Special woodturning project

[Mark Greenbaum]

OK, folks, I have decided that a special friend of our family deserves a special gift. Next month she will celebrate her Bat Mitzvah, so I have chosen to make her a treasure box. I have selected a piece of the fallen spalted silver maple as the lower portion. I have preformed the diameter which is about 10", and it'll be about 5" thick when I am done. I check moisture with HF moisture meter, and on the fresh cut ends it's about 10%. I've since placed it in a plastic bag with dry sawdust to try to help it get to an even 8% MC. I plan to add a rim of kiln dried walnut, and a lid of the walnut with a finial of ebonized walnut. I will also make a sterling silver horse to make a removable inlay to be worn as a pendant.

I will post some pictures as I proceed. But, will the silver maple at 8% be stable with no pith? If I add the rim of kiln dried walnut, with that help to minimize movement, or cause it to act worse?

If all else fails, the pendant will be a treasure gift, because she's an avid equestrian.

What thinks y'all (Nashville-speak)?

[John Keeton]

I would be surprised if you can get the silver maple to 8% in TN, but it is worth a try. Here in KY, if I can get air dried wood to 10% I am good with that. It should be stable, though any bowl form that large is subject to movement. I doubt the Walnut makes much difference. I would suggest that you may want to consider having silver maple on the rim of the lid so you have contrast. You could inset the walnut for the larger portion of the lid. With the Walnut rim on the bowl and a Walnut lid, you kind of lose the effect of the rim accent. Just a thought.

[Mark Greenbaum]

I would be surprised if you can get the silver maple to 8% in TN, but it is worth a try. Here in KY, if I can get air dried wood to 10% I am good with that. It should be stable, though any bowl form that large is subject to movement. I doubt the Walnut makes much difference. I would suggest that you may want to consider having silver maple on the rim of the lid so you have contrast. You could inset the walnut for the larger portion of the lid. With the Walnut rim on the bowl and a Walnut lid, you kind of lose the effect of the rim accent. Just a thought.

I am mainly trying to lock it down,and try to contain the movement safely. If I can do that, I will be happy. But the band that the joint between bottom and lid will be smallish. The lid will be really flat sloped so I can use about 1.5" material thickness. I am sort of shooting for a UFO type shape, but I'll see what the wood will let me do.

[Bob Bouis]

Rough it out and bring it indoors (though it may not be all that dry indoors this time of year). Failing that put it in a box with a light bulb on a humidistat.

[William C Rogers]

I would use a postal type scale and check weight. Once the weight doesn't change, then the wood has reached it equilibrium and won't get drier unless heat is a factor.

[Mark Greenbaum]

Rough it out and bring it indoors (though it may not be all that dry indoors this time of year). Failing that put it in a box with a light bulb on a humidistat.
It's been stored inside my heated garage for the past 6 months. The ends were painted and the bark was removed, and the flat face was face up to breathe. When I sawed with bandsaw to the circular preform no cracks started to appear. I'll turn it this weekend and see what happens. Other bowls from the same tree have been pretty well behaved, but have ovalized, because they were greener and also one had pith at the rim. My fingers are seriously crossed.

[Reed Gray]

I would rough turn it first, and let it sit for another month or three. Wood 'adjusts' to having bulk removed. It will also be subject to seasonal 'adjustment' as well. No tight fitting lids. If you are turning flat grain/bowl orientation, then warping will be oval, and up/down depending on where in the tree the board/blank was cut.

robo hippy

[Mark Greenbaum]

Reed:
I wish I had that amount of time. The event is March 18th. I will post a couple pictures of the blank tonight, and see what everyone thinks. I am sure the Sterling Silver Pendant and necklace would be a sufficient gift, but I really would like to incorporate my woodturning for her special day.

[John K Jordan]

If all else fails, the pendant will be a treasure gift, because she's an avid equestrian.


Mark, I can't respond to your drying/stability question for a lidded box other than to try to get it to the moisture close to it's final home (heated/air conditioned interior space, I assume), use end-grain turning if possible, design the lid to allow for a bit of movement (unlike a typical "woodturner's suction fit" I like to use a bit of taper), and finish well!

But for an avid equestrian here is a suggestion for something extra you can make, if not for now, for a later present. I've made a maybe 100 of these rider's crops, made to specs provided by a competition trainer so they can be used in the arena. I buy commercial crops and replace the rubber handle with a turned wooden handle.

Not difficult to make, can be stunning with good wood, and every one who gets one is excited - a couple put them on display. :-)

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I've made these for a hunter-jumper competition team, to sell, and for presents for friends and horse lovers such as the girls who come here and work with my horses.

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JKJ

[Mark Greenbaum]

John, those rider's crops are beautiful. I may have to make some of those. Where did you buy the crops to replace the handles?

I took a couple of pictures of the blank. It's about 9" diameter.
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[Brice Rogers]

Mark, since you are on a tighter timeframe, I wonder if it would make sense to:
1. rough turn the piece
2. weigh it
3. microwave the piece a dozen times or so during a day or two (not letting it get too hot) and reweighing each time. If the weight doesn't change that would indicate that it is close to equilibrium moisture content.

