8" Jointers

[Richard Wolf]

Just got Dec. issue of Fine Woodworking. They review 8" jointers under $1,500. Grizzly came out on top. Pretty impressive for Grizzly!

Richard

[Joe Blankshain]

Richard,

Thanks for the info as I have been thinking about an upgrade from my 6" Grizzly.

[lou sansone]

gee I just was looking at that magazine myself and thought that the results would make quite a stir. hmmmmm lets see what happens ;)
lou

[Richard Wolf]

I know what you are saying Lou. I just hope Grizzly didn't get tipped off and send a ringer!
I don't think FWW would do that, do you?

Richard

[lou sansone]

I know what you are saying Lou. I just hope Grizzly didn't get tipped off and send a ringer!
I don't think FWW would do that, do you?

Richard

no,there are not supposed to. interesting results though

[Dev Emch]

Have any of you guys seen the commercial for Brown Securities? This one dude says that according to the report, we are the cheapest online broker. The customer says, "well I thought that XYZ was the cheapest?". No, according to this report, we are the cheapest. Who prepared the report? That would be "Selective Research".

------------------------------------------

So if you remove the DJ-20 as it costs more than $1500 dollars and you remove the general 480 as it also costs more than $1500 dollars, what is left? Sounds like "Selective Research" is on the loose again.

And how about the euro dudes? Well, I cannot recall a single big name maker offering an 8 inch jointer. Might be wrong here but I am drawing a blank. Felder, format, hofmann, martin, knapp, robland etc. are all 12 inches and bigger.

And who knows the current status of the powermatic 60. I gave up tracking that data when it became very difficult to ascertain who was actually making powermatic. That and the relative quality of the 60 equalized with the likes of Jet and Grizzley making it all about the same cup of tea.

I would like to hear some of the prices being offered on these. How close are they to this magic $1500 level?

And here is the real pickel in the cake frosting!

The current price on a NON X-5 (Which I dont believe in anyway by the way) is $1344 dollars and 99 penies. Shipping is no longer free. As per today's Amazon Catalog!

So it will be interestesting to read this article:rolleyes:

[Dan Larson]

I just hope Grizzly didn't get tipped off and send a ringer!

I have to admit that this is the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the rankings. I probably ought to give FWW and Grizzly more credit than that though.

Dan

[Mike Sheppard]

Flyer from Grizzly has the G0500 at $695 with shipping $777. Hope its as good as they say, ordered it fri.
Mike

[Dev Emch]

When it comes to an 8 inch jointer, if anyone can design, cast rough castings, precisely machine these, add good reliable bearings and then pack it up and ship it to your door step for $777 dollars, your a better man than I am.

I cannot touch a US machine shop in my area for less than $250 dollars for a minimal base charge. The grizz folks must have figured out some new magic for making these that us old timers are not privy to.

But then again, the phrase "Buyer Beware" also pops into my mind. Hopefully we dont see creekers posting help messages to trouble shoot their new jointers. If a casting is incorrectly machined or not machined or warped, there is nothing I can do about it.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I am sure that Grizzly is great and for most hobbiest will be more than enough! I do have a DJ20, but sometimes I wonder if it was better to spend $500 more on it than the grizz.

[Christopher Stahl]

I will once again stick up for the G0500, it's a fantastic machine. I owned it for over a year and a half, it hasn't let me down yet. By the way, my previous jointer was a DJ20. The best money I've saved. :)

chris

[John Miliunas]

Had I had the space, know-how and $$$, I would sooner have gotten a Euro machine or found a bigger Northfield or similar. As it happens, at the time, I got the most bang for my buck, by getting a non-X5 DJ20. A year ago in June, I had that puppy delivered for $1150.00, complete with a mobile base. Amazon had their $50.00 off thing, some other Father's Day special and free shipping. Delta threw in the mobile base. :) Today, I'd still like a bigger one but, all in all, I believe I've got a machine designed similar to that of the "Big Boy" Euro machines and it's still the one many of the other "routine" OEM's aspire to. The parallelogram table movement is one of a proven design and the quality throughout leaves little to be desired. Out of the Delta machines I run, I've only had to deal once with them regarding CS and that was for parts I needed to properly setup a floor model contractor saw I purchased. In other words, I have found their products to be pretty much "set to go" out of the box, including the DJ20.:) IMHO, it was worth the extra $$ I paid over some of the other choices out there. In the end, though, as long as whatever you get performs to your expectations, then it's a good deal!:) :cool:

[Christopher Stahl]

I will say I look forward to someday buying a Euro combination machine. :)

chris

[Keith Foster]

But then again, the phrase "Buyer Beware" also pops into my mind. Hopefully we dont see creekers posting help messages to trouble shoot their new jointers. If a casting is incorrectly machined or not machined or warped, there is nothing I can do about it.Nope, we're all out happily using a great tool that we got for a excellent price with set shipping costs. By the way, my G0586 8" jointer was dead on right out of the box and only took about an hour to setup. I used the savings to buy the G0513 15" Planer. Still under $1500 for both machines together, but I will admit that the shipping on the Planer wound up being credited due to a sever case of whoops on the part of Overnite.

