Sand, Scrape, or Plane?

[Dan Larson]

I'm not sure if this thread belongs in the General Woodworking, Neanderthal, or Finishing forum since it's a little bit of each. Hopefully the more Neander minded will see this and weigh in as well.

I just finished reading the article in the Dec. issue of Fine Woodworking called "Sand, Scrape, or Plane?" In the article, the author takes a decent stab at determining which of these final surface prep techniques yields the highest quality finished surface. For those of you who haven't read this article, here's a Cliff's Notes condensed version:

The author prepared 3 pieces of the same board for finishing by each of the 3 techniques. He did this with both cherry and mahogany boards. In sanding, he started with 120 and progressed to 220 grit. Scraping was done with a card prepped on an 8000 grit stone and honed with green buffing compound. Planing duties were performed with a LN No. 4 with a 45 degree frog and the blade touched up on an 8000 grit stone. Separate portions of the pieces were finished with BLO, Watco Wipe-On Poly, and Shellac. The FWW editorial staff then evaluated the finishes without knowing which surface prep technique was used. The bottom line is that they had a hard time distinguishing between the finishes resulting from sand paper, a scraper, or handplane.

So, that's their judgement. What's your opinion?

[Mark Singer]

Woodworkers have very strong opinions about this topic. The real answer for me is let the wood tell you! Very simple ....if you can plane it ....it is fast clean and will show the depth and figure. If the wood tears....you can moisten it.....if it is constantly changing direction...try scraping...the scraper needs to be honed. If scraping and planing do not yeild good results ...sand. That is the wood talking. Many fine pieces....chairs for example, must be sanded....Maloof sands his chairs. If there are offsets and reveals...it is hard to plane... A table top can easily be planed...unless the wood has other ideas and then it will tell you....just listen:rolleyes:

[Bob Oehler]

Hi Dan Mark hit the nail on the head (oops I do not use mechanical fasteners ) I try to plane when ever possible. I usually scrape after planing but on some woods I find if you have a real good smoothing plane there is not much to do with the scrapers. I realy hate to sand since I feel I can see the differace, maybe not in the actual finished product but especially when stain and/or oil is applied. Very few of my pices get any more of a finish then Many Many coats of BLO over a long period of weeks. Followed by wax more wax and more wax. With finishes like this especially open pored like Red Oak, Black Walnut it realy becomes appearant if the piece was sanded. On maple and cheery it is far less appearant. The other great thing about planing/scraping is no dust to speak of and its quiet. Do I ever use sandpaper yes but it is a last resort. I try to plane/scrape everything before assembly, far less corners that way. But I keep sand paper on hand for the times there is no other way/. Did I answer your question probably not! Did mark answer your question Maybe!

[Jim Becker]

The succinct answer is... YES. ;) Mark covered the details.

[Dennis Peacock]

Well.....I can't add anything to what Mark said....but...I Agree.!!!

[Mark Singer]

I think it is well worth it to learn to sharpen and use scrapers. Even if it is not the final finish, it is a very helpful way of flushing surfaces and removing material. It is someting I use all the time and it saves a lot of time and becomes second nature .

[Dan Larson]

I think it is well worth it to learn to sharpen and use scrapers.

Definitely on my "to do" list. At first blush, they seem like such simple tools. Just a sheet of metal, right? The more I read about how to sharpen them, the more I realize that they are not so simple. Sharpening a handplane blade seems easy by comparison. But once you master the art of scraping, I can see why scrapers are so useful.

[Mark Singer]

Definitely on my "to do" list. At first blush, they seem like such simple tools. Just a sheet of metal, right? The more I read about how to sharpen them, the more I realize that they are not so simple. Sharpening a handplane blade seems easy by comparison. But once you master the art of scraping, I can see why scrapers are so useful.
Dan , when forming the burr, I burnish first flat with the surface of the scraper....laying it flat on a board or the bench...then in a vise roll it over , burnishing the edge...but careful you can roll it over and the burr will not cut since it is over burnished.... Once you get it ...you will like it!
My friend and world class guitar builder Kirk Sand....says it is his favorite tool..."in 2 minutes I have a new edge" The other thing he really uses is a utility knife blade wrapped with duct tape...half way...for inlays and detail work it is great!
http://www.sandguitars.com/about/kirkcraft.jpg

http://www.sandguitars.com/artists/atkinsc/atkinsc.htm

http://www.sandguitars.com/artists/felicianoj/felicianoj.htm

http://www.sandguitars.com/artists/reedj/reedj.htm

http://www.sandguitars.com/artists/eubanksk/eubanksk.htm

[Sam Blasco]

Yes, Yes & Yes... With the quality of abrasives and power sanders with dust extraction systems out there now-a-days, it is hard to see the difference after finish is applied. Though the sander may not be as gratifying as the feeling of using a well tuned and sharpened scraper or plane. Often, I'll do a light scraping after sanding... Just for fun, and because I like to see the shavings laying curled on my bench and floor.

[Lee DeRaud]

The other thing he really uses is a utility knife blade wrapped with duct tape...half way...for inlays and detail work it is great!On a similar note, I've had pretty good success with #18 Exacto blades: they're the 1/2" wide squared-off "chisel" style for the #2 handle.

[Scott Parks]

Is a high angle scaper plane easier to use than a hand held peice of metal?

What is a good scraper to buy? I have a curved one from 2 Cherries (to scrape concave cuts), and have not had good luck with it. I'm sure that the problem could be the user.:rolleyes:

[Mark Singer]

Is a high angle scaper plane easier to use than a hand held peice of metal?

