Neiader or Not

[Don Baer]

OK I am at a cross road. I figure that a larger planer and Joiner are out of my budget at this time. I have a small 4" table top Joiner(more on this in another thread). I am getting ready to start a project where I will be building 3 small table out of QSWO. I willl be book matching boards for the tops and joining them so I will need a joiner and a planer for this operation (they'lll be about 18"x18"). I have no problem learning new techniques and try to follow the advice of a master wood worker in I want to use the right tool for the right job. I know that I am going to have to buy a new tool :) to do this right so my question is should I spend my money on a power planer (hand held) or should use this money for a good quality hand plane?
I haven't heard how the hand held power planes compaer to the non power version. Time to do the work is not a factor and I have heard that a properly tuned hand plane will eliiminate sanding.

[Mark Singer]

Don,
I love hand tools...., however a planer is an essential tool in the workshop. You can get all your material to the same thickness! That is an important task and will leed to far better results. A hand plane is a necessity also....get a small power planer first. They work surprisingly well. The SMC tool mavens will tell you which is the hot ticket ....

[Jeff Sudmeier]

A power planer is a great tool, which can be used sucessfully. However, IMHO they are way too short to use as a jointer. The jointer planes are probably twice as long.

You can get good results with your table top jointer, just practice with it. I did my earlier projects with a small jointer as well.

[Don Baer]

I guess I forgot to tell one thing about the construction. I am planning on resawing a pices of 8/4 QSWO for the top and book matching it. I can use the little joiner for joining that's not a problem my concern is flatening the top after it's joined. Does this change the situation ?

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Don, you would probably be better off getting a decent 3x21 or 4x24 belt sander. That is still what I use for flattening peices. Use them at 45 degrees to the grain to flatten the top, then with the grain to take out the larger scratches. I wouldn't consider a powered hand planer for this task. I use mine for rough stock removal, then finish up with the belt sander.

As you get used to the belt sander, you get pretty good at it :)

[Andy Hoyt]

I strongly encourage a smaller belt sander such as a 3x21, especially on a smaller piece like the one Don describes. He'll have more control since the 3x21 will weigh considerably less.

[Dev Emch]

Don...

First of all, a power planer is more like a power jointer. It is a hand plane with an electric motor. They have their place.

Second, there is nothing wrong with using hand tools (i.e. hand planes). In fact, I love them. During the winter months, I build custom made infill planes that are more like jewlery than tools. The wrath of living in seasonal environments. Did you guys see how we got hammered with up to 2 feet of snow this weekend on CNN?

Endless blogs have been written over the Normites versus the Galoots or Neanderthals. Truth is, many woodworkers are both. Getting started with hand tools saves you money, gets you into projects and builds your skill levels. Later on, you can get the big heavy toys. But you will usually keep the hand tools as yet another option.

Getting started with hand tools is no picnic. You are open to lots of trial and error and you will make mistakes. Learning exercises. But I can point you you the general direction.

First of all, you will need some sort of planing bench. It does not have to be a huge hunk of furniture grade maple with ka-jillion specialty vises. But something simple, sturdy and equiped with a leg vise of some sort. There are lots of plans for building quick work benchs from structural lumber (2x) and using inexpensive vises. Its also a good exercise to practice hand tool skills to build confidence.

Second. If at all posible, you should contact Highland Hardware in GA and buy the four videos from Jim Kingshot before they are no longer available. Jim passed away a few years ago and his loss is still affecting many of us. He was a true master of master craftsmen! Not only is this guy plain out good but he has an excellent sense of humor and an awsome camera personality. A rare combination in most how to videos. You will learn how to do many magic things that heretofore you had no idea of how to do.

One of the videos goes into BENCH planes. Here you will learn how to tune them up, keep them nice and razor sharp and how to use them to dimension timber. You will learn how to take a hunk of firewood and turn it into an accurate, fully dimensioned board ready for any further projects. You will learn how to use winding sticks. This is critical! And you will see him using a custom made, 30 inch norris reproduction jointer plane that can split a sheet of paper in two! With this plane, he works to within thousandths!

In successive videos, you will learn how to use speciality planes to cut dados, rabbits, curves, etc. How molding planes work. How to use hollows and rounds. The remaining two will show you how to hand cut correct mortise and tenon joints and lastly, how to hand cut half lap dovetails.

Then you will need some planes. For getting started, you cannot beat Lie Nielsen. Compared to my stuff, they are cheap! But you can go much cheaper if need be. I have actually found a few later model bedrock stanley planes on ebay. Again, short of busted castings, most of these garage rust queens can be brought back to life to pristine condition. Being a shop tool, I would not be that concerned about original japaning finishes. If the japaning finish is bad, gone or you need to remove it, no worries. Do it and repaint the areas with standard industrail paint. No Problems. The tune up will be good practice and you can use some sheet glass, light machine oil and emory cloth to do most of this. Jim covers the gore as needed in his videos.

All of this should get you started in your quest. Granted, it will be easier to use power tools for most of this work esp. if you have some bandwidth to cover with hand tools. But in time, even some of the most ardent power tool normites will break down and begin using hand tools.

Now as for the power plane(r). This is a motorized jointer. If you really need to, you can flip this beastie upside down and mount it in a vise or other clamp arrangement. Even festool has photos of this in their catalog. Once mounted, you can use this as you would a normal jointer. Its great for cleaning up bandsawn resaw faces in preping up for the next resaw slice. But most of these are fairly narrow. I personally do not own one and have not had the ambition of getting one. I think if you do lots of timber frame work, one of these can be handy. Its easier to clean up a beam by bringing the tool to the wood instead of the wood to the tool. For now, I have had no need for one of these.

