School Me On Lumber Selection: Shouldn't Flatness Factor Into the Price Of A Board?

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

For most of my life, before I took woodworking more seriously, buying lumber has been a pretty basic exchange. It's all structurally made up of the same fibers within a given species so the factors for price are mainly what kind of wood it is and volume. I never gave it more thought than that. Last week, however, I was at a Woodcraft store looking for some small boards for smaller projects. Given the lesser amount needed I decided to splurge on some fancy stuff like Padouk that I wouldn't be able to afford for bigger projects like furniture. $45 for a board that measures 3/4"x6"x36". Pretty spendy stuff but it sure is beautiful. Anyway, as I was looking through the boards they had I noticed that some of them had some significant defects. Like one of the 3/4" thick boards had a 1/4" bow in it. Despite that, the price for each board was the same for a given volume. Is that a big screwy or am I missing something here?

If I bought that board with a bow in it, I'd be lucky to get 1/2" of thickness out of it after planing. So shouldn't that board be priced like a 1/2" thick board rather than a 3/4" thick board?

Long story short I realized that there's either something I don't understand about how lumber yards/retailers calculate and price wood, or the whole process is overly-simplistic and I should be very picky in going through lumber. Thoughts?

[Prashun Patel]

When they put it in the bin all boards may have appeared relatively similar and flat. If it warped in the bin nobody may have noticed it.

A small amount of movement can be tolerated, but when I encounter a piece that won't yield what its neighbors will, I ask for it to be discounted. The dealers are almost always reasonable.

[Dave Stuve]

Lumber is a volume business, so the pricing formulas are simple. That's why people sort through piles of lumber, or reject some boards that are really lousy. More detailed pricing would be a pretty big burden on the seller and buyer.

[Andrew Hughes]

Padauk is only pretty for a short time then it turns this ugly brown color for the rest of its life.:(
That why I don't like it plus it make me itch.
Ive bought wood from Rockler in the past that was heavily discounted because it sat for so long.Now I think they move their inventory to different stores.Darn it!

[Brett Luna]

If I bought that board with a bow in it, I'd be lucky to get 1/2" of thickness out of it after planing. So shouldn't that board be priced like a 1/2" thick board rather than a 3/4" thick board?

Let's say they gave you a break because, for your project, you could only get ½-inch of finished thickness out of the board. Call it $30 instead of $45. Then go back next week to buy stock for another project. Say you find an identical piece but this time, your cut plan will allow a ⅝-inch thickness. Will you happily pay $7.50 more for that extra ⅛-inch? Maybe you're making a bent lamination and since it's going to be all bendy anyway, you can slice the whole thickness (minus kerfs) without worrying about the bow. Will you now pay $45 when it was $30 last week? Same board, same bow. I don't see how such a scheme would be at all workable, much less fair.

[Michael J Evans]

Don't have anything to add, just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I was in a specialty hardwood lumber store the other day and seen the same types of bows and thought why would I pay a premium for s4s when it would have to be worked further.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Let's say they gave you a break because, for your project, you could only get ½-inch of finished thickness out of the board. Call it $30 instead of $45. Then go back next week to buy stock for another project. Say you find an identical piece but this time, your cut plan will allow a ⅝-inch thickness. Will you happily pay $7.50 more for that extra ⅛-inch? Maybe you're making a bent lamination and since it's going to be all bendy anyway, you can slice the whole thickness (minus kerfs) without worrying about the bow. Will you now pay $45 when it was $30 last week? Same board, same bow. I don't see how such a scheme would be at all workable, much less fair.

Well I'd say that what I plan to do with the lumber is irrelevant. What matters is that one board can yield only 1/2" thickness whereas another without the same defect can yield 3/4". I think I get where you're coming from, though. There has to be some standard or principle to prevent endless and arbitrary haggling. All I'm trying to suggest is that defects should be accounted for in price since they do effect the potential of the board. If a 3/4" board has a bow that means it'll only be 1/2" thick after jointing/planing, then that board might as well be considered a 1/2" thick board and should be sold that way.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

When they put it in the bin all boards may have appeared relatively similar and flat. If it warped in the bin nobody may have noticed it.

A small amount of movement can be tolerated, but when I encounter a piece that won't yield what its neighbors will, I ask for it to be discounted. The dealers are almost always reasonable.

