Times UP - I need a 3hp shaper - recommendations please

[Sam Murdoch]

After all this time I say UNCLE. I need a 3HP shaper for an upcoming project (80+ hard maple cabinet and pantry doors) that will require repeatable, accurate and solid results way to join rails and stiles on all these doors. I will certainly find other uses for the shaper though I have resisted making the commitment to owning one. I have no solid idea yet :confused: as to where I will stand this new machine in my very small shop. Might be a use and sell deal if I can't find a spot to store in between rollouts to use.

I'm expecting to spend $1,500.00 +. I have looked on CL in ME and MA for a used shaper but can only find 3HP JET (at nearly new cost) or smaller shapers. I'd rather buy new in any case, for the warranty, especially if there is a consideration that after this job I would sell it.

• Recommendations for the best I can buy in that price range.

• Grizzly, Delta, Jet, Laguna - any others? Are they basically all alike with minor refinements or differences?

or the WoodTek 2HP from Woodworker's Supply?

• Don't have room for a 5HP - barely can make room for the 3HP - will definitely be on a mobile base.

• Don't really have any desire to spend that kind of money on a router lift set up.

• 240V expected

• I already have some heads and insert knives from the old days

Please and thank you for any feedback. I appreciate your time.

Any one have one for sale Me, NH, MA ??? :)


Cheers, Sam

[Darcy Warner]

Better budget for a feeder as well.

[Cary Falk]

I'm not a shaper expert by any means but a good fence to me is everything. I started out with a Grizzly G1026. The fence adjustments always were a pain and the spindles were also. When I went to upgrade I looked at PM, Jet, Laguna, , Baileigh and Grizzly. The upper models of the grizzly didn't look like thy had a much better fence then I already had. I lusted after the PM2700 but it was too much money. The Jet JWS-35x3 had a fence very similar to the PM2700. I also didn't care for the fence design of the Baileigh. I liked the Laguna Pro Shaper 5hp, but I was worried their CS. I ended up going with the Laguna because Woodcraft was having a sale, they are currently having 10% now, and it was cheaper then Jet and PM. The Laguna is really a close copy of the PM. The manual is obviously a copy of the PM with some things changed. There are pictures of the PM fence in it and it talks about adjustments that are not available on the Laguna.

I am very happy with the Laguna. The spindle and fence are easy to adjust. It also has a lot of other nice features. I posted a bunch of pictures on here when I got it. I am not trying to steer you to the Laguna. I am just giving you a reference. I normally don't recommend Jet because I think they are overpriced but Jet JWS 35x3 might work for you.

[David Kumm]

I think your budget is low for what you are trying to do. Hard maple in quantity will take forever with the multiple passes a 3 hp shaper will take. You are spinning big cutters and it is worth some mass to the quill and a good feeder. 3 hp is fine for hobby work but a 5 hp with a good fence and shaper is more in the 4K range. Dave

[David Eisenhauer]

I agree with what David K says in reference to budget, but I was able to use a 3hp Weaver set up (one shaper only, not the four shaper setup recommended) specifically to turn out raised panels for cabinet doors, furniture case sides, etc in my very small commercial shop for many years. I did not have a power feeder, due to shop size constraints, but I made lots of raised panel doors out of harder woods such as pecan in a one-pass operation that worked well. Slightly softer woods went quicker, harder woods went slower. I used steel cutters. Certainly 5hp and a power feeder (especially) would be desirable, but sometimes you have to go slower.

[Sam Murdoch]

You don't think that a rail and stile cutters set will go through 3/4" stock in one pass - all 4-1/2" wide stock? No raised panel work - just ply panels.
I simply cannot house a 5 hp machine or a power feeder, so the 3HP are my only options. I know there is a compromise but this would be the hardest work I will ever put it through (or put through it).

[brent stanley]

You don't think that a rail and stile cutters set will go through 3/4" stock in one pass - all 4-1/2" wide stock? No raised panel work - just ply panels.
I simply cannot house a 5 hp machine or a power feeder, so the 3HP are my only options. I know there is a compromise but this would be the hardest work I will ever put it through (or put through it).


