Roman Workbench?

[steven c newman]

Just got through watching St.Roy and Herr Schwarz showing how to use a Roman Era workbench. Then they also showed one that was from 1500s.....

IF you like sitting down on the job, the Roman version might be the ticket. I guess versions are still in use in Estonia?

At least it was worth watching......:cool:

[Mark Fisher]

I watched it twice....not something I'd normally do. It made me wonder whether something like this combined with some sort of tail vise could be useful....or maybe an English bench hybrid. Sitting doesn't sound all bad, but the workholding options seemed lacking. The engineer in me wants to find out.

[Chris Hachet]

If I had space in my shop I would try it out. Right now I have fallen off of the Neander bandwagon, need space for a few power tools.

However the Roman workbench does seem to offer some advantages.

[steven c newman]

I thought about adding a "link" to the show....all I did the other night was enter the pbs.org and a show's name. It came out before the two with Peter Ross doing hinges for a tool box.

Not sure IF I am allowed to put the link in here......:confused: Season 36, episode 12. Aired back in December of 2016.....

[Chris Hachet]

I thought about adding a "link" to the show....all I did the other night was enter the pbs.org and a show's name. It came out before the two with Peter Ross doing hinges for a tool box.

Not sure IF I am allowed to put the link in here......:confused: Season 36, episode 12. Aired back in December of 2016.....I have watched that particular show, was very educational. I am just out of Florium to add any more workbenches once I get past the build I am currently knee deep in.

[Michael J Evans]

I don't even have a proper workbench yet, but I honestly thought the smaller bench looked like a P.I.A literally.
Was planing some 2x12s for my Bench tonight on saw horses, while sitting on the 2x12s and hated every minute, uncomfortable to say the least.

[Chris Hachet]

I don't even have a proper workbench yet, but I honestly thought the smaller bench looked like a P.I.A literally.
Was planing some 2x12s for my Bench tonight on saw horses, while sitting on the 2x12s and hated every minute, uncomfortable to say the least.

A lot of it is the body posture one is comfortable with. I have been to Japan twice for an extended stay, sitting on the floor or low benches was very normal there. In a culture like that, your body would be very used to a low posture. Here in America we are more used to sitting up high.

Good luck on your bench, sounds like you are using Doug fir or SYP, both of which will work very well.

[steven c newman]

Doubt IF he noticed the second bench in the show....one that was made before Roubo. With a face vise. The end vise even looks very workable, even for being 600 year old design.

Use the Low Bench for a saw bench, and then have the Tall Bench for other work.

When I am doing dovetails, or box joints at my bench, I am usually sitting down on the Shop Stool. YMMV

[Michael J Evans]

I agree.
Even though I still don't see why anyone would want the smaller bench unless they needed a dedicated saw bench and had plenty of space. But different strokes for different folks.
I thought the both of the vices on the bigger bench were slick.

[Chris Hachet]

I agree.
Even though I still don't see why anyone would want the smaller bench unless they needed a dedicated saw bench and had plenty of space. But different strokes for different folks.
I thought the both of the vices on the bigger bench were slick.Very slick indeed!

[steven c newman]

Wonder IF he ever got that Roman style holdfast to work? Shaped like a candy cane?

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

Wonder IF he ever got that Roman style holdfast to work? Shaped like a candy cane?

Yep – but you have to hit it in just the right place. (The end vise on the "Holy Roman Bench" – the tall one – is awesome. You can traverse in it.)

[Warren Mickley]

Wonder IF he ever got that Roman style holdfast to work? Shaped like a candy cane?

I wonder where anyone got the idea that a Roman holdfast was shaped like a candy cane.

[steven c newman]

C. Schwarz even had an old Mosaic from the Pompeii area, showing the low bench, and the holdfast.

[Edwin Santos]

If I had space in my shop I would try it out. Right now I have fallen off of the Neander bandwagon, need space for a few power tools.

However the Roman workbench does seem to offer some advantages.

I wouldn't do it. It is well documented that one of the contributing factors to the decline and fall of the Roman Empire was the deficiencies in their workbenches.
Kidding of course, but it was an interesting show. It's also interesting when vintage tools and furniture comes across Antiques Roadshow.