I have done some microwaving but haven't done it when I would have to depend on it or am on a tight schedule.

[Mark Greenbaum]

Brice:
I could try the Microwaving scenario, but I think in my traditionally stubborn way, I'll turn the box, and laminate a walnut disk, and make the lip in that. Then turn a lid to match. If I fail, I'll learn not to try than again. The necklace will be the gift either way. I'll post pictures as I go along. The whole fam damily is going out of town for the weekend so I can play, and go Woodcraft if I need to.

[John K Jordan]

John, those rider's crops are beautiful. I may have to make some of those. Where did you buy the crops to replace the handles?

Thanks! I bought the crops from State Line Tack (Short Jump Bat SLT731073), about $3.50 in quantity. Do you ever get over towards Knoxville? If so, I'm just a little north (near Clinton) - I could give you a State Line crop and we could even make a handle. (I have a bunch already made, too.) Or if you'd like, drop me a PM and I'll send you instructions on how I make these.

Did you go to TAW symposium? I carried one around there and whacked a few people with it. It had a Brazilian Rosewood handle so it was special! :)

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

Brice:
I could try the Microwaving scenario, but I think in my traditionally stubborn way, I'll turn the box, and laminate a walnut disk, and make the lip in that. Then turn a lid to match. If I fail, I'll learn not to try than again. The necklace will be the gift either way. I'll post pictures as I go along. The whole fam damily is going out of town for the weekend so I can play, and go Woodcraft if I need to.

Should work!

If you want to try the tapered lip, after making a prototype this is what I did for my last Beads of Courage boxes. You might be able to see the angle of the taper in the upper left picture, fairly severe. A matching taper inside the lid lets the kid replace the lid without the least need for accuracy, actually giving nearly 1/2" of "slop" which goes to zero as the lid falls into place. I chose an overhanging lip for this one. The taper automatically takes care of any minor movement in the box/bowl/lid.

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This one, obviously, was laminated from three pieces, cherry and basswood, so I could chip-carve the words. I used the Harvey Meyer method of partially hollowing each piece before the glue-up, aligning the grain direction on each layer.

I've used microwaving before and it does work, just have to be real careful not to set the blank on fire inside! Also, using the shop microwave oven may minimize spousal discord...

JKJ

[Mark Greenbaum]

Thanks! I bought the crops from State Line Tack (Short Jump Bat SLT731073), about $3.50 in quantity. Do you ever get over towards Knoxville? If so, I'm just a little north (near Clinton) - I could give you a State Line crop and we could even make a handle. (I have a bunch already made, too.) Or if you'd like, drop me a PM and I'll send you instructions on how I make these.

Did you go to TAW symposium? I carried one around there and whacked a few people with it. It had a Brazilian Rosewood handle so it was special! :)

JKJ

Yes, I was attending and on the Planning Committee for TAW. My first Symposium, but I was only there on Saturday.

[Mark Greenbaum]

Should work!

If you want to try the tapered lip, after making a prototype this is what I did for my last Beads of Courage boxes. You might be able to see the angle of the taper in the upper left picture, fairly severe. A matching taper inside the lid lets the kid replace the lid without the least need for accuracy, actually giving nearly 1/2" of "slop" which goes to zero as the lid falls into place. I chose an overhanging lip for this one. The taper automatically takes care of any minor movement in the box/bowl/lid.

354647

This one, obviously, was laminated from three pieces, cherry and basswood, so I could chip-carve the words. I used the Harvey Meyer method of partially hollowing each piece before the glue-up, aligning the grain direction on each layer.

I've used microwaving before and it does work, just have to be real careful not to set the blank on fire inside! Also, using the shop microwave oven may minimize spousal discord...

JKJ

That's about the scenario I am shooting for, but 2 colors of wood (3 if I ebonize a piece of walnut for the finial). I will have to flat lap the surfaces of a bench top with sand paper, 'cause I don't have a planer. I think by Saturday the Silver Maple should be doable. It was between 8-12% RMC on the fresh cut ends. It felt warn and dry to the touch tonight when I took it out of the bag with dry sawdust. I added more dry sawdust to help pull more moisture out.

[John K Jordan]

I will have to flat lap the surfaces of a bench top with sand paper, 'cause I don't have a planer.

If you have time, perhaps take a look at the three-part video Harvey Meyer did on making a box out of two pieces of timber. I pretty much used his method to do my box, except with three pieces (plus another for the lid).

I turned a recess for each piece, mounted in a chuck, partially hollowed, then turned the mating faces fairly flat on the lathe. (this starts at about 5 minutes into the first video of the three) A piece of coarse sandpaper glued to a 2" wide plywood stick insured that my flattening with the gouge was perfect for the glue joint. This is the method Harvey relates in his first video at starting about 15 minute mark.

Here are the three videos, if you are interested.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G7j6KikTV4

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwPofNfkwS0

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dZJEIKZIMw

JKJ

[Mark Greenbaum]

John, thanks for the links. I'll view these later today to get my mind wrapped around it.