Prashun, I feel like I've been seeing your name quite often in threads lately and you always have something sensible to say. I probably should have asked about discounting for defects but I didn't even consider it.

I didn't really put this explicitly in my original question but part of what I'm hoping to figure out is whether or not its reasonable to be picky when going through lumber and haggling a bit in situations like this. It seems reasonable to me but I don't want to be annoying or unnecessarily difficult with lumber yards.

Thanks for the input.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Padauk is only pretty for a short time then it turns this ugly brown color for the rest of its life.:(
That why I don't like it plus it make me itch.
Ive bought wood from Rockler in the past that was heavily discounted because it sat for so long.Now I think they move their inventory to different stores.Darn it!

Yep, I figured that out after a bit of reading. The trend is unfortunately common with a lot of the exotic woods that catch my eye. It looks like the aged color isn't too bad but not nearly as bright and bold as the current color. I have some Mulberry that I got from a local farmer that looks great right now but I know its destined for drab brownness eventually. Same with the bright orange Osage I like. This piece of Padauk is gonna be used mostly for tools and tool parts so I'm not quite as concerned about the color.

[Brett Luna]

Well I'd say that what I plan to do with the lumber is irrelevant. What matters is that one board can yield only 1/2" thickness whereas another without the same defect can yield 3/4". I think I get where you're coming from, though. There has to be some standard or principle to prevent endless and arbitrary haggling. All I'm trying to suggest is that defects should be accounted for in price since they do effect the potential of the board. If a 3/4" board has a bow that means it'll only be 1/2" thick after jointing/planing, then that board might as well be considered a 1/2" thick board and should be sold that way.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding how you're using the wood. But I do agree that the intended use is irrelevant to setting wood prices and that was pretty much my point. The ½-inch yield in thickness was largely determined by the way it was to be used. You said it was for a small project. If you really needed to joint/plane the whole thing in one go, then yeah, that'll waste the most thickness. If you can break the board down with two or more rough cuts before thicknessing, you can reduce how much wood you have to remove to eliminate the bow. So the yield could be ½-inch or perhaps ⅝-inch. Which one sets the price?

And did you need the full ¾-inch thickness? I don't know what they offered at the Woodcraft store since the nearest store to Anchorage is in Seattle. I've been in it a handful of times but I don't buy wood there. Most of what my local wood monger sells is either S3S or skip planed and straight lie ripped. It's not rough milled but it's still not a finished surface and with the long haul from mill to warehouse to dealer, and even with S3S, one cannot reasonably expect zero movement after milling. It's the nature of the beast. Just as I account for waste in length and width when buying wood, I also have to allow for waste in thickness due to jointing/planing, even if it's just to remove the mill marks from a nice, flat piece.

The idea of setting prices based on the theoretical yield of each and every stick in stock sounds hopelessly complicated and I wouldn't be surprised if the labor required to do it resulted in additional cost.

[Brett Luna]

Yep, I figured that out after a bit of reading. The trend is unfortunately common with a lot of the exotic woods that catch my eye. It looks like the aged color isn't too bad but not nearly as bright and bold as the current color.

The color difference can be pretty shocking, for sure. I've been working with it on a box project and a fair bit of sanding made my fingers look like I'd been eating Cheetos...maybe a little darker, like the spicy ones. I think it's most handsome with an oil-based finish and even still very nice looking with some age on it.

[Nick Decker]

Matthew, if you're in Kansas and near Kansas City you might want to check out Metro Hardwoods. I bought wood from the Woodcraft in Lenexa a couple of times, and you're definitely buying at the top of the price range there. Metro has a lot of those exotics, just not gift wrapped and marked up like Woodcraft. Not cheap, but more reasonable, it seems. They're at I-70 and Noland Rd.

[glenn bradley]

You get better at visualizing the parts and where they may come out of a certain board. I gladly take boards now that I would have never taken years ago. The fact that a whole board has some bow to it doesn't bother me if it has sections that are large enough to yield what I am after. I often find the most interesting figure near voids and defects. If you want the figure you have to pay for the defect too ;-)

[Edwin Santos]

I think your question is totally reasonable.

In a way, the market does the sorting. With the exception of the commercial shops that buy in full units, buyers will usually pick through the pile until what's left are only the misfits that the lumber dealer will eventually discount or cut up and sell as shorts. I agree with the advice you got from someone above who said to request a mark-down for a board with a defect. They will usually grade out a physical defect and in effect give you lower bd ft count.

