Minimax FS41 Classic v. Hammer A3-41 v. Minimax FS41 Elite

[Brad Lard]

I have become practically paralyzed (over)analyzing the purchase of one of these 3 machines. I am a hobbyist with a desk job and currently have a 6" Powermatic jointer and 13" dewalt lunchbox planer, both with Byrd heads, so any of these will be light years ahead of what I have or need. Nevertheless, I like to buy things once, be confident with my purchase without regret, and keep them for a long time. Not real keen on switching tools all the time.

I am seeking opinions from people who've seen, used, touched these machines as all I'm able to do is read about them on the internet, look at pics and watch youtube videos. I think I've seen everything 10 times. There's a lot of info on the Hammers but extremely little on MM. So, here are some of my thoughts/questions. Any input is greatly appreciated.

1. Cutterhead - i'm torn between the helix Hammer and the 3 or 4 knife Tersa system on the MM. Because i'm a hobbyist I suspect it may not much matter since I will be using it lightly. I realize the helix is supposedly quieter but i've not seen anything that quantifies that. Furthermore, I wear hearing protection no matter the sound level and don't try to use it after people go to bed. And my dust collector is probably louder than the J/P. As for quality of cut, I can replace the Tersa blades with every project if I want to again since I don't use it much and the cost won't be too much of an issue. Having said all of that, it seems that the Helix is the new standard???

2. Fit/Finish - from what I've read, it seems people tend to believe that the fit/finish is higher on the MM and I assume?? higher on the Elite than the Classic, but again I don't know. I know you can get a lemon with anything but I'd like to steer the other direction if there's a clear path.

3. Fence - Seems like folks have complained over the Hammer fence (is deflection the issue?) compared to the (sturdier?) MM fence. The center mounted Elite fence sure looks nice though i wonder how it will push against the wall when stored. I assume I can just move it to the front of the J/P leaving the back (mostly) flat against the wall. Is there a clear winner here?

4. Tables/Beds - the Hammer lifts up as a single bed as does the FS41 Elite. The FS41 Classic raises up as two beds. Does it really matter to a hobbyist?

5. Blade guard - the Hammer has the Euro version standard which I would like to have, so that adds to the price of either MM which uses the pork chop style which I've seen a number of complaints. Don't know the price but seems like I saw that the MM euro was $200~

6. Motor - seems to be about the same for 1 phase which is what I'll get. Any material difference here?

7. Mobility - the MMs come with a mobility package (mounts to side of body) while I have to pay for the mobility on the Hammer which mounts to the front. Are these worth having as this machine will need to be pushed against a garage wall when not in use. Seems the Hammer version mounts on the front would be nice since it is pushed against a wall. Or should I just plan on buying an after market base?

8. Planer Digital display - the MM elite comes with a "mechanical digital" display but I am not sure what that means. Can't find a picture or video either. The MM 41 classic doesn't come with any digital display nor is it an option. The Hammer can be purchased which I've read is a must.

9.Price - I think I've gotten ok pricing, though on the Hammer I haven't been able to get a "discount" beyond the "sale" price on their website. The MM 41 classic is of course the cheapest, with the Hammer (with the spiral head) being about $400 more than than the MM 41. The MM Elite (which has the 4 head Tersa and about 8" more in bed length and a 2 post planer bed) adds about $1,100 over the Hammer, or $1,500 over the MM FS41.

Price includes shipping for the Hammer but doesn't for the MM as it is about a 2.5 hour drive to Atlanta to pick that up. not sure if that's a wise idea given the weight (shipping is about $350).

Thanks and sorry for the long post.

[Prashun Patel]

I have the a3 31 and am a hobbyist too. It is a great machine and I do not find the fit or finish lacking.

The fence does not deflect for me. I squared it at installation and it and the beds have stayed flat and square since.

I have the silent cutter and digital gauge. I find thieves make the machine quiet and accurate to reset. The accurate reset is a big deal if you need to flip between jointing and planing for similar or mating parts.

I opted to install locking casters to the base instead of their mobility kit.

I do not regret the purchase although I suspect I would not have regretted the fs30 I was also considering.