Hope this all helps a bit...

[Roger Myers]

Don,
Excellent points made by Dev and others regarding the journey into hand tools (it is inevitable, don't fight it :) ) What you want to do can certainly be done with hand tools and done well.... lot's of 18th century masterpieces around to support that.. The learning curve may be a little steep at times, but knowing how to use hand tools well only serves to make you more proficient with power tools. You learn very quickly how to read grain, 4square a board, etc.
As to your question about flattening the table top... Yes you can do this.. as an example, the table in this thread
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17109
was made entirely with hand tools. Top is not a single board, but two boards, matched, glued, flattened and smoothed. May be a little tougher in oak than in mahogany, but not by much.
You will need a good smoothing plane..Dev is right about the Lie Nielsons, but you can also do well with planes at Lee Valley. Search the archives here for many opinions and lots of good advice...
If, no when, you have questions..just ask!
Roger

[Mike Vermeil]

Don, I love using my antique hand planes as well as my flea market block plane, but I literally cannot imagine working wood without a planer (lunch box style - not a power planer which is more for working the edges of boards than planing). While you can always work around a lack of tool or tools, working around a planer is IMHO an excercise in frustration. Getting all of your boards to the correct and same thickness with a planer will make every project you work on so much easier you'll wonder what was wrong with yourself for not having purchased one sooner.

[Vaughn McMillan]

Don, I've used my Makita power (hand-held) plane to start flattening real rough cutting board glue-ups, but as Jeff mentioned, you'll want to go to something with more control (belt sander, hand plane, inexpensive cabinet scraper, etc.) to get a final flattening of a table top. (The best bet is to get the glue-up nicely aligned so you don't have a lot of flattening to do in the first place. ;) ) You can do a lot of damage in just a little time with a power plane on a flat surface. DAMHIKT. They're better suited for edges than faces, IMHO.

- Vaughn

P.S. Don't ever run over the power cord of a Makita power plane with a Makita power plane. DAMHIKT, either. It was a clean cut though...not many sparks.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Don, I've used my Makita power (hand-held) plane to start flattening real rough cutting board glue-ups, but as Jeff mentioned, you'll want to go to something with more control (belt sander, hand plane, inexpensive cabinet scraper, etc.) to get a final flattening of a table top. (The best bet is to get the glue-up nicely aligned so you don't have a lot of flattening to do in the first place. ;) ) You can do a lot of damage in just a little time with a power plane on a flat surface. DAMHIKT. They're better suited for edges than faces, IMHO.

- Vaughn

P.S. Don't ever run over the power cord of a Makita power plane with a Makita power plane. DAMHIKT, either. It was a clean cut though...not many sparks.

Vaughn, you know what the scarry part is, I agree with both points!! They can do lots of damage and they cut a power cord in a hurry! However, I caught mine and created LOTS of sparks!!

[Tom Jones III]

I definitely suggest going with the hand plane route. This suggestion is influenced by 3 points you made in your original post 1. small project size 2. you have a table top jointer 3. you are willing to take some time to get it done.

Take a look at this post for my first ever hand plane that I made http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24410
I was in much the same boat as you when I made this plane. My situation is described in that post and the post linked from it. Take a look at the top of the pembroke table that I smoothed with the home made plane and a card scraper. Not too bad from someone who is not patient and is making their first try at hand planing.

There is a significant learning curve to hand planes but it is very worthwhile. Don't get overwhelmed by the need to purchase 72 antique hand planes, or new planes that cost as much as a lunchbox planer. I surfaced my first table top with the hand plane above ($30), a $25 Anant #4 hand plane, and a $1 card scraper.

Take a good look at this book:
Handplane Book
Garret Hack
ISBN: 1561587125 (http://1561587125)

[Don Baer]

OK Guys, I guess I don't need to buy any new tools for this project since I already have a belt sander and card scrapers..:(

Although I my still pick up a hand plane since it's a skill that I should learn and I can still resort to my belt sander if needed.:rolleyes:


Oh and thanks for all the help, you guys are great.

[Charlie Plesums]

Years ago, before I had a jointer and planer, I bought a hand held power plane, hoping it would be a cheap substitute for the real thing. Each time I used it, I had to rescue the project - lack of length and lack of control made me butcher wood with it. It has been on the shelf for about 30 years... every couple years I get it out, ruin some wood with it, and remember why it stays on the shelf.

I now use a large jointer and planer, and a saw that doesn't leave edges that need to be jointed. I also inherited and use the hand planes that I learned on over 50 years ago. I use a belt sander, drum sander, and several ROS, but I don't use that hand-held power plane.

Did I mention, that I recommend you not get a hand held power plane?

[Don Baer]

Years ago, before I had a jointer and planer, I bought a hand held power plane, hoping it would be a cheap substitute for the real thing. Each time I used it, I had to rescue the project - lack of length and lack of control made me butcher wood with it. It has been on the shelf for about 30 years... every couple years I get it out, ruin some wood with it, and remember why it stays on the shelf.

I now use a large jointer and planer, and a saw that doesn't leave edges that need to be jointed. I also inherited and use the hand planes that I learned on over 50 years ago. I use a belt sander, drum sander, and several ROS, but I don't use that hand-held power plane.

Did I mention, that I recommend you not get a hand held power plane?

Gee Charlie so you don't recommend a Hand held Power Planer.

Nah If I'm gonna get a plane It'll be a LEE Valley or some such Manual plane.
;)