I'll go one step further and put in a plug for Grizzly CS - they were absolutely fantastic. One e-mail on the G0513 Planer shipping fiasco and they were on Overnite's case like white on rice. In the end I had an apology from Overnite along with my choice of:
1) A new machine.
2) Delivery to my house by Overnite with lift gate service during the evening of my choice.
3) Delivery of a new machine by another carrier of my choice.
4) A complete refund of all money paid.
5) A super secret deal that made me very happy...

I went with 5! :D

[Chris Barton]

I will have to say that after having ordered several machines from the Griz that I have been nothing but pleased. The machines have been of high quality, with excellent fit and finish and no need for customer service because everything has been perfect! However, when I have spoken with others that have used Griz's CS they have all been very pleased. I am at a real loss to figure why it is such hobby for some on this board to bash them for being inexpensive and made in ROC... If they performed poorly or were a bad company to deal with, then I could understand it but, they seem to be bashed because they are not made in the USA, Germany, Austria or because they are inexpensive.

[John Miliunas]

Chris, will all due respect, I didn't note bashing of any specific OEM on this thread. Actually, for just about any negative comment I've seen on this forum in general, as it relates to that particular OEM, there are usually just as many positive comments. As it works out, particular vendor or OEM bashing on this forum, usually doesn't work too well and rightfully so!:) I personally had a Grizz 6" jointer. I had some issues "out of the box" with it, but Bill & company over at Grizzly took care of it. No biggie. They made me a happy customer. In fact, when I started my search for an 8" unit, it wasn't too long after they introduced the 4-knife 8" and I inquired first with them. That's probably what I would've ended up with, were it not for numerous delays over several months. I finally gave up and jumped on the DJ20 deal. Yes, I'm still quite happy I did, but it was not for hating Grizzly!:) Lots of folks out there pleased as punch with Grizz!:) :cool:

[Chris Barton]

Hi John,

My reply was not directed toward your comments. However, in this particular thread there does seem to be some folks that look at the Griz 8" jointer getting top tool honors with a bit on incredulity and a juandiced eye. I don't think anyone would have expressed surprise or skepticism if General or Powermatic took top honors. But, somehow there does seem to be some reservations about the Griz...

[Todd Davidson]

Fret not Chris for I must be the scion of ersatz woodworking as I have several Craftsman and Ridgid tools in my shop and soon will add a Grizzly to my much defamed OEM collection. But I am merely a carpenter who utilizes these tools to eek out a living...................:) :p :D

[Richard Wolf]

Todd, there is you problem, you are trying to make money with your tools, impossible!!

Richard

[Todd Davidson]

Richard~

Foolish mortal that I am.....Perhaps I should have let the flood waters of the weekend overtake my humble shop, collected the insurance money, purchased a fancy big money tool and spend my days basking in its shine. Nah.... I think I'll keep attempting the impossible.... :rolleyes: :) ;)

(Spent from Friday night well into Saturday morning, with Kim at my side, staving off the flood waters coming down the mountain. We had to have bailed a good 1200 to 1500 gallons out of our shop. Lost some plywood but saved everything else).

[Bill Simmeth]

Ya know, I am certain it's just the dark cynic in me, but I look at this article and the machine brands represented, then I look at the advertiser index. It's striking that neither of the brands whose machines got "awards" are present. (Nor have they been in the past to the best of my recollection.) It'll be real interesting to see if they are in the near future ;). I'm sure they are both fine machines, so please don't take this as a "bash" of your favorite machine -- it's just an observation (made after I spent X minutes pulling out all the advertising inserts, blow-in cards, free CD-ROMS, etc so that I could actually read the darn thing) :rolleyes:.

[Dev Emch]

Yup, I must be the old man out. The Bash-Meister of a certain bear icon.:rolleyes:

But its no accident that I have a bad attiutude towards grizzley. Why? I have experience repairing their handiwork. That is why.

My first introduction to grizzly was a jointer in which some of the machine holes were not mis-bored........ they were simply missing. The second and last introduction to grizz was a small metal lathe a close buddy of mine bought. A camel backed, WWII South Bend could out perform this thing. Man was it out! You really had to focus to just hold 5 thou over 2 to 4 inches!