[David T gray]

i have fs41 classic the fence deflects a lot but there is a little collet and rod u can set to keep it from deflecting if you are doing angled jointing. i added a igaging dro for like $80 and it works wonderfully . u can also buy a insert head from minimax now i think. when i was buying if the price between the classic and elite was 1500 i would go with the elite. on the point of tersa vs carbide insert , carbide blades for the tersa are about 150 each which would put you up into the price of the insert. but then again im a hobbyist i really don't need a heavy duty machine so i went with the cheapest and it worked out great. also on the debate between the finish of tersa vs carbide i never get any tearout and i work with a lot of exotics with odd grain and burls.

[Brian W Evans]

Brad,

There have been a few posts about this lately, so make sure you take a look at those. I recently bought a FS41 Classic and I am very pleased with it. I want to say up front that I don't have any experience with Hammer / Felder, so I can't offer any advice or comparisons there.

As a hobbiest, I feel the FS41 classic is more than enough. I took the $1500 I saved on the Classic vs the Elite and bought a drum sander, which I think was the right choice. The Classic is a very heavy and solidly-built machine and I don't think I will regret not spending more.

I chose to go with the standard porkchop guard over the euro on the advice of Erik Loza, who is a member here and used to be a sales rep for MM. I've never used a euro guard so I can't compare the two. The rep I dealt with after Erik is Sam Blasco. He is a member here as well but I don't think he's very active. He is, however, a great guy to talk to and you should pose your questions to him as well as researching here.

As for the mobility issue, I put mine on a Portamate PM-3500 mobile base instead of the mobility kit. I've been very pleased with this as well and I wrote a review of it here a few months ago. Some have said that machines of this size should sit on the floor, and therefore you should use the mobility kits provided by the manufacturer. I don't know if that's true or not, but I have not had any problems so far. A Minimax rep pointed out to me recently that there are threaded holes on the bottom of the J/P that would accept casters, so it seems like a mobile base might be OK.

I have had traditional straight knives, a Byrd head, and now a Tersa head. The Byrd was nice and chewed up everything without nicking, but the Tersa blades leave a much nicer finish. Changeover couldn't be easier, and the price of replacement knives is very reasonable.

I have heard good things about Hammer's digital readout, but you can get a Wixey readout for the MM machines. I think this is actually cheaper than the Hammer option. I have one but haven't installed it yet, so can't really comment on it.

Raising the two beds is not an issue for me. I wish I didn't have to remove the fence first, but I don't know if that would be different with the Hammer or the MM Elite series.

The fence is plenty solid even though it is end-mounted instead of center-mounted. It comes with a support rod if you're worried about deflection. I've never felt the need to use it. I didn't want the Elite's center-mount fence because of the rod sticking out, but be aware that there is a guard that covers the exposed cutterhead behind the fence on the Classic. This sticks out as well. As you said, moving the fence toward the user side solves that problem, however the porkchop guard sticks out when you do that.

I had my J/P delivered by Fedex. It arrived in fine shape but, when I bought my saw (MM SC4 Elite), I had to pick it up at the freight depot. I rented a pickup and a utility trailer from UHaul, the guys at the depot placed it perfectly with a forklift, and the trip home was uneventful. This saved me about $100 off of home delivery. If you can make it to Atlanta, doing it this way should save you $400-500.

Good luck on your decision. I think you'll be happy with any of your choices.

[David T gray]

i like euro guide much more then pork chop but i made my own.

[Brad Lard]

Brian, thanks for the reply.

I suspect you're right on the classic v elite, but I've already got a drum sander :). From what I've been able to tell, the Elite gets you a longer bed (8"), center mounted heavy duty fence, 4 knives rather than 3, a digital readout, 2 pillar post for planer bed, larger planer bed, 2 speeds. Hard to know whether that's all worth $1,500. I do wonder whether the quality of fit/finish is any better?

How would I go about contacting Sam?

Question I have on the fence. For your FS41, how close can you push the planer against the wall, without disassembling or moving fence, etc.? If the body/cabinet can't get against wall without moving something, what is it you have to do? Move fence forward and remove that rod you're talking about? How deep is the body with whatever sticking out after moving fence forward, etc. I won't have chop to deal with?