If you ever have the chance to visit Cremona, Italy (part way between Florence and Milan), I would recommend it. This is the town that was and continues to be the center of lutherie in Italy, most famous for Antonio Stradivari, maker of the legendary Stradivarius violins. There are artisan luthiers all over the place in that town, there might be a workshop in any particular nook or cranny, and most are like a step back in time. The majority of the work is with hand tools, I saw hand planes the size of a fingernail. See the attached photo. I told one maker I made furniture thinking he might see me as brethren, and he just smiled politely and said "molto semplice". The translator later told me he said making furniture, even fine furniture is the art equivalent of crayons compared to violin making to the Cremona standards of lutherie. It was really fascinating. Sorry if I'm taking the thread off topic.

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[Warren Mickley]

I looked around for a few days, but the only Roman holdfast I saw that looked like a candy cane was made in the 21st century.

I was taught mortising on a low bench in 1978. Here is an 18th century French bench. It is oak, five feet long, 12 or 14 inches wide, and has stout legs.
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[Noah Magnuson]

I can't figure out how he made the leap that it was such a low bench from the mosaic he used for reference (linked here (https://lostartpress.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/heidelberg_library_plate34.jpg?w=640)). The cherub in the earliest drawing are clearly working at a bench that is waist level. If I see a cherub in ancient paintings blowing a horn or holding a bow, I don't make the leap that these things must have been tiny for humans. The bow saw in the pic looks like a perfectly normal size for the two beings and it isn't a tiny one being almost twice the width of the bench.

[Pat Barry]

I can't figure out how he made the leap that it was such a low bench from the mosaic he used for reference (linked here (https://lostartpress.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/heidelberg_library_plate34.jpg?w=640)). The cherub in the earliest drawing are clearly working at a bench that is waist level. If I see a cherub in ancient paintings blowing a horn or holding a bow, I don't make the leap that these things must have been tiny for humans. The bow saw in the pic looks like a perfectly normal size for the two beings and it isn't a tiny one being almost twice the width of the bench.
I think its a bit of a stretch to think too much that art is actually imitating life especially trying to convey reality. The artistic license liberates the artist from being bound to reality, hence in this example, the cherubs themselves, If they aren't real, then why would you expect the tools to be?

[Noah Magnuson]

I think its a bit of a stretch to think too much that art is actually imitating life especially trying to convey reality. The artistic license liberates the artist from being bound to reality, hence in this example, the cherubs themselves, If they aren't real, then why would you expect the tools to be?
I think you are missing the point. Unless you are saying Schwarz took artistic license in making it short. Occams razor. The simplest answer is that it was waist high. Everything indicates waist-high, so anything else is pure speculation.

[george wilson]

I say that back trouble took down the Roman Empire!!:)

[steven c newman]

Nobody noticed the SECOND picture, showing the low bench in use? Someone was sitting ON that low bench, chopping mortises, using their rearend as a holdfast.....

First picture did show the "Candycane" style holdfast. maybe it is in the way a foot"pad" was made on it's end?

Whenever I can, I work from a Shop Stool. Spinal Stenosis Lumbar makes the back stiffen up after too long of standing around. I can see where such a "sit-down" bench would help. Would also save me from dragging the saw bench down to the shop....

[Warren Mickley]

Nobody noticed the SECOND picture, showing the low bench in use? Someone was sitting ON that low bench, chopping mortises, using their rearend as a holdfast.....



I'm not sure what "second picture" you are referring to Steven, but when I was taught mortising 40 years ago, as I mentioned earlier, I was taught to sit on the bench and sit on the work to hold it. We used to use a small rug scrap on top of the work to make it more comfortable. A few years ago David Weaver posted a video of a Chines guy sitting on the stile he was mortising. Here is a Swede from 1890, sitting as he mortised.
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[steven c newman]

The "second" picture was overlooked, because the Cherubs drew everyone's attention away to the first picture shown. Second was was right after that one. Also shows a fellow with a "horse".....may have been a statue in the making...

[Mel Fulks]

The "second" picture was overlooked, because the Cherubs drew everyone's attention away to the first picture shown. Second was was right after that one. Also shows a fellow with a "horse".....may have been a statue in the making...
And we can't know how big the the bench is without knowing whether they are cherubs....or fat Angels !

[Stewie Simpson]

Note the opposing grain direction on the bench top.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=354263&d=1487418836

[Warren Mickley]

Note the opposing grain direction on the bench top.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=354263&d=1487418836

Sorry to have mislead you, Stewie. This is from a plate that had numerous items crowded in. That board below the plate, Fig 5, shows how to saw out multiple curved chair backs from a single plank. Figure 5 (chair backs) is actually discussed 14 pages earlier than Figure 4 (low bench). I don't read French that well and just now figured this out.