And why is it that grizz brags about having that thompson surface grinder? This is a company that imports and sells machines that someone else builds. They have no business having a surface grinder unless their table warpage issue is so bad that they have to rework tables in house.

And its not an issue about building overseas. As you all know, I am a solid supporter of the DJ-20. As some of you already know, all planers and jointers made by Delta are made in the tawian plant. Yes, its a highly regulated plant with ISO 9000 certification but its just up the street from where many of the grizz machines are made so to speak. Of course as production moves to ROC, I may not be able to use that phrase much longer.

My dark introduction to grizzly has left me a bit of a cynic and a bit jaded. It will take some serious "Show Me Whatcha Got" to wear off the bad taste. We had to spend many hours hand scraping the ways and saddles on that lathe, replacing bearings, remachining surfaces, adding turcite, etc. to get this lathe to function. When we were done, it was spot on and can almost hold the accuracy of my hardinge. But man, that was some serious work for many winter evenings and I would never do it again!

And for those of you who have never seen this, here is a photo of what it looks like to machine highly accurate metal parts. These are bracket uprights for my tractor and they dont need to be this accurate. But I dont have a burn table so this was the fasest way for me to do this. These parts are being made on a 1930s brown & sharpe milling machine. I spent almost an hour just dialing in the setup using indicators to make sure that the arc was correct.

So I do wish all of you who go the grizz route the best of luck and hope that these machines work well. Some will admire them and some will admonish them. The good thing about forums like this is that we can put our collective experiences on the table and everyone is completely free to make their own choice. That is what I love about this country and this forum.

[Keith Foster]

Don't know for sure, but it seems to me that owning a Thompson surface grinder wouldn't be a bad investment for any company that sells machinery. Probably a good idea to own a few tools to repair motors as well. In a perfect world every thing would be dead on and nothing would ever get past QC. But this isn't a perfect world. :cool:
<O:p

[Scott Coffelt]

Dev, It's your opinion and you have a right to it.

I personally have been extremely happy with my tools from Jet and Grizzly, when I can I will be all over the G0513 for my shop. Just because something is made for less does not mean it is inferior. People under estimate the cost to have folks in the middle of the distribution channel, Grizzly has just figured out that they don't need to have every Tom, Dick and Harry selling their stuff. They are still able to move product. I have felt in every case that what I bought and received was worth more than what I paid for it in terms of quality. I just don't buy cheap either, as I do have some other items in my portfolio that cost on the higher side.

Anyways, thought I would just chime in.

[Dev Emch]

Scott...
The first Jet item I bought was a pallet jack. Still have it. Works Great. It was also made in china as the old ROC made in symbol was a circle with a C in it. The Jet pallet jacks are wider than most US made pallet jacks and as such, are more stable when moving heavy wide loads. I also have a 2 ton chain hoist from Jet and am quite pleased with it.

Over the years, I have watched jet evolve and have noted their progress. The biggest jump occured when they changed their image from blue to white. Not only did they change colors, but their quality shot significantly higher. Today, I find Jet's table saws better made than the current unisaws. Not as good as the generals but darn, DARN close.

The only really bad experience I have had is/was with grizzly.

Keith...

A thompson surface grinder is not a tool you just buy at home depot. These are old school, precision machine shop tools. Not any tom, dick and harry can run one without special training and skills. Granted, they are easier to use than say a metal planer.

But more significant is metalurgy. Grizzly does not use mehanite certified alloys. And of course, not me nor you have any clues on how they deal with post heat stress relief of castings. Entire books have been written on this topic.

For example. When a shaper or saw table is cast, it shows up in the machine shop as a raw casting. Lets assume that they have done traditional stress relief by aging the casting outside during summer and winter heat and freeze cycles to work out the residual thermal cooling stresses which occur as a side effect of cooling molten mehanite alloy in a sand mold.

Even so, there is a "crust" on the outside of this casting. The crust was the metal that came into contact with the cold sand so it contains tiny particles of sand but more so, it also has cold hardening to some degree.

Hoffmann will mount this table on their metal planer and plane off off the intial cut. This is the removal of the crust and leaves the casting (table) in an intermediate state. This intermediate casting is then placed into storage for several months to allow released stresses to reequalize. In otherwords, not only do they assume some deformation, its expected and dealt with.

Later on, the table is remounted in the planer and the finishing cut is taken leaving the table dead nuts flat in any direction. Such a table will remain flat for decades and decades.

