Period detail?

[Eric Hartunian]

Hi all, I've been a long time lurker here, but this is my first post. I'm making a Chippendale chair based on R. Clarkson's book. I've done about 95% of the work with hand tools, and am down to the final details. I'm thinking about putting a shell or some other carved detail on the front apron, but don't know how to do it. Should the shell be carved and then applied to the apron with glue? Or, should the apron have been made from thicker stock, and then the shell carved and the remaining parts carved away? I think carving the shell, then glueing it on makes the most sense, but I was wondering how this would have been done in the past. Thanks for the help,
Eric

[Roy Wall]

Eric,

First of all, welcome to SMC!! There are many experts here and you'll receive a solid answer.

My thoughts are that you should carve and then attach with glue.....the real experts will chime in soon.........

[Dan Forman]

I'm not one of the "real experts", just wanted to say hi and welcome to a great virtual gathering place.

Dan

[Alan Turner]

Eric,
Having never made one of these, I can't answer. But, a definite welcome to SMC is in order.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I'm not quite sure how all of these carvings were done 200 years ago, not having inexhaustable knowledge. The best evidence I know of is Mac Headley's video on making a card table, in which he carves the legs, as you'd probably expect, integral to the leg. OTOH, in his very old video on carving Newport shells, he carves them separately, which hints that they would then be applied to the apron. They are glued to a larger piece of wood for carving with a paper intermediary that releases very easily when he's done.

Conservation of materials also leads me to think the shell is applied, since when making the cabriole legs the pieces that would require much thicker stock are made separately, then jointed and glued in place.

There's also the flexibility of wood choice that would be possible with a separately carved piece. The carver could choose an ideal piece for the carving (grain direction, for example) without having to constrain the apron, too.

And how about those who purchased the shells from outside vendors, who didn't even have inhouse carvers?

Pam

[Daniel Fisher]

Eric,
It all depends. Some decorative details are usually applied, others carved in place. I have had the pleasure and privilege of several classes with Mac (and others of comparable knowledge). As Pam notes, Mac and the others will carve the details on legs and aprons. This is in line with the practice 200 years ago. On the other hand, block front chests with shells would usually have the convex shells applied and the concave shells carved into the drawer front.

I cannot say for certain about the most common practice for chairs. I have seen it done both ways. Often the shell is relatively isolated and, to emphasize Pam's point about conservation of material, would require alot of material to be removed so that the shell could sit proud of its background.

On the other hand, to nit pick a little, the grain of applied shells is normally matched to the background. This is for both asthetic and practical purposes. By matching the grain direction, the wood movement should coincide and put less stress on the glue joint. The size of the wood may not be big enough to cause a problem, though.

[Don Naples]

I have not made Chippendale chairs, but have restored a couple of Victorian houses. One great reference for me is "The Victorian Cabinet Makers Assistant". It is a Dover publication. It has many illustrations and drawings that show construction details, woods used, geometry, etc. While not exactly the Chippendale period, it may help to provide answers to your questions about chair construction used at the time Chipendale did his work.

[Carl Eyman]

Eric, I made ten of these chairs two years ago. I modified the decoration a little opting for shells over the "ivy" Ron favored. Wish I could show you a picture, but Katrina wiped out the site they were on. My suggestion is visit the SAPFM forum and ask there. BTW did your book come with an insert showing a sketch of the chair with shells. Mine did. I think I have it down at the shop; I'll look. I believe the sketch suggested an applied shell. I'll try to get back to you.

[Bob Noles]

Can't offer any help as I am too green :D

Just wanted to say hello and welcome you to the best forum on the net.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Eric, and welcome.

Lonnie Bird's book Period Furniture Details is pretty good on the how to aspect.

In books I have read, it appears they were applied as the grain on the few close-ups appears to not match. That could be a visual oddity owing to the grain running up the raised portion.

I have only seen and touched two old pieces where shells were used. One, a chair, had the shell applied to the front rail as the example in Lonnie's book is. The second, a table such as you are doing, appeared to be integral to the apron, but it was a very shallow, ill formed shell.

In all likelihood, it was done both ways.

Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

...
On the other hand, to nit pick a little, the grain of applied shells is normally matched to the background. This is for both asthetic and practical purposes. By matching the grain direction, the wood movement should coincide and put less stress on the glue joint. The size of the wood may not be big enough to cause a problem, though.

Excellent point, Daniel. I was thinking that the shell's rays would be less likely to chip if they were carved with the grain, whereas the apron's grain would be running horizontally; but probably this chipping would be minimal. I still think the primary motivator for gluing would be purchasing the carved shells from another vendor.

Pam

[Daniel Fisher]

Pam,
I suspect you are right about the shells being purchased from or produced by someone other than the person(s) who actually built the chair. I don't recall Mac or the others ever touching on that specific point.

Most carving was done by those who specialized in carving, partly because they were experienced and had the skill and partly because they had the tools. I don't think carving a shell is particuarly difficult (even I can do a decent one), but it would be almost impossible without the expensive tools.

Dan

[Eric Hartunian]

I checked a few of my reference books, and I think applied is the best bet. I may not even carve the shell, and just do some gadrooning on the front apron. That would better match the gadrooning on the base of the shoe.
I'll try to post some pics tomorrow.
Thanks,
Eric

[Pam Niedermayer]

And then there's Mac, Daniel. According to his card table video, he seemed to make a cabriole leg with nothing all that special in the way of tools. In fact, he made the whole card table with a minimal tool set. Truly amazing.

Pam

[Daniel Fisher]

Pam,
Mac does do amazing carving. In one class I took, I noticed that he was 'messing around' up front when he had some spare time. I walked up and saw that he was carving a ball and claw foot, holding the wood in his hand.

Most of the carving projects do not require a large number of gouges -- just the right ones. One of the ways the experts (like Mac) determine who carved some particular item is to see what gouges were used. Carvers adapted their output to the tools they had, and few had the same selection.

Dan