Engraving machine for our shop

[Jim Steffl]

Greetings,

I've been doing a fair amount of research regarding a possible replacement for our shop's engraving machine. A little background - we are a smaller engineering/manufacturing OEM that builds filtration machines for several different industries. We currently have a Gravograph GT M40DV that we use to engrave plastic laminated push-button legends, valve tags and name-plates. We also do some etching (diamond drag?) on some pre-printed/painted stainless nameplates. Software is Gravostyle 5 running on an old PC with XP. We've had the machine for many years and recently has started to leave extra marks when traversing back and forth on some of the larger nameplates. I've been tasked with trying to determine if we should repair the existing machine or look into a new one.

Other things to consider:
- We have in the past had to outsource stainless steel valve tags and nameplates for machines that are in corrosive environments. I believe these were laser etched. So the ability to do this in-house might help justify a new machine.
- Currently the operator has to manually type in each legend/plate to engrave it. We have no connection between our CAD drawings and the engraving software.
- Operator does have several saved templates in Gravostyle 5 that would be nice to retain if possible.
- Can only engrave 1 plate at a time

Not sure of a budget yet, but we did price out a refurbished Gravograph LS100EX (40W) direct from the manufacturer and that came out to $13,000. My boss thought that would probably be too high to go to our president with. So my best guess is that if we could keep it under $10,000 that would be ideal.

So my first question - is the M40 worth repairing? According to the operator, the tool isn't lifting high enough the further out it extends on the Y-axis. It's fine on the push button and 1x3" tags, but on the 5x6" nameplates its starts marking around 3" down.

Secondly, if we did get a new machine would laser or rotary work best? I like the thought of a laser's versatility. It would allow us to do all we are doing now and do SS tags (with Cermark), but I don't think we can afford a Gravograph, Epilog or Trotec. That leaves a Chinese import or going to an importer like Rabbit. Or used. And there is the potential software issues - we don't want to spend a lot of time learning something new if possible. If it's not Gravostyle then we'll likely lose all our templates.

Looking for opinions and for anybody who might have been in a similar situation.

Many thanks,
Jim
Waukesha, WI

[Mike Null]

Jim

welcome to SMC. I would encourage you to have another look at Trotec given the kind of work you want to do. It will also allow you to do some jobs for other shops and that may be enough to put you into the Trotec price range.

[Kev Williams]

First, read my signature :)

About the M40- I'm not familiar with it other than just watching a YouTube vid of a DV, so I know what it looks like- As to your 'leaving marks'-- there's 2 marks that will get left, one would be the depth gauge nose is leaving a shadow or scratches. If this is the case, you need to polish the tip of the nose cone(s). I do this by removing the micrometer collar with the nose cone still screwed onto it, then put it in my Harbor Freight mini lathe. I take some 1200 wet sandpaper and lightly sand the nose as it's rotating (not real fast, not real slow, have no idea the RPM ;) ) -- I sand for about only a few seconds, just enough to smooth any burrs that might exist. Next, I take a polishing compound stick (used to load buffing wheels) and just press the stick into the nose for a few seconds while spinning. Now the nose is smooth as a baby's bottom :)

Second way to leave marks: " According to the operator, the tool isn't lifting high enough the further out it extends on the Y-axis." Ok, this may indicate some wear in the Y rails train, but it may also be just a simple mechanical adjustment. But the EASY fix for this is very simple- you're operator just needs to increase the lift distance in Gravostyle.
354544
I'm guessing the lift is set way less than the .095 I have set. Whatever it's set at, add at least .060 to it. If this doesn't fix that problem, something else is up...

Next, 'the operator has to manually type..." Gravostyle has a great variable list function that allows you to copy & paste text into it's spreadsheet. From your CAD drawings, you can copy any individual line of text and paste into a variable text cell. Or you can batch copy and paste. You can also import text lists from a notepad. Once you have say 20 differernt names in a list, you can have Gravostyle convert it to 20 separate tags, you send only ONE job to the machine, and the machine will automatically advance to the next name tag after each one-- Gravostyle will also import DXF's-- sometimes that's a bit clunky, but have patience, it works--

When it comes to stainless steel tags, beware of Cermark, as many of your customers will not accept Cermark etching as 'permanent enough'. I do a LOT of SS ID plates, and probably half of them require engraving with depth, and Cermark is superficial. My advice, pick up a fiber laser for those plates. 20w machines are around $5k right now. For laser engraving lamacoid tags, you can teach a Chinese laser to do that just fine, and a small one can be had for under $5k.

