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View Full Version : issues with Yeti and cermark



Jeremy Brown
01-21-2017, 8:39 PM
I've been experimenting with cermark on a yeti cup and I'm it's rubbing off. I'm using a 30watt VLS2.3 and before I sprayed on the cermark from the spray can I cleaned the surface with isopropyl alcohol.

First I followed I tried 100% power, 25 speed, 350 ppi. The images turned out well but when I rub on it, it begins to rub off
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g237/jbrown2252/IMG_20170121_202141_zpsidbiuuii.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/jbrown2252/media/IMG_20170121_202141_zpsidbiuuii.jpg.html)


So I started to read through the forums and saw most people typically go slower then what I was using and use higher ppi.
This one is 100% power, 14 speed, 660ppi and I still get wipe off
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g237/jbrown2252/IMG_20170121_202124_zpsnh4oxr1u.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/jbrown2252/media/IMG_20170121_202124_zpsnh4oxr1u.jpg.html)

Is this something that can happen if I'm applying to much cermark?

Mayo Pardo
01-22-2017, 1:57 AM
First let me say I have not done these mugs yet so I can't comment on your settings, however I wanted to mention something about your cleaning prep...
You mentioned Isopropyl alcohol. This has less cleaning ability than Denatured alcohol. I would try Denatured alcohol on another spot, and see if that helps any. Also after cleaning avoid any finger/skin contact with the stainless steel in areas that will be cermarked and engraved. Also make sure the spray can is well mixed?
Just covering the basics here...

Gary Hair
01-22-2017, 8:44 AM
Do a search here and you'll find many threads that say the same thing about Cermark and how to get the best marks. It all comes down to preparation, application, and power/speed/dpi.

Makrel Johnson
01-22-2017, 10:26 AM
Unless you have a 50W or better machine, you need to be @ 10 speed and 100 power. (and 300 or better resolution) Even @ 10 power the cermark will blacken like it's workign but wash off completely clean.

When I apply Cermark by airbrus,h its a thin, even coat that is just a hair's width on this side of opaque. Doing this, I can't remove it. Period. I've sanded for ages and the mark is deep i the steel.

I de-grease with acetone, then DNA because Yetis are too expensive to screw up.

-Mak

Scott Shepherd
01-22-2017, 11:00 AM
On our 45W ULS laser, using the rotary, we engrave them at 100% power, 30% speed, 1000 PPI, and Image Density of 5. It won't come off at all. Trust me, I've tried ;) Make sure your PPI is at 1000. If you are at 30W, you probably do need to be between 10-20% on the speed. A 2% change in speed can make the difference in sticking or not sticking, so you have to dial it in very well. Start with 15%, 100% power, PPI 1000, Image Density of 5 and see how that works and go up or down by 2% on speed from there.

Kev Williams
01-22-2017, 12:34 PM
Suggesting speed numbers for someone to try is totally moot because every machine, even identical machines, are different.

That said, this much is true: If Cermark isn't sticking, you're going too fast. Won't suggest a number, just keep going slower...

And THAT said, in looking at your pictures and the marks I'm seeing, I'm inclined to think you're running these in halftone or error diffusion? If that's true, this is most likely your problem. ULS (and some others) do a great job with halftone engraving, but how it works is by reduciing the power on the fly to create the lighter areas. This simply doesn't work with Cermark, because the reduced-power areas won't fuse.. You can only get good Cermark results by running in black/white mode where the laser power never varies.

If you ARE running a photo in halftone, you'll need to create a 2-color bitmap and run the machine in black/white.

If you're already running in black/white, my only other suggestion in addition to slower speed would be to up the X-axis dots per inch resolution...

Keith Downing
01-22-2017, 2:19 PM
Only think I can think of other than the previous suggestions of: clean the surface, apply cermark correctly, and laser at the proper speed/power ratio is .... focus.

Sometimes it's easy to forget to make sure the cup surface is level across all areas you plan to engrave; and to make sure you focus after everything is all set.

Other than that, I'll just repeat what the others have said. If you are doing things properly cermark will not wipe off a Yeti or RTIC style cup.

Ross Moshinsky
01-22-2017, 4:14 PM
Spray (assuming the rattle can) means it goes on thick. This means you need to slow it down quite a bit. Foam brush or airbrush allow for a thinner application. This actually results in a better mark and better yield.

Jeremy Brown
01-22-2017, 7:09 PM
First off, thank you everyone for all the help, I honestly didn't think it would be this difficult to do things with cermark. I'm lasering a new one right now, its looking like a at least an hour and half to complete the engraving. Here are the steps I did this time.

