plunger will set teeth down to 13 ppi. I have a second one that I ground the plunger narrower on to set teeth down to 16 or even 17 ppi if you have a saw with teeth that fine.

Another set which I have started using for larger tooth saws in the 4-8 ppi range is the Stanley 42. It's a bigger set than the 42X and doesn't have the clamping feature, but it does have a shelf that aligns with the saw blade. As long as you are careful to keep that shelf touching the saw plate when you set the teeth, you will get very repeatable results.

Both are getting harder to find, but the 42 is more common these days.

[Ron Bontz]

Interesting thread.
I wish I had as much knowledge of the saw making trade as Pete, but I am afraid I rarely spend much time reading. From what I have read and seen first hand tells me hammer setting is not so great as touted. On the other hand the newer CNC type machines may very well do an excellent job. CNC sharpened saws are hard to compete with, until, of course, you have to sharpen them for the first time. Then it is back to square one.
As far as saw sets go. I have a bunch. The Somax anvils are garbage, and should be replaced with one made out of A2 or similar. The original Eclipse are ok, but tend to over set. The 42x is one of my favorites but the darn handle tends to get in the way on smaller saws. Or rather the vise gets in the way. All things have their down side. I know we live in a time when we want things right now, but taking ones time to search out a good quality vintage saw yields it's rewards in the end. Scope out the different wood working forums and yes, that blasted Bay. There is also a guy who "hangs out" on another forum that refurbishes saws as well. Rocky Mountain saw works. Or something like that. Best of luck in your search.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Bad axe sometimes has vintage saws for sale.

[lowell holmes]

I used my 42x on a saw kit I bought from Bontz. I made a nice oversize tenon saw.
Ron's saw kits are very good. If you are interested, you should contact him.

[Eric Sarno]

Thank you all for the replies! Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy restorations (though I've only done mostly power tools), but I almost enjoy them too much. I spend more time doing that and acquiring tools than the woodworking! This is why I'd like something that is ready to go without having to spend the time hunting for & restoring right now, as I'd really like to get some wood projects done. I will definitely follow up with vintagesaws as well as another member who sent me a private message.

Fun update - I did just take a gamble on a 6ppi rip saw online for $50. It says it's been tuned, so we will see! However I would still like a good crosscut and like I said will be following up with the suggestions I got. I definitely understand that I'll have to pay for someone else's time & skill in restoring / fixing up an old saw.

I do also have an old disston backsaw that I bought with a miter box for $20, but the teeth needed to be filed down. So it has been sitting until I am set up to learn how to (and actually just do it) cut the teeth. I do have a 42x saw set that I got on ebay as well. Like I said, too much tool acquiring... not enough woodworking.

[Don Slaughter]

Eric, I think you may be starting to slide...down the slope many of us have traveled. You may find that 'getting wood projects done' has much more potential for gratification than you thought. When I was about where you are in finding/using handsaws...I happened to stop at a garage sale....didn't see any tools so started to leave & guy says "What're you looking for?" I said woodworking stuff... so he took me in the garage where I found a saw laying on a bench. Bought it for $5....turned out to be a 1940's D-23. Since then I've bought several high priced new saws and many swap meet saws....learned to restore and sharpen them (Thanks Pete!) and really enjoy every chance I get to use any one of them....but my "Go To" saw is that D-23. Best saw in my shop. First time I sharpened & set it...lasted about 5 years before I had to 'touch it up'. It is a REAL joy to use a well tuned saw. The projects you make will be exponentially more gratifying!
Good luck with your sawing. BTW....don't take it lightly that Pete Taran responded to your request. Few folks are more revered IMHO and he has given me the confidence to share what I learned from him (and others) with friends. I teach restoring/sharpening saws at our local woodworking association....we have a mentoring program. Don't know where you are but you might investigate to locate other woodworkers in your area...as you can see...woodworkers like to share & learn from peers.

[lowell holmes]

A tip on using the 42x saw set.
I filed the plunger width on one of my 42-X saw sets. It allows me to set the teeth on fine tooth saws.
It is not difficult to do.

