Is there a JoeWoodworker for VFD drives?

[Roger Feeley]

I bought a pump kit from JoeWoodworker for my vacuum clamp and vacuum chuck. It was great going to one website and finding everything I wanted to buy and everything I wanted to know.

I would like to convert my drill press to a variable speed drive. I would be wonderful if there was a one stop shop where I could select the motor and electronics and sensors.

Any ideas?

[Jamie Buxton]

Dealers Electric offers package deals which include a VFD and a motor.

[Roger Feeley]

I went to their site and came up empty. Can you give me some hints about navigating their store?
I'm in DC and they are totally midwest so I would be mail order.

[Jamie Buxton]

I went to their site and came up empty. Can you give me some hints about navigating their store?
I'm in DC and they are totally midwest so I would be mail order.

Here's a package that would likely work to upgrade your drill press. 3/4 horse motor, 115 volt input, vector drive, speed control by a knob not pushbuttons. http://dealerselectric.com/three-quarter-HP-3600-RPM-115-Volts-Input-Package.asp

[Adam Herman]

I went with a teco fm-50 2hp drive and a used 2hp leeson motor. I have about 200 into my system on a large, old DP. I have about $200 into it. The package above from Dealers Electric looks like a Pretty good deal.

[Dan Friedrichs]

That package Jamie linked to is a really good deal. I spent more than that on a VFD and new bearings for a "free" motor.

Note that one of the nice features is that is has vector control ("Sensorless Vector Drive"), which means it will maintain high torque at low RPM - pretty much a required feature for a drill press. The Teco FM-50 that Adam mentions (a very common VFD), does NOT have vector control, so it won't realize nearly as much low-speed torque (although Adam used a huge motor, so he probably has no issues with low-speed torque).

[Roger Feeley]

Wow! this is tempting. This was kind of an academic question but now it's getting real. The motor on my drill press has been making this annoying buzzing sound and I've never liked messing with pulleys. My variable speed Jet Lathe also spoiled me.

I can think of four considerations with physical installation:
1. Motor mount. I will have to find out what a NEMA 56 is and measure my mount.
2. shaft diameter. Can I use my existing pulley or will I have to find something?
3. Mounting the controller. I could put it on the wall or I could build (or have built) some sort of metal mount thing.
4. Using the existing switch seems like a good idea for on/off. I would use the controller only for changing speeds.



How does it know the spindle rpm? I would think that it gets it's feedback from the motor or just shows you how fast it's driving the motor. Is there some sort of ratio or multiplier you can enter on the controller if the pulley system is a step-up or step-down? If I can use a long belt, then I can probably match the diameter and the spindle will equal the motor speed.

My drill press has the standard two pulleys with a center idler. I would guess that I would still use the idler to keep the belt from flapping around too much? Hence the question above.

[roger wiegand]

Pretty much any good motor shop can give you everything you need. There are a dozen of them around Boston, I imagine that pretty much every city has one. Baldor also has regional technical service reps who are very helpful if you have a more difficult/complex problem.

[Jamie Buxton]

You do know about Dan's recent thread about exactly this topic? http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?250653-How-I-put-a-VFD-on-a-drill-press-for-no-more-belt-changes

[Roger Feeley]

Pretty much any good motor shop can give you everything you need. There are a dozen of them around Boston, I imagine that pretty much every city has one. Baldor also has regional technical service reps who are very helpful if you have a more difficult/complex problem.

I'm inside the Beltway in the DC area and something of a fish out of water. I'm new to this area and I'm still finding vendors. Finding a lawyer here is easy. Finding a machine shop? Not so much.

What I want to do should be fairly simple. Maybe I'm over-complicating it.

[Dan Friedrichs]

1. Motor mount. I will have to find out what a NEMA 56 is and measure my mount.
A drill press is not a particularly demanding application, so I wouldn't worry too much about this - as long as you can find a way to bolt the motor to the head in some way, you'll be good! :)


2. shaft diameter. Can I use my existing pulley or will I have to find something?
If the existing pulley has the same ID, you could reuse it. If the new motor has a different shaft diameter, just buy a new pulley (from McMaster, etc) - you just choose one that has the desired bore (for the motor shaft), diameter, and matches the type of V-belt you're using (most probably a "A" belt)


3. Mounting the controller. I could put it on the wall or I could build (or have built) some sort of metal mount thing.
I just bought a metal enclosure from McMaster and mounted it at the base of the drill press.


