Wood ID

[Bill Jobe]

More oak with speck rays or ray specks, whichever.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

More oak with speck rays or ray specks, whichever.

Looks like Oak to me

[Ted Prinz]

Might it be elm?

[Bill Jobe]

Leo, are the spec rays a character present in every tree of one variety of oak, or are they random throughout all varieties?

Ted, if it's elm this is my first experience turning elm.
Actually, I have not used any of it yet. I just cut a small piece off of a log about 30" by 7 or 8 inches. Can't remember where I got it. Wood fit for turning sometimes just jumps into the bed of my truck.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Might it be elm?

I have turned just about every kind of Elm there is in N.America, none of them had rays.

Oak is known for its rays, and though I have only turned several types of Oak, certainly not all species of them.

I was also looking at this grain that has similarities to Elm, but for the rays I dismissed that.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo, are the spec rays a character present in every tree of one variety of oak, or are they random throughout all varieties?

Ted, if it's elm this is my first experience turning elm.
Actually, I have not used any of it yet. I just cut a small piece off of a log about 30" by 7 or 8 inches. Can't remember where I got it. Wood fit for turning sometimes just jumps into the bed of my truck.

Bill as I replied to Ted, Elm does not have rays like that, and all species of Oak that I know off does have it, best I can do :D

[Bill Jobe]

Thanks Leo.
I think I once read there are over 70 varieties of oak?

[Dick Strauss]

It looks like it could be mulberry...

[John Keeton]

Locust perhaps? I agree on the oak save for the color.

[John K Jordan]

Eliminate the wild guesses. Cut off a small piece, just enough to hold easily. Shave off the wood on the transverse face (end grain) with a single-edge razor blade to cleanly expose several rings. Look at the rings with a 10x hand lens. Note the pores in the earlywood and the late wood. Look for tyloses. Compare what you see with an on-line photo of the type of wood you think it might be. This will eliminate all those species that might look close from a photo of the board.

It is hard to be sure from your photo but it appears your wood may have wavy bands of latewood pores. Several species have these very distinctive wavy bands. The pictures below are from the online Wood Database.

Elm is one with these wavy bands:
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Hackberry is another:
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There are others.

Now, just for fun, look at red oak and white oak:
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Notice other differences in the two photos above, for example the pore size, the earlywood pore distribution, the ray size and spacing. Look for tyloses in the larger pores.

Note that due the the wide variations between members of the same family and even between samples of the same species you might have to look at several samples to be fairly sure of the species. I like to use several references to get an idea of the range of variation. However, it is usually easy to eliminate a bunch of common species.

JKJ

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Thanks Leo.
I think I once read there are over 70 varieties of oak?

Bill there are many more than 70 species, trying to ID a specific specie will take more than just a magnifying glass, with 90 in the US and Canada, plus 160 in Mexico and another 100 in China, though we probably won’t find many logs up here of those.

Just taking the things you do know will help eliminate what it isn’t and then also what it is probably, even if not what specific species :D

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Wavy grain Oak does exist but certainly not common, here’s a picture of it.

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[Bill Jobe]

Wow, the world of trees is full of surprises !!

[John K Jordan]

Bill there are many more than 70 species, trying to ID a specific specie will take more than just a magnifying glass...
Wavy grain Oak does exist but certainly not common, here’s a picture of it.
...


I too have seen specific boards from oak and other woods that look similarly wavy. The cross section of that board would be interesting.

It might be surprising how many times wood is misidentified, even by those who should know better. I first got interested in learning more about ID when an experienced turner at the club passed around a bowl labeled "Cherry" on the bottom. But even without a magnifier I could see the wood was strongly ring porous! That was a case where armed with even even the most basic knowledge anyone could have eliminated Cherry from the possibilities.

To get the exact species takes a great deal of effort and even then is often nearly impossible or at least impractical. The most reliable method: start with the actual tree, leaves, and fruit.
Beyond that, these will help narrow the possibilities of domestics and some exotics:
- knowing something about where the wood came from
- examining the ring structure under magnification
- measuring the density
- learning the distinctive smell of certain species
- using a good black light in some cases

(If anyone is interested in my experience in locating the perfect UV light for wood, just ask.)

I've mentioned it before but may be worth repeating: the US gov Forest Product Lab will do free wood ID for any citizen. But even they will NOT identify the exact species. We sent a sample to them once as a test and they sent back their findings in one word: Elm.

For anyone seriously interested in wood ID I recommend the book "Identifiying Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley. For the literate woodworker perhaps less serious about ID but serious about wood, his book "Understanding Wood" is a good education on the structure of wood and how it behaves.

JKJ

[robert baccus]

To this old forester's eye, those ray's look awfully weak for an oak species--just my take?

[John K Jordan]

Locust perhaps? I agree on the oak save for the color.

