Felder AD951 J/P, Thoughts from users

[Brian Holcombe]

Curious to hear from people who own or otherwise use this machine.

Do you like the function of the integral guard?

Do you like the build quality of the machine?

Four blade or 'silent cutter'?

Any nit picks?

Would you buy again?

Am I missing something or does SCM also have a 20" wide (520mm) J/P?

Thank you
Brian

[David T gray]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244748-SCM-520-Nova-or-Felder-AD951

[Erik Loza]

...does SCM also have a 20" wide (520mm) J/P?...

Closest, apples-to-apples, would be the Minimax FS52 Elite-S, which is available with Tersa or with Xylent (their proprietary spiral head)...

https://www.scmgroup.com/en/products/classical-machines.c884/planer-thicknessers-jointer-planers.893/fs-52-elite-s.777

Best of luck in your search.

Erik

[John Seybold]

I have the AD 741, which is pretty similar to the 951, and a very good machine. You can read my review of it here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?230574-Felder-AD-741-Jointer-Planer-Review).

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Eric, glad to know that I am not loosing my mind. My preference is for SCM but I do like the looks of the fence on Felder, it seems to bridge gap between something like what Martin offers and the more typical Euro guard which requires setting the height.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have the 941. 16" verison of the 951.

I like the guard/fence on the machine quite a bit. I also love the silent cutter. Machine buid quality is adequate but not overbuilt. I have been running my machine anyhere from 2-5 hours a day 2-4 hours at a time and i find myself thinking man if i keep getting this type of work requiring this much use of this machine or more when will the machine fail me. It just does not seem robust enough to handle hours upon hours of use day after day for years on end. It does seem built well enough to handle many years moderate hobby use.

If i had it to do again i would go separates regardless of my limited space. I would then be looking at accpeting spending $15-25K per machine as apposed to the $11-13 of the Felder combos. I would also be looking at either Martin L Invincible or Martin. I may consider the Martin combo made my Griggrio i think?

The Minimax elite S combo looks nice. I have just heard horror stories about small shops and scm. If you use your machine and i know you will you will need parts or service at some point. I have had my own nightmares with Felder. Many seem happy with them but in my experiece they pay good lip service if its a easy fix or solution. If its a big problem they try and pass the buck. Start digging and you will find the horror stories of out of flat Felder tables and terrible service techs.

You will also find many fans of Felder. Ultimately you kinda have to sort through the best of the worst and make your own decision as machinery manufactuers seem like they run a real rackey if you ask me. Its kinda like buying a car that's a lemmon. You had better hope you purchased from a good dealer as you are never getting to GMC yourself.

If my choice is between My experience with felder and SCMI i have to choose SCMI as fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. SCMI would also feel like a gamble. The pipe dream is open the wallet for a Martin and they take good care of their clients. For all i know its nothing more than a pipe dream. If not i would pay the big ticket price for piece of mind anyday after my experience with Felder.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Patrick, appreciate your response. I've been leaning toward heavier and better built machines going with that same logic. That said, I've seen true hobby-shop level machines which are worked, and I mean worked!

SCM it is then, I'll guide my thinking in that direction. I'd certainly love Martin machines, but I if I start planning on buying them it will put my time frame pretty far out there, something I'd like not to do if I can avoid it, also they're 3 phase and to my understanding cannot be ordered in single phase, so I would also need a serious phase converter (phase perfect)....this all starts to become a bit heavy duty for a garage shop.

I'd prefer separates to a single machine as well, but I can't justify the added expense. Separates have so many nice advantages, but at nearly twice the price... Love to have a jointer with 10' long tables, like that of the L'invincible.

[Patrick Walsh]

Brian,

It sounds like you pretty much have your mind made up. Or rather i should say you have identified your criteria and made your decisions accordingly. Understandably so as few of us can just have whatever we want.

Your criteria is much as mine was when i was purchasing my combo or AD941. At the time i was pretty taken by felder machines under the impression that a high end Felder machine was pretty much a comercial i dustrial machine. With that assumption my next criteria was overall cost and three phase vrs single factored into the total cost to get up amd running. I was looking at another $5K with my then electrical service to get up and running with a three phase machine.