What is a good scraper to buy? I have a curved one from 2 Cherries (to scrape concave cuts), and have not had good luck with it. I'm sure that the problem could be the user.:rolleyes:

The hand held is much better for most stuff....Sandvik is a classic

http://www.constantines.com/browseproducts/Sandvik-Scraper.HTML

[George Matthews]

What is a good scraper to buy?

Lee Valley has a whole line of scrapers...

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/index.aspx?c=2&cat=1%2c310

Getting the 'hook' on the edge is critical to success. The scrapers come with detailed sharpening instructions. A completely square edge, without a hook won't 'cut it'. :)

I have used this holder, and it's 'easier' in many respects.
24794

[Scott Parks]

The hand held is much better for most stuff....Sandvik is a classic

http://www.constantines.com/browseproducts/Sandvik-Scraper.HTML

Do you use a holder with those? I'll have to check for one on my next trip to the toy store.

What about sharpening. Do I need to buy the burnishing rod, or is there something else I can use?

Thanks, Mark & George.

[Jim Becker]

Scott, I have the Veritas "holder" shown in Frank's photo. But I tend to use the scrapers "naked" most of the time...it lets me use different edges and different areas of those edges easier and quicker.

[Mark Singer]

I just use them hand held. A burnisher is good to create a hook. Must be filed and honed first. I put a small burr on some and larger on others for more agressive use.

[lou sansone]

I really liked the FWW article. It did dispel a lot of myth. hey I love my scraper and use it all the time. I also love the wide belt sander for doing the grunt work. I agree with others about using scraper naked. I seem to have the most control with it hand held. a stanley 80 also is nice to use when doing a lot of scraping though

lou

[Dan Larson]

Dan , when forming the burr, I burnish first flat with the surface of the scraper....laying it flat on a board or the bench...then in a vise roll it over , burnishing the edge...but careful you can roll it over and the burr will not cut since it is over burnished.... Once you get it ...you will like it!
My friend and world class guitar builder Kirk Sand....says it is his favorite tool..."in 2 minutes I have a new edge" The other thing he really uses is a utility knife blade wrapped with duct tape...half way...for inlays and detail work it is great!
http://www.sandguitars.com/about/kirkcraft.jpg

http://www.sandguitars.com/artists/atkinsc/atkinsc.htm

http://www.sandguitars.com/artists/felicianoj/felicianoj.htm

http://www.sandguitars.com/artists/reedj/reedj.htm

http://www.sandguitars.com/artists/eubanksk/eubanksk.htm

Ok Mark, I gotta ask-- how did you come to know Kirk Sand??? Neat links, by the way. I'll now have to keep my eyes peeled whenever I watch the Tonight Show!

[Mark Singer]

My wife and I have know Kirk and his wife,Beth for 20 years or more....we are all old Laguna people. They are both very talented and wonderful people....Kirk is a great musician too and of course a master crafstman of fine instruments. My wife took Guitar from Beth and we have bought some nice guitars from him.He owns the Guitar Shoppe in Laguna. My son has a custom from Kirk...Myriam bought a Hill (custom also and very fine) from him. 15 years ago a great Ramirez from Spain...Above his retail shop is Kirks workshop...it is a small but amazing place. Lots of very rare Brazilian Rosewood he has saved.... I my ask Kirk to let me take a photo tour of his shop and post it on SMC...he makes some great ones! Great musicians frequent his shop...Earl Klug also plays a Sand! We ended up buying Kirks home in Laguna and he moved to another....I rent it to a nice family . Laguna is a small town and most of the long term residents know each other...many live and work here...as i have for 30 years.

http://www.hillguitar.com/

[Bob Oehler]

Hi Agian
I use my scraper plane as a roughing :o tool after planing dificult figured wood, or stuff that just will not plane nice. Then head to the hand scrapers. When I am scraping I have the "hook" set to cut a little heavier on the lable side of my card and a little lighter on the non label of my card. All ruogh cuts are away from me (for the most part) and a few finish passes toward me with the non lable side and that's it (most of the time). I used to use a holder but after a few projects I found that it hindered my scraping and you get used to how fast and hard to go so not to burn your thumbs :p

I use Lie Nielson scrapers but any good quality scraper works fine.

Take Care
Bob Oehler

[Mark Singer]

If you hold it by hand, only sharpen the edges on one side....that way you won't cut yourself....that still gives you 2 edges.

[Sam Chambers]

Dan, I've just started using scrapers and hand planes. I now realize that there are things I can do faster and better with a hand tool than with a power tool. As others have said, you have to learn to sharpen - not to become a sharnening expert, but to learn to sharpen well enough. There are some good books on the subject, and you'll find good advice here as well.

[Bob Swenson]

I marvel at the skill ,reverence, and devotion of many of the members to the hand plane. I am sure that they are great for cleaning up pallet and crate wood. I am on the other hand devoted to the Sandvik scrapers. I have been using them for over 40 years. They are an essential tool. Sandvik also makes great cordless saws. When all else fails pick up the Festool 150.

[Dan Larson]

Thanks to all for posting replies. Considering the controversial nature of this topic and the passions that it sometimes ignites, I have to admit that I'm a little surprised by the harmony in your collective opinions. No doubt that strong scraper and handplane skills are good to have-- I look forward to developing some.

Mark, I think posting a tour of Kirk's shop would be fantastic! The long term Laguna residents sound like an interesting collection of folks. I like it here in the midwest, but I do miss the unique culture that CA has to offer...