[steven c newman]

Contrary to popular beliefs, I was NOT around when these benches were in use....nor was A. Lincoln my Driving Instructor.

I brought this topic up after watching an episode of the Woodwright's Shop. I thought it might have been of interest to some on here. Other than that, I have no real dog in this fight.

Anyone remember how many pictures there were? What was the fellows name that did all the writing that interested Schwarz? 1502?

When I am sawing dovetails, I am sitting down on the Shop Stool. When I am chopping things, I am also on that stool.

I have seen worse ways of working wood, too.

[Noah Magnuson]

Nobody noticed the SECOND picture, showing the low bench in use? Someone was sitting ON that low bench, chopping mortises, using their rearend as a holdfast.....

First picture did show the "Candycane" style holdfast. maybe it is in the way a foot"pad" was made on it's end?

Whenever I can, I work from a Shop Stool. Spinal Stenosis Lumbar makes the back stiffen up after too long of standing around. I can see where such a "sit-down" bench would help. Would also save me from dragging the saw bench down to the shop....

The second picture is is a guy sitting at a lower bench in a chair. This is clearly a bench used for sitting work, while the other is a bench used for standing work (according to the pictures which are from very different places/times). To make a point, I never saw Schwarz attempt to work his bench while sitting on a chair with his legs though the other side. I don't think his bench was even chair-high. I am not saying there weren't short benches, just that the one that is the earliest record and what he claimed to have based his off of has nothing indicating it is anything but waist-high.

[Kees Heiden]

354403

Cherrubs were often pictured as childeren. And the height is about the same as the length of the sawplate, usually 50 - 60 cm. Not conclusive but at least pointing in the direction of a rather low bench.

354404

The second picture shows a guy sitting on top of the bench, not on a chair.

[Warren Mickley]

QUOTE=Kees Heiden;2661492]

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The second picture shows a guy sitting on top of the bench, not on a chair.[/QUOTE]

The Roman guy is not sitting on the bench; he is sitting on a stool beside the bench. In this photograph of the fresco, you can see that his feet point toward the viewer, not the direction they would if he were sitting on the bench. And you can see faintly the legs of the stool he is sitting on. I am sure they sat on the bench as well.
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[Kees Heiden]

Well, I don't see the legs of the chair, not even faintly. I only see the bench legs. And his foot is indeed pointed in the direction of the viewer, but maybe that was just the typical akward position people are often painted in in old paintings? Not really important, as I agree with you, they are often pictured throughout the ages sitting on the bench too.

Another funny detail, it looks like he has a bow-drill lying on the floor in front of the bench.

[Warren Mickley]

Yes there is a bow drill on the floor along with a Roman adze (or adze-plane). This tool had a curved handle and like a plane iron bound to the handle with an strap. It was pulled along the surface of a board for what we would call rough planing, a nearly flat blade but used the way we would use a scorp, not for chopping. There are pictures showing both this kind of adze and a plane in the same drawing.

I posted a picture of this Roman fresco on Woodcentral in 2012, but I didn't notice the legs of the stool he was sitting on until yesterday. One leg starts at the lowest point of the worker's toga; the other leg starts where his left calf meets the bottom of the bench. You can count the toes on his left foot and his right leg comes under the bench in front of the rear bench leg.

[Kees Heiden]

Yes now I see it! Sorry for being so dense.

[Noah Magnuson]

Yeah, I remembered him sitting on the ground until I went back and looked at the pic. It is faint, but clearly some kind of stool/chair. Like us, I am sure they used different benches for different things.

[William Fretwell]

Not sure I found the right video's. Faces only, dreadful sound, nothing happening. I did get to see the 'Roman' bench at least.
Looks like a bench you build when you get somewhere, rather than carry it with you. I built one very like it way north at civilisations edge with a chain saw, axe and an antique hand auger I carry. A bench in under an hour! Material cost.....zero! The spruce trees there take 200 years to get to a foot across so the wood is rather good.

Clearly the Romans were way ahead of me. Mine was waist height; just like the Romans.

[steven c newman]

One more tidbit for the nit pickers to go after.....C. Schwarz also claims the same LOW bench is in use nowadays in Estonia......might want to check on that, too....

[steven c newman]

So, what did their workbenches look like?