Gotta love modern home quality!

[Mike Vermeil]

To follow up on that thread from a couple weeks ago discussing the cost & quality of trim carpentry these days....

Every (explative deleted for the young) door in my three year old house squeaks no matter how much WD40 or grease I put on the hinge pins, to the point I finally pulled out one hinge pin from a few doors to shut ‘em up. On one of those doors, the hinge halves sprang out of alignment over a 1/16”! Well on my daughter’s room I pulled down all the wimpy trim to replace it with better stuff & found out what’s going on. The trim carpenter installed the pre-hung doors with NO shims at all. He just shot the hinge side jamb right up against the trim stud, pulling the jamb into whatever shape the stud was in. Then on the knob side he just shot about a million 18 ga brads through the jamb, apparently holding it away from the trim stud to keep the gap even along the door edge. Classic.

Doesn't anyone take pride in what they do anymore? I won't even go into how many ground wires I've found never connected at switches and outlets of customer's homes since I moved out here. I guess that's what you get on tract homes these days - especially in one of the hottest home markets in the country.

[Don Baer]

Geez Mike, your scaring me. I will be relocating to the Phoenix area soon and am in the process of working with a builder on a new home.(Not yet built). I guess I'd better plan on camping out there during the construction.

Who was the Builder ?

[Steve Jenkins]

I've seen lots of interior doors that weren't atached to the studs at all. they were prehung and just stood in place then the trim nailed on and that's what held them in.

[Mike Vermeil]

Geez Mike, your scaring me. I will be relocating to the Phoenix area soon and am in the process of working with a builder on a new home.(Not yet built). I guess I'd better plan on camping out there during the construction.

Who was the Builder ?

Don,

I better not say who built my house to avoid inflaming anyone on here who may work for that company. In general, the house isn't too bad, just a few lame things like I mentioned.

The reality of the new home market in PHX is that there simply isn't enough skilled labor to go around. As you know, you can't spit out here without hitting a new home under construction! While some of the builders have chosen to slow down to ensure decent quality, others haven't at all. My recomendation would be to perform frequent, unannounced personal inspections during construction. The more things that get covered up without you seeing them first, the higher proabability of problems later.

What builder are you using?

Mike

[Don Baer]

Don,

My recomendation would be to perform frequent, unannounced personal inspections during construction. The more things that get covered up without you seeing them first, the higher proabability of problems later.

Mike

I plan on that. I did with my present home and already had that in mind.

I am looking at Providence homes. He is a smaller builder and is getting ready to start some semi custom homes out in Queen Creek area.

[George Bledsoe]

I know when I built my house I hired guys that I knew did quailty work that I looked at before I hired them. It cost me more up front but it has paid off in the long run. It is one of those times that it really pays to do the research. I guess what irks me sometimes is that doing it wrong really doesn't save that much more time in the long run, sometimes it is even more work......

[Michael Ballent]

I do not think that there are any well built homes currently in the Valley. Seems like most are just slapped together so the crew can just move on to the next house. We recently replaced our counters with granite and the former counters were not even screwed to the cabinets, just tiny filler strips and construction adhesive.

My parents' patio was laid so that water pooled toward the house, and many other interesting treats. :D

[markgoodall]

It's gotten to the point where I can't even LOOk at a builder without getting mad. They've put themselves down to the bottom of my respect ladder, right next to cars salesman.

Ohhh, the stories I can tell you.

I've got stories about friends, but I'll limit my stories to those that affected me.

I discovered why my roof leaks. *&*$&$*$&%&#@*% roofers ran out of tar paper, so they put shingles directly on the sheathing on half my house.
What do you do if you need a 96" piece of flashing and only have 92"? You cut it in half and leave the gap in the MIDDLE, so it appears you have flashing at either end. Funny how water can find it's way to that 4" gap that's hidden from view.

Every time I change a light fixture, i have to replace the metal box in the ceiling. Sometimes even the wire. Cause they installed old boxed with all the hole tabs removed. Or, cause they never clamped the wire down so overtime it's rubbed on the sharp edges enought to cut down to the copper. White wire cut and touching the metal box. Luckily not the black one. Didn't have to worry about the neutral connected to the ground, mind you. Yes, the white white was now touching the ceiling box, but the ground wire was nowhere to be seen. They stripped it back 12" and left it in the ceiling.