As it sounds it is for you it was also for me in that the more i spent the longer i waited as i was insistant I would pay for the machine in full at the time of purchase.

So to summerise i did not want to go three phase and i did not want to wait another eight months while i saved another 12K. I was also pretty convinced Felder played in the same pond as SCMI Martin and all the other commercial machinery manufactuers. I now understand Felder is high end hobby equipment.

I want to make clear you may very well enjoy a AD951 if all goes well. If you feel compfortable tweeking and adjusting the machine yourself upon arrival you may be ok. If the machine shows up as can be common with Felder machines "bad Castings" you may find yourself in for the fight of your lifetime. On the other hand this same senerio could be had with any manufacturer i just happen to know that Felder puts on a good show with regard to fixing costly problems. On the flip side if its something they can throw short money at and have a happy customer they seem more motivated then most.

The last thing i will offer is this. After my ordeal with Felder 4/-5 months till it all got worked out. I still have a machine with hollows and rounds and a cross threaded stripped bolt on one of my priszm guides. At the time and still now i would had done anything to have just waited another eight months till i could afford a machine that potentialy did not come with such problems. For instance at the time i was under the impression with the purchase of a new Martin machine came the setup of the machine by a Martin employee or dealer tech. This seemed of immense value to me as how could they possibly leave me with a lemmon. On the other hand if Martin or any companies factory tollerance specs are anything like Fleder you could also be screwed in the end so you know the whole machine purchase thing can be like christmas morning or like the worst freaking nightmare you could ever imagine.

I will point out at the time of my purchase all i had was a Dewalt lunchbox planer and a 6" Yates jointer and i was going out of my mind. I was also not at the time using my machines for work purposes. My point is i could had waited an additional time to save for higher quality machine but was both convinced Felder made a exceptional machine and sadly on my prt impatient thinking i had to have the machines asap.

Now you on the other hand i believe do what you do for a living and to do seem fully capable of doing it without a jointer or planer. I would say if you made it this long the way you have save for another bit of time for the Phase Perfect, make that the goal. Get it setup payed for then move on to the machine purchase, i wish i had! For instance at the time i was convineced this would be the largest machine to ever enter my shop. Now three years later i am looking at adding a Martin slidding table saw and martin shaper to my shop both of wich are three phase only. Even the high end Felder Format stuff is all three phase. The maybe even a widebelt?

Anyway rant over but i really cant stress enough my belief that if you are a woodworker and not hobbyiest "and you are a woodworker" get as much machine as you can squeez out of yourself.

And just to be clear when impurchased my AD941 i also purchased a RL125. I spend almost 20K. That is a huge lump of money to me as i am a carpenter afterall. At the time i think i was making $57K a year. I still am for the most part. So i get the implications of talking SCMI Invincible this and Martin that. At the end of the day though regret is a sob..

[Brian Holcombe]

My mind is not made up by any means, but yes I do have criteria. I fear that my own line of logic, which is basically to buy the best and not settle, may be a disservice in this scenario where I have very limited space so I am weighing all reasonable options.

I do appreciate your inputs, they are quite valuable in that you would like to save me some grief. I've had a great experience with SCM minimax so far, so I am highly considering their machines, and given your experience in no longer considering Felder.

If I considered jointer alone, as it us the more important of the two machines for me, A Martin T54 and phase perfect will set me back about 27-30k, so double to nearly triple depending on the SCM I end up considering and it looks like L'Invincible does have the better guard system and is still 5k less than Martin..., and then I need to buy a planer after, which I'm certain will incur similar logic and cost me )10k~.

So at the end of it all I will still need to explain to my wife why this whole venture cost me $40-50k when it should have been in the range of 15-20k.

[David Kumm]

or buy a used jointer for 4-5K and use the savings for the Phase Perfect. Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

Yup,

Those are the exact same numbers i was playing with and exactly the logic i was using. And exactly how i came to my decision.

Sadly for me my personal expectation of perfection will now roll over into future machine purchases due to my first big machinery buying experience with Felder.

Had all gone well with felder in all honesty i would probably be happy to the adhear to the theory or principle that like you my personal desire for perfection might not be best realised in my machinery purchases.

I will say this, had my machine arrived and needed a simple $500 tech visit to adjust eand get working properly i would had been very very satisfied with my machine.