If your not able to deal with the process in this manner, then short cuts need to be taken. The first one is a post heat, thermal stress releif process. Here, many months of slow, seasonal aging can be done in a matter of hours. Its about 80 percent effective. Then, the tables are thrown into blanhard grinders or linear grinders and ground from rough casting to finished casting in one sitting. Grinders work much faster than planers and do not leave as flat a surface for a variety of reasons. In woodworking machinery parlence, if its within 10 thou flat, its good enough! And when it comes to alloys, well, who knows what witches brew they are using from one day to the next. Its great to recycle old iron but lets not use it for machine tools which must remain flat in order to work.

This alloy controversy was at the heart of the issues with the old powermatic works. Delta wanted to buy them but did not because powermatic wanted to continue to operate the powermatic, meehanite certified foundary. In the end, Jet bought powermatic and the foundary issues are now a non issue. Who knows what is going on anymore.

How long does it take for a table to warp? That is hard to say. It could happen on the boat ride over here or it can take 2 years or 10 years or 20 years. There is also the possibility that a table never warps. The point is, given the background of production and manufactureing process, non of us can say with any degree of certainty. Its a crap shoot or a game of russian roulet.

[Jay Knoll]

Richard~

Foolish mortal that I am.....Perhaps I should have let the flood waters of the weekend overtake my humble shop, collected the insurance money, purchased a fancy big money tool and spend my days basking in its shine. Nah.... I think I'll keep attempting the impossible.... :rolleyes: :) ;)

(Spent from Friday night well into Saturday morning, with Kim at my side, staving off the flood waters coming down the mountain. We had to have bailed a good 1200 to 1500 gallons out of our shop. Lost some plywood but saved everything else).


Todd,

Hopefully everything is relatively OK in the shop, I remember when you posted those remodel pics, LOTS of good work there -- bummer if you had to start all over again

Jay

[Keith Foster]

This past week my wife called all excited about an old radio she found at an antique store - it was a Brunswick that was supposedly made in the 1920's. I have no reason to believe this isn't true. But, the misses was very excited and she went ahead and bought the unit before I saw it. Not that I would have tried to talk her out of it, it's her spending cash and she can buy what ever she likes.

Anyway, the antique store loaded the radio in the back of the SUV and we drove it home. The misses was all excited to have found an all wood antique and was looking forward to refinishing it and putting it on display in the house.

When we took the unit out of the SUV the "real wood" construction turned out to be vener and it was chipped pretty bad. The wood underneath was of a very poor grade (no idea what it really is) and the construction of the unit was on par with IKEA. The back cover was very flimsy and the unit rocked on its legs. In hindsite it would have been best left for another to purchase, but it's ours now. I suspect our best bet will be to pull the controls off and sell them on e-bay to recoup some of the cash she spent. In my opinion the unit is not rebuildable.

So, what's the point you may ask? Just this...
I was under the impression that everything made way back when was better than what we can get today. That old furniture (like old iron) was superior. My impressions were incorrect. There's a lot of junk out there - both old and new. If you find a good quality item - new or used - buy it.

I bought my "first" Grizzly item (the G0576 left tilt contractor saw) this past summer. I was extremely impressed with the quality of the saw as delivered and the customer service I received with a small shipping issue. That led to additional purchases because - in my opinion - they earned my business. They did so by offering a good solid piece of machinery at a good price point and backed up their offering with excellent service. How long will it last? Don't know. But I figure I'll get about 3 hours a weekend of shoptime in a given year. That's 156 hours for those of you who might be math challenged. Over a ten year period that's 1560 hours. I figure that would be considered pretty light usage. At those hourly rates the Grizzly will out last me by a long shot and my kids will get a nice unit they can auction off as an antique. My guess is that it will be a much better buy than the old Brunswick radio I just bought.

Is there a better brand of woodworking equipment out there? I imagine there is, but not at the same price point. Old verses new? Well, tell you what - I'll leave those Unisaws for others. I'm sure they are excellent machines, but I do not have the time to invest in tracking down one and then refinishing it. After all, we're suppose to be woodworking - not machine building. ;)

[Todd Davidson]

Jay~

Other than the plywood and some cast iron surface rust from all the added moisture (need to do a better job of keeping our machines waxed) most everything was okay. Am in the process of adding casters and/or plastic feet to everthing that touches the floors that doesn't currently have them. 9 days of rain was kinda rough. Thank you kindly for asking. We are nearly ready to post completed remodel pictures (should have been completed months ago but work got in the way :cool: ).

Sorry about treading off topic.......

Dev~

I love your technical expertise and greatly appreciate your sharing your knowledge with us. Although, I'd surmise, most of us would love to own and operate top of the line machines, for some of us cost efficiency is a determining factor. As long as I can get acceptable results with the machines I use, regardless of OEM, I'm satisfied.

