Waterlox bubbles and pitting

[Jim Clelland]

I'm having issues with Waterlox Sealer/Finish and Waterlox Satin Finish (both VOC Compliant).
The end goal is to get a Satin Finish, but I'm having the same issue with both Satin and the Sealer/Finish. (Sealer/Finish illustrated here).

Application goes well and is virtually bubble free, then over the next 1-2 hours, micro bubbles magically form in the film, many of which expand to varying
amounts seeming to push away the finish from the bubble in a circle, leaving a dry mark, often leaving a mark in the center and a depression.
See attached image for some examples. Some of them just stay as micro bubbles in the finish.

Wood is Beech Butcherblock. This begins happening when Waterlox is fully absorbed into the wood around the 3rd coat. For example this is the 6th coat of Waterlox.
Spoken to Waterlox and they've been of little help and don't have any ideas except to spray it (which isn't practical in my case).

I've tried a variety of things with no luck:

Following WL's protocol
Good brush, foam brush and paint pad (paint pad provides the best bubble free application (at the start), foam brush is 2nd to that)
With the Satin, I stir, the Sealer/Finish I don't shake or stir
Product is clean. I've tried 2 different batches of both products. It happens with new product straight out of the can
Air temperature is 71F and static, bubbles don't seem to come from the grain
Tried thinned and unthinned, same result. Thinned with MS, 10%, 20%, 50%. Also tried Satin/Sealer/Finish 50/50.
Sealer/Finish has lesser visible effect than Satin (Satin, the dulling agents seem to get pushed out further).
Using real Mineral Spirits, not Paint Thinner. (verified on the MSDS that I'm getting plain mineral spirits, also tried 2 different manufacturers)
Tried with sanding and without sanding between later coats. Tied 220, 320, 600. Also tried the 3M Maroon pad.
Cleaning with rag dampened with mineral spirits after sanding and let dry before next coat
Waiting 24 hrs between coats. Air exchange is good, air not blowing directly on surface.
I'm about $400 into product so far


It seems to me that either the bubble is expanding and pushing the film away (however the bubble doesn't expand, just the circle around the bubble), i.e. some surface tension issue,
or there's some residue on the surface (but I wipe off everything, with a clean lint free cotton rag damped with MS).

Is it possible that MS is not compatible with the VOC Compliant (I've noticed on the MSDS for Waterlox VOC Compliant, it doesn't have much MS in it) and it's causing it to push away?

Any ideas? Been at this for 2 months and beginning to have nightmares about the stuff.

http://i.imgur.com/4MVnua2.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zxfalod.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TYpN7ta.jpg

[Andy Giddings]

Does the same thing happen using the same process on another piece of wood (ie not from the same batch)?

[Jim Clelland]

Does the same thing happen using the same process on another piece of wood (ie not from the same batch)?
Not yet, it's my first WL project, but a good idea to outrule process versus wood. It's standard Ikea butcher block. I should add. I sanded it down to bare wood (i.e. removed the initial coat of mineral oil), before starting with the WL.

[Adam Herman]

"however the bubble doesn't expand, just the circle around the bubble"

that sounds like fish eye, not bubbles, which is a completely different animal.

I would try wiping down the whole thing with xylene or similar and then a good sand and clean off. use a new rag and wipe a coat on. fisheye is where the coating will not stick because of a containment. I have waterlox on my island top of reclaimed bowling ally and did not have any problems with the finish itself.

because of your continued problems, i may suspect the MS as well.

[Andy Giddings]

As Adam states, it does look like contamination. I do find it strange that this is only happening after three coats of Waterlox. Something else you might try if you have another type of finish available and some of the beech left, try a different finish. If it exhibits the same issue this would indicate there is something going on with the beech and nothing to do with the finishing process.
Is the Ikea block definitely untreated when it's supplied to you? The only block I can find on their US site is oil treated Bamboo

[Jim Clelland]

that sounds like fish eye, not bubbles, which is a completely different animal.

