What am I doing wrong????

[Kevin Smira]

Just picked up a Veritas 14tpi dovetail saw. This is my first saw that I'm using by hand for "actual" work. I've got a 1x4 pic of select pine in my "vise" on my bench. I cannot get the cut started without pulling the saw back some and making a trench for it to ride in. I'm using paraffin wax on the plate, using a marking knife to make a cut line, holding the saw right...can't figure it out. Once it actually starts going, it seems to cut fine. However, on the "back side" of my cuts, there are fuzzy's like where the saw just pushed material back there? I searched, but didn't know the set of keywords to use to get my response that made sense.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Tony Wilkins]

Just picked up a Veritas 14tpi dovetail saw. This is my first saw that I'm using by hand for "actual" work. I've got a 1x4 pic of select pine in my "vise" on my bench. I cannot get the cut started without pulling the saw back some and making a trench for it to ride in. I'm using paraffin wax on the plate, using a marking knife to make a cut line, holding the saw right...can't figure it out. Once it actually starts going, it seems to cut fine. However, on the "back side" of my cuts, there are fuzzy's like where the saw just pushed material back there? I searched, but didn't know the set of keywords to use to get my response that made sense.

Thanks,
Kevin

others probably have a better idea than I, but how soft is the pine? Are you "lightening" the saw to get it started, i.e. Just barely kissing the stock with the teeth? I found that once I got the touch right that I didn't need to pull back (as I've heard that's bad practice). Also, are you starting straight across or beginning on the far edge and inching back?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

As far as getting it started smoothly, I would say just practice. Like Tony said, the usual advice is to start the cut on the far side, with the saw at a shallow angle. Once you get going, you can increase the angle, or lower it or whatever. There is a "Sweet spot" though where it seems to start best.

As far as the "fuzzies", you will have some. If you don't want any, you can knife the line, and that will help. Otherwise you will have some. It is a handsaw after all, not a laser.

[Mike Dowell]

Just picked up a Veritas 14tpi dovetail saw. This is my first saw that I'm using by hand for "actual" work. I've got a 1x4 pic of select pine in my "vise" on my bench. I cannot get the cut started without pulling the saw back some and making a trench for it to ride in. I'm using paraffin wax on the plate, using a marking knife to make a cut line, holding the saw right...can't figure it out. Once it actually starts going, it seems to cut fine. However, on the "back side" of my cuts, there are fuzzy's like where the saw just pushed material back there? I searched, but didn't know the set of keywords to use to get my response that made sense.

Thanks,
KevinNot what you want to hear, but I bought that saw as well and I hate it. I have learned now that I much prefer the "pull" saws, like Dozuki. My veritas push saw always seems to bind, and not want to cut.

[Pat Barry]

...I cannot get the cut started without pulling the saw back some ...
I do that - it helps enormously. Don't recall that its a no no and now I don't see why it would be.

[Shawn Christ]

I've had that saw for a few months now and had a similar experience when it was new. It really seemed to "bite the wood" and was hard to start, and I've seen others mention it too. The good news is it will settle down and get easier to start in no time -- just keep making cuts and practicing with it. Try starting your cut with the workpiece near the saw's tip and lightly push forward. I like to find the knife mark with my fingernail and use it as a guide to start the cut. I also get material on the backside of my workpiece, the "fuzzies" are easily removed. Don't get too discouraged just yet, keep at it, and I think you'll come to like that saw. It won't win any beauty contests but is a good value for the price.

[Prashun Patel]

You have to keep little pressure on the plate contacting the wood. it takes practice but there is no magic. Keep at it.

[glenn bradley]

I too just pull back about an inch, do a couple short back and forth strokes and then go to it.

[John Schtrumpf]

I do that - it helps enormously. Don't recall that its a no no and now I don't see why it would be.
I am with Pat on this. I feel dovetails should be an accurate cut. So I pull back once or twice, guiding with my thumb to make a shallow trench. I then place the saw in the trench, angle it for tails, then pull back and go.

[Tony Wilkins]

I'm not sure where along the way I was told not to pull back. Nor do I remember all of the reasoning beyond prematurely dulling the teeth. I have found that making the teeth just kissing the board as I start the cut slowly is more accurate for me and I no longer need to pull back.

[Jim Koepke]

The back bottom horn is on the saw for a reason. It is a delicate pressure with the heal of your hand against this to aid in just kissing the surface of the cut when getting a saw started. It takes a little practice to get used to it.

The exit side of the cut will have a bit more fuzziness than the entry side. This is a reason to make the cuts from the side that will be visible.

It might be helpful with knife marked lines to create a notch at the starting corner of your cut to help hold the saw to the line when starting.

jtk

[Ron Bontz]

Take it with a grain of salt. If you lean the saw forward you are increasing the hang/ rake. If you lean the saw back, you are decreasing the hang/ rake( less aggressive ). I test all my saws flat on the wood. There is no law against starting a saw by pulling it back. Only preferences and opinions. Lastly, a newly sharpened saw may be "sticky sharp". Especially in soft woods like pine. Also consider your posture/ stance in reference to the work piece. So a light touch and practice. You will learn what best works for you. Best wishes.