[Richard Wolf]

Todd, you are absolutly right about making due with what you can afford. I personally know many people that purchased top of the line woodworking equipment with the assumption that they would make tons of money. Most of us know their are few people makes tons of money working wood. The results are always the same, sell off equipment, down size equipment or go out of business. We all would love large, oversized, powerful machines, but dollar and sense wise it doesn't work.
Quit frankly, I'm getting tried to being feed the line that if my machines don't weigh the same as my truck and cost more and a car, it's no good.
You know, I've been building stairs and rails for fifteen years and I have NEVER had a customer ask what type of table saw I use! Go figure.

By the way Todd, your mail box is full and I couldn't PM you last night, clean it out.

Richard

[Dev Emch]

Points taken.

Since the late 1800s until now, there were no fewer than 300 companies making woodworking machines. In fact, you should see some of the catalogs printed by some of these companies. Works of art. Many of these companies made machines that I would rate as junk. A handful were nothing short of technical excellence.

With the loss of Delta and Powermatic, we now have only two north american major manufactures left. General and Northfield. Both are job shopping tasks out. General builds transmission towers for Quebec Hydro and Northfield does super large machine precision machine work for custom industry. Sure, these two names are still out there but they are marketing monikers. I know this as I was snooping around the Delta machinery auction looking for metalworking stuff when Tupelo closed.

This whole thread began the current FWW write up which conveniently left out the serious competition. Not the martins or felders or roblands. But the made in taiwan stuff such as the DJ-20. Last I checked, the DJ-20 did not weigh as much as your truck. And even though the used market is flooded with machinery, some of it pretty new, not a single article of note shows up suggesting this as an alternative.

Its always the same old players selling the same old machines in new paint with new labels. Quite frankly, I am growing tired of this same old shell game as well. Open up a Popular Woodworking magazine and you get hit by a 1 or 2 page color spread by grizz. Open up a Home SHop Machinist magazine and you get hit by the same 2 page color spread but this time for metalworking machines. In fact, the first two pages are machine tools and the last two pages are sheet metal working tools.

When I worked for a flow meter company, the running joke was that one day we would sell a picture of the meter for an enourmous amount of money. The price goes up and the cost of making it has to go down. Eventually, these two curves will hit a ceiling and a floor. Thus, the virtual meter was born. I see a similar model at work in woodworking machines.

[Craig Zettle]

Woudn't it be interesting if ALL manufactureres would be up front about where there machines were assembled, where the motors came from, etc., so we could take it from there. Researching this stuff is difficult, and some manufacturers downright hide it. I personally am more of a hands on guy. If it looks solid, runs smooth, I am willing to give it a try. There is a tradeoff for American iron and we all know what that is. I feel an off topic discussion brewing here. About greed. Pure and simple. I tried to have a stinking gear machined at a couple of local machine shops and the job was too small, and I was too poor to talk to. Oh sure, I could have paid them 2 days wage to do 1 hour of work. Americans screwing Americans. What could be more patriotic.

[Keith Foster]

Dev,
I sense we are starting to agree. :D
Junk is junk no matter where it comes from - the good 'ole USA or the "evil empire of China". Personally, I would like to see more options available for US made goods. Contray to what must be popular belief, I would choose an American made product if all other things were equal. I'll even go one step further and say that I would be willing to pay a small premium for a US built and serviced item - say in the 10% to 15% range. Problem is, that USA "premium" is generally 50% or higher - if it's even available. As much as I would like to be a full time woodworker - I ain't. So the hobbiest tools I have chosen are in line with my expectations, needs, and budget. If this was a full time venture, then I imagine my choices would have been different (then again - maybe not). :cool:

[Byron Trantham]

FYI, the September issue of Wood reviewed 8" jointers and Grizz got the nod. The "Con" for the DJ20 was the length of the out feed table - too short. During that review, the Chinese version of their 8" jointer hadn't been released yet and goes for about $675.

[thomas prevost]

two issues many are missing when doing reviews!!

The significance of the ISO 9002 rating. This is an international code pertaining to testing and specifications/tolerances. It guarantees the products meets all speciations set forth by the manufacturer. It goes all the way back to the suppliers of parts and raw materials. Examples are if a parts says 316 stainless, it must meet the intranatinal code for alloy content of 316 stainless. If the manufacturer states a table to be within .001". All shipped products must neet that code. WE are seeing more of this as EU require it for all manufacturing and importing to Europe. Hence the quality difference we see between Europian imports vs Asia.