I get both appear within the finish as it's setting (they're not there immediately after application), they develop. Some of the bubbles develop into
"fish eye", and some of the bubbles remain as bubbles. The ones that fish eye, the bubble disappears in the center, but leaves a mark, the ones that don't develop, the bubble is
in the finish.



I would try wiping down the whole thing with xylene or similar and then a good sand and clean off. use a new rag and wipe a coat on. fisheye is where the coating will not stick because of a containment. I have waterlox on my island top of reclaimed bowling ally and did not have any problems with the finish itself.

Do you suggest using a rag damped in Xylene when cleaning the sanding dust off too?


because of your continued problems, i may suspect the MS as well.
I've tried 2 different MS's, but it maybe they're getting them from the same source.

[Jim Clelland]

As Adam states, it does look like contamination. I do find it strange that this is only happening after three coats of Waterlox.
Something else you might try if you have another type of finish available and some of the beech left, try a different finish.

I'll try that



Is the Ikea block definitely untreated when it's supplied to you? The only block I can find on their US site is oil treated Bamboo
It's this: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40274960/ (but in beech, they discontinued it last year so it's no longer listed on their website).

It ships with 1 coat of mineral oil on, I sanded it down to bare wood, and cleaned with mineral spirits and let dry before applying the first coat of Waterlox.

[Prashun Patel]

I suspect problems with mixing the sealer finish with anything. The voc compliant formula is even less friendly to mineral spirits than the original formula. That is not a scientific finding - just my observation after one can. So ymmv.

[Andy Giddings]

If it comes with mineral oil already on it, Jim, I suspect that to be the issue. Oil will penetrate Beech very well as its more porous than a typical cutting board material (Maple for example). Might be wrong but you may never extract the oil completely and that will cause issues with the finish. See this thread on Mineral Oil and does it dry? http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?70588-Does-Mineral-Oil-quot-Dry-quot

[Jim Clelland]

If it comes with mineral oil already on it, Jim, I suspect that to be the issue. Oil will penetrate Beech very well as its more porous than a typical cutting board material (Maple for example). Might be wrong but you may never extract the oil completely and that will cause issues with the finish. See this thread on Mineral Oil and does it dry? http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?70588-Does-Mineral-Oil-quot-Dry-quot
It mentions on the Waterlox website, it's okay to apply over mineral oil provided the cross hatch test is okay. However, I stripped it down anyway till there was no color left from the oil as I didn't want to take a chance. Also did it again more aggressively later with 60 grit to take off a batch of waterlox failed coating. There's a possibility there's a bit soaked into the grain, but nothing visible, but they didn't initially soak the wood heavily either, it was just a light coating to prevent warpage by the manufacturer.

[Jim Clelland]

I suspect problems with mixing the sealer finish with anything. The voc compliant formula is even less friendly to mineral spirits than the original formula. That is not a scientific finding - just my observation after one can. So ymmv.
I've tried it thinned and unthinned. (The photos are unthinned).

What are you thoughts about wiping the sanding off with mineral spirits? Would that be enough to cause incompatibility? I sand, vacuum, wipe off with paper towel with mineral spirits, and then a lint free cotton rag dipped in mineral spirits, then wipe with a dry rag, then let the surface completely dry.

I've got some other solvents on hand. I've got DNA (Bio Fuel, in Canada so DNA is hard to find), but MSDS says it's Ethanol and they use Ethyl Acetate for denaturing (which is also used in Fish Eye Additive). Also Isopropanol 99%, Acetone and can get Xylene. Just not sure if any of those would damage the existing coating or create bonding issues.

They tell us that Mineral Spirits is the thinner to use, however the low VOC doesn't have much mineral spirits in it, unlike the original formula (but can't get original here either, so stuck with Low VOC).

[Brett Luna]

No clue if it'll make a difference in your case but I thin WL with naphtha, usually 2:1. It takes more coats and isn't intended to build much of a film but it really reduces recoat time.