Also, check out the Ron Herman video, "Sharpen your Handsaw". He sheds some light on this subject.

[Prashun Patel]

This is why I joined SMC. Great insight! Enjoyed this thread.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Eric,

It sounds like you are not opposed to buying a good used saw and doing at least some rehab. For that reason I decided to add my two bits (usually my thoughts are probably worth less than that), and if my thoughts are way to basic I do apologize, as I do not mean to offend by writing stuff that you learned long ago. That said, I would add the following thoughts.

I like older Disston D-8s, and the ones made in the first 1/3rd of the 1900s are usually pretty good. (If you type in "Disston type study" in a search, lots of stuff on the etch, medallions, etc. will come up to help date the Disston saws.) That said, if a used saw looks well made and carefully designed, with attention to details like making the handle well rounded where you grip it, so it is comfortable to use for quite a while without hand discomfort, is in good shape and has a tooth pattern I think I need, etc. and the price is really right, I will buy other brands. (That's why I have way too many handsaws.)

There are a lot of good brands besides Disston, but you see lots of old Disstons, and since I know more about them than other brands buying a Disston is low risk deal for me, so I prefer Disston for that reason.

Again, I like Disston D-8s. The #12s D-12s, etc., and some of there other premium Disston saws, are better than D-8s, and have thinner blades than the D-8s. (They are also usually a LOT LOT more pricy if the seller knows what he has.) However, my carpentry history is coming out here, and the D-8s are good tough professional grade saws, made with good steel, and the added saw plate thickness makes them take accidental abuse well without denting or getting bends. They were not the very top of the line for Disston, but they were still excellent saws made for professional carpenters, cabinet makers, and the better handymen who bought them back in the day of hand saws. You will not be handicapped by having a D-8. You work a little harder than with the more premium thinner saws like the #12, (I only have a couple of premium saws) but not that much harder. Also, you don't do that much sawing when you are cutting dimension lumber to rough size for something like furniture anyway.

I have WAY too many hand saws. Fortunately I gave one to a son-in-law earlier this year, rip saw...he needed one and didn't have a rip saw. We worked several hours restoring it to make it look better, and a smoothed and polished rust free saw drags less and cuts much easier. We also sharpened it. We picked through several of my non-restored saws, and picked out a pretty good one I think. Also, a polished saw blade with a good shine helps you cut truer by being able to see the reflection of the lumber in the blade, by watching the reflection and keeping this square this helps you cut squarely.

There is a lot of information on this bulletin board on restoring hand saws if you do a search in the box in the upper right hand corner at the top of this page. (You have to scroll to the top.)

In short I generally work over the handle if it needs it, cleaning and doing whatever sanding is needed to remove burs, old finish,splinters, remove sharp corners, etc. I then usually use spray lacquer if in a hurry, or brush apply polyurethane if I am not in a hurry. The poly U is tough stuff and stands up well on tool handles in my experience.

Next, I work on the saw plate (again this is After I have removed the handle and worked it over), you can work on the other stuff while the handle is drying. I first clean up the saw plate with a rust color Scotch brite, followed by very light but repeated cleaning with a fine wire steel brush to go after any pits to remove all possible corrosion. This if followed by lengthwise sanding with #320 or so carborundum sand paper, being careful to sand only lengthwise with the saw plate....no sanding at 90 degrees to the length of the plate or even at 45 degree angles, and may even follow this with 400 grit. Finally I finish up with metal polish, and work at this metal polishing fairly diligently. I then metal polish the saw nuts.

One thing I do when working on the saw plate is clamp a soft piece of thin soft piece of pine or redwood stock over the very edge of the teeth, so the teeth do not tear up the Scotch Brite pad or sandpaper.

Lastly I sharpen the saw.

As to picking out a used saw I look for a few things: 1. you want one that is dead arrow straight with no dents or bends, 2. You do not want any pitting....a LIGHT surface rust is OK if it can be cleaned off leaving a good surface with VERY minimal pitting, 3. I want a handle that is comfortable to use for extended time periods...no sharp edges and an oval shape where you grip, if possible, and finally 4., I want a good handle that can be restored, meaning no broken off horns, no splits or chunks missing, etc.