If Felder did a better job with their castings, did not deliver machines with loose, missing or cross threaded parts and had service techs as competent as their CEO "who is a gem" other than not just dragging the lemmon they sold me out of my shop after resolve could not brought to the issue after and the third service visit and maybe 25-30 hrs i think felder would have a great product to meet the market that both you and i fall into. With the above sexperience stated you kinda are left feeling like i could have just purchased a Jet or Grizzly and maybe done just as well or better?

I would not rule Felder out as what i am trying to say is i rather like my Felder machines, i have four. I would like my combo machine much more if it had flat tables and did not have that cross threaded bolt. All in all it works decently well and i suppose could be worse. At least i can use the darn thing eb
ven if it is picky as to what part of the tables.





My mind is not made up by any means, but yes I do have criteria. I fear that my own line of logic, which is basically to buy the best and not settle, may be a disservice in this scenario where I have very limited space so I am weighing all reasonable options.

I do appreciate your inputs, they are quite valuable in that you would like to save me some grief. I've had a great experience with SCM minimax so far, so I am highly considering their machines, and given your experience in no longer considering Felder.

If I considered jointer alone, as it us the more important of the two machines for me, A Martin T54 and phase perfect will set me back about 27-30k, so double to nearly triple depending on the SCM I end up considering and it looks like L'Invincible does have the better guard system and is still 5k less than Martin..., and then I need to buy a planer after, which I'm certain will incur similar logic and cost me )10k~.

So at the end of it all I will still need to explain to my wife why this whole venture cost me $40-50k when it should have been in the range of 15-20k.

[Andrew Hughes]

I wasn't going to comment.I can no longer bite my tongue I've seen Brian's work and I just think a helical head is wrong for a jointer.The carbide insert are not even close to sharp as good Hss steel.
Unless you plan on using wood with knots highly figured reversing grain.Or barn wood with plenty of grit Hss knives that are indexed are pro.Plus you will have several choices of steel to choose from.
I know you like sharp;)
you can do very fine work with small parts on a straight knife with good steel knives all in the same cutting circle.Its just wonderful.

[Patrick Walsh]

This is a vaiable option. I dont know where i was looking but i noticed. Near new if not new SCMI L Invinible Jointer somewhere recently for like $7-9K. As a result of my experience with my AD941 i am always suspect of a good deal on a jointer. On the other hand i have seena number of very high end machines both jointers and planer selling us d and in excelent condition that i could had purchased and done the phase perfect and seprates and been out the door for between $20-25K yes that was $5-10K above my budget at the time but a far cry form the new Marting phase perfect option of $50-60K.


Dave brings up a good point and iwould also suggest putting as much effort into finding dealers of high end used equiptment as you are into what new Equipmentment you would like.

I bet you can get the Scmi martin equivalent in seperates lightly used and the phase perfect for maybe $5k more than a new Felder or Scmi hobby type machine. You should talk to the guy whom blog i metioned and you said you know from western Mass, seems he knows his machines.


or buy a used jointer for 4-5K and use the savings for the Phase Perfect. Dave

[David Kumm]

I'd add that a used Oliver like Darcy just posted, or Porter, or Northfield, if condition is good, is every bit as good as a newer Euro jointer save Martin- maybe even Martin. A used Kolle is every bit as sweet as a Martin. Jointers are simple. It is all about the quality of the cast iron, the balance and diameter of the head, and the grinding ( preferably planing ) of the bed. There are machines where new is better but jointers are not among them. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

And the old jointers will make a much deeper cut, in many cases 1 inch compared to 3/8 for the new stuff.

[Brian Holcombe]

The used market is something to consider, if I'm going to move to separate machines. I'd likely look for a nearly new machine rather than old iron.

This may seem like a rediculous hangup but I would like have a good guard or the ability to put on a good euro guard. So add that to the expense of a used machine unless I manage to purchase a used Martin or L'invincible machine.

Andrew, Thanks for your thoughts on that, I go back and forth between the two pretty regularly so safe to say that is yet another area where I am undecided.