Used rubber gloves the entire time.
-cleaned with lacquer thinner
-cleaned again with denatured alcohol
-shaked the cermark can for a solid minute
-sprayed the lightest coat I could (unlike before I didn't have any runs)
-Let it dry for a good 15 minutes
-Although my other attempts were using 1 bit black and white files, I turned the driver to black and white only.
-Power: 100
-Speed: 4
-PPI: 1000
-image density: 6

chris szlachetka
01-22-2017, 7:40 PM
I would double check your artwork and make sure everything is solid black all the way thru. I'd also make sure the alignment is perfect from the L to the R. Last, check your can's serial# with the place of purchase, we had a bad batch from Laserbits/Cermark that wasn't bonding to the surface very similar to your finish.

Bill George
01-22-2017, 7:55 PM
Frankly instead of practicing on a $35 mug find a sheet metal shop or other source of Stainless steel scrap and practice on that. If you go to right shop with a box of donuts in the morning they might let you have the shear or saw drops for free.

Scott Shepherd
01-22-2017, 7:59 PM
First off, thank you everyone for all the help, I honestly didn't think it would be this difficult to do things with cermark. I'm lasering a new one right now, its looking like a at least an hour and half to complete the engraving. Here are the steps I did this time.

Used rubber gloves the entire time.
-cleaned with lacquer thinner
-cleaned again with denatured alcohol
-shaked the cermark can for a solid minute
-sprayed the lightest coat I could (unlike before I didn't have any runs)
-Let it dry for a good 15 minutes
-Although my other attempts were using 1 bit black and white files, I turned the driver to black and white only.
-Power: 100
-Speed: 4
-PPI: 1000
-image density: 6

Where did you come up with the 4% speed number? That's painfully slow. 90 minutes run time? I hope you aren't selling them! No need to engrave for 90 minutes. Do a 1/4" square with the settings. Adjust, do again, until you find the fastest possible setting where it sticks. Once you have that, you can engrave the whole image. 4% seems way too slow.

Kev Williams
01-22-2017, 8:15 PM
First off, thank you everyone for all the help, I honestly didn't think it would be this difficult to do things with cermark. I'm lasering a new one right now, its looking like a at least an hour and half to complete the engraving. Here are the steps I did this time.

Used rubber gloves the entire time.
-cleaned with lacquer thinner
-cleaned again with denatured alcohol
-shaked the cermark can for a solid minute
-sprayed the lightest coat I could (unlike before I didn't have any runs)
-Let it dry for a good 15 minutes
-Although my other attempts were using 1 bit black and white files, I turned the driver to black and white only.
-Power: 100
-Speed: 4
-PPI: 1000
-image density: 6
I highlighted the part where you 'turned the driver to black and white only'. I'm hoping that will help, I'm assuming then it WAS in halftone mode...

As to your settings, 6 (max) density, if you're driver is like mine, is twice the lines per inch than 5 density, which means double the engraving time of 5...

My old 25w ULS- 1997 machine- had a very narrow Cermark sweet-spot. It liked 100 power, 22 speed (22% of slow is pretty slow ;) ), 5 on the density, and 800 on the PPI.
This SS plate (one of 100+) was engraved at exactly these settings... there's no reason your machine can't get the same crisp, consistent results :)
352400

Jeremy Brown
01-23-2017, 5:14 AM
Frankly instead of practicing on a $35 mug find a sheet metal shop or other source of Stainless steel scrap and practice on that. If you go to right shop with a box of donuts in the morning they might let you have the shear or saw drops for free.


I've learned that lesson the hard way. I did go out and buy 2 cheap yeti knock offs from walmart for 9.75 a piece but I will get me some scrap...thats a good idea



Where did you come up with the 4% speed number? That's painfully slow. 90 minutes run time? I hope you aren't selling them! No need to engrave for 90 minutes. Do a 1/4" square with the settings. Adjust, do again, until you find the fastest possible setting where it sticks. Once you have that, you can engrave the whole image. 4% seems way too slow.


Actually it was 3 hour and 31 minutes to run. After wasting a cup before, I wanted to make sure it would work. I knew it was overkill but I needed to know if I could do it.
This did give me some data
-I know know my coverage before was just to much
-I know that its not practical to do things this slow
-I did a basic clip art on 1 side and a very fine detail on the other. I now know that fine detail is lost at those speeds and density
-I also was concerned that the slight slope of the cup might make a difference due to the ULS rotary can not adjust for that and it didn't seem to affect it


My next trail will be smaller squares with different setting to find my machine sweet spot


I highlighted the part where you 'turned the driver to black and white only'. I'm hoping that will help, I'm assuming then it WAS in halftone mode...