Did I mention I hate these #$@#%$ builders?

Oh, I could go on and on........ but I'll take a breath and compose myself.

[Don Baer]

My parents' patio was laid so that water pooled toward the house, and many other interesting treats. :D

and after re-reading Mark Singers thread on checking framing

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22429

and reading what happened above I guess it's a good Idea to keep a carpenters level in the truck when making inspections.

;)

[Dan Larson]

Mike, I feel your pain. The situation isn't much better here in Milwaukee. When we relocated here last year and were in the market for a house, we were disappointed by the universally mediocre workmanship and design sensibility of the newer houses on the market. I find it hard to imagine that many of these houses will still be standing in 50-75 years. Seems like a very wasteful use of precious natural resources.:(

Dan

[Phil Phelps]

I've seen lots of interior doors that weren't atached to the studs at all. they were prehung and just stood in place then the trim nailed on and that's what held them in.
.... that makes better sense than nailing it against a twisted jamb :eek:

[Dale Rodabaugh]

It isnt only in the constuction industry,its everywhere.good workmanship and service is getting mighty scarce.People just wanna get the job done ASAP and move on to the next one.get their money and run.Take your car to most dealerships and see what kind of service you get.Once in a while you hit it lucky.Aint like it used to be.:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Mike Vermeil]

I am looking at Providence homes. He is a smaller builder and is getting ready to start some semi custom homes out in Queen Creek area.

Don,

I'm about a 1/4 mile from the Queen Creek border in Gilbert - at the corners of Power & QC. Good luck with the house. See you around!

[Don Baer]

Mike;
I'll be in the area on business next week. I'll send you a PM and maybe we can get together for a coke or some other beverage..:D

[Cecil Arnold]

The last two houses didn't have plumb doors. The previous one was bought new and when I pointed out that the doors were out of plumb and tended to swing to a half closed position on the walk through the const. super told me how they fixed it. "You take a hammer and hit the pin laying on concret, then put it back." In their favor, they did come back two years later and replace a wood floor that had neen installed wrong. You can still find an ocasional good house in the rural areas, but who can make a living there?

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I've seen lots of interior doors that weren't atached to the studs at all. they were prehung and just stood in place then the trim nailed on and that's what held them in.

Steve, thats the way I align them. Then I stick a couple of long screws through the hinges.

[George Bledsoe]

In my 20 years of being in the house renovation business I have found you can still find guys that do quality work. They are harder to find, partly because they don't advertise, mostly because they don't have too. I usually compare quaility craftsmanship in houses to everything else out there. Most people want to spend as little as possible for the things they buy (myself included), sometimes you will find good quality for low prices but many times you get what you pay for. It is sad that people will cut corners or flat out do bad work but that has been around for ever. If you think houses that were built years ago are of better quality you ain't done much remodeling work;)

[markgoodall]

good point

I forgot to mention in my post below that my house is 20 years old.
They built just as badly 20 years ago as they do now ;)

[Jason Roehl]

Just wait until you get a house that's had 90 years of Joe Homeowner's bad DIY jobs...oh, yeah, then add about 9 years worth of my own bad ideas... Now that I have more of the knowledge to "do things right", I've found I can't get time, money and energy/motivation to line up to get them done. Yes, I've had to re-do a few of my "young and stupid" efforts from when we first moved in (and before I had kids, etc).

[Lloyd Brown]

I work in maintence for a large building. I know the right way to do a job, but then the boss say do it this other way "because it is cheaper and faster". I have no choice but to do it his way. We don't have time to do it right, but we always have time to do it over.

[Mike Vermeil]

Mike;
I'll be in the area on business next week. I'll send you a PM and maybe we can get together for a coke or some other beverage..:D

Sounds good Don. I don't have a fancy shop to show you, but I've cranked out quite a bit of stuff in it. Just drop me note.

Mike

[Michael Gabbay]

Can't agree more.....

In high school I worked for a local builder who did all custom work. My foreman was a real PITA when I was 15 or 16. If walls were not plumb we'd rebuild. If floors squeeked we'd rebuild. He would ride his crew to no end. In the end, the home was solid as a rock. I keep in touch with him even today and consider him to be the best carpenter I've ever seen.