Hi, I'm going to take a different position that some others. I have made many many oak and maple kitchen doors with my 2HP Wadkin Bursgreen shaper. I feed the machine on one end and My wife grabs them on the other end and we do hundreds of them that way with no problem. The real problem with a lower powered machine is if you're panel raising. I raise panels on mine, but two passes at the lowest speed for sure, so that will hit your production. If you're not raising panels that often (or don't expect to) you can get away with the smaller unit. I have a 1700 pound 7.5HP shaper too that I can use when needed, and even though it is well made, the smaller machine is just so much easier to use and dial in. I use the small one whenever I can.

If space is a concern and you're not panel raising in the immediate future AND there's even a slim chance you'll end up in a bigger shop in the future (providing room for a larger machine) get the smaller one because you'll end up keeping them both.

p.s. Just noticed your last post where you said you weren't panel raising on this job!

[David Eisenhauer]

Certainly you can stick and cope 3/4" material in one pass with a 3hp unit sans power feeder. I have done it for years. I just don't know whether or not a $1,500 setup will do the job as I have not looked into shaper and cutter prices for many, many years. I spent an amount more than that 30 years or so ago to get what I called then an entry level small shop setup. IMO, the Weaver jigs were the game changer and I believe they were employed by owners of other branded machines when they could be adapted to the jigs. Any shaper can have a stacked or solid shaper cutter installed on the shank (protruding from a fence) and spun up to speed for material to be passed across the cutter. For stick and coping, the jigs to SAFELY hold and control the material for a consistent result in the material is what is a main requirement for a commercial setting.

[Patrick Walsh]

There is a decent SCMi unit local to me in Mass on craigslist. Im sure you have seen it by now. Im pretty sure its a three phase machine though. A VFD could be a option. I put one on my slot mortiser and it was pretty simple and im a dummy.

I would not want to cope and stick without a power feeder and sliding table. You could get the Aigner small workpiece holder for the rails if a slidng table is not in the cards. I also would not want to be bothered by anything without a decent fence.

I have a Felder F700Z and i need another machine as having just one shaper is a pain in the rear. My Felder is just fine dont get me wrong, its nothing special but it is also not a $1500 20 year old Delta or Powermatic with a junk fence. It does what i need. I payed $3000 for it used from a hobby shop where it had seen very very little use.

My second machine will need to be a step up. By comparison to true commercial machine, Martin, SCMI, It is a pile of sheet metal junk. Point is i would not purchase a $1500 setup. You should be able to get a decent used power feeder for $500 give or take.

[brent stanley]

Good point. Don't be turned off by a 3 Phase unit as long as it's 2## volts, because a VFD is a great addition to a shaper. Infinitely variable speed with no belt changes, reverse and motor braking. All great things.

[David Kumm]

A Felder 700 or older 7 series is a pretty good choice for an all around mid sized shaper. You may not need one that sized now but if you do other projects - passage doors for example - you will quickly wish for a little more capacity. I made a lot of stuff with a little 3 hp Seco which was pretty decent for it's price. When I got the Felder F7 I thought it was a huge step up and cut down the time spent and the sanding needed big time. Now the Felder seems small compared to the capacity of some other machines. I've a SCMI T130 slider and a Martin T21- both less than 4K. If this is your last shaper project, don't spend more than you need- most shops outsource cabinet doors, but if you find like shaping, you will outgrow the smaller machine in a hurry. I've got 5 now. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

Over the years I've had to use some real small shapers for that ,and the ones with 10,000 rpm worked ok with carbide sets, the ones with just 8000 did not.

[Sam Murdoch]

I've had the big shop with ALL the equipment - shaper gangs, sliding TS, CNC , wide belts - you get it. Now it's just me in a shop that will never be expanded (by me). I have learned over 30 + years to work well with less when needed but this one job is too much for my current set up. I don't want to walk away for the cost of a shaper. Much bigger than I am asking about though and the #s and/or the space considerations don't make sense - even for a long time client. I'm not farming out the work nor renting a bigger space for a month.

