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Jim Barstow
03-05-2017, 8:16 PM
I've built lots of furniture and used lots of dovetails. I'm also usually very careful about wood movement and never had a problem or actually even seen much of it. (My furniture doesn't see much extremes in humidity.)

That said, I'm trying something different which is challenging both conventional use of dovetails and risks wood movement problems. I'm willing to make this an experiment but thought I would submit the issue for the "cloud's opinion".

The project is a modern writing desk made out of cherry:

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The construction is a basic box using dovetails. The writing surface in the middle is joined with a sliding dovetail. Normally, I would orient the grain so it runs around the circumference of the box so any would movement would be similar and in the same direction.

HOWEVER, the design looks much better if the grain of the side pieces run front to back. This makes the dovetails end grain to long grain which is weaker and risks wood movement problems. (I may strengthen the end grain tails with decorative inserts which I think will solve the weakness problem.)

I can deal with the writing surface movement problem by just glueing one end and letting the other move.

The problem is the dovetails since the tails may move but not the pins. That said, I'm tempted to just go for it. The sides would look strange with vertical grain. The wood I'm using is dry and very stable. (Not a hint of movement after milling.) Since I've never ever had a problem with wood movement I'm tempted to roll the dice and try this. I've constructed the basic box and it looks really nice with the grain oriented this way.

Jamie Buxton
03-05-2017, 8:35 PM
Structurally, the dovetails you're considering are a bad idea. You get the problem of wood movement between the sides and the top/bottom. You also get short pieces of wood with the grain running across the grain, just begging to break if the wood movement happens.

Visually, IMHO, running the grain vertically on the sides looks just right. Running it front-to-back looks weird.

Jerry Miner
03-05-2017, 10:05 PM
I'm with Jamie on this. Vertical orientation of the grain on the sides would look "right" as opposed to side-grain to end-grain dovetails.

What about sliding dovetails glued only in the front?

If you're committed to this, please keep us posted--report back in a year with before and after photos.

Jim Barstow
03-05-2017, 11:28 PM
If you're committed to this, please keep us posted--report back in a year with before and after photos.

In spite of breaking a cardinal rule of woodworking, I'm tempted to try it to see if it really results in a problem. I have an engineering solution to the weakened joint problem so I'm not worried about that. It's the wood movement issue that concerns me. As a scientist, my hypothesis would be that if you start with dry, stable wood and the furniture is kept out of the extremes of humidity (tropics vs desert) that wood movement is minimal. Wrong or right, I'll learn something.

Brian Holcombe
03-06-2017, 12:09 AM
Jim, take the excellent advice that has been given above. The side grain dovetails are doomed to failure from wood movement and are structurally irresponsible as they create sections of 'short grain'. One of my friends refers to them as 'zipper joints' as they function very similarly.

Jim Barstow
03-06-2017, 12:18 AM
Jim, take the excellent advice that has been given above. The side grain dovetails are doomed to failure from wood movement and are structurally irresponsible as they create sections of 'short grain'. One of my friends refers to them as 'zipper joints' as they function very similarly.

I'm only worried about movement not strength since I've come up with a way to strengthen them by adding internal structure across the grain. I've used this technique before when I wanted grain to run counter to what prudent design would dictate. Never had a failure.

Kevin Jenness
03-06-2017, 2:25 AM
"Never had a failure"

Yet.

Dave Richards
03-06-2017, 7:06 AM
If I understand correctly, your intent is to use sliding dovetails like this (https://flic.kr/p/Rt7cfH). Is that right? While I agree with the others that aesthetically the grain on the sides should be vertical, you could certainly make it horizontal. Glue the top into the dovetails only for the front inch or two. Keep in mind there is no long grain to long grain joint so the glue joint won't be especially strong. You could use epoxy as the glue to get a mechanical connection which would add strength.

What direction are you planning the grain to run on the vertical divider between the drawers and to the right of the upper drawer. They should probably match the sides which means you'll need to do something to allow movement there. Also, how do you intend to support the lower drawers? Are you planning a bottom on the case? Will it be structural?

If you make the grain run vertically on the sides and the dividers, you can use less fussy joinery such as a simple tongue in a dado which can be glued over its entire length. It makes the undercarriage for the drawers easier to build, too.