When my wife and I bought our first house we inspected it regularly and would bring issues to the builder. We were told that we were not allowed in the house until we settled. So list in hand we brought all the issues up to them during the walk through. Some were taken care of properly, others with a caulk gun.

In the end I redid alot of their mistakes. It was easier for me in the long run.

Mike

[Don Baer]

When we bought the house we presently own (18 years ago) they said that we weren't to go make inspections either but we did and caught a lot of mistakes. After the third or forth trip they decided that we were going to do it anyway and left us alone.

I even went up one sunday and ran a spare 220V run that they wanted to charge me $600 plus I ran several 110V runs for future celling fans. I just waited until all of the electrical was done and make my runs alone side the ones done by the electrician before the drywall was up. I didn't install the boxes until we moved in.

I recognise that they are afraid of liability issues but I figured that at the time I was spending $130k I deserved to insure that I wasn't buying a pig in a poke.

[George Bledsoe]

I have noticed many guys doing construction work, concrete, masonry, siding, and all other types of work that have ads that say 25 years experience. I have known several of them and know that the guy is like 30 years old. I know I am not the smartest guy in the world but when I do the math I can see that it just isn’t adding up. It is one of those deals, it is up to you (me) to make sure these guys references check out and you see their work in person. I mean I could run an ad and say custom built homes 40 years experience, well I may have 40 years worth of experiences but it isn’t be in building custom homes.

You really need to check the work that they claim they do.
(AND KEEP BACK A FAIR AMOUNT OF HOLD BACK MONEY) so they will come back and fix any problems you find.

There is a reason they are called INDEPENDENT contractors
That being said I have hired some guys that do top quality work at a fair price.

I think a person could get rich doing construction type work by showing up on time, keeping your promises and doing good quality work. I think you could even charge a little more then average probably. I don't have any use for a guy who does great work that I can't depend on !!!!!!

Enough said:)

[JayStPeter]

I just built a house two years ago. While I think our builder is probably one of the better ones in the area, it was still an excercise in frustration.


Mark,
Having owned a house built in 1950, another in 1975, and now 2004, I can say that poor craftsmanship has been around longer than 20 years. The 50's house had the most solid carpentry, but the foundation was horrible with cans/bottles and other trash thrown in before (and probably during) the concrete pour. It seems like they threw dirty rocks in also to ensure that the foundation crumbled. The '70s house had a lot of squeaks. Both the older houses had a general disregard for water management with poor grading and no apparent plan for drainage.

The new house was frustrating as well, but at least I was able to get some of the big things taken care of. The builder seemed to have a good drainage plan per house, but the big picture was a problem. All the back yards that drained away from the house didn't have anywhere to go overall. So, we've had our yard (and cable TV line) torn up a few times. Each time with a worse job of resodding/seeding. Now the repairs are huge crabgrass patches. But, the yard now drains pretty well.
I tried to point out mistakes and problems during the construction, but each had to become a disaster and require tearing out of finished walls to fix. Many of my doors squeak and don't properly close. Hopefully I don't find the same thing as Mike.
Because of one of the roof disasters during the construction, a couple areas had a ton of nail pops in the drywall. So, we had the builder come back and "fix" them. They rescheduled so many times that I was at work when they came to do it. The guy came in, hammered each nail in and slathered some joint compound over it. Guess what it looks like a year later? I'll be fixing that correctly soon.

Jay

[Cecil Arnold]

Someone had a signature line at one time that seems to cover most of the shortcomings with modern homebuilding: "A little calk, a little paint makes a job what it ain't."

[Richard Wolf]

Good / Fast / Cheap. Pick two.

Richard

[Fred Voorhees]

Yeah, but there is a silver lining in all of this though. I guess. Most of us here on SMC, I would venture to say damned near all of us, take pride in our work and would never settle for doing work this shoddy. Work of this magnitude only opens up the market for QUALITY workers such as we can be. If I were retired (and I will be in a little over six years:D) I might consider going into that line of work part time to stay busy and compliment my other pasttimes, such as bass fishing and the local dirt track stock car racing.

[Andy Hoyt]

Good / Fast / Cheap. Pick two. Richard

Or ---- Quality - Quantity - Cost. Your free pick of any two will define the third.