I agree with the power feeder advice so will factor that in. Just thought that we could discuss the pros and cons of the few models selling under $2,000.00.
I will continue to look for used but still not interested in anything bigger. In this case size really matters.

Thank you for the feedback and info so far.

[Sam Murdoch]

Over the years I've had to use some real small shapers for that ,and the ones with 10,000 rpm worked ok with carbide sets, the ones with just 8000 did not.

That's a valuable bit of info Mel. Thanks.

[Darcy Warner]

Just order the doors and drawers

[Martin Wasner]

Just order the doors and drawers

That's my take as well.

[Rich Riddle]

I thought only the more expensive shapers ran at 10,000 rpm or above. Jet made that small router table/shaper that ran at high speeds with the ability to use both router and shaper bits, but I think that is a 2HP motor.

Sam, did you see the vintage Delta Rockwell for $250 in Maine? It says the 3 phase motor needs a capacitor. That seems strange. But you could get a replacement motor for a lot less than your budget and covert it to split phase or put a VFD on it and keep the 3 phase motor. Those full sized Delta machines were monsters.

[Mel Fulks]

Never looked up the serial numbers or such but I think the 8000 are older and were meant to be used with steel cutters. The little shaper manual that they put out long time ago only addresses steel cutters. I think the ones with 10,000 came in
when carbide stuff started.

[Darcy Warner]

10k rpm is the max rpm of any shaper I have ever owned. That is screaming for a large machine.

4500 to 7000 rpm is perfect speeds for most typical shaper cutters.

I have several heads that are only rated for 6k rpm.

[Sam Murdoch]

Just order the doors and drawers

Well - there is always that but why would I turn away that much work for want of one machine? Yes, buying a shaper will cut into the profit but the shaper will still be there when the job is done to make me more money. With manufacturing, finishing and install this represents a great job for me. Just need 1 new tool (and a few accessories). :cool:


I thought only the more expensive shapers ran at 10,000 rpm or above. Jet made that small router table/shaper that ran at high speeds with the ability to use both router and shaper bits, but I think that is a 2HP motor.

Sam, did you see the vintage Delta Rockwell for $250 in Maine? It says the 3 phase motor needs a capacitor. That seems strange. But you could get a replacement motor for a lot less than your budget and covert it to split phase or put a VFD on it and keep the 3 phase motor. Those full sized Delta machines were monsters.

Thanks Rich. I'll go look again. I have until the end of April so something right could turn up. Posting today to start getting my head around the options.

[Martin Wasner]

Just order the doors and drawers.


Well - there is always that but why would I turn away that much work for want of one machine? Yes, buying a shaper will cut into the profit but the shaper will still be there when the job is done to make me more money. With manufacturing, finishing and install this represents a great job for me. Just need 1 new tool (and a few accessories). :cool:



Because you don't have the space or budget to do it correctly.

You can find some deals on shapers, but you can figure heads will be about $600 a pop with knives and backers, you'll need at least two. A power feeder is $1200-ish for an eight speed, four wheeler. A $1500 budget doesn't go very far.

[Sam Layton]

Sam,

I have two 3 hp Delta shapers with 3/4" spindles. I have plenty of power for one pass. I have one Power feeder which is really handy.

Sam

[Cary Falk]

I would advise against any Delta shaper. Spindles are hard to come by if they aren't included. If you want a router bit collet, plan on looking even harder and ponying up a lot of money. There are 2 different spindles, a long and a short taper so be aware. From what I read, the bearings in the spindle cartridge are a pain to get changed. Delta is gone and not worth the hassle in my opinion.

[Darcy Warner]

Because you don't have the space or budget to do it correctly.

You can find some deals on shapers, but you can figure heads will be about $600 a pop with knives and backers, you'll need at least two. A power feeder is $1200-ish for an eight speed, four wheeler. A $1500 budget doesn't go very far.

I can still make more and work less ordering the parts, every time.

[Larry Edgerton]

Come on over and use my shop Sam, bring a sleeping bag and beer!