As to your settings, 6 (max) density, if you're driver is like mine, is twice the lines per inch than 5 density, which means double the engraving time of 5...

My old 25w ULS- 1997 machine- had a very narrow Cermark sweet-spot. It liked 100 power, 22 speed (22% of slow is pretty slow ;) ), 5 on the density, and 800 on the PPI.
This SS plate (one of 100+) was engraved at exactly these settings... there's no reason your machine can't get the same crisp, consistent results :)
352400

Yeah, I wanted to go for broke and I followed your instructions and upped the density but I didn't realize how much it affected it time wise. my next will be just tring small squares with different setting to find my sweet spot

Mike Null
01-23-2017, 6:58 AM
Look around your shop. Surely you have some tools you could mark with your name or initials for practice. In 1997 I had a new 25 watt ULS machine and was able to do Cermark items with about the same settings Kev mentioned.

Jeremy Brown
01-23-2017, 7:40 AM
The more I think about it, I think my problem before was applying cermark on to thick. I was getting runs in the cermark.

I did get some scrap pieces of stainless at work today. Although they are not brush finished, like the cups are it should get me in the ball park.

Do you guys agree with that, as far as the finish?

Scott Shepherd
01-23-2017, 8:02 AM
Get out the sand paper, you've got a couple of bad cups. Sand them off and start your trials on them.

Bill George
01-23-2017, 9:56 AM
If you have a sloped cup prop up one end of the rotary until its all level otherwise it will engrave one side hotter than the other.

Makrel Johnson
01-23-2017, 10:09 AM
Kev was right about suggesting speeds - I got it in my mind you had an Epi for some reason. I use 10-15 because it works best with my machine and Cermark (don't ask me about the stuff for ceramic or glass, tho :mad:)

You're doing what you need to be doing with this stuff: realizing you made a mistake, learning from it and getting better. You can't ask for more than that.

I am curious about your 3 hour run time, though. @ 10s/100p/600dpi on my rotary, I can knock out a 5x5 image on a mug in 12 -15 minutes...

Neville Stewart
01-23-2017, 10:14 AM
The more I think about it, I think my problem before was applying cermark on to thick. I was getting runs in the cermark.

I did get some scrap pieces of stainless at work today. Although they are not brush finished, like the cups are it should get me in the ball park.

Do you guys agree with that, as far as the finish?

On top of all the other great advice youve received, I would say a thick coat is definitely adding to your problems. I assisted someone when her laser went down at Xmas, and she was spraying them with an aerosol assist system. It was as thick as latex paint. She said it would take her 30 mins to do one, whereas I get annoyed if its over 3 minutes.

Kev Williams
01-23-2017, 12:06 PM
Look around your shop. Surely you have some tools you could mark with your name or initials for practice. In 1997 I had a new 25 watt ULS machine and was able to do Cermark items with about the same settings Kev mentioned.
Everyone's house is LOADED with test subjects-- every kitchen knife, butter knife, fork and spoon is just BEGGING to be lasered! :D
(just be sure to get your signficant other's permission) ;)

Gary Hair
01-23-2017, 12:47 PM
(just be sure to get your signficant other's permission) ;)

I live by "forgiveness vs permission"

Jacob Meged
01-23-2017, 2:09 PM
I have a 35 watt machine and the settings I use are: 100% Power, 20% Speed, 500PPI, Image Density of 5. I don't use the spray, I use the Paste and dilute it with denatured alcohol. 1 Part Paste, 2 Parts Alcohol. I just brush it on with a foam brush. I also use Metal Sheets from Home Depot that I practice on. I believe it's the Zinc Plated Steel, but it's been a while since I last purchased it.

John Kleiber
01-23-2017, 2:56 PM
Using a 60 watt laser, marking a Stainless cup with Cermark yields nice results with the following RDWorks Settings Min 60, Max 60, Spd 300, Int .07
I usually buy scrap stainless and have it cut to 6" or 12" squares. Works great for testing and customer proofs.
Once you get down to testing with the rotary, you can use cheap Walmart or dollar store stainless cups.