I meant to mention but forgot: a 365 nm UV light will cause locust species to fluoresce with a bright yellow. Several others species also glow with yellow so that by itself won't give a positive ID. However, as with other methods, it can easily prove if a sample is NOT locust! UV is good at distinguishing between black locust and osage orange which are sometimes confused, especially when aged, due to the similar endgrain and densities. (Osage does not fluoresce.)

This picture shows redheart and locust under UV light. The fluorescence looks even more distinctive with the eye than in the hand-held photo.

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I think anyone serious about wood ID could make good use of a UV light. Just be careful, some are so cheap they are almost free and are still worthless. The problem is the manufacturer lies or is mistaken when advertising the wavelength. I've even bought two identical lights from the same vendor and one was good and the other useless for ID.

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

This might be a good time to mention that looking directly at a uv light can cause permanent blindness.

[John K Jordan]

This might be a good time to mention that looking directly at a uv light can cause permanent blindness.

Are you sure? Are you possibly referring to photokeratitis? Also known as Arc Eye, painful burning of the eye from looking at a strong UV light or a welding arc. This is more like sunburn of the cornea and can have symptoms from mild itchiness to severe pain. However, the cornea heals itself in a day or two. No permanent damage and certainly not blindness. I'm sure you can find something on the internet that claims looking at into a UV light can cause blindness, but both my eye surgeon and eye doctor indicated that's not the case. (I was concerned both about the UV lights I've used for years and my welding equipment.)

I understand longer term exposure to UV light can cause a type of cancer related to the eye, similar to skin cancer, and can contribute to cataracts. This is a good reason to wear UV blocking glasses and sunglasses when outside, especially around water and snow. From my reading, a lifetime of exposure to the sun is potentially far more damaging than using an artificial UV light for fluorescence, sterilization, or curing of adhesives.

If anyone is concerned about using a UV light, especially brighter lights with a shorter wavelength, UV blocking glasses and safety glasses are widely available. Amber or yellow glasses can diminish the blue end of the spectrum as well, easing eye stress from trying to focus on both ends of the spectrum.

For those worried about UV, consider not using LED lights in the shop and house. Some LEDs have been shown to output a significant amount of UV light. Some researchers are concerned we will eventually see far-reaching damage from long term use of LED lights.

But staring into a UV light, an 800 lumen flashlight, your car headlights, or any bright light is not a good idea. I wouldn't stare into a laser light of any kind, although it has been shown the "blink reflex" will protect you from damage from a laser in the visible wavelengths. A bright laser can temporarily blind you for some seconds, though, long enough to wreck your car. (Green is the worst due to the human eye's high sensitivity to green.)

An entirely different issue is invisible light from lasers, specifically intense IR light which will instantly burn the retina. I used to work in and around laser labs and in spite of the rules, some coworkers got instant and permanent eye damage from carelessness, specifically, failure to use the proper eye protection. One guy I worked with dropped a tool which passed through the beam and reflected light into his eye leaving him with a burned line across his vision the rest of his life. Someone put up a somewhat humorous but very serious eye chart - I never got a picture of it but I recreated it for a friend:

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JKJ

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Bill this is what is known now, and yes you can get blind from it over time.

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just wondering what all this does to finding an answer to the question of the ID of wood that you asked :confused:.

[John K Jordan]

just wondering what all this does to finding an answer to the question of the ID of wood that you asked :confused:.

I wondered that too!

I couldn't find anything conclusive relating UV to macular degeneration. I read one case reported but appeared to be independent of and coincidentally found following exposure to laboratory use of UV, more likely related to the age of the patient. As mentioned, the more trusted references for this and other permanent conditions pointed primarily to long-term exposure to UV from the sun. I'll ask my eye professional about this and for updates on other short-term exposure issues the next time I see him. What is the source of the quote you copied?

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

My comment was something that was thought to be true within another hobby I had years ago...koi keeping. I just assumed those who made that claim knew.
I ran 2 40watt lights and was very careful not to look at them directly when turned on outside of their in-use position.. But while in use one could not see the light because the tubes fit inside of a waterproof pvc body. They did have a lens on one end so you could see if they were on. The lens was supposedly coated with uv blocking material and appeared blue.

[Bill Jobe]

The problem is the manufacturer lies or is mistaken when advertising the wavelength. I've even bought two identical lights from the same vendor and one was good and the other useless for ID.

JKJ

I've found that to be true with residential lighting, as well.
Many led bulbs are labeled with the wrong wavelength.
I once was at a big box store looking for warm leds. A salesperson happened by and I asked him for help. I told him the Kelvin number I was looking for and he said there's no such thing as a Kelvin number for lighting..that it was a measurement of heat. I told him that it is also a measurement of light. He gave me an angry look and told me that he was an engineering student and that he certainly was not going to take anything I said serious, then he walked away.
They may be labeled better now days but a few years back they sold 3000k bulbs that were more like daylight.

