Sawstop prevails over Bosch new news

[Van Huskey]

I assume this is an open link and doesn't require a subscription, if someone finds it does I will post the particulars.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2017/02/01/last-reaxx-tablesaw-us

[Jebediah Eckert]

Link works fine, I was wondering what happened with the Bosch saw.

[Mikail Khan]

Link works.

Hopefully Bosch will drop the price and sell these cheaply in the Caribbean.

MK

[George Bokros]

Wonder if Bosch will buy back their saws since the consumer cannot buy replacement cartridges once they no longer work.

The technology is not the same so personally I do not see how Bosch is infringing on SS technology.

[glenn bradley]

Link works.

Hopefully Bosch will drop the price and sell these cheaply in the Caribbean.

MK

So there is a silver lining.

[mreza Salav]

This might not be the end but is what I predicted/expected.

[eugene thomas]

So when does saws top patten exspire?

[Bruce Mack]

Bosch acted as a jackal and brought little new to the party (yes, I'm aware that the blade was was not trashed with triggering). I have a Ridgid 3660 but admire the quality of the Sawstop products and Gass's invention and entrepreneurialism.

[Chris Hachet]

So when does saws top patten exspire?In 2020 or 2021. I expect that Jointers, band-saws, and everything else will be available with that technology at that point.

[Van Huskey]

So when does saws top patten exspire?

IIRC the ORIGINAL patent expires in 2022 or 2023. Again just going from memory.

[Chris Hachet]

Wonder if Bosch will buy back their saws since the consumer cannot buy replacement cartridges once they no longer work.

The technology is not the same so personally I do not see how Bosch is infringing on SS technology.In a very real sense of irony, part of how I am buying a non saw stop (vintage Unisaw) table saw is with money I will be getting back from Volkswagen when I sell back a Diesel Jetta. Will be buying some other vintage American woodworking iron with that money as well.

The buy back thing is a slippery slope. Apparently some vintage Radial arm saws are being bought back because of a feature with the guard...and the buy back goes back to products built as long ago as 1958.

You can check out the buy back by googling Radial Arm saw recall I think.

At any rate, yes they will probably have to buy them back and possibly resell them in another market or destroy them, sadly...

[Chris Hachet]

Bosch acted as a jackal and brought little new to the party (yes, I'm aware that the blade was was not trashed with triggering). I have a Ridgid 3660 but admire the quality of the Sawstop products and Gass's invention and entrepreneurialism.I admire the entrepreneurship of Gass as well.

[Roger Feeley]

couldn't Bosch buy them back and disable the safety system and then resell them to recoup some of the loss?

[Jerome Stanek]

couldn't Bosch just send out a retrofit cartridge that doesn't discharge

[Ben Rivel]

IIRC the ORIGINAL patent expires in 2022 or 2023. Again just going from memory.Nice. Means my SawStop PCS will hold its value until then! lol

[Rich Riddle]

Some of us have the cartridges to last until then, unless we go crazy.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Patent laws and enforcement are what they are, and I understand and generally support the spirit of it all. But I can't help but be a bit bummed out by this- I was looking forward to finally seeing some competition. That said, their patents only last 4-5 more years, so this is a temporary condition I guess.

I know SS is not a huge company and I do love my PCS, but I'm really disappointed with their lack of subsequent innovation. Lots of other tools cut off body parts, and I used to assume the table saw was just their first product category. Have they squandered an opportunity to get way out in front of the competition? I guess we shall see in a few years!

It will be interesting to see what the technicality was that caused the cease and desist... i.e., is it the blade stopping tech, the flesh sensing? some tiny aspect of one of those things? etc

[Ben Rivel]

Patent laws and enforcement are what they are, and I understand and generally support the spirit of it all. But I can't help but be a bit bummed out by this- I was looking forward to finally seeing some competition. That said, their patents only last 4-5 more years, so this is a temporary condition I guess.

I know SS is not a huge company and I do love my PCS, but I'm really disappointed with their lack of subsequent innovation. Lots of other tools cut off body parts, and I used to assume the table saw was just their first product category. Have they squandered an opportunity to get way out in front of the competition? I guess we shall see in a few years!

It will be interesting to see what the technicality was that caused the cease and desist... i.e., is it the blade stopping tech, the flesh sensing? some tiny aspect of one of those things? etcYea really! Where the heck are the other SawStop tools?!

[Simon MacGowen]

Nice. Means my SawStop PCS will hold its value until then! lol

May be a little longer than that. It all depends on if any maker will release a product that is good as SawStop's (price, quality, service, etc.) as soon as the patents expire. If not, that means SawStop will still dominate the cabinet saw sector till a new competitive saw comes out.