I have downsized as well, but not so much the equipment, so have too much stuff in too little space. Know exactly what you are avoiding.

Just a thought Sam: Would a nice combination machine allow you to get rid of what you have and improve your space/capabilities? Its a route I have thought about myself, but for now I am attached to my current stuff. Now, if I could talk David out of the Knapp he has collecting dust, hmmm......

I made a lot of cabinet doors on a 3hp Delta before I went on my own, and when I went on my own I made a ton with a 4hp Minimax,, so what you are after is not impossible. I would at least spend some time looking for a little Minimax, the one I had was way better than a Delta, and not much bigger. I will keep an eye on the used market for you just in case a little gem comes up.

I also have a well worn 1/4hp feeder that still works fine that you can have for free.

If I can help you in any way let me know.

Larry

[Darcy Warner]

I would advise against any Delta shaper. Spindles are hard to come by if they aren't included. If you want a router bit collet, plan on looking even harder and ponying up a lot of money. There are 2 different spindles, a long and a short taper so be aware. From what I read, the bearings in the spindle cartridge are a pain to get changed. Delta is gone and not worth the hassle in my opinion.

Hard to come by? There were probably more of those made than any other shaper. There are numerous sources for rebuilt spindles as well.
Why do people want to run router bits in a shaper? The speed is not there for that.

[Bradley Gray]

I have had good luck ordering doors and drawers. Used to have employees but don't want to go there again. Ordering parts allows me to take on jobs I would have to pass on because of deadlines or because I don't want to work 24/7 anymore.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm going with the "just order them as well" because if you've done this for 30 years you already know that you cannot build them cheaper than a door shop.....unless you work for free??? Buy them mark them up and make money the easy way while your also making money on the stuff your building;)

If you do want a shaper I highly recommend used. You already mentioned you'll probably resell it down the road, a new machine will lose a huge chunk of it's value, a used won't.

That SCM is on the high side to me, and likely too big for your needs anyway, but I just looked and saw several other machines that would get it done. Oh and Delta shaper spindles are still being made and sold so no worry there.

good luck,
JeffD

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah the guy in So erville with th SCMI machien has been trying to sell his shop for a while. If the price was righ the machine might be in my shop by now. Its not though because the price in NOT right and really i need want more machne than that.


I'm going with the "just order them as well" because if you've done this for 30 years you already know that you cannot build them cheaper than a door shop.....unless you work for free??? Buy them mark them up and make money the easy way while your also making money on the stuff your building;)

If you do want a shaper I highly recommend used. You already mentioned you'll probably resell it down the road, a new machine will lose a huge chunk of it's value, a used won't.

That SCM is on the high side to me, and likely too big for your needs anyway, but I just looked and saw several other machines that would get it done. Oh and Delta shaper spindles are still being made and sold so no worry there.

good luck,
JeffD

[John P Clark]

I have a Jet 35x with the 3 hp motor and 1.25" spindle, using a 6.5" diameter raised panel cutter, it easily cut with one pass with a power feeder. It never bogged down and I ran it between 4000 to 6000 rpm.

I would make the doors - some things are never done how you would when you "custom order" them. I am just finishing my kitchen with birds eye maple panels and cherry stiles and rails.

I bought a Felder shaper in Atlanta last summer and would give you a great deal on the Jet, with loses of 3/4" cutters, mobile bast and a tenon table.

[Sam Murdoch]

I have a Jet 35x with the 3 hp motor and 1.25" spindle, using a 6.5" diameter raised panel cutter, it easily cut with one pass with a power feeder. It never bogged down and I ran it between 4000 to 6000 rpm.

I would make the doors - some things are never done how you would when you "custom order" them. I am just finishing my kitchen with birds eye maple panels and cherry stiles and rails.

I bought a Felder shaper in Atlanta last summer and would give you a great deal on the Jet, with loses of 3/4" cutters, mobile bast and a tenon table.

Thanks John. Worth a conversation.

