Anyone Bought/Used "Best Sharpening Stones" Arkansas Recently?

[Jake Rothermel]

My sincerest apologies for starting yet another even-remotely-related-to-sharpening thread...but I need some advice and where better to go for it than the Creek?!


I've been using abrasive paper on granite for some time now and while I've been able to get good results (for me, anyways), my current supply is starting to run low and I'll probably have to purchase more by mid-summer. Paper has been good to me but it is a constant expense and that's money I could be spending on something else, so.... maybe it's time to up my sharpening ante. So, I've decided - after way too much thought & deliberation, I admit - to finally start using stones.

I've never had much luck on diamond stones (that I could afford, anyways...). I don't have a good source of water in my shop, unless I want to go outside to the garden hose (I don't) and besides which my shop isn't heated so winter sharpening would likely be a pain (maybe literally?). I'm also not too keen on all that flattening, either. The "Oilstones Cut Slower!!" thing doesn't really concern me; I'm a hobby woodworker so seconds don't count much for me. Most of my tools are old(er) rehabs and are, I think, mostly O2 or similar so I'm pretty convinced that Arkansas are a good fit for me right now. Maybe it's the hippie in me, but I'm really drawn to the natural stones as opposed to the man-made (Nortons, and the like, etc.).

The only question left, then, is where to buy them? http://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/Arkansas_Sharpening_Stones.htm


Has anyone bought or used Arkansas from Best Sharpening Stones recently? I've searched through the archives here and found a Few Recent Threads (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?223275-Advice-on-choosing-some-Arkansas-stones) that have been helpful, but the most recent is 2-1/2 years old. Still, it seems pretty clear that Dan's and Natural are considered to be the top vendors; but they're awfully expensive and my Shop Funds are on the low end these days (a new house and a new baby'll do that to you, I hear...). If the Best's are a good quality, I could pick up what I need (three 10x3 stones) from Best all at once for less than $200 - which super fits my budget at the moment. A translucent can wait, for now anyways. Anything that size at Dan's or Natural is twice that price, at least. Are the Best's any good? Decent? What say you?

Secondary Follow-Up: If the Best's aren't worth it, I'll likely go with Dan's or Natural but I'll probably also have to buy them one at a time at those prices... Is there an order I should think about buying them in? Should I buy a Soft first and work my way up to the finer stones? Or should I do the opposite and save my pennies for the finest first and come back down to a Soft? Does it even matter? And do I even really need a Hard Arkansas?


I can't imagine I won't still do my initial aggressive grinding on abrasive paper, since that's what I know (and I use the paper-on-granite for a lot of other rehab projects, too, like plane soles, etc.) and I doubt I'll stop stropping afterwards (green compound, leather), either; but after an initial 3M-level 220 or 320 grind, I'd love to not deal with paper in my daily sharpening routine anymore. And I won't even ask which oil I should use...only so many Pandora's Boxes I can open at a time!!


Y'all are the best. Super thanks to all in advance!
jake

[Jim Koepke]

My question for bestsharpeningstones.com is how thick are their stones?

Another way to save is with an 8" stone instead of a 10" stone. I have one 10" stone and do not always use its full length.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I've been using abrasive paper on granite for some time now and while I've been able to get good results (for me, anyways), my current supply is starting to run low and I'll probably have to purchase more by mid-summer. Paper has been good to me but it is a constant expense and that's money I could be spending on something else, so.... maybe it's time to up my sharpening ante. So, I've decided - after way too much thought & deliberation, I admit - to finally start using stones.

That's why people usually switch to stones. I suggest replacing the fine grits first, as that's where stones are economically most advantaged relative to paper. Coarse stones dish/wear faster than fine ones, and that reduces their cost advantage relative to paper.