Interesting that SawStop has had such a successful run (25? by the time the patents run out) because other saw makers and SawStop could not work out any licensing deal. In the end, the SS technology will benefit every one and Gass will be remembered as the inventor of such awesome safety feature.

Simon

[Van Huskey]

May be a little longer than that. It all depends on if any maker will release a product that is good as SawStop's (price, quality, service, etc.) as soon as the patents expire. If not, that means SawStop will still dominate the cabinet saw sector till a new competitive saw comes out.



Simon

It will be interesting to watch since the cabinet saw sector is getting smaller every day. For many reasons industry uses fewer and fewer cabinet saws. I think the real market is the one Bosch went after, the site saw.

[Van Huskey]

Some of us have the cartridges to last until then, unless we go crazy.


One could argue the Bosch is now the safest saw since people will be even more careful not to fire a cartridge. :D

[Simon MacGowen]

Cabinet saw sector getting smaller? Please cite source. My local WC store has consistently sold more SS cabinet saws than the Contractor Saws & jobsite saws combined. Delta and Powermatic are still making and selling cabinet saws with no signs of retreating.

Simon

[John Lankers]

The Bosch is still available here in Canada, I haven't looked around but I'm sure they also sell replacement cartridges.
http://www.elitetools.ca/en/product/reaxx-gts1041a-safety-table-saw-bosch-gts1041a/

[Van Huskey]

Cabinet saw sector getting smaller? Please cite source. My local WC store has consistently sold more SS cabinet saws than the Contractor Saws & jobsite saws combined. Delta and Powermatic are still making and selling cabinet saws with no signs of retreating.

Simon

Are you suggesting that cabinet saws outsell site saws? Hobbyists are now the driving force in cabinet saws and the market your local WC sells to, the closest HD or Lowes to that WC probably sells 10 (or more) times as many site saws in a year than the WC sells cabinet saws and there are probably 50 times as many big box stores as brick and mortar dealers for cabinet saws in the US.

[Jim Dwight]

I don't admire much about Gass. We could all use his technology if he was not so greedy.

I agree that blocking importation is a big step against Bosch but it will only be over if they decide it is over. They can appeal.

[Chris Hachet]

I don't admire much about Gass. We could all use his technology if he was not so greedy.

I agree that blocking importation is a big step against Bosch but it will only be over if they decide it is over. They can appeal.And they have lots of money to hire lawyers for that appeal. Could get interesting.

[Van Huskey]

And they have lots of money to hire lawyers for that appeal. Could get interesting.

The problem is Bosch has lost at every (major step) thus far and the judicial standard for reversal keeps getting higher and higher.

I have said, however, IMO Bosch's strategy has been multi-pronged from with a more or less zero chance of losing on every option.

1. Develop a product they WILL sell in the US market at some point

2. Attempt to penetrate the US market prior to the patents expiring

3. Build awareness of the product and develop goodwill among those that dislike SS

4. Develop feedback on their product in the real world

5. Exploit markets not controlled by SS patents

6. Reduce SS's legal war chest to hinder their legal power in the future and/or hamper R&D efforts going forward


I think if they can not support the prior purchasers they will need to implement a painless buy-back system in order to maintain the goodwill. I think this as a calculated bet on Bosch's part and while they did not accomplish all I think they set out to do I have the feeling they went into this seeing it is likely a no-lose situation.

[Simon MacGowen]

No, I wasn't suggesting WC sells more saws than HD or more cabinet saws are sld than contractor saws and jobsite saws. I am saying WC (by implication, SawStop as well) sells more SS cabinet saws than SS contractor/jobsite saws. And I am asking you to cite source to support your saying that the cabinet saw sector is shrinking. At new shops and schools, cabinet saws rather than contractors are installed. I have not come across any trade stats or news that suggests the cabinet saws' demand is going downhill.

The contractor saw or jobsite site sector may expand but that doesn't necessarily mean the cabinet saw sector has shrunk. The woodworking sector is not a zero-sum game.

Simon

[John Terefenko]

I guess they will now have to take off the episode of Ask This Old House where Tommy demonstrates the Bosch job site saw. To me the idea is the same but the technology is different and I think Bosch has a better idea. Also a cheaper way of doing it. I hope Bosch does stay in the game. Competition is what builds America

[Van Huskey]

No, I wasn't suggesting WC sells more saws than HD or more cabinet saws are sld than contractor saws and jobsite saws. I am saying WC (by implication, SawStop as well) sells more SS cabinet saws than SS contractor/jobsite saws. And I am asking you to cite source to support your saying that the cabinet saw sector is shrinking. At new shops and schools, cabinet saws rather than contractors are installed. I have not come across any trade stats or news that suggests the cabinet saws' demand is going downhill.