I'm assuming for the Elite, you'd have to move the fence forward to move the rod out of the way to store against a wall.

On delivery, what method did you use to get the pallet/JP off the trailer and then off the pallet onto ground and onto your mobile base? I really don't have a problem driving to Atlanta but am concerned about getting 1,000lbs off a trailer without it ending up on top of me.

[Brad Lard]

David, how was installing the dro? Where did you buy it and have good instructions/video?

[David T gray]

David, how was installing the dro? Where did you buy it and have good instructions/video?

http://www.igagingstore.com/12-Absolute-Digital-Readout-DRO-Stainless-Steel-S-p/205480.htm

ill get u a picture tomorrow. its just attached with some dinky angle alum and bolted to the frame of the minimax so a little drilling and tapping and done maybe 45 min of work whats nice about the igaging is it plugs into the a wall wart so the battery's going dead arent a problem.

[Bill Adamsen]

The Tersa head is a nice option that allows for quick change with relatively low cost. Tersa provides a range of hardness and materials. Straight knives can be very loud ... make sure your combination (knife, dust collection) meets your (and your neighbor's) expectations. Traditional jointers (like the Oliver Patternmaker) with HSS knives and a sharpener really can't be beat.

For most, I would think a longer infeed/outfeed (7' or 8') would be a better solution than a wider jointer with a shorter bed. When does one joint more than 10"? With a wider jointer all you do is dull the knife edges closest to you. Used can provide great value though logistics can be more complicated.

[Scott DelPorte]

I have the A3-41a jointer. Its just the jointer, not the combo. It is relatively quiet with the spiral head, but I wear hearing protection anyway because as you correctly point out the dust collection system is loud anyway. It is mounted on a homemade dolly instead of using the mobility kit. I find machines easier to move around on dollys or casters compared to mobility kits because all four wheels can swivel, and the tires can be larger. The fit and finish on the machine is very good as is the accuracy with flattening boards. The spiral head leaves a very good finish and does very well with figured wood. The carbide cutters last a long long time for a hobbyist (like myself). I was in the same situation as you when I purchased it, comparing the spiral to tersa heads. I had good experience with the carbide insert heads but none with the tersa's and ended up getting the one with the spiral head. I never heard anything bad about the tersa heads (only good), but just really liked the experiences I had with the carbide spiral heads so I stuck with that.

I don't think I have experienced any deflection issues with the fence. It locks with knobs in two locations and seems to stay put for me when both are tightened. I would also say that the dust collection on it is excellent. The 41a might have a different dust collection shroud than the 41 because the 41a does not convert to a planer, but not sure of that. Good luck with your decision!

[Barry Block]

I have owned a Hammer and sold it when I moved into a new shop which already had a 16 inch jointer and 24 inch planer.

I have since moved again and needed to purchase a new combo machine and I went with a MM.

I was not a fan of the fence on the hammer, there was some deflection and getting it sq could be difficult, I had to do it after every time after I raised and lowered the bed. Secondly my outfeed table was not flat. It had a considerable cup of almost 1/100 of an inch starting about an inch back from the cutter and ran about 12 inches across the 16 inch wide table. It was enough to impare performance and Felder was not accommodating. They insisted I could correct the problem but I assure you it could not. They were not willing to send some one out to look at it unless I was willing to pay roughly $500. My old shop partner kept in the move.

So like I said I went with minimax. I haven't recieved the machine yet but will certainly post my thoughts when I do.

[Patrick Walsh]

I had a simular experience as Barry.

If i had it to do again i would go with the MM Elite S.

You can get a lemmon from anyone but Felder has a chronic issue with jointer/planer machines, their service techs and passing the buck on customers and not assuming any liability when they are clearly at fault. Really they do, have a issue with a purchase own the machine for a while looking for resolution from Felder and you will soon see for yourself.

I hear MM or rather SCMI just wont pay attention to you if you are a small shop or hobbyist. So for whatever its worth maybe its the same in the end.

I have a AD941. It has digi powerdrive. Whatever it is it is digital readout for the planer. I could never live without this now having it. I would go out of my mind. I have the mechanical gauges on my slot mortiser. Its fine i guess fort that machine but would be hellish imop on a planer.