For the lumberyard, it is just not worth the time to go through a unit and start segregating the boards to reflect the issues you mention.

I would also say you should see fewer bow/twist,cup situations with a good lumberyard that has decent turn-over and is buying from good suppliers. These places will store their wood properly and you will have fewer problems although I will admit that it is harder to find a good selection of exotics in such settings.

Retail type shops that store their lumber vertically are not ideal in my experience (big box stores, boutique woodworking stores). I think vertical storage encourages bowing and twisting.

[Prashun Patel]

"you always have something sensible to say"

Thx. You haven't read enough of my posts yet ;)

You'll learn the line. Yes, the couple dealers I work with would probably be annoyed if you haggle for a small number of boards all the time. Picking through huge piles to find one board should also be done judiciously. IMHO, you have to build up a relationship with your dealer (if you're small time like me). You can't ask for discounts every time, but once you have some credibility and you prove yourself as a loyal customer and they prove themselves as reputable, the discussion is very easy. They know if the board is bad, and they know YOU know it too. What I probably wouldn't do is ask for a 'good guy' discount unless I was buying a reasonable quantity.

In fact, I suspect most people buying boards at Woodcraft are doing so one-at-a-time. Also, the couple few times I've picked though their exotics, I came away with the impression that they tried to present good boards. So, in my mind, you wouldn't be out of line pointing out the warp to a Woodcraft employee or manager.

[Jeff Duncan]

Some good replies. First off I admit I don't buy wood from those small retailers....just way too expensive. But I do occasionally look around when I'm in the store and though it is going to vary store to store, most of what I've seen in the racks is not a premium product to begin with. Some is certainly good, and most usable, but in my mind it's a situation where you really just have to see if they have something that works for your project or not. If they have it then grab and go, if not and it's too warped, cupped, bowed, is split or has checking or whatever, just leave it right there in the rack. In the end it's a free market so they can charge what they want, (and certainly do), but you as a consumer can walk away and go someplace else. Or as others have said grab an employee, explain the situation, and see what they'll do. They have a huge markup on that stuff so can certainly discount it if they want without really losing anything. Case in point, I was in a store last week and saw a wide Purpleheart board in the rack. I took a closer look and was a 4/4 stick maybe 14" or so wide and at most 10' long. It has a tag on it for $245!!! They're selling for roughly $20 a bd ft!!! That's well over double what another local retailer will sell it to you for and this board had a sold tag on it already:confused: So don't be afraid to either ask for a discount, (if for some reason you really want a bowed board?), or find another retailer with better stock;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Randy Smith]

Here's some input from the other side of the fence. I'm a woodworker but I also sell lumber to local woodworkers. I started doing this about 4 years ago because our community lost its only source of lumber within a 2 hour drive. There's not a lot of margin in selling lumber and when I order from my suppliers, the lumber is graded but sometimes you get what you get. I let my customers pick through the piles which means sometimes I'm left with the dogs. If a board has bow or crook, usually woodworkers are pretty understanding about the fact they can use it for shorter parts. If the board is really bad, I toss it onto my personal stack and take the loss, sometimes I give it to a customer who's buying a bunch of the same species. I don't have a discount bin because margins are so low that it wouldn't look like much of a discount and I usually don't have enough dogs to keep it filled.

I only sell rough sawn. I don't stock s2s or s4s for the exact reasons you stated. If it sits around it's going to move, then you have to mill it again and you lose thickness/width etc. I will s2s or s4s small orders from time to time but I try to turn it around pretty quickly so it stays as true as possible. I think the biggest issue with buying at retail/chain stores is that they mostly carry s2s that sits around or worse yet, it leans against a wall, so as a woodworker you go into that deal as buyer beware.

Do some searching and find your closest lumber yard that specializes in kiln dried, rough sawn wood for woodworkers. If it's a good yard, they'll be glad to talk with you about your project and provide you with advice you may need.

[Rich Riddle]

I am a bit selective on purchasing wood, but there are a few tricks. Knowing how to select a cut of lumber prevents you from purchasing boards with significant internal stresses that might prove counterproductive to your project.

[roger wiegand]

I'm certain you can find a supplier who will sell you only perfect boards, at an appropriately astronomical price. I will continue to take boards that are "good enough", sometimes taking a badly warped board with stunning figure because I know that I can get value from it when it's been cut into 18" pieces for a project. With lumber what you see is what you get; it's not hard to figure out whether you want the particular wood on offer at the price asked. Board-by-board pricing only happens at high end retail outlets.