4. Using the existing switch seems like a good idea for on/off. I would use the controller only for changing speeds.
This is actually a bad idea. You can NOT put a switch between the VFD and the motor. You could use the existing switch to turn the VFD on/off, but some VFDs may not be programmable to immediately start running on power-on (you may need to press the "start" button on it). I'd recommend using the built-in start/stop buttons. Alternatively, most VFDs have various digital input terminals for external switches - you could rig up external pushbuttons if you didn't like the built-in ones, for some reason (or you may be able to use your existing power switch but hook it up to those low-voltage digital inputs, rather than having it switch the AC line).



How does it know the spindle rpm? I would think that it gets it's feedback from the motor or just shows you how fast it's driving the motor. Is there some sort of ratio or multiplier you can enter on the controller if the pulley system is a step-up or step-down? If I can use a long belt, then I can probably match the diameter and the spindle will equal the motor speed.
The one I bought has a "load speed multiplier" setting, so I just used a cheapo laser tachometer to measure the actual chuck speed, divided that by what the VFD "thought" the speed was, and put that value into the "load speed multiplier". Alternatively, yes, you could just choose 1:1 pulley ratio and it would be correct.



My drill press has the standard two pulleys with a center idler. I would guess that I would still use the idler to keep the belt from flapping around too much? Hence the question above.
It wouldn't hurt. I took mine out - seems to work fine, that way, too.

[Roger Feeley]

Thanks for the good advice.

Regarding using the existing switch, I wouldn't be putting it between controller and motor. I was reading the manual for the controller and it allows for an external on/off switch wired up to the controller. Seemed like a good idea to me because I'm used to shutting it down by just slapping the switch.

I think I would put a switch on the circuit supplying power to the controller so I can wire up a light to the same circuit. That way, I get light to my drill press and I also get a reminder that the controller is powered. I did the same thing for my SawStop to remind me to turn it off. I don't like to leave electronics powered up if I can avoid it. In the case of the Sawstop, I used a Ground Fault Relay to indicate that the SS is drawing power. The relay supplies power to an outlet into which I have a light plugged in. If the saw is on, the light is on.

[Bill Adamsen]

Finding a lawyer here is easy. Finding a machine shop? Not so much.

What have we come to?

I agree with the others ... that link Jamie suggested looks good.

[Adam Herman]

Note that one of the nice features is that is has vector control ("Sensorless Vector Drive"), which means it will maintain high torque at low RPM - pretty much a required feature for a drill press. The Teco FM-50 that Adam mentions (a very common VFD), does NOT have vector control, so it won't realize nearly as much low-speed torque (although Adam used a huge motor, so he probably has no issues with low-speed torque).

It's a huge old hulk of a drill press made by canedy-otto in maybe the 40's. I wanted enough power to do some light milling. No problems with the reduced torque and I left the stepped pulley on the drill press side. plus the motor was "in inventory"


I mounted the vfd to the side of the press on a bracket that had the original fwd/reverse switch and use the controls on the vfd itself.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Looking only at mechanical installation, if you can get a suitable 3-phase replacement motor with the same frame size as your existing 1-phase motor, it will simplify your replacement. Since the frame size defines everything from the bolt pattern in the mounting plate to the shaft size, if the old 1-ph motor's frame size is 145T (for instance), then any 145T should mount in its place with no re-work or adapters.

I have not surveyed and documented vast numbers of motors, but I have a feeling that in the world of fractional Hp motors, the frames are often customized and do not conform to a NEMA standard. And, my suspicion is that most DPs are equipped with fractional Hp motors. Bottom line is it may be tough to find a 3-ph motor to match the 1-ph frame.

So, we might all be following Dan's path, by customizing a motor mount and installing a new sheave.

[Jamie Buxton]

...Bottom line is it may be tough to find a 3-ph motor to match the 1-ph.

On my drill press (a Delta about ten years old) the OEM motor seems to be a nema 56 size, although the shaft is 17 mm.