Has anyone bought or used Arkansas from Best Sharpening Stones recently? I've searched through the archives here and found a Few Recent Threads (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?223275-Advice-on-choosing-some-Arkansas-stones) that have been helpful, but the most recent is 2-1/2 years old. Still, it seems pretty clear that Dan's and Natural are considered to be the top vendors; but they're awfully expensive and my Shop Funds are on the low end these days (a new house and a new baby'll do that to you, I hear...). If the Best's are a good quality, I could pick up what I need (three 10x3 stones) from Best all at once for less than $200 - which super fits my budget at the moment. A translucent can wait, for now anyways. Anything that size at Dan's or Natural is twice that price, at least. Are the Best's any good? Decent? What say you?

I had a bad experience with them a while back. I placed an order for some items that were listed as "in stock" with 3-day shipping. After the initial acknowledgment they went completely dark. After a couple weeks I tried to call, but it turns out that their number is for an outsourced service that can take orders but can't do anything else. I left my number and they did not call back. After a couple more weeks I contested the charge with PayPal. They didn't respond to PayPal either, so PayPal refunded the order amount. The problem isn't so much that they're slow as that they apparently misrepresented their inventory and then didn't acknowledge repeated inquiries from me or PayPal.

I had previously placed one other order that was handled exactly as promised. .500 is a great batting average, but not so good for retail performance.



Secondary Follow-Up: If the Best's aren't worth it, I'll likely go with Dan's or Natural but I'll probably also have to buy them one at a time at those prices... Is there an order I should think about buying them in?

I'd start with the Dan's translucent. It's a very good stone, and it will have the largest economic benefit.

[ken hatch]

Jake,

Good advice from both Jim and Patrick, I've just a couple of things to add. With hard stones there is little need for a 1" thick stone, they wear so slowly for most users a 1/2" stone is fine. If you free hand a 2" stone works as well (maybe better) as a 3" stone and the same with 8" vs. 10". A two stone set up is all you need, a med India ($20 USD from TFWW) and one of the hard Ark, can be a hard white, hard black, or translucent it makes no never mind. Add a strop and you are set for any O-1 iron.

When you have a little extra money get a good course diamond to do the dirty work of grinding and stone maintenance.

Your hippy side is whispering the truth, natural stones for finishing work better than man made ones. It's all in the scratch pattern. Of course YMMV.

ken

P.S. The English Woodworker has a new series on sharpening, it is worth a look.

[ken hatch]

Jake,

I want to add:

I don't like to think of myself as a stone collector but.....From an inventory I did yesterday for insurance I must be. I have over $10,000 USD of stones, both natural and man made. BTW, don't ever get hooked on Japanese natural water stones :o. With all those stones to pick from over 90% of my sharpening is done on two of my cheapest stones, a 8X3X1/2 Norton Translucent ($79.95 USD from Tools For Working Wood) and a Norton Medium India ($16.95 USD also from Tools For Working Wood). The Translucent stone is not available at this time but I will often use a 8X3x1/2 Hard Black Arkansas ($158.90 USD from Dan's) instead of the translucent. Dan's list the Hard Black as finer than his Translucent stone. In use I can believe that is true, the Hard Black stone has a "harder", "slicker" feel than the Translucent stone. Sometimes I will use a 9X2X3/4 Norton Hard Arkansas ($169.95 USD from Tools For Working Wood) as my fine stone, it is a little courser and faster than either the Translucent or Hard Black. I also use an Atoma 400 grit diamond plate ($70.18 USD from Tools from Japan) for grinding and stone maintenance.

Add a Horse Butt Strop ($22.95 USD from Tools For Working Wood), and if you wish a little "green stuff", you can have a very good sharpening system that will last your lifetime. Total cost depending on availably of the Norton Translucent is less than $200 USD and less than $120 USD if you do not pick up the Atoma diamond plate starting off.

Good luck in your hunt for stones, good Arkansas stones are hard to beat for day to day sharpening of plain high carbon steel. You only need two stones for a working system, one is a very cheap India....Buy the best fine stone you can.

ken

[Don Jarvie]

I have the translucent one it works pretty well. I use the fine India and the the translucent after hollow grinding. Everything gets sharp.

[Robert Engel]

I think they are good stones. I have the translucent/surgical black. I only use them for honing carving gouges.