[John TenEyck]

They look a lot like fisheyes to me. I would try cleaning with Xylene after sanding then applying a coat or two of Sealcoat shellac before starting with Waterlox.

John

[matt romanowski]

I am having the same problems as you for the last week. I didn't try thinning at all today and think I found out what is going on. I believe the bubbles are from solvent popping. That is when the solvent starts to evaporate in the middle of the film but can not get out because the surface has already evaporated. I'm guessing your in the Northern part of the country where the humidity is pretty low right now?

I had trouble with heavy coats and was going crazy looking for dust. I did my initial coats with a foam applicator and had trouble. Sanded down with 320 grit until it was perfectly smooth and put a new coat on this morning with a good varnish brush. Same issue with the bubbles started to happen. I started to wipe the surface down with a rag figuring I couldn't make it worse and the thinner film laid out much better.

My initial applications were very close to their suggested coverage rate. I'm doing a 38"x72" walnut table. With the apron and legs, I figure it's about 40 sf and I used a quart in 4 coats (they say a quart should be 156 sf).

I would suggest either getting the humidity and temp to the 45% and 75*F range, or put on thinner coats. For me the temps are going to be around 60-65F and 30% humidity, so I'll go with thinner coats.

[Jim Clelland]

They look a lot like fisheyes to me. I would try cleaning with Xylene after sanding then applying a coat or two of Sealcoat shellac before starting with Waterlox.
John
Take the finish back to bare wood, or sand level; xylene,sealcoat then WL. I.E. If Shellac on top of waterlox okay?

[Jim Clelland]

I am having the same problems as you for the last week. I didn't try thinning at all today and think I found out what is going on. I believe the bubbles are from solvent popping. That is when the solvent starts to evaporate in the middle of the film but can not get out because the surface has already evaporated. I'm guessing your in the Northern part of the country where the humidity is pretty low right now?

In Canada, 35% humidity indoors and 71F.

I'll try the wipe ons.

[matt romanowski]

After letting the first wiped coat dry for 24 hours, it looked pretty good with a few spots that were matte instead of the gloss(ier). I did a second wipe on coat this morning and it looks perfect. I used half a rag from a Scott box (disposable rags) and put the Waterlox on about half as heavy as the foam brush put it on. It took a little bit of technique, similar to what was posted in the sticky video about using a brush and dragging it. Don't be afraid to work go over spots a few times if they aren't looking how you want. With the large amount of oil, I don't think you have to worry about messing things up.

Also, working this morning I saw some spots like you showed that appear to be fisheyes. I think they are small drops of finish hitting the surface. I noticed some yesterday and was able to recreate it today. Any tiny drop landing on the finished surface would cause a similar mark.

I hope this helps you out. I know I was really frustrated until I got these results. I can imagine you are more frustrated that me as you've been at it longer.

[Jim Clelland]

Tried a few things yesterday based on the comments here. First, I'm fairly convinced now I'm getting both fisheye and solvent popping. Fisheye I'm suspecting wax/silicone contamination, but there's nothing environmental, which leaves contamination from the process, candidates would be sanding paper, pads, rags, towels and mineral sprits.

So I tried on a number of the pieces different techniques, none of which solved the fisheyes. Switched out the rags for scott blue towels, switched out mineral spirits for cleaning the surface with DNA and tried not sanding.

For the solvent popping/fisheyes, I tried applying as a wipeon with the dennys method and blue shop towels folded into 4 with tipping off by dragging towel lightly in direction of grain, fisheyes and bubbles developed sooner (within 5 mins), although the fisheyes were smaller in size than usual. Tipping off a 2nd time reduced the problem, then bubbles and fisheyes appear again within a few minutes (the fisheyes appear in different locations).

Then I tried the wipe on, followed by a number of "dry brushes" during drying with a dry blue shop towel dragged lightly. Smoothes over the bubbles and fisheyes, but they appear again shortly.
(This also indicates I'm not dropping product on the surface causing the fisheyes, because the dragged towel is dry).