So- pick up a 20w fiber and a 60w Chinese C02, and try the adjustments I suggested on the M40... :)

[Keith Downing]

Greetings,

I've been doing a fair amount of research regarding a possible replacement for our shop's engraving machine. A little background - we are a smaller engineering/manufacturing OEM that builds filtration machines for several different industries. We currently have a Gravograph GT M40DV that we use to engrave plastic laminated push-button legends, valve tags and name-plates. We also do some etching (diamond drag?) on some pre-printed/painted stainless nameplates. Software is Gravostyle 5 running on an old PC with XP. We've had the machine for many years and recently has started to leave extra marks when traversing back and forth on some of the larger nameplates. I've been tasked with trying to determine if we should repair the existing machine or look into a new one.

Other things to consider:
- We have in the past had to outsource stainless steel valve tags and nameplates for machines that are in corrosive environments. I believe these were laser etched. So the ability to do this in-house might help justify a new machine.
- Currently the operator has to manually type in each legend/plate to engrave it. We have no connection between our CAD drawings and the engraving software.
- Operator does have several saved templates in Gravostyle 5 that would be nice to retain if possible.
- Can only engrave 1 plate at a time

Not sure of a budget yet, but we did price out a refurbished Gravograph LS100EX (40W) direct from the manufacturer and that came out to $13,000. My boss thought that would probably be too high to go to our president with. So my best guess is that if we could keep it under $10,000 that would be ideal.

So my first question - is the M40 worth repairing? According to the operator, the tool isn't lifting high enough the further out it extends on the Y-axis. It's fine on the push button and 1x3" tags, but on the 5x6" nameplates its starts marking around 3" down.

Secondly, if we did get a new machine would laser or rotary work best? I like the thought of a laser's versatility. It would allow us to do all we are doing now and do SS tags (with Cermark), but I don't think we can afford a Gravograph, Epilog or Trotec. That leaves a Chinese import or going to an importer like Rabbit. Or used. And there is the potential software issues - we don't want to spend a lot of time learning something new if possible. If it's not Gravostyle then we'll likely lose all our templates.

Looking for opinions and for anybody who might have been in a similar situation.

Many thanks,
Jim
Waukesha, WI

I don't know how large your company is, or how much work the laser will have, but have you considered financing a new US machine (trotec, epilog, etc)? I have a Chinese laser (Boss) and love it. But, the speed is a major issue with the Chinese machines; I think much more-so than quality these days. I can't imagine having to use a machine ~60% slower in a commercial capacity every day.

Plus, if you take care of the US machines they have amazingly high resale value, thus making the cost of ownership almost as low as some of the high end Chinese options. As a result you might be able to pitch it to your boss as a high value added at low cost of ownership, or possibly finance the machine through someone who understands they do hold their value. Just my $.02.

[Robert Bonenfant]

Hey Jim,

I would suggest going with a laser over any other method to do small tags. The biggest question is how many tags do you do per day/week/month ? If your doing 50 a week go with a Chinese laser - rabbits a great choice. They are easy to work with and will setup and service your machine, ive been to there warehouse and they stock over 80 machines and every part you would need. The main draw back with most Chinese machines (Most not all) is they are more like a hobbyist machines not full commercial machines.

If your doing alot of tags (500 + per week) then go to trotec - These machines are amazing. We have one on order currently, they are expensive but well worth the money. My friend has one at his shop and it runs 18 hours a day (2 shifts - Sometimes 3). We currently have three Chinese machines and they work but we always have little issues with them - Lens problems, tube trouble (third tube in 6 months) , Constantly cleaning the mirrors because they are not protected in anyway. We deal with the problems but it cost us alot of hours and time = money when paying people to work. Check with your boss and see what your spending cap is - I think trotec does financing as well.

[Jim Steffl]

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Kev - took you advice and we did increase the lift distance and that took care of the immediate issues. Thanks!! I will also attempt the variable list function. I think right now he is only engraving 1 tag at a time but if possible I will see if he can do multiple with the table setup we have.

We are probably doing 50 (or less) tags a week, so it might be tough to justify a Trotec. Although the added benefit of SS engraving might help. Quick question on that - I have a SS valve tag in my hand that was done by our vendor. Is there a quick way to tell if it was done with a fiber laser or CO2/Cermark?