In the future i will go high end SCMI, Altendorph, Martin, Griggrio, Pannans or the like. Sure they cost twice as much but a 1500lb machine made to put a straight edge on a board with bad tables is useless..

[Len Rosenberg]

I was in the same situation and after months of research I bought a MM FS41 Elite. I am completely happy with it. It is smooth, powerful, and incredibly easy to use. It has a 4 knife tersa head, which is very quiet and provides a very smooth surface. The best part is that the knives are ridiculously easy to change. Replacing all four would take five minutes, max, if you took your time, and no adjustments necessary. I used to dread jointing, now it is fun and easy. The fence is rock solid, no issues. Note that the Elite does not lift up as a single bed, it is split in two. IMO, of no consequence at all. The "mechanical digital" ready out is a retro, very low tech guide, with three wheels showing numbers, like a slot machine. Surprisingly, it is very accurate. The only regret I have is not going for the S model, with the motorized planer bed. Not a fan of cranking the wheel 6" for each change over. This machine has taken my woodworking to a new level. I worked with MM rep Eric Loza, who is very knowledgeable and a stand up guy. He posts here from time to time. Good luck and enjoy which ever unit you decide to get.

[Brad Lard]

Anything you can share about making your own?

[Brad Lard]

can you share a pic of your dolly you made?

[Brad Lard]

My leaning is toward the MM Elite, but am having an issue with the helical thing. Probably nonsense but that's really all I know.

Anyhow, can you send me a pic of the mechanical digital thing? It's simply a readout of the planer level correct? Like what you'd get with the upgraded handle on the Hammers?

I need to put the machine with the back of it against a wall. If you don't mind, can you tell me the depth it would take to do so assuming you moved the fence or whatever else is reasonably easy to adjust/remove after you're done using it? Would you be willing to send me a couple of pics showing how/what would be adjusted to minimize the depth. I have about 32-35" to store it when not in use. Many thanks.

[Len Rosenberg]

353870Here's the planer gauge. Low tech but very accurate. If you move the fence forward, the machine depth is 28", so you would be fine. Note that it weighs 1000 pounds, so moving it around requires some serious casters.

[David T gray]

i would still use a dro just for the repeatability of it. i almost added a stepper motor to my fs41 but i found a motor coupler from 16mm - > 1/2'' then just chucked in a electric drill worked fabulously i got it from here http://www.dumpstercnc.com/couplers.html works like perfection with a cheap harbor fright drill if your like me at all i also took the drill apart and and made the power switch on a wall out of a fan controller and a double pole switch for reverse so i didn't have to lean over at all to move it besides to lock/unlock the table $85 for that + $95 for the dro vs $3500.

[Rod Sheridan]

1. Cutterhead - i'm torn between the helix Hammer and the 3 or 4 knife Tersa system on the MM. . Having said all of that, it seems that the Helix is the new standard??? I'm on my second Hammer J/P. In both cases I have purchased the Hammer straight knife head. The knives last a long time in hobby use. That said the carbide insert head produces half the sound level, and stays sharp 10 to 20 times as long as the knives. The chips are also more compact. It's the only MAN rated carbide head I've seen which is a nice safety addition.

2. Fit/Finish - from what I've read, it seems people tend to believe that the fit/finish is higher on the MM and I assume?? higher on the Elite than the Classic, but again I don't know. I know you can get a lemon with anything but I'd like to steer the other direction if there's a clear path. It may be, however I have no complaints with the Hammer and I'm a fussy person.

3. Fence - Seems like folks have complained over the Hammer fence (is deflection the issue?) compared to the (sturdier?) MM fence. The center mounted Elite fence sure looks nice though i wonder how it will push against the wall when stored. I assume I can just move it to the front of the J/P leaving the back (mostly) flat against the wall. Is there a clear winner here? Probably not, the fence isn't an issue on the Hammer, works well.