[David Kumm]

Look at the guard on the old Zefam, Unitronix, EMA, etc Polish jointers. Looks like a pork chop but segmented so it falls off the edge of the table. I think they are the handiest guards made. The jointers are direct competitors to the Martin, maybe more heavily built and cheap in comparison. dave

[Brian Holcombe]

I've seen the segmented pork chop, I believe it is also something Martin either offers or offered in the past. Thanks for your insights, much appreciated.

[Steven Wayne]

Brian,

What did you end up doing?

[Chris Parks]

I saw one of these returned to Felder recently by a very disappointed owner as they (Felder) could not stop the out feed table dropping a smidgen during use. I often wonder what happens to machines with a major problem that can't be fixed by the manufacturer?

[Jim Becker]

Brian,

What did you end up doing?

Brian has an SCM/MiniMax 16" J/P

[Brian Holcombe]

As Jim mentioned, I ended up with an FS41ES. Very happy with it, just went over everything with a fine tooth comb after running 4 pieces of 16/4 * 9" wide by 10' white ash over it and then thickness planed to size.

Everything still in place, holding settings.

[Steven Wayne]

Did you do any sort of review? Are you happy with the "S" features?

[Brian Holcombe]

Didn’t do a review, but I can do a short video. What do you want to see in particular.

[Rod Sheridan]

I saw one of these returned to Felder recently by a very disappointed owner as they (Felder) could not stop the out feed table dropping a smidgen during use. I often wonder what happens to machines with a major problem that can't be fixed by the manufacturer?

We scrap it..........Rod.

[johnny means]

I had the AD751 for a number of years. It had the full compliment of electronics and was a pleasure to use. I never once had any adjustment issues, but did have an electronic issue that was caused by my own faulty wiring. One day when I decide to set up my "kids are done with college" shop, I don't hesitate to go with the Felder line up.

[Jason Ramey]

Brian,

It sounds like you pretty much have your mind made up. Or rather i should say you have identified your criteria and made your decisions accordingly. Understandably so as few of us can just have whatever we want.

Your criteria is much as mine was when i was purchasing my combo or AD941. At the time i was pretty taken by felder machines under the impression that a high end Felder machine was pretty much a comercial i dustrial machine. With that assumption my next criteria was overall cost and three phase vrs single factored into the total cost to get up amd running. I was looking at another $5K with my then electrical service to get up and running with a three phase machine.

As it sounds it is for you it was also for me in that the more i spent the longer i waited as i was insistant I would pay for the machine in full at the time of purchase.

So to summerise i did not want to go three phase and i did not want to wait another eight months while i saved another 12K. I was also pretty convinced Felder played in the same pond as SCMI Martin and all the other commercial machinery manufactuers. I now understand Felder is high end hobby equipment.

I want to make clear you may very well enjoy a AD951 if all goes well. If you feel compfortable tweeking and adjusting the machine yourself upon arrival you may be ok. If the machine shows up as can be common with Felder machines "bad Castings" you may find yourself in for the fight of your lifetime. On the other hand this same senerio could be had with any manufacturer i just happen to know that Felder puts on a good show with regard to fixing costly problems. On the flip side if its something they can throw short money at and have a happy customer they seem more motivated then most.

The last thing i will offer is this. After my ordeal with Felder 4/-5 months till it all got worked out. I still have a machine with hollows and rounds and a cross threaded stripped bolt on one of my priszm guides. At the time and still now i would had done anything to have just waited another eight months till i could afford a machine that potentialy did not come with such problems. For instance at the time i was under the impression with the purchase of a new Martin machine came the setup of the machine by a Martin employee or dealer tech. This seemed of immense value to me as how could they possibly leave me with a lemmon. On the other hand if Martin or any companies factory tollerance specs are anything like Fleder you could also be screwed in the end so you know the whole machine purchase thing can be like christmas morning or like the worst freaking nightmare you could ever imagine.

I will point out at the time of my purchase all i had was a Dewalt lunchbox planer and a 6" Yates jointer and i was going out of my mind. I was also not at the time using my machines for work purposes. My point is i could had waited an additional time to save for higher quality machine but was both convinced Felder made a exceptional machine and sadly on my prt impatient thinking i had to have the machines asap.