[Sean Hughto]

I don't know this saw, but there's nothing wrong generally with pulling back to start. Here's me from years ago cutting some tails in maple. I offer it only because it shows me starting and completing several cuts. Maybe it will give you some ideas to try. Let the saw do the work. Start it right and let your aim be to move it smoothly forward and back on a straight line. No need to steer or press down.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3653/3496155520_c25378c70a_z.jpg?zz=1 (https://flic.kr/p/6jWHes)sound effects (https://flic.kr/p/6jWHes) by Sean Hughto (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chevy_chase_hughtos/), on Flickr

[Curt Putnam]

You are not doing anything wrong, you just haven't got enough practice. I, too, am a newb at precision sawing and would offer the following after some 3 0r 4 thousand practice cuts. One thing to consider is Glen-Drakes's Kerf-Starter. Yes, it is a crutch but it may move your game downfield. Don't know if it is good practice or not, but I have started cuts closer to the heel than the toe - just for increased stiffness. With a sharp saw, you can simply set it down on end grain and then push forward (no down) and the saw will cut. I start at the back of the cut line now and just sort of give an extra push through that 1st resistance and then all is well until I wander off the cut line.
JMO & YMWV.

[ken hatch]

Sean,

I can't argue with the results but that "zipper" sound when you pull back makes my toes curl :D. I work differently, I start the kerf with the toe, make sure everything is alined and then make a light full saw plate cut check the kerf and correct if needed. As always there is no one correct way and YMMV.

ken

[Kevin Smira]

Thanks all for the comments. I have a friend (accomplished woodworker) that suggested that perhaps the set and rake were off from the factory? Do you think this could be the issue? I mean, no matter how lightly I have the saw on the wood, it will not go forward at all. Generally speaking though, once I get it going, and I do my part, it cuts extremely well.

[Sean Hughto]

We all find our ways. This works for me with minimal futzing. The sound never occurred to me as something to dislike.

[John Crawford]

It helps me to remember to take as much weight off the saw as possible when you are starting it.

There are some brief but helpful descriptions of this principle in this "Homestead Heritage School" video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1eta_uOw44

[Matt Evans]

You may be trying to go to slow. First time I used handsaws in general I had a difficult time establishing a kerf because I went to slow and to light. Set up your saw and use your fingers as a guide, then rapidly push to start your cut. I don't put pressure on the saw, just give it a quick half a saw plate length push forward. That gets me started and I can complete the cut from there without my thumb and forefinger as guides.

Takes a bit of practice to get going quickly and accurately, but lots of layout lines on scrap and a few hours time and you should be able to cut them fast and easy with that saw.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Kevin, if you live near Columbus Ohio, give me shout and stop by.

Assume I am using my Bad Axe saw, my easiest to start saw, and I am able to just drop it and go. Then, I switch to my Lie Nielsen. Nope, can't do it without a few test cuts and then i am mostly good to go.

On a whim, "start" the kerf with a chisel? Sometimes when I am cutting dovetails, i will drive a chisel into the line then cut out a small kerf size grove on the cut side of the line. I don't always do this, but sometimes it helps.

[Chuck Nickerson]

The back bottom horn is on the saw for a reason. It is a delicate pressure with the heal of your hand against this to aid in just kissing the surface of the cut when getting a saw started. It takes a little practice to get used to it.
jtk

Do not miss this comment, although Jim's version is a little different than mine. When starting a cut I apply my handle pressure on the lower half of the handle.
Its more vertical angle puts more of the force horizontal, helping the saw not dig in.

[Jim Koepke]

You may be trying to go to slow. First time I used handsaws in general I had a difficult time establishing a kerf because I went to slow and to light. Set up your saw and use your fingers as a guide, then rapidly push to start your cut. I don't put pressure on the saw, just give it a quick half a saw plate length push forward. That gets me started and I can complete the cut from there without my thumb and forefinger as guides.

Takes a bit of practice to get going quickly and accurately, but lots of layout lines on scrap and a few hours time and you should be able to cut them fast and easy with that saw.

This made me think a bit about my own technique.

As Matt says, draw a lot of layout lines on a piece of scrap. My cuts are started pretty much as Matt describes with one minor difference. The say blade is held a few thousandths of an inch above the surface when it is started forward and softly lowered to the work. You may get a bit of bouncing in the beginning, After a bit of practice you should be able to get a good kerf started.

My objection to pulling a saw back to start a cut is it can bounce around a bit and spoil the work. It can also make little divots in the kerf making it hard to get the say moving forward in the cut.

Sometimes just for a challenge when all the layout lines have been sawn, I will try cutting between the lines. Mostly this is done when a saw is in the process of being tuned up or sharpened.


Kevin, if you live near Columbus Ohio, give me shout and stop by.