[Sam Murdoch]

I have a Jet 35x with the 3 hp motor and 1.25" spindle, using a 6.5" diameter raised panel cutter, it easily cut with one pass with a power feeder. It never bogged down and I ran it between 4000 to 6000 rpm.

I would make the doors - some things are never done how you would when you "custom order" them. I am just finishing my kitchen with birds eye maple panels and cherry stiles and rails.

I bought a Felder shaper in Atlanta last summer and would give you a great deal on the Jet, with loses of 3/4" cutters, mobile bast and a tenon table.

That is precisely the point of "custom". No production shop will make any attempt to align drawer front grain left to right or organize panels to compliment each other in a set let alone grain and color of door parts in a pair or in a select group. Won't be as cost effective for me to do it but the job will certainly reflect the extra care.

[Mel Fulks]

I'm with you ,Sam. Picky on getting good grain matches. Pretty sure your client knows quality and will get it.

[Patrick Walsh]

I did not read your thread all the way through or forgot you mentioned it was hard maple. Im also building a large hard maple kitchen right now but its all getting conversion varnish.

I would never sub out stain grade doors. Now way they would be up to snuff to my expectations. Maybe the clients but even then probably not. Just building stain grade cabs from two different sources of stock is asking for major trouble.

[john lawson]

If you are patient and have the time before the job is due I believe you can do it on your budget.

I just helped with an estate sale where we sold a 3hp taiwanese shaper for 550 with three spindles. You can buy a power feeder for less than 500 used. Of course, you have to wait until one shows up, make sure it's okay, then find the power feeder. But they are around, and your area should be good to look for one.

Good luck

[Cary Falk]

Hard to come by? There were probably more of those made than any other shaper. There are numerous sources for rebuilt spindles as well.
Why do people want to run router bits in a shaper? The speed is not there for that.
I have been looking several times without much luck. What i did find was crazy expensive. I run router bits all the time without issue

[Andy Giddings]

Maybe stating the obvious but if all you are doing is rail and stile in 3/4 hard maple with ply panels wouldn't a 3HP router mounted in a solid router table work? Especially as you don't want to spring for a feeder. Even if you wore out one set of cutters, you could buy several sets for the cost of good shaper tooling

[Sam Murdoch]

Maybe stating the obvious but if all you are doing is rail and stile in 3/4 hard maple with ply panels wouldn't a 3HP router mounted in a solid router table work? Especially as you don't want to spring for a feeder. Even if you wore out one set of cutters, you could buy several sets for the cost of good shaper tooling

Yes, of course. I already own several 3hp routers. The frustration of setting up and maintaining accuracy from one step to the next however is extremely frustrating without a good lift. Such a router lift is expensive (rightly so) and a properly built and stable table takes up nearly as much room as a shaper. Add in the screaming of the router, poor dust collection and small cutters - I'd much rather have a shaper. The shaper would not be a luxury. I would certainly use it regularly. Many times for many projects I have designed around not having a shaper or settled for stock moldings when custom would have been preferred. I've got an order in now to a custom molding shop for more than a 1400 feet of spectacular moldings reproducing 19th century plaster originals. More typically I need 20 or 30 feet. An in house shaper would be excellent. I just have room constraints that preclude getting bigger than the 3hp size.

I started this thread to hear of people's experience with that size shaper. I agree that a power feeder and a coping sled for my intended project would be valuable. I will likely get those but first I needed to settle in on the right shaper. I have until the end of April to line up all those ducks.

Good discussion all!

[brent stanley]

You may have time to keep your eye open for a deal and make out ok. I got my 2HP Wadkin for $300 and only had to grease it. It sounds like you had a shop before with lots of shapers and probably lots of tooling too so you already know common tooling costs etc. One thing to think of is the size of the table and attaching a power feeder mast to it. I love my small shaper, but just did not have room on the table to attach a feeder so had to mount a bracket off to the side. Not a problem, but it increases the footprint and took some time.