[John K Jordan]

I've found that to be true with residential lighting, as well.
Many led bulbs are labeled with the wrong wavelength.
I once was at a big box store looking for warm leds. A salesperson happened by and I asked him for help. I told him the Kelvin number I was looking for and he said there's no such thing as a Kelvin number for lighting..that it was a measurement of heat. I told him that it is also a measurement of light. He gave me an angry look and told me that he was an engineering student and that he certainly was not going to take anything I said serious, then he walked away.
They may be labeled better now days but a few years back they sold 3000k bulbs that were more like daylight.

Maybe he was a civil engineering student. Just refer to the Kelvin number as the color temperature with the emphases on "color" and avoid the whole issue of black body radiation.

The issue with UV lights for wood ID is those whose spectrum spread is indeed 365 nm include very little visible light. Those mislabeled may include some 365 nm light but also put out a lot of light closer to 400 nm or longer which is in the visible blue end of the spectrum. This type will cause fluorescence but it will be so washed out by the visible light it will be difficult or even impossible to see, especially where the fluorescence is naturally weak. A couple of the cheap UV lights I bought even had a lot of white light in the mix. I finally discovered recommendations for a high quality UV light by searching the Candlepower forum. Not cheap but work extremely well.

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

John, I'm guessing your comment "black body radiation" was humor, but it went over my head. Mind elaborating for this hillbilly?

Surely you are well learned about far infrared radiation, as well. That was another popular subject amongst koikeepers. A breeder in Japan came out with a product made of ceramic, mixed with rice hulls and baked at around 1400F. The results was a product with lots of holes for bacterial to set up shop and far infrared light that supposedly cleaned the water to a level never before available. I checked out the price of adding it to my 4,000 gal. Pond and was shocked to learn my price would be in the thousands if done properly. I decided to pass.

[John K Jordan]

John, I'm guessing your comment "black body radiation" was humor, but it went over my head. Mind elaborating for this hillbilly?


From one hillbilly to another: As defined in science and engineering, a black "body" is the ideal whose surface does not reflect any light. Heat an object and when hot enough it will emit light from the surface, first a dull red, then brighter and whiter and finally bluish white. If the object is ideal black body, the temperature of the object in Kelvins is the color of the light. If the object is not a perfect ideal black body, the color of the light is close to the temperature but not perfect and may not be good for instrument calibration. If the object is not even heated to produce light (such as an LED), a method is used to approximate the Kelvin number. Next time tell the engineering student to look up CCT, or Correlated Color Temperature - every good Home Depot clerk should know this stuff.

Light from sources other than extremely hot things like bulb filaments don't put out exactly the same color of light so they are given a color temperature number close to the black body radiation to give us some idea of the "softness", "warmness", or "coolness" of the light.

I found this chart (disregard the colors they used in the left column); you might find the descriptions interesting:

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This article looks good and explains a bit about the approximations used for non-black body emitters like LED:
http://lowel.tiffen.com/edu/color_temperature_and_rendering_demystified.html

JKJ

[Bill Jobe]

Thanks for the link, John. Interesting stuff.
I've always been fascinated with light.

I have a theory about light that I may share with you at some time. The few persons I have told walked away shaking their heads. Some avoid me altogether.
That's ok. I enjoy solitude.

[John K Jordan]

I have a theory about light that I may share with you at some time. The few persons I have told walked away shaking their heads. Some avoid me altogether.


I would love to hear your theory - anything that might get me thinking in different directions gets my full attention, even if I don't understand or agree. With throwing out ideas for brainstorming, discussion, and taking turns playing the devil's advocate, everyone expands their bubble and learns something - that's how innovation gets a kick. When working at the Lab we often had lively sessions bouncing around "crazy" ideas. In fact, I have several shared patents based on some of these sessions, coincidentally related to light.

I'll bet some closed-minded people shook their heads and walked away from Einstein and Tesla at times. :)

Go ahead, hit me with a private message. If something is intriguing and way beyond me I have a friends and associates expert in appropriate fields, some with PHDs in physics and mathematics who specialize in light, lasers, and fluorescence.

JKJ

[Glenn C Roberts]

Bill, You have let us know you may have something very interesting to share. The cat is out of the bag already. Let's hear it! Think tanks are the way to go, even if nobody else is there!

[Bill Jobe]

Here's a shot of the side of an oak bowl.
I think I've posted it before but since then I tried several ways to sharpen the image.
The only thing I don't like about it....it isn't Osage Orange, my current favorite wood.

I think I'm going to drag out some of my camera stuff and experiment. Maybe buy a good lupe, too.
I came across some Argentine Osage and the grain looks much different.