I also think it best to stick with one method or another. It makes your setup simpler and speeds up the process IMO.

FWIW, my setup is diamond plate --> water stone --> strop and I sharpen freehand. For tune ups, I go 1250 (xfine) diamond straight to 8K water stone. I'm back to work in less than 90 seconds (unless I've been lazy and gone way over which case I start with 800 diamond). I have coarser diamond plates and water stones down to 350 grit, too.

[Kees Heiden]

Do you use a guide? Ditch it and you can save yourself a bunch of money. 8 x 2" is the perfect size for freehand sharpeing because you don't wear a sideways hollow into the stone when it is narrow. And 8" is plenty of length.

Is it possible to find a vintage translucent? Those are usually pretty cheap and at least just as good.

If you do decide to keep on using the guide, well sorry, that's an expensive hobby for an oilstone user.

[lowell holmes]

I sharpen on a diamond plate and hone on mdf charged with green honing compound. I sharpen free hand.

It results in razor sharp edges. I keep the set up on the bench and touch up edges as needed.
My method is not messy like using water stones. I have a set of Norton stones, but I don't use
them because of the mess.

I have used the scary sharp method of sharpening and it yields incredibly sharp edges.
I just don't like having window glass out on the bench.

[michael langman]

I bought my stones from Natural Whetstone Company. Good prices and excellent stones. A medium, a hard white is all you really need to get started. You can buy the translucent if you want too but not necessarily needed.
A Norton combination coarse, fine, bench stone works well also. Much less money.

[michael langman]

Ken is right on about the medium india stones from Norton. They are a good substitute for the coarse,fine bench stone I mentioned.

[Richard Darjes]

Of course an "India stone" is a man-made stone made from aluminum oxide, so it may not satisfy his "hippy" side's desire to use natural products. I mean, I am just saying man. :D

[Brian Holcombe]

Natural stones are at their best as finish stones or in some cases medium-finish stones (soft ark). I prefer synthetics for everything else.

I did attempt to use naturals from 1k up, but ultimately found that it was faster and more accurate using synthetics up to a medium finish and for certain steels that are especially hard I found that it was easiest and most productive to work all the way through to finish with synthetics then polish with a natural stone to perfect the edge.

[Brian Henderson]

I just don't like having window glass out on the bench.

Which is why I built a wooden holder for my float glass, you can adhere paper to the glass and there's a lid that keeps it all safe and secure between uses.

[Mark R Webster]

You might want to check out this thread. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?246763-Be-aware-if-wanting-to-buy-from-bestsharpeningstones-site.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I've bought from Dan's and from Natural Whetstones, both are good sellers. I read a bunch of David Weaver's old posts about oil stones and it seems like Dan's translucent is finer cutting (and more expensive), but that Natural Whetstones has a cheaper and more aggressive soft ark. So I got the soft ark from natural (8x3x1). For the translucent, I waited for an 8x2x1/2 to pop up on Dan's specials page. If you wait for that you can save probably 25-50%.

I'm happy with both of the stones, but you'll need something coarser as well. I like the fine india. It's very aggressive when new but mellows out to something close to a 1000 grit waterstone. It's a good stone to begin most sharpening sessions, but it's not very fast if you want to change bevel angles or remove nicks. For heavy jobs like that, you can always go back to sandpaper. I recently got a coarse Crystolon stone (120 grit) for these jobs. So far, it is seriously aggressive, but I'm waiting to see how much of that aggression it retains, how flat it stays, and if it can be easily re-flattened without losing aggression.

[michael langman]

Dressing india stones with a cheap diamond stone brings back their cutting action, and usually needs to be done when new.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I dress the india regularly with a 220 grit diamond stone. It keeps the stone in a useful cutting range but its still slower than when new. On balance, with this sort of maintenance, I'd say it's a bit slower and leaves a finer finish than a shapton 1000.