[Rodne Gold]

A $5k 20w fiber may be all you need..it does a marvelous job on most engraving plastics as well as metal. Superquick..it both engraves and cuts the plastics

[Keith Downing]

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Kev - took you advice and we did increase the lift distance and that took care of the immediate issues. Thanks!! I will also attempt the variable list function. I think right now he is only engraving 1 tag at a time but if possible I will see if he can do multiple with the table setup we have.

We are probably doing 50 (or less) tags a week, so it might be tough to justify a Trotec. Although the added benefit of SS engraving might help. Quick question on that - I have a SS valve tag in my hand that was done by our vendor. Is there a quick way to tell if it was done with a fiber laser or CO2/Cermark?

If you can post a good picture I'm sure we can tell you easily. Cermark creates a black coating fused to the surface of the metal (the mark won't protrude down into the metal).

[Kev Williams]

A Cermark mark won't remove any metal, but it CAN distort the reverse side quite a bit. But then, so does a fiber :)

Cermark will be a flat, but usually consistent dark gray, relatively smooth to run a finger over but not 'glass' smooth...
A fiber mark will either be annealed, which (if done right) doesn't affect the surface at all, and will be glass smooth. And, the black is usually black when viewed straight on, it changes at different light angles.

or there's the 'I'm given' 'er all she's got Cap'n!' method where the metal will obviously be engraved, with brown overtones from the heat, sometimes worse than others.

these 2 tubes, one is Cermarked, one is fibered--which is which? -- they're really close, but look for the brown-ish... :)
354666

And occasionally depending on the luck or the SS or both, a fiber can mimic Cermark almost perfectly...
one of these is fibered, one Cermarked...pretty hard to tell the difference, geusses?
354669354674

--I REALLY wish I could get the same fiber results as this, but it's never happened.

[Jim Steffl]

Here a couple of pictures - one without and one with the flash. I'm thinking Cermark because it doesn't change color on an angle.

354691354692

[Kev Williams]

it's Cermark- the main giveaway is the rounded corners of the letters, it's a detail thing with Cermark. A fiber makes sharp, crisp corners and edges, unless you're really trying hard not to ;)

[Mike Null]

Kev
I don't agree with your statement about Cermark. Sharp edges are indeed doable.

[Kev Williams]

Of course sharp detail is doable with Cermark, but rounded corners, especially shown under magnification is fairly typical
354775

you don't get round edges with a fiber unless they're on purpose-
this is a 'full roasted' version of black with my fiber on a 1x3 SS tag-
354773354774

Even as well BBQ'd as this engraving is, corners are very sharp- :)

[David Somers]

Kev,

Just curious. Why is that? (that you find Cermark gives you rounded corners on a fiber but not if you are directly burning the metal with a fiber)

[Mike Null]

Kev

Is it possible that it's a mechanical issue on your machine?

[Kev Williams]

Sorry I didn't clarify, in my brain Cermark and C02 laser are married.. ;) I know some folks are getting lucky using Cermark with a fiber, but I'm not one of them. I tried several setting variations one day, just couldn't find the sweet spot. At all...

So, of you ARE using Cermark with a fiber, you'll likely get much sharper corners. Much of the reason is the beam spot diameter of a fiber is about 1/5 that of a C02 spot...

So for fun, I took that piece of SS above and ran another TEST test :) -- the font's not the same but oh well.

A couple of pics of the results-- The corners of the Cermark version ARE pretty darn sharp!
354793

But once you magnify it, the rastered edges start to show, and the corners are rounded- very slightly, but more than the fiber's corners...
354791

And this test has shown a few things we can learn from :)
--First of all, I didn't clean the SS before Cermarking and engraving it. Notice all the spots that didn't engrave!
Clean your material first!

And second, don't always believe your eyes! All pics above (and nearly all that I post) were taken by my 14 year old F-707 Sony digital camera that just won't die.
But this pic below I took with my newer Sony A330 DSLR.
Above, note how the fiber (lower) lettering appears darker -- at least on my monitor <<<<
Below, the opposite is true. The plate and camera's were in the same place in all shots :)
To the naked eye, they're nearly the same darkness, but the fiber engraving is most definitely a dark brown... :)

354792

[David Somers]

OK Kev,

More pesky questions, just out of my innate curiosity.