Now you on the other hand i believe do what you do for a living and to do seem fully capable of doing it without a jointer or planer. I would say if you made it this long the way you have save for another bit of time for the Phase Perfect, make that the goal. Get it setup payed for then move on to the machine purchase, i wish i had! For instance at the time i was convineced this would be the largest machine to ever enter my shop. Now three years later i am looking at adding a Martin slidding table saw and martin shaper to my shop both of wich are three phase only. Even the high end Felder Format stuff is all three phase. The maybe even a widebelt?

Anyway rant over but i really cant stress enough my belief that if you are a woodworker and not hobbyiest "and you are a woodworker" get as much machine as you can squeez out of yourself.

And just to be clear when impurchased my AD941 i also purchased a RL125. I spend almost 20K. That is a huge lump of money to me as i am a carpenter afterall. At the time i think i was making $57K a year. I still am for the most part. So i get the implications of talking SCMI Invincible this and Martin that. At the end of the day though regret is a sob..

Hi Patrick, I’ve been following this thread as I’ve been leaning towards ordering an AD-941 for a university wood shop. After seeing your comment, I’m wondering if I shouldn’t go with something more beefy. It would be used but not heavily used by any means. Do you think the AD 941 would hold up for 20-30 years? I’ve also been looking at separates as the new Oliver machinery 12 inch jointer and 16 inch planer look to be solid well built machines. Any input is appreciated.Ive also been looking at Cantek but still haven’t been able to find much info.

[Brian Holcombe]

Separates are better for workflow in my opinion. A normal jointer is more adjustable because it has adjusters in both sides rather than a hinge on one side that need be shimmed to adjust.

A combo is nice for space concerns, which is why I own one.

I have no idea about the Felder but the Minimax FS41ES has been very good. Almost nothing for snipe (couple thou on longer boards). Flat tables, etc.

Only thing that is super annoying is that they delete the motorized table for the single phase version. After winding the thing a million times a day I really wish I had just bought the 3ph version and a big phase converter.

[johnny means]

Separates are better for workflow in my opinion. A normal jointer is more adjustable because it has adjusters in both sides rather than a hinge on one side that need be shimmed to adjust.


The tables on my j/p were fully adjustable like any other jointer. I can't imagine any other way to do it.

[Jim Becker]

They are fully adjustable...it's just a little more complicated on the hinge side of a combo because of, well...the hinges...but mine never needed any adjustment.

[Brian Holcombe]

They are fully adjustable...it's just a little more complicated on the hinge side of a combo because of, well...the hinges...but mine never needed any adjustment.

Jim, mine is non-adjustable on the hinge side, just shim to adjust. Luckily it is pretty accurate. I might tune it a little further but it's pretty much right on.

The operator side has bolts that can be adjusted.

My understanding is that stationary incline and parallelogram tables can be adjusted at all four corners (per table) with screws. I know that's not the case with a dovetailed way jointer which requires shims (as I understand it).

[Jim Becker]

Well, yea...I was considering shims to be "adjustment', but it's certainly not as convenient as the bolt-based side! :D

[Patrick Walsh]

Crazy there is no adjustment on the hinge side. That seems like a pretty big deal to me. Still I would probably purchase the Scm machine over the Felder 941 if I had it to do again. Like you though Brian I would buy the Scm 3phase version vrs the Minimax as the electronic adjustment is kinda just indispensable.

My Ad941 does have adjustments on the hinge side both up down, left and right. I just can’t imagine a modern jointer without complete adjustability built into it.

I know someone will chime in and say something about joggers have been calibrated with shims since the beginning of time but I just don’t see any need for that on a modern machine.

[Izzy Charo]

I've been following this thread with interest because I am considering a Felder AD941 J/P. I currently have a DJ-20 (8 inch) jointer from the mid-1980s that I upgraded with a Byrd head, and is great. Also have a 15 inch Griz planer with spiral head that works well...but I'd like a wider jointer, and I know the Felder also be an upgrade on the planer side. Having read on this Forum that the castings on the Felder machines have had issues, my question is how best to check that they are as flat as they need to be? I'm fortunate in that the Felder dealer is not far from me (in Sacramento) so I can actually examine the machine before I have it delivered... Is a good straight edge and feeler gauge sufficient...or would you rig up something with a dial indicator...and if so, what would be an acceptable +/- for flatness?
Thanks,
Izzy