I've only had one success, one of the pieces I wiped on using dennys, but didn't tip off, then cut a maroon 3m pad smaller and sanded the WL in the direction of the grain (i.e. wet sanding with waterlox). Finally tipping off by a light dragging off the maroon pad in the direction of the grain overlapping drags by half the pad width. Finally, no fisheyes. But surface is lined, kinda matte like (which is the ultimate goal, although I'll take anything at the moment, gloss, normal or satin). Not sure if there is any solvent popping still, as the surface isn't glossy enough to see it.
The next approach I'm going to try here is a "paint pad" coat to see if the fisheye/solvent popping is still an issue over this new layer. If it is, wipe off before dry and sand in with a finer 3M pad.

I'll grab some Xylene today and try that on one of the pieces.

It seems to me that WL VOC Compliant doesn't seem to like to bond to WL VOC Compliant which causes these fisheyes.

[John TenEyck]

Take the finish back to bare wood, or sand level; xylene,sealcoat then WL. I.E. If Shellac on top of waterlox okay?


Dewaxed shellac sticks to most anything. Nearly any finish will stick to shellac. Your best approach would be strip off everything and start fresh but if you aren't up for that, which wouldn't take long with KleanStrip Premium stripper, then the approach I outlined above should work fine.

It sure sounds like you have silicone contamination, courtesy of Ikea. The only surefire way to deal with that is to remove it (Xylene) and seal in any that is still there (Sealcoat).

John

[Alan Lightstone]

I have my own collection of horror stories with VOC compliant Waterlox. The original Sealer/Finish, on the other hand works great.

Sounds like both fisheye and solvent popping.

I would sand down to the wood, and go with the Original Formula. Wipe it on. Much more foolproof. I'd avoid the dry brushing. I can only see that making things worse.

[Marty Schlosser]

I'd have to agree with those suggesting the finish is drying on the top first (which, incidentally is logical as it's exposed to the ambient air, as compared the the rest of the coat you've laid down) and causing the havoc. However, I wouldn't rule out contaminants in the finish itself. I use mostly waterborne products, and filter the finish before it goes into my gun. Perhaps if nothing else works you could try filtering it before application?

[Jim Clelland]

Tried taking it back to the wood, using cleaning with Xylene and applying 2 coats of shellac. Still getting fisheyes, now on the first coat as the Shellac has sealed the wood.
Here's the exact process followed. So I guess this rules out contamination of the surface by Ikea. Any other ideas?

1. Took finish back to bear wood with 120 grit, sanded to 220 grit
2. Cleaned with xylene wiping off any contaminants with Scott Blue Paper Towel soaked in Xylene
3. Left to Dry (1hr)
4. Applied Zinsser SealCoat with High Density Foam Brush, areas that soaked up were covered till uniformly glossy
5. Left 1hr to dry
6. Sanded lightly with 320 (non stearate) in direction of grain
7. Wiped off with Scott Blue Paper Towel (no solvent) and Clean hand
8. Apply Zinsser SealCoat with High Density Foam Brush
9. Left 2 hrs to dry
10. Sanded lightly with 320
11. Wiped off with Scott Blue Paper Towel (no solvent) and Clean hand
12. Applied VOC Compliant Waterlox (unthinned) with High Density Foam Brush, and tipped off, coat is uniform
(Waterlox is clean and straight out of the Can into a container)
13. Fisheyes began to appear after 2 mins
14. Tipped off again to remove fisheyes
15. Fisheyes began to appear after 2 mins

[Alan Lightstone]

Wow. Certainly qualifies as the college try, Jim.

Not sure what to add here. I might have done a few things differently (sprayed a very light coat of shellac to ensure coverage of potentially contaminated areas, not allowing the difference in surface tension to cause the shellac to not cover spots), used Original Waterlox instead of VOC compliant), but I really can't criticize any of your approach or understand where the contamination causing the fisheyes is coming from.