Likewise if you are in the Portland, Oregon area.

jtk

[Kevin Smira]

This made me think a bit about my own technique.

As Matt says, draw a lot of layout lines on a piece of scrap. My cuts are started pretty much as Matt describes with one minor difference. The say blade is held a few thousandths of an inch above the surface when it is started forward and softly lowered to the work. You may get a bit of bouncing in the beginning, After a bit of practice you should be able to get a good kerf started.

My objection to pulling a saw back to start a cut is it can bounce around a bit and spoil the work. It can also make little divots in the kerf making it hard to get the say moving forward in the cut.

Sometimes just for a challenge when all the layout lines have been sawn, I will try cutting between the lines. Mostly this is done when a saw is in the process of being tuned up or sharpened.



Likewise if you are in the Portland, Oregon area.

jtk

Thanks for all the comments so far. If I was in Columbus or Portland, I would definitely stop by. However, I'm in North Alabama :)

[Kevin Smira]

So maybe it was just technique. I went back outside after work and tilted the toe of the saw (that's the front, right?) downward and it started much easier. As it got going, I dropped my hand down and it started cutting fairly good.

[Stewie Simpson]

Kevin; I haven't purchased any of the Veritas backsaws, but from viewing the general feedback the saw teeth tend to be aggressively set. Yours might need a light stoning on both sides to calm it down. That been said, they appear to be a good entry saw at an affordable cost. Hope it works out for you.

regards Stewie;

[William Fretwell]

If the saw does not work out for you try a Japanese pull saw. The long handle gives great control, the fine kerf is straight, a light touch gives you the result you need.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Kevin

Let's assume that the saw is good and it is user error. What could be going wrong?

Firstly, this saw has 14 degrees of rake, which should make it an easy starter, even if there was too much set. More set will increase resistance and accuracy, but will not affect the starting, per se.

Secondly, since you are new to this, it is likely that you are doing the newbie thing, that is, gripping the handle too tightly and using too much force. You need to hold the saw lightly, as if holding a baby's hand, and use light down force - essentially, let the weight of the saw do the cutting.

Thirdly, if you saw downwards, you will increase the effective rake and increase resistance ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m736c552e.jpg

What you want to do is the opposite of this, that is, saw upwards ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m654f2955.jpg

This will lower the effective rake and reduce resistance further.

Lastly, there is no shame in pulling the saw back before cutting forwards. Many do this. If it gets you sawing, so much the better, since the answer to your problem lies with practice.

Light hands, light saw, cutting upwards.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Engel]

Kevin,

So much depends on hand pressure and the type/grain of the wood that its difficult to comment whether its definitely the saw grabbing or not. If you're friend is experienced and thinks it is, it probably is. Keep in mind the 14TPI. I have both 14 and 20 and generally use the 14 in soft wood and 20 in hardwood.

All this being said, I will go against the current of the thread a bit and say I think you're friend might be correct to place to focus on the saw. The reason I say this is I also found the saw to be a bit more grabby than I expected. But they did get better the more I used them. I did lightly dress the teeth on one of them & I think it did help a bit. But this shouldn't be necessary.

After doing quite a few DT's , I have to say I am not really that happy with the sawn surface. I believe this has to do with the way the rake and set of the teeth are done at the factory. Don't get me wrong, I love LV and am very happy with all the other tools I have - except for these saws.

As for the back stroke, I've always started every hand saw cut like that unless ripping soft wood.

Bad Axe is out of my budget range, but I do plan to obtain a LN DT saw before my next big DT project. And I may have to eat my words about LV.......

[lowell holmes]

Hi Kevin




Lastly, there is no shame in pulling the saw back before cutting forwards.


Regards from Perth

Derek

Works for me.

[Derek Cohen]

Just to emphasise ...

The Veritas dovetail saws, both 14- and 20 tpi, have extremely relaxed rake, and this makes them some of the easiest saws to start. In fact, they cut slower than many others as a result. If you are finding them grabby, then it is more likely to be a user error. Of course, the saw could be at fault. The easiest way to check this is to try another's saw, while another tries your saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kevin Smira]

Just to emphasise ...

The Veritas dovetail saws, both 14- and 20 tpi, have extremely relaxed rake, and this makes them some of the easiest saws to start. In fact, they cut slower than many others as a result. If you are finding them grabby, then it is more likely to be a user error. Of course, the saw could be at fault. The easiest way to check this is to try another's saw, while another tries your saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks again Derek for the comments. I'll try sawing "upwards" when I get home tonight. I'll let you know how that helps. On a different/related note however... I did talk to LV yesterday and they said it very well could be the saw, but it could be user error as well. He said "if you don't like it, send it back and we'll make it right for you. Use it for a month and see if it gets better. If not, or even if you still don't like it, send it back and we'll make it right." That's customer service!

[Allen Jordan]

I have one of those saws and it is pretty grabby starting the cut. Maybe use the lightest possible downward pressure and do a clean full stroke forward to carry some momentum? Honestly I much prefer my cheap dozuki for dovetails.