When you apply Cermark to steel or other metals and lase it with a CO2 laser or, if I understand it, with a fiber, you are basically using the heat of the laser to create a strong chemical bond between the Cermark and the underlying metal. It is permanent to some extent, but I assume like any chemical bond it has its limits. So sort of kind of permanent when it is done right.

If you use a Fiber you can deeply engrave the Steel (if you have enough power and/or make enough passes) and that is obviously a pretty permanent mark.

If you use your Fiber at different power levels and different pulse frequencies and speeds then you can create an oxide layer on the surface of the metal that creates a mark in shades of black/gray, or even in various colors (assuming you have a fiber with that capability, like a MOPA). And of course, with a fiber with the right abilities you could deeply engrave in one pass or passes and then change settings and create an oxide layer inside the deep engraving in another pass or passes.

If you are using the oxide layer method....how permanent is that compared with Cermark when it is correctly applied (and when all the gods, great and small, are smiling on you)?

Obviously up close your examples show a visible difference between Cermark and the Fiber oxide layer method. How do your customers feel about it with their bare eyes though? Do they tend to have a preference between one or the other? How are they experiencing the longevity of each method?

And if you dont want to waste time answering someone who is just annoyingly curious please just grin in reply to me and I will understand. <grin>

[Kev Williams]

first to point out, the "test" done by fiber above is, as I noted before, the "BBQ" version- that's not annealed, it's simply cooked! Heat so intense it melted the steel into a mottled finish! However, I tried that on some SS water bottles once, almost burnt clear thru! Short version, every different piece of metal reacts different. Which makes almost every job like this a crap shoot. Had a guy bring me a hammer at Xmas time. I told him "black, no problem, I'll just anneal that baby". I had that thing on the machine for a long time, many passes. The closest I could get to black was a dark gold with darker edges. All I know of hammers is their a relatively soft steel, and good luck getting them black with a fiber!

Deep engraving is just a slow routine of repeated hatch passes at high power, medium-slow speed and low frequency.

Annealing involves little or no actual metal engraving, it's simply slow, steady (tedious) heat transfer to do the 'oxide layer' thing. It requires a tight hatch fill, low power, low speed and higher frequencies. As for it being permanent, one of my customers about a month ago took a small part I annealed into their shop to grind some of it down just to see how permanent it was. He said they didn't grind much, they just wanted to see if it just superficial- he (and me) was quite happy that it remained black. How far into the metal the black goes, that'll be another test!

So I decided to take a break and play a bit with annealing. The results are pretty interesting. Each test shows the variables used. Each test involved 2 passes, with hatch angles of 45 and 135 degrees. Every one of these tests will go darker with more passes. The trick is to make this as quick as possible! The last test I did was the bottom line, where I decided to really tighten the hatch AND slow the speed way down. I'm glad I did this, because- on this piece of SS at least (20ga 2" x 3" 304 mill finish), the result is nearly perfect for knife blade engraving! But OH is it slow! (good things come to those that wait!) But it's very dark which doesn't change much with lighting angles (which the others do drastically), and the metal is ever so slightly engraved.. :)

So here's the results--
first of all, who needs a Mopa? :D
354810
Top and bottom lines are dark goldish-brown, 2nd line is nearly pink, 3rd is a purple-pink, then 2 blues.. Cool!
Now, to get these colors to show up requires a specific lighting angle.
I'm supposing a MOPA does the same thing but much more efficiently making the colors visible in all light-

So turn the plate a bit, and-- all color has vanished! Note the bottom line, that's the good one!
354812

These 2 pics show the bottom line better, you can see the slight depth, and the black almost looks like paint-
354811
354814

And a plain straight on shot with no overhead light hitting it directly.
The blue lines show a hint of blue, but the red lines not so much.
354816

I have a couple of knife customers who LOVE the annealing because of how it changes with the angle. Not sure I could duplicate the colors on other metals, they're all different...

I've pretty much hijacked the poop out of this thread, my apologies :)

Back to Cermark, I've found it to be very 'semi' permanent. I have a set of steak knives I etched years ago that have gone thru the dishwasher probably 200 times- it's fading a bit, but still there. In most real-world use, unless it's subjected to sandstorms, it's life span should be tens of years...

[David Somers]

Thanks Kev!! That was fascinating! It puts much of what I was reading about Fibers in perspective. Really appreciate all that time and effort!

Dave