Secondly, when buying a tool, how much of the cost is in value or to feed the supply line from manufacturer to your shop. I.e. Yorkcraft or Grizz manufacturer-retailer- you. Many US brands- Asian manufacturer- Brand name wholesaler-regional distributor-retailer-you.

Lastly IMHO, the only good thing about most reviews is the spec table included in most. The critera for most is based upon the preferences/bias of the reviewer. Otherwise all reviews would have the same conclusion. But, cabinets saws for example will have one mag rating Delta the best, article will rate Grizz the best, then we still see one that rates Gen Inter. the best. I then often see many caveants such as price, availability excluding many models.

We would all like to have an Oliver 20" jointer/planer but we must also put things into persepective as to cost vs hours of use. A Sunhill 6" jointer or YorkCraft 15" planer would not be appropriate for a 30-40 person cabinet shop, but will more than suffice for the hobbiest who spends a few hours each weekend making furniture for his own use.

[Dev Emch]

This reply responds to the first three entries of page three of this thread.

AMEN! (short answer)

But you all know I cannt leave it at that. Gotta toss in Dev's caveats.

First of all, my position has never changed. Its rock solid. So if Keith thinks I am bending, I most certainly am not. Nor do I support the made in the USA adage. Some of the best machines *WERE* made in this country. LOTS of the worst machines were also *MADE IN USA*. Look at that huge list of names most of which none of us are familiar with. I would say of the 300ish companies, only about 10 to 20 were first rate. And why is it that the best shapers ever made came out of germany and austria shorly after the main down fall of US woodworking machine industry?

The US labor market has priced itself out of reality. The fact that US machine shops are dropping like flys is a testiment to this. You go out and get an estimate for a say a new roof job. It comes back at some huge, outragous figure. So you complain. What happens? Most often, the contractor will come back and adjust the figure a bit downwards. He does this by skimping on the raw goods. You forgoe the use of ice shield and stick to only tar paper. Then you go from slate to asplalt. Then from 50 year asphalt to 40 and then 30 and ultimately to three tab. Throughout this process, he usually has not taken the hit one bit when it comes to his labor component. Nope, you the consumer has to eat the difference in quality.

So quite frankly, I dont care where the jointer is made. Given the current state of things, that does not really matter as no US made jointers with the exception of the northfields is available and those are in another dimension.

For me its about doing things right the first time and the only time. We have learned how to build outstanding machines over the last 150 years. We being the international community. So it does matter if the company is ISO 9002 certified. This tells you that they can not only build one jointer but can consistantly replicate these into multiple, identical jointers. Not sorta identical with missing holes!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, ISO 9000 certification does nothing to eliminate the brain cramps that many designers and engineers suffer from. If you design junk, then you can reproduce junk consistantly.

And for all those grizz fans who spend 700 dollars on a new jointer. How exactly am I **NOT** better off when I avoid a dingy auction in New Jersey last week where a 16 inch Porter 300 jointer sold for $100 dollars plus a 10 percent buyers premium and a $75 dollar load out fee? Throw in the walker turner radial arm drill identical to the one Lou posted in one of his shop tours and I have doubled my investment. I still have more than enough money left over to frequent Taco Bell on the way home along with two icons of american machine tool industry.

Talk to the old iron guys with some of these heavy machines. They were drawn into it because they are cheap or value minded. I have seen used 8 inch DJ-20s or Powermatic 60s or Generals going for 1/4 of their new list price and they are in great shape. Why pay to recycle one of these by sending it to the scrappers laddle only to be reincarnated as a grizzly with shiny new powder coat? I say, save the trip and save the money. Just drop it off on my shop landing and let me at with a rag and some solvent. I like to think that I am being green by hauling some of this stuff home and that is not a reference to the green paint used on these machines.

This is not an option for everyone. I understand that. But for many, its a better and more cost effective solution.

[Rob Blaustein]

I have seen used 8 inch DJ-20s or Powermatic 60s or Generals going for 1/4 of their new list price and they are in great shape. Why pay to recycle one of these by sending it to the scrappers laddle only to be reincarnated as a grizzly with shiny new powder coat? I say, save the trip and save the money. Just drop it off on my shop landing and let me at with a rag and some solvent.
Dev,
I'm in the market for an 8" jointer and would love to take you up on that offer. Next time you see one of those in great shape for 1/4 the price, feel free to grab it IF you can somehow get it to me without too much trouble (I don't know where you live, but if you're not too far a drive from Boston I'd pick it up). I'd gladly pay you twice what you payed for it. Heck, I'd even help out with the rag and solvent.
Rob

[Keith Foster]

First of all, my position has never changed. Its rock solid. So if Keith thinks I am bending, I most certainly am not. For gosh sakes no! Did not mean to infer you were bending - just wanted to convey that in reality I don't think we are all that far apart on our views. I think the main difference is that you were once burned on a purchase of a Grizzly and I was not. I can full understand that you would prefer not to be burned again (BTW - I feel the same way about several other companies). The two issues you described would make most anyone shy away from a repeat performance. No arguement there. My experience with Grizzly was VERY positive and I will continue to view them as a source of future woodworking products.