[Jon Shank]

I recently bought a set of three stones from Bestsharpening stones, but through Amazon. Unfortunately I've had some medical issues get in the way so I haven't really used them much but as far as buying them, that was trouble free. The three stones I received were accurate to the description, appear to be properly graded and were flat and solid. I went for one of the cheaper mounted sets, so they are only about half an inch thick, but as has been pointed out, they are harder stones and should last a good, long time. I already had a coupe of courser stones, but i would agree that even the soft Ark seems to be a little on the fine side for real grinding.

Anyway, as a given that I haven't had a chance to use them yet, I don't have any complaints.

Jon

[Jim Koepke]

i would agree that even the soft Ark seems to be a little on the fine side for real grinding.

To me even a 1000 water stone is a bit slow for "real grinding."

With oil stones a crystolon stone is about the fastest cutting in my collection. For a deep knick or other work to remove a lot of metal, diamond stones or sandpaper may be a better options.

For me the water stones below 1000 wear too quickly to be of much use.

jtk

[Jake Rothermel]

I knew I was asking my questions in the right place. Thank you, all, for your input.

Patrick, that was exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. I had no idea Best would have such crappy customer service! Even if their product is decent, I'm not sure I want the headache or hassle of thinking, "Will they screw up? Or will I be one of the lucky ones?" Yeah, I'd rather not gamble like that. Digging a little deeper on places like Amazon revealed that overall the quality is poor more often than not. Looks like I haven't found a whetstone unicorn after all....

I had a suspicion I would be going with Dan's and/or Natural not unlike David Weaver's posts had suggested but I wanted a little more recent feedback before I pulled any triggers. "Smaller" stones makes sense, too. I considered the 10x3s from Best primarily because they were so affordable by comparison and I, like many I think, have a kind of knee-jerk reaction that, "Bigger is Better," even when it's not. But an 8x2 or 8x2.5 should be plenty for my tools.

I'll keep an eye open for deals or specials - maybe I'll get lucky - although I couldn't find any "Specials" page on the Dan's website. In any event, I think I'll start with a fine stone first - translucent or a black.

I tend to sharpen freehand, unless I need to regrind a bevel or something in which case I do use a guide. But if I'm doing that, I'm probably going to stick to paper, at least for the foreseeable future.

jake

[Robert Hazelwood]

Huh. Just went to Dan's site to look for the specials page, and it seems they've totally revamped their website. It would appear they no longer do the specials, but perhaps if you can check for sure.

[Jim Koepke]

Huh. Just went to Dan's site to look for the specials page, and it seems they've totally revamped their website. It would appear they no longer do the specials, but perhaps if you can check for sure.

I was looking at their site recently and was disappointed in the change to their site. It used to be much easier to find what was being sought.

jtk

[Jake Rothermel]

A silly tertiary follow-up (silly, cause I *think* I already know the answer): Translucent or Black Surgical as a final fine stone? I've read they're practically the same?

[Jim Koepke]

A silly tertiary follow-up (silly, cause I *think* I already know the answer): Translucent or Black Surgical as a final fine stone? I've read they're practically the same?

I have a few black stones. No idea if they are true surgical black Arkansas or not.

A couple of my translucent stones actually came from a gem & mineral show. It is a bit smoother than my Dan's translucent, not by much. Of course my Dan's translucent is a slip stone and hasn't been used as much which might explain why it still has a bit of 'tooth'. After the trans Ark I use a piece of smooth jasper. It is more of a polishing stone. Then if desired a strop finishes off the blade. If you want to try a piece of jasper cheap, look for a lapidary shop in your area. My pieces of jasper are about 1/4" thick.

Then like today it was in the 40s and the water stones got used instead. Of course this was after a little time spent flattening them first. I got picky today just incase someone comes up with a thinner shaving than mine in the "show off your sharp" thread. It looks like that one has kind of gone off the rails with mostly talk of how to cheat or what beverage we should be consuming.