[Malcolm McLeod]

On my drill press (a Delta about ten years old) the OEM motor seems to be a nema 56 size, although the shaft is 17 mm.

This is what I was alluding to - - the NEMA standard for a 56-frame is a 5/8" diameter shaft. (It's the same for all '56/56C/56H/56J frame' motors; 56HZ is 7/8 diameter.) The good news is that you can get a 3-phase, 230V Baldor in 56-frame in a number of ratings from 1/4 to 2 Hp; the bad news is that your drive sheave won't fit. Again, I think the manufacturers play pretty fast and loose with the frame specs in these small sizes - - evidenced by your 17mm shaft.

I didn't search other motor manufacturers, but you might get lucky and find the right combo there....?

Edit: I also suspect this 'elastic specification' holds true in the IEC frame sizes, but if you're not afraid of a few metric<>imperial conversions, this might be a good search option as well.

[Roger Feeley]

Thanks to all. The package Jamie suggested appears to be a perfect fit. Same motor frame. So I just ordered it.
wish me luck.

[Roger Feeley]

ok guys, I followed Jamies advice and got the package from dealers electric.
http://dealerselectric.com/three-qua...ut-Package.asp (http://dealerselectric.com/three-quarter-HP-3600-RPM-115-Volts-Input-Package.asp)
I find the wiring kind of intimidating.
355577

I'm just replacing the single phase 3/4h motor on my drill press and I don't want to change pulleys all the time. The manual on the drive seemed fairly straightforward. I have that all hooked up. What I don't know is which of these 4 configurations to use.

1. Am I low voltage or high voltage? The driver manual seems to suggest that I'm low.
2. Which configuration do I want: Delta or Y?

[Malcolm McLeod]

ok guys, I followed Jamies advice and got the package from dealers electric.
http://dealerselectric.com/three-qua...ut-Package.asp (http://dealerselectric.com/three-quarter-HP-3600-RPM-115-Volts-Input-Package.asp)
I find the wiring kind of intimidating.
355577

I'm just replacing the single phase 3/4h motor on my drill press and I don't want to change pulleys all the time. The manual on the drive seemed fairly straightforward. I have that all hooked up. What I don't know is which of these 4 configurations to use.

1. Am I low voltage or high voltage? The driver manual seems to suggest that I'm low.
2. Which configuration do I want: Delta or Y?

1. This low/high is referenced to the motor. Look at the name plate - it probably reads "Voltage 240/480VAC", and of course means the motor can operate on either. As this relates to your install, it means you would supply 240VAC/1-ph to the drive, the drive supplies 240VAC/3-ph to the motor, and the motor is wired using the 'low' diagram (because 240VAC is the low option on the nameplate).

IF motor nameplate reads "120/240 VAC", then (I assume) you will still supply 240VAC/1-ph to the drive, the drive supplies 240VAC/3-ph to the motor, and the motor is wired using the 'high' diagram (because 240VAC is the high option on the nameplate).

2. I'll have to let one of the smart guys answer this.

[Larry Edgerton]

Thanks for the links. I just ordered a Teco from one of the links for my Clausing. It is a two speed motor with reeves drive so I do not really need the variable speed part, but just wanted to be able to drill holes with out having to start the 50hp phase converter. I will have to shut the VFD off to change motor speeds, but how often would one do that in one operation, especially with a Reeves drive.

My only question would be what would happen if someone started the VFD with the motor speed selector in the off position? Not worried about me, but I do hire help occasionally. Would it do nothing, or would it damage the VFD?

I think I may make it a plug in affair so I can switch back to the converter easily If the VFD takes a dump.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... what would happen if someone started the VFD with the motor speed selector in the off position?
...


The thing most likely to cause damage would be starting the VFD, and then switching the speed selector 'on' (or switching speeds via the selector). The VFD 'sees' the load go to/from zero to full. This wreaks havoc with the DC bus voltage.

Safest bet would be to interlock the speed selector to the VFD via a spare contact block in the speed selector switch. You may have it already, or can add it? If so, make sure the spare contacts are 'closed' when speed select is 'on' ('open' if select is 'off'). Then wire this contact back to the VFD as a run permissive, stop, or e-stop signal. If the selector switch is changed on the fly, it should immediately stop the VFD.