Having said that, I'd love to snag that 20" jointer you described. But - I gotta get it into a 3 car garage shop that regularly houses one car and now the misses says she wants hers in there as well. :p To tell you the truth, the 8" jointer I have is pushing the size envelope!

[Dev Emch]

Bob...
We just finished a few of these auctions.

1). Check out the OWWM forum reports on the New Jersey pattern works shop that went down last week. There, the porter went for $100 bucks. That is way less than 1/4 sales price even back when it was new.

2). The govliquation site just closed off a bunch of auctions yesterday. The oliver in need went for $1300 dollars. A bit steep for this guy but it is a #12 oliver which is a rarer find than the standerd #166 jointers. These sold new at close to $20,000 or so dollars. A brand new #12 custom made by eagle machinery who now owns the patterns will set you back over $30,000 dollars. So I guess the $1300 was not that bad and it had an ITCH head to boot.

3). The heritage furniture works recently had a massive auction in PA. Tons of good stuff there. So did the Drexel works this summer. Several 42 inch tanny bandsaws went out of there for less than $350 bucks each.

The biggest opportunities are on the east coast. Those in the midwest and the south like FL have to pay more as there is less to choose from. For WI and for New Jersey/PA/NY area, its ripe pickens.

Join the OWWM forum and start snooping around. The problem with this system is you have to wait for what your looking for. If you into instant gratification, you may be in for some depression. Keep your eye open for auctions and sales. Check the govliquation site often. Its a numbers game and the items are out there. Look up the auction houses in your area and call them. Get registered if need be. Let them know what your looking for. Let the local woodworkers with heavy iron know that you are interested and would like to frequent some auctions. Next thing you know, your invited as no one likes to eat alone at these functions. The short of it is this. GET CONNECTED LOCALLY TO YOUR OWWM CONTINGENT!

[lou sansone]

hey don't be spreading around all of those good fishing holes for old iron. man o man there will be notin left for us:rolleyes:

lou

[Dev Emch]

Oh I am keeping the best stuff for us.....



You can find it at www.grizzly.com as well as harbor freight. Shhhhh, thats where you find the good stuff you know.:cool:

[Roger Myers]

two issues many are missing when doing reviews!!

The significance of the ISO 9002 rating. This is an international code pertaining to testing and specifications/tolerances. It guarantees the products meets all speciations set forth by the manufacturer. It goes all the way back to the suppliers of parts and raw materials. Examples are if a parts says 316 stainless, it must meet the intranatinal code for alloy content of 316 stainless. If the manufacturer states a table to be within .001". All shipped products must neet that code. WE are seeing more of this as EU require it for all manufacturing and importing to Europe. Hence the quality difference we see between Europian imports vs Asia.
.

Please be aware that a company being registered to the ISO standards (ISO9001, ISO 9002, or TS, or the new international standard) does NOT guarantee the product in any fashion. A company may be registered and still have very poor quality performance.... It does suggest that a company has demonstrated to the registering body (independant registrars working to the international standards) that at least at the time of the audit they had met certain minimum standards with respect to their quality management system. The shorthand version of the ISO standard is "say what you do, do what you say, and document it". Having said that, it is more probable that an ISO registered company will be more likley to meet their own product specifications than a company that is not registered, but that is about it. It is not, I repeat not a guarantee of anything.
Also, companies registrations may be for specific factories or even specific product lines within a factory, and not include the balance of their product line.
And finally, there are a great many very high quality firms in the ROC (both ISO registered and not) just as there are in the US and Europe.... Having said that, I will agree that the challenge is finding them, and that the % is lower than in either the US or Europe...
Just my .02 worth, supported by a lot of years dealing with manufacturing firms and factories all over the world....
Roger

[Dev Emch]

Roger is absolutely right. I mentioned it as a tiny speck of finding consistancy in the process. A machine shop in the US may be a clean room affair building bomb triggers for nukes whereas the same phase in Vietnam is a teenager with no formal training running a WWII rockford metal shaper in his back yard or pig house barefoot. I would laugh but I have seen this photo and it was no joke! From an international position, the definition of a noun can vary greatly and if everyone is to be on the same page, some form of consistancy has to be achieved asap. I have also seen job shoppers in tawian finishing 14 in bandsaw wheels in their homes. Dinner is cooking on the stove while the whole room was repleate with green paint fumes. A pallet with several bandsaw wheels was drying in the middle of the room. Other factories in taiwan have the latest in lights out CNC.