[Prashun Patel]

I am with Alan. Try the original formulation

[Jim Clelland]

I am with Alan. Try the original formulation
That would be ideal. However where I'm located, it's not available for sale in Original (non low voc). Plus I can't even import it, not allowed by law to purchase or import it.
Unfortunately I have no option but to use the low VOC.

Is anybody successfully using the Low VOC formulation without finishing issues? Seems WL claim it works as well if not better on their website, but most people seem to have more success with the original and have abandoned Low VOC.

[Jim Clelland]

Just to update this thread. Shellac on a kitchen countertop under waterlox, bad idea. Shellac melts at 80C, and even with a cork mat down, anything hot melts the shellac underneath and the waterlox delaminates. (Anyway shellac doesn't solve the bubbling on the surface either). It's not silicone or wax contamination (ruled out those), and it's not humudity (tried both in low humidity and higher humidity).

Also, anything heavy say a gallon of water on a cork mat for a few days and the cork marks the waterlox permanently, even after 3 months of drying.

End conclusion, if you want something that is practical in a kitchen and looks good when you're done, Waterlox is not it. I've spent over $800 on it and it looks like crap. This is the Low VOC, Original maybe better, I dunno, can't get that here because it's illegal to sell it. I've applied varnishes, bar top epoxies, shellac's, french polish and never had the issues I've had with this product. If you're considering using Waterlox for a kitchen countertop, run now whilst you have the chance and don't look back, if you're considering using it for another project and want something that's durable, wearable and has a good smooth surface, consider something else.

[Adam Herman]

Jim:

not to counter you. Horrible experience all around and very interesting to some, as we have had great luck with WaterLox. Our maple/walnut/long leaf pine bowling ally island takes a beating and looks great. What did you finally do for your countertop?

We used the low voc formula.

[Jim Clelland]

Jim:
What did you finally do for your countertop?

Currently I have 2 of the 4 countertops with melted marks due to shellac used underneath where hot water was split and melted the shellac (followed the recommendations to try shellac on this forum).
The other 2 I already re-did and have only waterlox, and one of those marked today from cork pads and some weight for a couple of days (no heat). Weight was a gallon of water distributed over 4 x 8 inch diameter 3/8 inch cork pads (the type typically used for pans). All of the counter tops have been refinished about 5 times by now, everything failed and finish looks like crap. Final iteration was everything sanded out to bare wood, xylene, dennys blue towel technique, 8 coats, 24 hours between coats, Pure Stoddard Solvent wipe and dry between coats and light scotch Fine pad and wait 24 hours and solvent wipe prior to final coat. Nothing solved the dry spots that appeared, just decided to live with them. Tried a variety of application tehcniques, pads, brushes.

Going forward, I'll be stripping everything back to wood again and then likely epoxy on top.

[Adam Herman]

we have epoxied concrete for the rest of our kitchen, and it took about 3 months for the epoxy to fully cure. just an fyi. Not sure what brand it was, as someone else put it in. my french press left dents where the metal feet got warm and I pushed the plunger down every morning.

[Thomas Hutson]

I had similar problems when i was doing my vanity top. bubble or other wierd things in the surface. the issue i think is i was putting it on too thick and i did not get ALL of the dust off the piece before i started finishing it. my solution was after the 3rd coat or so was totally dry, i sanded it pretty good with 1k grit and the subsequent coats i wiped on with a lint free shop rag instead of brushing on with a foam brush. it filled everything and looks great now. cant even tell there was imperfections before. in my experience its best to not go thick. the first coat i keep wiping on and applying untill the wood soaks up most of the varnish. there will be areas that are tackier because they didnt soak up as much varnish. the ones spots that keep soaking it up i pay special attention to until they stop soaking up as much. but like i said the last 3 or 4 coats should be wiped on with a rag and thinly. no sanding between final coats..