The contractor saw or jobsite site sector may expand but that doesn't necessarily mean the cabinet saw sector has shrunk. The woodworking sector is not a zero-sum game.

Simon

Go to the major trade shows like IWF and AWFS and talk to the management of companies who build them or have built them. Look at the fact they are they are no longer used in the vast majority of industry and the decline of trade schools and shop classes along with the shift in the remaining schools away from teaching the use of traditional woodworking tools because they are not used in industry. Cabinet saws are just a tiny part of the woodworking machine industry and they get smaller everyday. The floors of IWF and AWFS used to have a lot of cabinet saws on display and now you see very few outnumbered by sliders being marketed to cabinet shops. The days of traditional woodworking machines are numbered and cabinet saws are likely the first to become extinct (maybe only proceeded by large bandsaws) . SS actually threw the cabinet saw a lifeline but only for a few years.

[Simon MacGowen]

"Cabinet saws are just a tiny part of the woodworking machine industry and they get smaller everyday."

I can agree to the first part of this sentence, but not the rest, till someone can cite a source (trade stats, sales volumes and what not) rather than what one can see in tradeshows. The last time I was the AWFS, I hardly saw any routers, but I would not venture to say routers are going out of favor among woodworkers.

Simon

[Dan Friedrichs]

Go to the major trade shows like IWF and AWFS and talk to the management of companies who build them or have built them. Look at the fact they are they are no longer used in the vast majority of industry and the decline of trade schools and shop classes along with the shift in the remaining schools away from teaching the use of traditional woodworking tools because they are not used in industry. Cabinet saws are just a tiny part of the woodworking machine industry and they get smaller everyday. The floors of IWF and AWFS used to have a lot of cabinet saws on display and now you see very few outnumbered by sliders being marketed to cabinet shops. The days of traditional woodworking machines are numbered and cabinet saws are likely the first to become extinct (maybe only proceeded by large bandsaws) . SS actually threw the cabinet saw a lifeline but only for a few years.

And factor in obsolescence/wear. Delta can only sell so many Unisaws because they'll easily last 50-100 years. The jobsite saw that has to be light-weight enough to throw into the back of a truck or hauled up flights of stairs is going to be replaced much more frequently.

[Rich Riddle]

When the dust clears after the SawStop patents expire, the REAXX will likely return.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Simon, I think it would be very hard to come across that sort of data. But I think Van is certainly right. The volume of cabinet saws sold must be orders of magnitudes less than jobsite saws.

Just look at the gloat threads posted on this forum. There's easily a thread once every week about someone buying a new sliding table saw, a new bandsaw, getting a great deal on a used table saw, or even buying a new SawStop.....but I'd challenge you to find more than a handful of threads over the life of SMC where someone is showing off their brand new Unisaw or PM66.

[Van Huskey]

"Cabinet saws are just a tiny part of the woodworking machine industry and they get smaller everyday."

I can agree to the first part of this sentence, but not the rest, till someone can cite a source (trade stats, sales volumes and what not) rather than what one can see in tradeshows. The last time I was the AWFS, I hardly saw any routers, but I would not venture to say routers are going out of favor among woodworkers.

Simon

You saw plenty of routers at AWFS you just didn't identify them as routers...they were the things taking up half a city block and are the reason bandsaws for example are dying. (Actually at every IWF and AFS most of the major players have their hand held routers present, Bosch, Milwaukee, Festool, Dewalt and PC usually all have routers on display).

As for cites, simply cite something that refutes what I am saying. If you can't we will each be left with what we each "know" to be the facts.

[Van Huskey]

When the dust clears after the SawStop patents expire, the REAXX will likely return.


Yes, absolutely, that was #1 in my guesses of how Bosch approached this and while the saw may be in the next generation it may well use the same cartridge or even if it doesn't I would imagine they would go back to support the current model if nothing else but repaying the good will.

[Simon MacGowen]

"As for cites, simply cite something that refutes what I am saying. If you can't we will each be left with what we each "know" to be the facts"

That says it all; your saying that the cabinet saw's market is shrinking is not proven. Period.