Before I get involved with any of these folks on a major basis, I want to see some SPC data. That is statistical process control. The proof is in the pudding. For example, if the jointer I was greated with had SPC data being harvested for hole placement, this jointer would never have made it to the US not to mention our door step.

So whats one jointer amongst many? Well, it managed to tick off a very vocal person as did the metal lathe. It conjures up expressions like "You people arnt smart enough to pat your head and chew gum at the same time". A flow meter returned to a competitor company took the cake. It was being used in a hydroxide plant in salt lake and the system failed under warrenty. So the plant manager takes what is left of a cock roach which was encrusted with dried hydroxide and tapes it to the meter with a message. "You people should work the bugs out before selling this stuff". Sure, that was lots of humor over lunch but was it that funny? It was for us but not my buddy.

And I sure am not going to spend my money to see if grizz has fixed its issues.

[JayStPeter]

I totally restored an old Rockwell/Delta 37-220 6" jointer. Now I have an 8" Grizzly.

I bought the 37-220 after reading how they were the great machines and I should avoid all new "junk" and spend less on old iron. By the time I replaced the motor/switch from 3-phase to single, new bearings and knives sharpened, I had a good amount in the thing. Frankly, I am unimpressed. I'm not entirely sure if it was wear or just mfring tolerances, but that machine had tons of backlash. The table sag needed adjustment frequently, even after some lock-tite. I'd much rather have bought a new Grizzly. I'm very happy with my current 8" Grizzly (which I also bought used, just not as old).

IMO, old iron is more of a dice roll than new stuff from Grizzly. How much use/abuse isn't always clear. The price on parts for that thing from Delta was astounding, but they were still available.

The same old iron lovers convinced me to buy an old 14" Delta drill press instead of getting a new Grizzly for a little more money. Big mistake, what a piece of junk that is.

Not all of my new machines were perfect. My Grizzly bandsaw and my Unisaw both required calls to the mfr. to get problems fixed. Both companies stood by their products and got me parts. Both machines are now excellent machines that require no adjustments or extra effort of any kind by me. Unlike either "old iron" machine I bought that require(d) constant attention and occasionally ruined pieces.

I don't mind working on my machines. I like it and enjoyed restoring the jointer. My machines are all well maintained. But, when I'm working on a project, I don't want to HAVE to go into machine repair mode because the thing vibrates parts off or out of adjustment.

I'm not against old iron and may go that way again in the future to get a larger jointer. But, IMO, buyer beware with old iron. I, for one, am not surprised at all that Grizzly could win an 8" jointer comparison. Even the older ones are darn nice machines. If they've improved the new ones, sweet.

Jay

[Russ Massery]

Finewoodworking has posted a companion video on the 8" jointer article. It's done by the person who wrote the article. http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/wvt118.asp

[Keith Foster]

Russ - thanks for posting the link. The video answered several questions I had concerning jointer "lingo". Very interesting stuff in there!

[Floyd Cantrell]

I just have to add my two cents. All machines can have problems with castings. Two stores

I recently purchased a used Mini-Max FS35, granted an older machine but in good condition. In doing my original set-up of the machine when I got it moved into the shop, not easy moving 750 lbs. I found the out feed table bowed 0.015 across the 350MM direction, lengthwise it was acceptable if you measured in a straight line. The In-feed was also bowed, but only about 0.010. I then checked the fence and found it also was twisted, didn't measure, but significant light showing on square. Now I am thinking what did I buy. I found a Machine shop that had a large Blanchard Grinder and was well know for there quality work. I removed all tables and fence and had reground for $325.00. They did a really nice job and the tables are better than I can check. See picture of completed rework.


Second story. My neighbor went out of town one weekend and asked me to buy him a 8 inch jointer from a travailing tent tool sale that was only in town for the weekend. I told him I didn't think a jointer from the tent sale would be very good, he said it will do for me. I was really apprehensive in doing this, but I was able to talk the lead salesman down to $250.00 for a 8 Inch jointer. The base was as you would expect, junk. The upper end was really nice finish and we set it up and worked real well after setting the tables. I was really amazed at the quality of the upper end, it looked just like my 6 inch Jet, same fence adjustment and attach holes. I could not find any problems with the tables. I was dumbfounded on how they could make this 8 inch jointer and sell for $250. The normal price was $300, but I think he just wanted to move since it was so heavy.