4. Tables/Beds - the Hammer lifts up as a single bed as does the FS41 Elite. The FS41 Classic raises up as two beds. Does it really matter to a hobbyist?No, not at all

5. Blade guard - the Hammer has the Euro version standard which I would like to have, so that adds to the price of either MM which uses the pork chop style which I've seen a number of complaints. Don't know the price but seems like I saw that the MM euro was $200~I really like the Euro guard, even better is the Comfort guard which snaps in half to reduce projection

6. Motor - seems to be about the same for 1 phase which is what I'll get. Any material difference here?No, both have more power than you'll need

7. Mobility - the MMs come with a mobility package (mounts to side of body) while I have to pay for the mobility on the Hammer which mounts to the front. Are these worth having as this machine will need to be pushed against a garage wall when not in use. Seems the Hammer version mounts on the front would be nice since it is pushed against a wall. Or should I just plan on buying an after market base?I made my own mobility kit as the Hammer kit moved in the wrong plane for me. The semi-live skid and tow bar design is really good for these machines, easy to move and they don't move once you put them down.

8. Planer Digital display - the MM elite comes with a "mechanical digital" display but I am not sure what that means. Can't find a picture or video either. The MM 41 classic doesn't come with any digital display nor is it an option. The Hammer can be purchased which I've read is a must.Suggest you buy the metric version as the machine obviously is metric. The display is accurate to 0.01mm, I can repeat a planing dimension without adjustment or measurement. The metric version is2mm per revolution, which is really nice, half a rotation is 1mm etc. the imperial gauge is 0.079 inch/revolution.

9.Price - I think I've gotten ok pricing, though on the Hammer I haven't been able to get a "discount" beyond the "sale" price on their website. The MM 41 classic is of course the cheapest, with the Hammer (with the spiral head) being about $400 more than than the MM 41. The MM Elite (which has the 4 head Tersa and about 8" more in bed length and a 2 post planer bed) adds about $1,100 over the Hammer, or $1,500 over the MM FS41.

Price includes shipping for the Hammer but doesn't for the MM as it is about a 2.5 hour drive to Atlanta to pick that up. not sure if that's a wise idea given the weight (shipping is about $350).

Thanks and sorry for the long post.

You're welcome..........Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

It is easy to put a Proscale Digital on most machines. Buy the best you can afford. Look closely at castings, grinding of tables and motor rating- continuous or intermittent. Tersa would be my choice. Spiral is nice I like Tersa. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

353870Here's the planer gauge. Low tech but very accurate. If you move the fence forward, the machine depth is 28", so you would be fine. Note that it weighs 1000 pounds, so moving it around requires some serious casters.

Same thing I have on my SCM planer, has not been wrong in twenty years. I have the Tersa head so it never changes. No electronics to worry about, big plus in my book.

Tersa VS spiral, I have both and prefer the Tersa FWIW. One big plus for me is I always work from rough stock and I can change knives in a couple of minutes to put a lesser set in for the cleanup pass if I am concerned about the wood being dirty.

[Brad Lard]

David, do you mind posting a pic of this? I'm apparently a visual learner. Tks

[Jim Becker]

Sam's contact info:

http://www.samantics2.com/home.html

On the guard subject...my FS350 originally came with the "pork chop" and I truly disliked it. I prefer wider lumber and the "pork chop swinging in the breeze wasn't comfortable for me. I bit the bullet and bought a Euro guard and couldn't be happier.

[Chris Merriam]

I have an FS30, pushed up against a wall and didn't like the little anti-deflection rod sticking out the back. I took it off, and put a little $30 magnet with an on/off switch from Magnajig (I think). I set the fence, then move the magnet up against the backside of the fence, flip the switch to on, and it's locked in. This has the added benefit of being done at the end of the fence, so I get even more resistance vs. setting it in the middle.

Not sure if you realize, but you don't have to take the fence off when raising the tables. Just slide the fence all the way forward and lock it down, then lift away. Doing this increases the required wall clearance though. Mine probably sits 12-14in off the wall...something like that.

[Scott DelPorte]

Hi Brad
Here is a picture of the dolly. Its just 2 layers of 3/4 plywood with casters bolted to it. It makes it very easy to move around, but also raises the machine a few inches which may or may not be to your liking. I used the clips that attached the machine to the pallet for shipping to connect it to the dolly, so there is no sliding around.
Thanks
Scott

353881

[Brian W Evans]

Brian, thanks for the reply.