[Roger Feeley]

I'm at the point where I need to dismount the sheave (new word!) and test mount it on the new motor. I got the motor running last night (thanks to some helpful PMs from Jamie). If it doesn't fit, I will try to find something online. I think I'm at a point where the rest ought to be doable.

[Larry Edgerton]

The thing most likely to cause damage would be starting the VFD, and then switching the speed selector 'on' (or switching speeds via the selector). The VFD 'sees' the load go to/from zero to full. This wreaks havoc with the DC bus voltage.

Safest bet would be to interlock the speed selector to the VFD via a spare contact block in the speed selector switch. You may have it already, or can add it? If so, make sure the spare contacts are 'closed' when speed select is 'on' ('open' if select is 'off'). Then wire this contact back to the VFD as a run permissive, stop, or e-stop signal. If the selector switch is changed on the fly, it should immediately stop the VFD.

OK, I pulled the drum switch out, and although I understand what you are talking about in principal, ya, that is way to much wiring for my limited knowledge. So.... another question

I want to leave the drum switch where it is for use as an emergency shutoff, much more convenient in the case of a drilling emergency than a keypad. I know I can not turn on the load and not damage the VFD, but would suddenly interrupting the load on that rare occasion cause harm? Assuming that 99.999% of the time it would be shut off with the VFD control panel.

[Roger Feeley]

Again, thanks to all. Last weekend, I removed the old motor and installed the new one. I wired up the original switch to be an external run/stop switch for the controller and that works fine. So I can use the original switch to turn it on and off and the original light switch still does it's thing.

I'm a bit concerned that there is a ventilation fan on the controller. Won't that get dusty? I mounted the controller on the wall next to the drill press.

The only thing left to do is to take the step pulley back off the motor and take it to have a keyway cut. There's a local machine shop that will cut the keyway for $50. I figure that's better than going out and trying to hunt for a duplicate step pulley. I did some searching and didn't find much.

Again, thanks to all for the good advice.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Are you purposely keeping the step pulley on the motor? You could probably buy a new single sheave with the right bore and keyway for ~$10 from McMaster, and avoid having to have a keyway cut in your step pulley.

Now that I think about it: how was it held to the old motor?

[Malcolm McLeod]

OK, I pulled the drum switch out, and although I understand what you are talking about in principal, ya, that is way to much wiring for my limited knowledge. So.... another question

I want to leave the drum switch where it is for use as an emergency shutoff, much more convenient in the case of a drilling emergency than a keypad. I know I can not turn on the load and not damage the VFD, but would suddenly interrupting the load on that rare occasion cause harm? Assuming that 99.999% of the time it would be shut off with the VFD control panel.

Larry, sorry for the lag. This thread sort of fell off my radar.

You can probably use the drum switch to open the circuit from the VFD to the motor and not do any damage. Most of the time ...but I'd hate to have give odds on this never causing any damage.

The real risk is on closing the drum switch. For example, in sequence: #1 The drum switch is closed and VFD is OFF. #2 You start the VFD, tool ramp up to the preset speed. #3 You have a problem and stop the machine by opening the drum switch. #4 Quickly correct the problem and close the drum switch. #5 VFD output bus never powered down and is now hit with full load of machine starting. This 'shock load' is what is most likely to damage a VFD. You can avoid it by inserting a step "#3b - Stop the VFD via keypad", the only question is will you remember to do so - - every single time.

A much safer method is to use the same drum switch, but wired as an e-stop, feeding back to the IO terminals on the VFD. (VFD output is wired direct to motor.) You can then 'open' the drum switch when a problem occurs, the VFD sees the 'stop command', decelerates the machine, and is ready to start again. No damage.

[Roger Feeley]

Larry, sorry for the lag. This thread sort of fell off my radar.

You can probably use the drum switch to open the circuit from the VFD to the motor and not do any damage. Most of the time ...but I'd hate to have give odds on this never causing any damage.