[Steve Peterson]

It is a bit like buying fruit at the grocery store. Everyone wants the perfect apples and the bad ones sit there. Eventually, the store either has to discount the bruised fruit or write it off as a total loss.

The board was probably in perfect condition when it was labeled. Then it started to warp as it dried further. Now it is no better than the 1/2" thick boards. I usually see 1/4" and 1/2" thick boards selling for the same price per square foot as the 3/4" thick stock. Only the boards thicker than an inch get priced per board foot. Maybe they should run it through their planer and re-sticker it as a flat 1/2" board.

Steve

[Dan Schocke]

I'm a little surprised at some of the responses, but I guess it really depends on the behavior of the suppliers in your area...

For rough stock, the places that I frequent all sell by grade and are usually pretty generous with their grading (i.e., you don't see many boards on the lower end of the standard unless stock is very low for that species). More often I see beautiful boards sitting in the #1 Common pile that are a few inches shy of the yield requirements for Select. In those kind of places I'm not going to haggle over price -- maybe question the grading of a board if it's obviously bad and for some reason I still need it. Otherwise, if they have what I want it's just a matter of whether or not I'm comfortable with the price. If I felt the supplier walked the edge of the standard for every board I might feel differently, but I've just never seen that happen.

If you're buying ungraded lumber I think anything is fair game and the price should be adjusted for defects, etc.

Places like Woodcraft or specialty stores selling S2S or S4S it doesn't seem like there's much room to debate -- the board has already yielded what it's going to yield. Maybe there is some grade that can be associated, but for the most part you either like it or you don't. The prices are generally high and dealing with the almost-always-not-truly-flat stock is a pain, so I try to avoid buying from them in normal circumstances.

Ask for whatever discount you feel is necessary, but don't be surprised if the seller doesn't share your opinion...

--Dan

[larry senen]

the real question is why buy s2s material? but thats an answer for a better typist. ir you don't want the board, don't buy it, what about the guy that's gonna make pens out of it. he's gonna get a hundred blanks and be happy.

[Ole Anderson]

How many projects need a board that is the full 8 (or 12) foot length of a standard board? Cut it in half or to near finish size and the bow is 1/4 or less of what you started with and you have a usable board. Or just negotiate the price with the supplier.

[lowell holmes]

I have straightened bowed boards by ripping down the center of the board and glue the halves back together with the bow opposite, there by straightening the board.
I doweled the halves on 12"(?) centers to straighten the board. It was a bank board room door made out of walnut. It worked!

If there is no other source for the lumber, you have to be creative.

[Brad Shipton]

Hardwoods are graded according to https://www.nhla.com/assets/1603/rules_card9.pdf. Here is a video discussing grading that might be of interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NukMeFj99Gc. You have to keep in mind that grading is a bulk operation, and is more focused on the commercial user that consumes product by the lift. It also considers the practical amount of time the grader has to grade the product as it goes by. They do not have time to pick up each board and look at it carefully. I suppose you might find a mill that could, but they will be far smaller and the lumber will cost more. The S4S, S2S, or S3S is generally a secondary process that is completed by a moulding company that processes material in bulk from the retailer to their specification. The people behind the SLR and moulding machines are not highly trained woodworkers, so they are just stuffing material in the machine as they are told to. If it goes to the moulding company as an FAS board, it will come back as and FAS and sold that way. Retailers charge what the market will bear. The twisted boards that do not yield as much tend to sit around the longest and are eventually sold off at a significant discount. I myself do not buy retail. It is too expensive and rarely can I find a board that I would not joint/plane for my project anyway. A few extra passes means little extra time considering the savings buying wholesale.

[Keith Westfall]

We don't have much to select from in our area, so it's kind of pick through the shorts pile or pay for the rack price.

What annoys me is that they always 'add' an inch or so on length, and maybe a bit less on width. When I asked, I was told it's to account for shrinkage!? I replied that I really didn't think it shrank that much since I picked it out.

He wasn't too impressed. Said that they get the same from their suppliers and that was the way it's done. And they don't give anything if a board has a broken edge and a piece missing. Sucks when they are the only supplier of some of the wood I like to use...

Glad I don't need a lot of it! But then I would find another supplier.