Jeremy Brown
01-24-2017, 8:11 PM
Hey guys, I got a piece of stainless from work and decided to do a coupon test

I did a test consisting below
speeds: 30, 25, 20, 15, 10
PPI: 1000, 800, 700, 600
imagine density 4 (even though some of them says 5int)

Note, the more and more I lasered the panel I was getting a slight smile in the panel, so each side was going slightly out of focus. the 20 speed, 1000 ppi looks slightly worse than the 800ppi right beside it. I'm going to chalk it up to the panel warping.

It appears 20% speed; 700, 800 & 1000ppi give me pretty good results, this seems to the least amount on the surface height. the black has a slight tone shift
15 and 10% seem to be the same as looks go and they have a surface height to them, the black color is even and dark.

I did a thorough cleaning and used a dry dish towel to really scrub on it

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g237/jbrown2252/IMG_20170124_191514_zpskxnavwws.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/jbrown2252/media/IMG_20170124_191514_zpskxnavwws.jpg.html)

Gary Hair
01-24-2017, 8:36 PM
In order for your testing to be usable you need to figure out a way to keep it from warping. Focus will affect the mark as much as power and speed. After you figure that out then you should use a gray scotchbrite pad to really scrub the surface. Anything that sticks is guaranteed to stay stuck! One easy way to avoid warping is to mark a smaller patch, 1/4" is more than enough to see if it is sticking.

Scott Shepherd
01-25-2017, 8:04 AM
Good job on the testing! Based on the photo alone, I'd probably be at 1000ppi and a speed of about 17-18%. From the photo, the 15 looks the best as far as a uniform spot, and I think you can probably bump it up a little from there, so I'm coming in around 17 or so. I'd always do 1000ppi on that. It doesn't add any time to the job and the higher the ppi, the better with Cermark, so I'd stay with 1000ppi. You didn't say what the Image Density was, but 5 works fine, on the rotary, you might be able to get away with 4, depending on the design.

Looks like you are on you way to solving the problem. Good job for that.

Jeremy Brown
01-25-2017, 10:06 AM
Good job on the testing! Based on the photo alone, I'd probably be at 1000ppi and a speed of about 17-18%. From the photo, the 15 looks the best as far as a uniform spot, and I think you can probably bump it up a little from there, so I'm coming in around 17 or so. I'd always do 1000ppi on that. It doesn't add any time to the job and the higher the ppi, the better with Cermark, so I'd stay with 1000ppi. You didn't say what the Image Density was, but 5 works fine, on the rotary, you might be able to get away with 4, depending on the design.

Looks like you are on you way to solving the problem. Good job for that.

yes, it feels good to get this far. The imagine density was set at 4, I wanted to start low and work my way up if needed. I may still do another sample group with less varition in setting but try imagine density of 5 then do a time study to see what gives me the best results in the least amount of time.

Neville Stewart
01-25-2017, 10:24 AM
What does Image Density relate to? Not sure Ive seen that in Coreldraw.

Mike Null
01-25-2017, 12:15 PM
Neville

I believe image density is a ULS term that deals with dpi settings..

Kev Williams
01-25-2017, 12:36 PM
What Neville said :) -- to which I'll add my http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/2cents.gif -- it's a completely ridiculous way to set the Y-axis lines-per-inch settings. I used to have the ULS driver before they came out with that, and it was great, because you knew what you were getting. You could dial in exactly what you wanted. After my rep upgraded my machines firmware and added the new driver (which meant I could never go back to the old driver), all that went away, and to this day I don't know what the settings are. The numbers that show up on the LCD screen are bogus...

Screenshots of the ULS driver, 'image density' is on right-
in this pic I have it maxed at 6. note the "A" is black, and "throughput" is just lines...
352540

here I've changed density to 3. Note the A is now 'slashes', which indicates less lines per inch.
note the throughput is now half red...
352541

So-- can anyone tell me what "throughput" is and why it even matters? And more importantly, what are the actual Y-axis lines per inch each density numbers produces? The ONLY thing I know is the higher the number, the better the engraving, and the longer it takes. Still seems a bit vague...
Also notice the bottom slider, which still allows you to adjust X-axis dots per inch the laser fires in 10-dot increments. The old driver let you do this for the Y axis? With this driver, the choices are extremely minimal. Very frustrating when trying to balance good results with engraving speed....

Sorry for the rant, but the ID slider has been a peeve of mine for 8 years now.

Delbert Rippetoe
01-25-2017, 1:33 PM
My last engraver was a 35W epilog and I ran to run 5 speed and 100 power to get it to stick.