If you're looking into lower cost, less production oriented tooling, have you thought about the multi profile blocks that use HSS tooling? Just unbelievable finish quality, and last for a long time. Depending on the profile, you're looking at router bit costs to replace the knives and the good ones will last at least an entire kitchen in Maple, probably not in exotic, abrasive hardwoods though. I get around 1500 linear feet from my knives in hardwood. They can be sharpened at home if you're set up for it and it's not a matched set (ie. where a tongue has to match perfectly with a groove or a rail profile has to match perfectly with a stile profile for example). I use HSS almost exclusively and though I'm not high production, I am commercial.

B

[rudy de haas]

I had a comparable problem: work to do for which a router seemed inadequate and not enough cash to buy the higher end shaper I wanted. I got lucky: a guy in Calgary had bought used Craftex (grizzly) shaper 15 years ago, used it for his own cabinets, and parked it until his wife sold it to me cheap - including a power feeder. The machine is essentially a delta 3HP/220V with different paint and is both a joy and a pain to use. It's a pain because set-up takes forever (the fence is NOT highly mobile :) ) but a joy because it'll happily rip a 3" blade through jatoba without really changing its motor sound.

If this is really a one-major job purchase for you, I'd suggest doing what I did: wait until you get lucky, accept the time it takes to set up each job (i.e,. accept a difficult to use fence), hold out for a power feeder, and just plan your work to minimize the number of set-ups needed.

[Brian W Smith]

Our 3hp grizz was 600 used.It is aligned as an outfeed table for big BS.This only works because this shaper is for running smallish moulds....say less than 2x4".It's a real money maker though on small'sh profiles.It's backed up to a 5hp shaper,they share the same powerfeed.....its mounted on a 1/2" thick steel plate that connects the two,and simply swings around.But we rarely use the PF on the 3hp.Both have inhouse,custom fence setups.The 3 uses an incredibly easy to adj roller wheel hold down that dbls as a guard.

Interestingly,I'd sorta rather use the 3hp.It has many more attachments.....even an aluminum off side fence.Plus it's,closer to the tooling cabinets,haha.Just sayin,the 3hp size...with some serious attention paid to fences and accoutrements is fine for smaller commercial applications.

[Jeff Duncan]

I started this thread to hear of people's experience with that size shaper. I agree that a power feeder and a coping sled for my intended project would be valuable. I will likely get those but first I needed to settle in on the right shaper. I have until the end of April to line up all those ducks.

Good discussion all!

As far as experience with those sized machines I've owned the Delta HD and was greatly disappointed with it. It's accuracy was questionable on a good day and heavy duty? Not even close! I sold it after a short while and picked up a brand new Powermatic 27. Significantly heavier machine, crappy fence, nice big motor and capable of doing some larger cuts. I killed the bearings with less than 2 years of use and knew I needed a bigger more robust machine. You can certainly get by with the Powermatic, and many guys I'm sure do, but if your trying to make money you may be disappointed in the long run.

Although I don't have experience with them I think something like a used Northfield, Oliver, or Moak shaper might fit your needs. Smaller sized shapers much more heavily built than the hobby brands. They also tend to go for very reasonable money. There was a guy couple years back in New Hampshire trying to sell a Northfield that looked to be in good condition for a very reasonable price and was listed on e-bay for well over a year! If you look around a bit, and maybe even post a wanted to buy ad here and there, you might find yourself a pretty decent machine for not much investment. Just need to do a bit of homework and have some patience;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Jim Andrew]

It takes me as long to make the drawers as it does to build the boxes. And then the doors. Did figure out I need to make the next set of doors with 7/8" thick frames, so I can send the whole door through the widebelt after assembly.

[Ray Selinger]

This might be the best thread I've read on the 'net for shapers. https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/tools/power-tools/1098512-multi-profile-euro-bloc-shaper-cutter-where It's obviously Canadian. But the use of European tooling expands the usefulness of the light duty shaper and at considerably more inexpensive price than even router bits, let alone shaper cutters.All without the use of a power feeder .These vids will give you an idea of what they are talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mylYGzZC2yU

Most of the Grizzly G1026 and the like are clones of the Powermatic #26, a simple sturdy design. I think it's a better design than the Delta heavy duty.