The real risk is on closing the drum switch. For example, in sequence: #1 The drum switch is closed and VFD is OFF. #2 You start the VFD, tool ramp up to the preset speed. #3 You have a problem and stop the machine by opening the drum switch. #4 Quickly correct the problem and close the drum switch. #5 VFD output bus never powered down and is now hit with full load of machine starting. This 'shock load' is what is most likely to damage a VFD. You can avoid it by inserting a step "#3b - Stop the VFD via keypad", the only question is will you remember to do so - - every single time.

A much safer method is to use the same drum switch, but wired as an e-stop, feeding back to the IO terminals on the VFD. (VFD output is wired direct to motor.) You can then 'open' the drum switch when a problem occurs, the VFD sees the 'stop command', decelerates the machine, and is ready to start again. No damage.

For what it's worth, my VFD has terminals for an external run/stop switch. I re-tasked the original switch on my drill press to be that external switch and it works great. I still use the switch I've used for the last 35 years. The only reason to touch the VFD is to change speeds.

I could put an external potentiometer to control speed as well and I might do that. The original trigger for this whole enterprise was that the original motor was making a weird buzzing noise (capacitor?) so I decided to upgrade. It turns out that the VFD isn't silent and I might like to stick that in a box or something. So an external pot might be in my future.

Also, I note that the VFD has a ventilation fan. That give me some concern about dust. Maybe a dustproof box would be a good idea.

[Roger Feeley]

The motor is in but now I'm having torque problems. I was drilling some 7/32" in some angle iron and the motor stalled just as the bit was breaking through. Then I went to countersink the holes and I had to be super careful or it would stall. I checked to make sure the pulleys were tight. It's the motor.

The ratio on the pulleys is just about 1:1. So this is the equivilant of mounting a 7/32" bit on the end of the motor shaft.

There's stuff in the VFD manual about torque compensation but it's written for people who do this for a living. Any advice?

Here's the link to the manual at Dealers Electric.
http://www.dealerselectric.com/images/Products/teco/L510instructionmanual.pdf



(http://www.dealerselectric.com/images/Products/teco/L510instructionmanual.pdf)

[Malcolm McLeod]

The motor is in but now I'm having torque problems. I was drilling some 7/32" in some angle iron and the motor stalled just as the bit was breaking through. Then I went to countersink the holes and I had to be super careful or it would stall. I checked to make sure the pulleys were tight. It's the motor.

The ratio on the pulleys is just about 1:1. So this is the equivilant of mounting a 7/32" bit on the end of the motor shaft.

There's stuff in the VFD manual about torque compensation but it's written for people who do this for a living. Any advice?

Here's the link to the manual at Dealers Electric.
http://www.dealerselectric.com/images/Products/teco/L510instructionmanual.pdf



(http://www.dealerselectric.com/images/Products/teco/L510instructionmanual.pdf)

See page 8-3 in the manual. Follow the directions to set parameter 01-10. Default is 0.0, and I'd recommend you set it to 1.0, then test:
1-Set your display to show instantaneous current, and retry your drilling operation on a sample.
2-Monitor the amps displayed to make sure you aren't exceeding the drive's max current limit while drilling.
3-Adjust 01-10 up if the drive stalls, or down if the current is excessive.
4-Repeat until you're happy with the test result.

[Dan Friedrichs]

The VFD you bought has two "modes" of operation: V/F and SLV. V/F is the "standard", and SLV is the new high-tech way that gives much higher low-speed torque.

Malcolm's instructions explain how to adjust the "torque compensation", which is a trick for increasing low-speed torque when operating in V/F mode, but torque compensation doesn't apply to SLV mode. SLV mode provides much higher low-speed torque than V/F (even with torque compensation) can provide.

You paid extra money for the SLV mode, so you should use it.

Look at page 43 of the manual. Parameter 00-00 chooses between V/F and SLV. Set this parameter to "1" to switch to SLV. Once you've done that, the "Group 01" parameters (01-xx) don't mean anything. Set the relevant motor parameters (rated speed, rated voltage, etc) in Group 02, then set 02-07 ("Motor Auto Tuning") to "1" and press start (or something like that). The VFD should make some noises and tune itself to the motor, then you're ready to go.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Look at page 43 of the manual. ....

What?! You expect me to read the entire manual?:confused: Ya' gotta be kiddin' me!