[Mark Greenbaum]

John, I watched the links, and I already do that flat board sanding to mate surfaces. But it was a good informative viewing. Thanks. I did complete the gift box this weekend. I decided due to the spalted silver maples size and allowable confines, to just make a traditional bowl and lid. I went to Woodcraft in Franklin, TN and scoured for a while until I came upon 4/4 x 11.75" wide kiln-dried Red Gum boards at $5.40/bf. I only needed 12" max, so $5.29 later I had the raw material for the lid. The finial was the 3rd attempt (1st was walnut - blew up; then 2nd was mahogany - shattered), so I settled upon the center quarter sawn section of the silver maple, and dyed it black with 45 year old (vintage) Fieblings Leather dye. I'll probably have to re-turn the lid because it is a suction fit and nearly impossible for my kids to remove safely. I'll have to make a heck of a long jamb chuck to fit the finial into (as it's already glued in place).
C&C welcome.
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[John K Jordan]

...I did complete the gift box this weekend. I decided due to the spalted silver maples size and allowable confines, to just make a traditional bowl and lid....The finial was the 3rd attempt (1st was walnut - blew up; then 2nd was mahogany - shattered)

She will love it.

Rechucking sounds like a good reason to buy a vacuum chuck! I have also loosened lid fit on occasion by hand with a small card scraper.

Did your finials blow up because of chatter and the tool catching? Skew or gouge? I turn a lot of thin spindles if you are interested in how I approach them.

I like certain woods for finials - "drop" by (ha!) and I'll give you some ebony if you haven't tried it, or some dogwood, bloodwood...

JKJ

[Mark Greenbaum]

Thanks, John. I think once I create and grave the equestrian pendant, and place it inside, she'll really like it a lot.
The blown up finials were because the walnut was a bit loose grained; the mahogany was fine, except the piece was scrap from a millwork company in Nashville, and had a few holes that were used for template mounts. Bad choices on my part. The quarter sawn maple worked pretty well, but it's southern variety and still pretty loose grained. I was going to use a limb of Japanese maple from a tree in the backyard, but all of it is gone to other projects. That stuff is dense wood.

[John Hart]

Hey Mark...sounds like a fun project. I do a lot of these types of forms...placing a rim for a lid etc. I do get movement almost all the time, but generally only on the vessel. Kinda goes oblong regardless of whether I put a kiln dried rim on it or not. The lids don't move much so I end up with a round lid and an oblong hole. Face-grain vessels move more than end-grain vessels. If you could complete your turning of the vessel as soon as possible (a little thick) so it could dry for a couple weeks and finish its movement...then add the rim...it might assure success.

[Mark Greenbaum]

Hey Mark...sounds like a fun project. I do a lot of these types of forms...placing a rim for a lid etc. I do get movement almost all the time, but generally only on the vessel. Kinda goes oblong regardless of whether I put a kiln dried rim on it or not. The lids don't move much so I end up with a round lid and an oblong hole. Face-grain vessels move more than end-grain vessels. If you could complete your turning of the vessel as soon as possible (a little thick) so it could dry for a couple weeks and finish its movement...then add the rim...it might assure success.

At this juncture, I am pretty much done. The bowl material was bone dry (burning my left hand with saw dust - DRY). I just made the lid a bit too snug, and now I'll loosen it up. If it goes obround, no matter. The real gift will be the jewelry. Girls do like the sparkly things, especially a themed piece. My daughter and my wife can attest to that.

[Bob Bouis]

How are you accurately mounting lids in a vacuum chuck? I don't meant that skeptically, I'm just curious. It seems really tough to me.

[William Bachtel]

Microwaving will work if done right. Not to much heat at one time. Half heat no more, 3 or 4 minutes, I wood put the blank in a couple of plastic bags at first to see how much water comes out. That will tell you how to proceed. also don't micro more that twice a day. If wood is to hot to touch, you are using to much heat, all ovens are different, all woods are different. Be patient. Don't do it your way, do it the right way. Hope this helps. With your time line, this is the way to go.

[Mark Greenbaum]

William:

Thanks for the tips on microwaving the blank - but, I've finished this bowl and lid, so I will not be placing this in the oven. It'll be fine - the treasure box will indeed have a treasure inside. I will post a picture of the sterling necklace and pendant when I complete it. Thanks again for the tips, everyone.

[John K Jordan]

How are you accurately mounting lids in a vacuum chuck? I don't meant that skeptically, I'm just curious. It seems really tough to me.

Bob, When remounting turned things, for example with vacuum or even jammed between two padded blocks, I use a dial indicator on a magnetic stand. I use the Noga arm but a dial indicator, not the dial test indicator shown here, rotating the piece by hand, of course:

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It is pretty quick to get it positioned as good as it's going to get. A roller tip is best, otherwise just a smooth radiused or flat flange tip.

JKJ

[Bob Bouis]

Looks like a better idea than using the edge of a tool rest like I do. Thanks!

[Mark Greenbaum]

Here's the treasure for the Treasure Box:
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Hand Engraved by me, the girl on horse was second try (first one was removed because it did not line up with the monogram on the front - horse went too much uphill). That's why it's so wavy in the background.