I suspect you're right on the classic v elite, but I've already got a drum sander :). From what I've been able to tell, the Elite gets you a longer bed (8"), center mounted heavy duty fence, 4 knives rather than 3, a digital readout, 2 pillar post for planer bed, larger planer bed, 2 speeds. Hard to know whether that's all worth $1,500. I do wonder whether the quality of fit/finish is any better?

How would I go about contacting Sam?

Question I have on the fence. For your FS41, how close can you push the planer against the wall, without disassembling or moving fence, etc.? If the body/cabinet can't get against wall without moving something, what is it you have to do? Move fence forward and remove that rod you're talking about? How deep is the body with whatever sticking out after moving fence forward, etc. I won't have chop to deal with?

I'm assuming for the Elite, you'd have to move the fence forward to move the rod out of the way to store against a wall.

On delivery, what method did you use to get the pallet/JP off the trailer and then off the pallet onto ground and onto your mobile base? I really don't have a problem driving to Atlanta but am concerned about getting 1,000lbs off a trailer without it ending up on top of me.


Brad,

The overall depth of the FS41 Classic with the fence all the way back and the rear cutter guard sticking out (i.e. the machine at its deepest) is about 36". The fence support rod rotates and doesn't add anything to the depth of the machine.

For my SC4 Elite TS, which weighs about 1500 lbs, I used a come-along and tow chain from HD to drag the pallet off of the trailer. Once on the floor of my shop, I cut away the pallet until I could get a pallet jack under the table saw. After that, it was a piece of cake to position it where I wanted it.

For the FS41, which was delivered by FedEx, it was (barely) able to fit on the lift gate, so getting it to the ground wasn't too bad. Next, I used a lever to lift the machine slightly so I could slide the mobile base parts under the legs, then built the base under the machine. A long, gradual, ramp made out of 2x4s and ply allowed me to roll it off the pallet onto the floor.

A pallet jack might be able to get a J/P pallet off of the trailer. I would have a few friends for help with this since the trailer ramp is likely to be relatively steep and the J/P will be top-heavy. I couldn't do this with the TS because the pallet was way too long. My vote would be to drag it off like I did with my TS, an inch or two at a time.

Patience, planning, and simple machines (levers, inclined planes, etc.) can accomplish a lot.

Best of luck.

[Matthew Springer]

This is an awesome thread. Thanks so much.

Speaking of depth, can somebody post a pic of the back of the FS41/30 classic? I'm planning on buying one of these two bad boys this summer and can't actually shove the thing against a wall so I'm worried about continually hip checking whatever sticks out the back of the machine on the MM. The Hammer seems to mainly have the blade guard plate (which I'm assumign you can get to not stick out if you shove the fence forward?)

What sticks out the back of the MM? Is it just the rod?

[Brad Lard]

Well, thanks to everyone for the posts especially the referral to Sam Blasco. He was extremely helpful and I would highly recommend him for the Minimax line. I ended up going with the FS41 Elite and actually drove to Atlanta to pick it up from SCM warehouse this morning. While getting it in the shop and off the pallet was not exactly easy, I did manage with the help of a couple of steel pipes inserted under the pallet and lifting up on the front of the trailer. Pallet went sliding right off the trailer without even pushing. Then used an engine hoist to lift the JPup and pull the pallet out. Now to clean the cosmolene off and get a 30A service to it. Again thanks for all the info

[Larry Edgerton]

Good for you!

[Bill Adamsen]

353870Here's the planer gauge. Low tech but very accurate.
+1 ... on my Knapp Planer and it has remained accurate for years. Works great with a digital vernier. As Larry mentioned repeatability is partially a function of having Tersa or other (I have Leitz) indexed knives.

[Bill Adamsen]

Congratulations! Good luck!

[Jim Becker]

Congratulations, Brad!

[Brad Lard]

David, I ended up going with the MM FS41 Elite. Do you mind explaining further how you turned your planer bed crank into the automated thing with the drill and motor coupler. I am not too mechanically inclined and don't follow exactly what connects to what. Have pics you can share?

[Rick Irizarry]

Who was your dealer and where in Atlanta did you go to pick up your machine?