Currently I am on a project with a deadline so I haven't given a lot of thought to the how thin a shaving can be made by one of my planes. Though the cedar 2X4s on the shooting board were putting off some tempting shavings after sharpening my LA jack's blade today.

jtk

[Jake Rothermel]

Update: I ordered both a Soft and a Hard Arkansas from Natural Whetstones yesterday (8x3x3/4-1, in case anyone's curious - I'm just OCD enough that I want [need?] my stones to be a simliar size...). I figured I'd start from the "bottom" and work my way to the finer (and more expensive...!) stones. Once I've tried "oil" stones and determined I like them, I'll keep going. On the off chance I don't, I haven't dropped TONS of money on a system, like I might otherwise.

Thanks again for everyone's input; it's been very helpful!

-Jake

[Jim Koepke]

Update: I ordered both a Soft and a Hard Arkansas from Natural Whetstones yesterday (8x3x3/4-1, in case anyone's curious - I'm just OCD enough that I want [need?] my stones to be a simliar size...). I figured I'd start from the "bottom" and work my way to the finer (and more expensive...!) stones. Once I've tried "oil" stones and determined I like them, I'll keep going. On the off chance I don't, I haven't dropped TONS of money on a system, like I might otherwise.

Thanks again for everyone's input; it's been very helpful!

-Jake

Let us know how you like your new stones when you get a chance to use them.

Also remember everyone likes pictures, even if it is just a kitten sniffing the box in which they came to you.

jtk

[Robert Hazelwood]

Nice! Even though an 8x2x0.5 is just fine for freehand sharpening, there is something cool about a big chunk of rock.

I'd check the stones for flatness when you get them- the soft ark I got from Natural was pretty close but needed a few minutes lapping with a DMT plate to get it perfect. I still lap the soft ark regularly, not because it goes out of flat, but to keep it cutting fast. Freshly lapped and with the lapping slurry on the stone, it really does a nice job on japanese tools in terms of being a bridge from a coarse stone to a finishing stone.

The hard ark will probably not be particularly fine at first. Once you've got it flat, if you leave it alone it should get increasingly fine over time. You can speed that process along by working the back of an A2 blade (or something with hard carbides that the stone won't cut well) for a while. You'll want to avoid lapping it in the future, so it's very important to use all of the stone as evenly as possible when sharpening...which is a little harder with the extra width.

I second Jim's request for pictures.

[michael langman]

Jake, Try to sharpen your blades and chisels in a figure 8 pattern, and rotate the stone 180 degrees every few minutes. Every 2 or 3 passes in the figure 8 motion, I then run the blade up and down the center of the stone. This will help keep the stones flat.

I also use the sides of my stones for smaller chisels, so as not to ruin the larger flat side of the stone.

Enjoy your new stones.

[bridger berdel]

You might also take a look at sharpeningsupplies.com

[Jake Rothermel]

Welp, they came this afternoon! I have to say, I was impressed with how quickly Natural Whetstone shipped. Ordered Friday, arrived Monday. I couldn't ask for better. I'm a little surprised (not unpleasantly, mind you) at how darn similar they look. Thank goodness they were labeled! The soft is in the background, hard in the foreground... I think. I can tell the difference between the two with touch; but I admit, just barely. I can't wait to get into the shop and try 'em out. I'll check them again with a more reliable straight edge again but a cursory check for flat looks pretty darned good. Very little light, though I can't be sure that's not the straightedge I'm using.



355535


Also, since Jim specifically asked:
355536

I mean, once I'm able to use them, I'll try & share some more pics. I'm currently falling down the rabbit hole of "Oil? What kind?" and "Oil? Water? Soapy Water? Dry?" I'm trying not to take it that seriously. I think my money's still on simple Mineral Oil, but... Til then!

-jake

[Jim Koepke]

Also, since Jim specifically asked:
355536

I mean, once I'm able to use them, I'll try & share some more pics. I'm currently falling down the rabbit hole of "Oil? What kind?" and "Oil? Water? Soapy Water? Dry?" I'm trying not to take it that seriously. I think my money's still on simple Mineral Oil, but... Til then!

-jake

Thanks, that is good the cat approves.

Mineral Oil works fine for me. It is also inexpensive and available in most supermarkets or drug stores.

jtk