You want a saw that can be restored easily, don't make life harder for yourself by saving a few bucks but adding many hours to the restoration job. (I did that sort of thing when I was young and had no money...now I pass on the saw and wait until one comes up that is fairly easy to restore.) There are enough of them out there that you can be somewhat picky and buy a reasonable saw that is at a reasonable price. Make your life easier not harder.

Finally, you will see a lot of 26 inch 8 point crosscut hand saws, because that is the main one that was used by carpenters, and a lot of home owners bought them too. I see more of that type than all other types combined it seems. An easy conversion to a finish rip saw is to re-sharpen the 8 point cross cut to an 8 point rip. (I like a 7 point rip a lot for finish ripping, but want to re-sharpen an 8 point crosscut to and 8 point rip myself some of these times.)

As to which saws I prefer, I like a 26" 8 point cross cut saw for framing and other rough cut carpentry tasks, and a 10 or preferably a 12 point crosscut for finish crosscutting. As for rip saws, I would prefer a thumb grip handle 28" 5 point for most ripping and a 7 point rip for finish ripping. Here again, the point sizes are not hard and fast numbers and something close to those point sizes are fine.

The 28" thumb grip saws are hard to come by, and can be more expensive, so my rip saws are all 26", except for maybe 1 of them (but it has not yet been restored.) My carpentry history is showing up here, as guys like Schwarz like shorter saws, maybe 24" or even 22" for fine woodworking, but I have used standard length carpentry type saws my whole life, and so they just feel right to me. I do have shorter saws, and they work just fine, even my 16" saws that I bought for my grandkids to use when they are here. I used one just to give it a try after restoring it and was extremely pleasantly surprised how quickly and well it cut, so I think that a 24" or even a 22" would be just fine also. (Again I like 26" saws with a wide blade, but again this is just a personal preference based on years of using one that size.)

If you get an old Disston (or some other brand having good steel) that is straight, on the order of 85 or years old or older, having only a very light surface rust or better yet a smooth patina, and a handle that is not messed up, you can restore it in just a few hours and have a saw that will give great service for many many years. I use almost no power tools when restoring a saw, so if you use a power buffer, etc. it can go even quicker. (I use hand tools, etc. to restore saws, planes, etc., because you can do more damage in less time with power tools if you mess up, with hand tools it is easier to avoid messing up what you are working at restoring.)

Again, fairly simple stuff above, and am not meaning to offend by insulting a persons intelligence by my 25 cents worth of opinions here.

Good luck with the saw chase.

Stew

[Eric Sarno]

Stew, thank you so much! That is a great read. I love the tip about seeing the reflection in the blade, I would have never thought of that. Also thank you for sharing your knowledge & explanation of your preferences, all good stuff to know.

Just to give an update on this thread - I definitely plan on following up more with Pete. He has given me some great advice on what to go towards and I will be checking out his website and doing some more reading.

Just to give an update, here are the saws I now have. The top one is an Atkins that I won online the day after opening this thread. It has already been sharpened by the seller and it cuts great, however I do not! I definitely need to watch the 'sawing secrets' video again so I can learn to saw in a straight line. I think at $52 shipped it was a good buy. The middle saw is one I bought a long time ago with an old miter box for $20. The teeth were quite bad so I filed the whole plate down. I will need to get a vise & small hacksaw so that I can learn how to recut the teeth. Last is the Lie Nielsen I got as a christmas gift that I have not used yet, but am definitely exited to!

[Phil Mueller]

Eric, in regards to the saw that you filed down, you can find sawtooth spacing templates at Blackburntools. Go to the "Articles and Reference" tab and scroll down a bit.

I don't use a hacksaw to mark when I retooth, I just use a triangular file...which you'll need anyway.

I think you did good on the Atkins, should serve you well.

[Stew Denton]

Eric,

+1 on what Phil wrote. Looks like you have some excellent users, Atkins is a good brand in my view, and I too think that saw should serve you well. In addition, I really like the back saws. Let the rest of us know how the re-toothing of the back saw goes.

Stew