Simon

[Peter Kuhlman]

While hard data may not be available I think it is fairly obvious the market is changing quite fast.
I know a couple cabinet shop guys and they have no traditional cabinet saws. Using sliders primarily and one is switching over to some type of computerized machine that you feed raw material in one end and out comes the desired cabinet - very expensive up front but fast and accurate. Yea I can understand the cabinet saw market in cabinet shops no longer applies.

For hobbiests they are just too expensive and heavy. I recently purchased the top Dewalt job site saw and can see that replacing my cabinet saw if it had a more accurate fence - just to save space and have easier mobility. Can use my track saw for sheet goods breakdown. With home lots shrinking and prices increasing most no longer can have an external shop or are working outdoors and storing their stuff in smaller sheds. Traditional cabinet saws are of no use for them. I am hoping to move some time this year but have not found a single house with an existing structure or basement that I can set up the type shop I want. Building an external shop gets really expensive when in a subdivision due to regulations as my neighbor found out.

Routers are still popular for hobbiests but the CNC type machines are taking over in businesses. Yea they still currently mostly use router motors in those. I have seen far more air operated power tools lately used in businesses but don't know if they make air operated router type tools.

The markets have really changed around here over the last 20 years - really noticeable in any stores that sell tools. I have not seen a contractor style table saw in a while now in the big box stores or Sears - all job site style saws. Sure they are available to order. We have one heavy machinery store in the area and a couple years ago it had about 10 cabinet saws in the showroom but last time I was there they only had 2. Much of the big iron was gone and replaced with modern computer controlled equipment.

[Chris Hachet]

While hard data may not be available I think it is fairly obvious the market is changing quite fast.
I know a couple cabinet shop guys and they have no traditional cabinet saws. Using sliders primarily and one is switching over to some type of computerized machine that you feed raw material in one end and out comes the desired cabinet - very expensive up front but fast and accurate. Yea I can understand the cabinet saw market in cabinet shops no longer applies.

For hobbiests they are just too expensive and heavy. I recently purchased the top Dewalt job site saw and can see that replacing my cabinet saw if it had a more accurate fence - just to save space and have easier mobility. Can use my track saw for sheet goods breakdown. With home lots shrinking and prices increasing most no longer can have an external shop or are working outdoors and storing their stuff in smaller sheds. Traditional cabinet saws are of no use for them. I am hoping to move some time this year but have not found a single house with an existing structure or basement that I can set up the type shop I want. Building an external shop gets really expensive when in a subdivision due to regulations as my neighbor found out.

Routers are still popular for hobbiests but the CNC type machines are taking over in businesses. Yea they still currently mostly use router motors in those.

The markets have really changed around here over the last 20 years - really noticeable in any stores that sell tools. Agree completely. Will be interesting to see what the next 20 years brings-many of the older hobbyists will be out of woodworking, many of the smaller cabinet shops will be gone, and people are rapidly moving away from traditional single family homes in terms of housing.

[Chris Hachet]

The problem is Bosch has lost at every (major step) thus far and the judicial standard for reversal keeps getting higher and higher.

I have said, however, IMO Bosch's strategy has been multi-pronged from with a more or less zero chance of losing on every option.

1. Develop a product they WILL sell in the US market at some point

2. Attempt to penetrate the US market prior to the patents expiring

3. Build awareness of the product and develop goodwill among those that dislike SS

4. Develop feedback on their product in the real world

5. Exploit markets not controlled by SS patents

6. Reduce SS's legal war chest to hinder their legal power in the future and/or hamper R&D efforts going forward


I think if they can not support the prior purchasers they will need to implement a painless buy-back system in order to maintain the goodwill. I think this as a calculated bet on Bosch's part and while they did not accomplish all I think they set out to do I have the feeling they went into this seeing it is likely a no-lose situation.


If nothing else this will generate a lot of attention and sympathy for Bosch, so in many ways it will be a net win for them.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

You hear about those new chisels with flesh sensing technology? :D

I heard that the patent was on flesh sensing technology as it applies to wood working... My dog has pretty good flesh sensing technology. "hey, can I eat that?"

I kind of preferred the Bosch technology since it was less likely to require a new blade and I think that you could reuse the brake a few times, I could be remembering wrong.

If Bosch desires, I am sure that SawStop will license the patent to them, but I heard that the fee was very high.

Not had a firing on my SawStop and it seems to be holding up fine.

[Chris Hachet]

You hear about those new chisels with flesh sensing technology? :D

I heard that the patent was on flesh sensing technology as it applies to wood working... My dog has pretty good flesh sensing technology. "hey, can I eat that?"

I kind of preferred the Bosch technology since it was less likely to require a new blade and I think that you could reuse the brake a few times, I could be remembering wrong.

If Bosch desires, I am sure that SawStop will license the patent to them, but I heard that the fee was very high.

Not had a firing on my SawStop and it seems to be holding up fine.I have tested the flesh sensing technology on my chisels and it does not work very well at all. Your saw stop on the other hand works beautifully, as long as one does not try to put wood with crazy internal stress through the thing...

[Carl Hunsinger]

couldn't Bosch just send out a retrofit cartridge that doesn't discharge

Not if I had one, they couldn't. Maybe a non-brake retrofit cartridge wrapped in a check for $1000, then maybe we would have a deal.

Carl

[Rich Riddle]

This one works just fine on the farm.... I have eleven spare fires and hope that will last until they can return.

353074

[Van Huskey]

"As for cites, simply cite something that refutes what I am saying. If you can't we will each be left with what we each "know" to be the facts"

That says it all; your saying that the cabinet saw's market is shrinking is not proven. Period.

Simon

Nor is your position, period.

I talk to the people who are in charge of the companies who build them, if anyone knows then they do. Beyond that everything I see in the market place supports what they have told me. Ignore me, prove me wrong or accept what I say, your choice.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have tested the flesh sensing technology on my chisels and it does not work very well at all. Your saw stop on the other hand works beautifully, as long as one does not try to put wood with crazy internal stress through the thing...

You have that all wrong, on a chisel, it seeks out flesh and tastes it...

[Chris Padilla]

Mine usually seeks out the tiny strip of concrete my mat isn't covering up when I drop it.... :(

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Mine usually seeks out the tiny strip of concrete my mat isn't covering up when I drop it.... :(

Concrete probably has some similar characteristics to flesh. You can test this premise with your sawstop by breaking out some of that concrete from your floor and touching it to your sawstop blade to see if it fires the brake.... Come to think about it, perhaps the chisel really has concrete sensing technology built in and my leg simply got in the way of the chisel in its search for the concrete. Luckily, my leg spared the chisel serious damage by slowing down the blade. Hell, who am I kidding, I don't that chisel slowed down as it took a gash out of my leg on its way towards that concrete floor. Butterfly bandages were my friend that day.

[Chris Hachet]

Concrete probably has some similar characteristics to flesh. You can test this premise with your sawstop by breaking out some of that concrete from your floor and touching it to your sawstop blade to see if it fires the brake.... Come to think about it, perhaps the chisel really has concrete sensing technology built in and my leg simply got in the way of the chisel in its search for the concrete. Luckily, my leg spared the chisel serious damage by slowing down the blade. Hell, who am I kidding, I don't that chisel slowed down as it took a gash out of my leg on its way towards that concrete floor. Butterfly bandages were my friend that day.

There is a reason every woodworking shop should have a first aid kit....

[Rich Riddle]

Does the Bosch REAXX violate any Canadian patents? Will our neighbors to the north still have access to them?

[John Lankers]

Does the Bosch REAXX violate any Canadian patents? Will our neighbors to the north still have access to them?

I'm aware of two retailers that have the Bosch showing as 'In Stock' on their website. Maybe, I'm just speculating, since the Canadian market is under 10% of the American market they don't bother taking it to court, but as I said I'm just speculating.

[Curt Harms]

I'm aware of two retailers that have the Bosch showing as 'In Stock' on their website. Maybe, I'm just speculating, since the Canadian market is under 10% of the American market they don't bother taking it to court, but as I said I'm just speculating.

I think it may have to do with the U.S. patent system being out of step with most of the rest of the world. I wonder if FRAND can be applied to SawStop. If Steve Gass is really so concerned about preventing injuries, he should be content to make a reasonable profit.

https://www.law360.com/articles/487354/valuing-frand-obligated-patents-an-emerging-consensus



Valuing FRAND-Obligated Patents: An Emerging Consensus

Law360, New York (November 27, 2013, 5:55 PM EST) -- A consensus on both the methodology for calculating a fair, reasonable and nondiscriminatory royalty and the unavailability of injunctive relief to FRAND-obligated patent holders is emerging, at least in federal district court and at the U.S. International Trade Commission. Both the determined royalty rate and the availability of injunctive remedies are important factors when valuing any patent. The emerging trend with respect to FRAND-obligated patents may require FRAND-obligated patent holders to re-examine and temper their licensing demands.

[David J Blackburn]

FRAND would be applicable if Glass had been successful in getting his technology as a part of a required safety standard. In that case, almost surely there would've been a requirement that he license anyone that wants to make a table saw and that he do so on FRAND terms. But as we all know, that didn't happen.