Hesitate to ask a sharpening question

[David Sloan]

I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.

[Stanley Covington]

I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.

The performance of planes and chisels and other woodworking tools is so improved by sharp blades, and it is so satisfying to produce those sharp edges, that it is very easy to get carried away and spend inordinate amounts of time and money on stones and sharpening. Nothing wrong with that if you have the time and money and enjoy the process. But there are indeed points of diminishing returns in terms of both time and money, as I think your question implies.

Everyone will have different opinions, so I can only give you mine. My opinion is based on using mostly Japanese waterstones for many years, both the synthetic variety and the expensive natural finishing stones. My best finishing stone cost over US$500, so you can see I tend to get carried away. I admit it is not practical, but I don’t regret buying or using such stones.

If you want a cost effective, quickly produced, and superbly performing cutting edge, I believe #6,000 is more than good enough for striking chisels. Paring chisels and plane blades will benefit from some time on #8,000~#10,000 grit stones. The use of stones finer than this, while lots of fun, is not truly cost effective.

Stan

[Mike Henderson]

I agree with Stanley. I only go to 8000 and find my tools very adequately sharp. You do have to work both sides of the arris to the same grit - front and back.

Mike

[David Sloan]

Thanks Mike and Stanley, I think I'll wait a while before buying a $500 stone! That would buy a couple of very nice new planes. One thing that I believe helped me get sharper edges than ever before was doing the Charlesworth back bevel with the ruler. Thanks again.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy David and a belated welcome to the Creek.

My sharpening also ends with an 8K Norton. It produces a mirror like finish on wood and just for the fun of it allows me to make shavings thinner than a thousandth of an inch.

352224

Maybe a finer stone would allow for a thinner shaving if you have need of such. For most of my work, this is more than sufficient.

Considering that many get fine results with a hard arkansas stone and maybe a strop, for me it seems like the money could be spent in a better way.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

You might consider adding a strop. They're relatively cheap, and have some other benefits around ease of use. I realize that the choice of compound may affect whether this is appropriate after 8000. But for me, the bevel is certainly shinier off the strop, and it feels sharper to my finger, and it reduces the times I go to the stones.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I am a relatively recent convert to the strop. It sounds like Prashun lacks a microscope (as do I), so I cannot prove it either, but I think my edges are noticeably better with a few swipes on leather.

[Warren Mickley]

The important thing in sharpening is how well you can discern the effects of small changes in technique or equipment. It will do little good to get a finer stone if you are currently in a situation where you can not notice just how good a job you are doing, like whether there is improvement from taking a few extra passes with you fine stone or a drop off in quality with a few less passes, either on the bevel or the back. If you currently see little difference between stopping at your finest stone or stopping at the previous stone, a finer stone might be a waste. If you notice a big difference between 5000 and 8000 it is more likely that a new stone would be beneficial.

Can you notice when you have not eliminated the wear on the back of the tool? Can you notice (by the tool's performance) if you did not spend enough time on an intermediate stone? Can you notice (by performance) if the burr was eliminated? These things could easily have a bigger effect than finer grit.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Ladies & gentlemen, are your seat-belts fastened? Might be a little turbulence ahead.

Mr. Newman should be along shortly with the popcorn.

[paul cottingham]

Well, I disagree with everything said above.

I kid, I kid.

I, too, am grabbing popcorn, and settling in.

[Phil Mueller]

David, I've asked myself the same question for some time. I appreciate the input so far.

Right or wrong, I work through Xfine diamond, then up to 2500 grit wet/dry, then a strop. Personally, I'm more concerned with the finishing planes. I'd like to get to a point where sandpaper is the infrequent exception. Getting there is likely technique/set up, as much as it is sharpening.

For example, here's a piece of rock maple I'm working on. It needs more work (you can clearly see some dull spots), but am fairly happy with the sheen I'm starting to get. I really don't know if a higher grit sharpening stone will produce better results, or if I just need to keep working my set up/technique. Will be interested in reading what others have to say.

352243

[Stewie Simpson]

Up to 12000 grit on natural stones suits the type of steel I like to work with. Measuring the shaving thickness is a complete waste of time imo. Your eye sight alone will tell you what you need to know.

[Dave Zellers]

Having just entered this world, I'm loving these conversations.

It should never be a problem that people with experience disagree. Nobody has all the answers.

But some people have more answers than others. :D

[William Fretwell]

When I was 10, I used an 'India' stone and a piece of thick rubber fixed to wood as a strop, things did get sharper despite minimal understanding. As you progress through, fine India, Arkansas, water stones, diamond plates etc. you do wish you had spent more on good stones sooner. You have to buy into the idea its worth it. I have a 4000x Japanese water stone that is a bit small, stutters and generally disappoints. You can get it to work but it's a pain. The 8k Norton I really like. At some point you are happy and stop. When you can have a good range of water stones & a double diamond plate for $400-$500 the natural 15k Japanese stone at $1000 does start to look silly. Leather strop is good and almost free! I tried the Belgian Coticle (5k) and wished I had not.
400, 1000, 8k & strop plus large double diamond plate (400/1200) is a good start.

[bridger berdel]

Well, I disagree with everything said above.

I kid, I kid.

I, too, am grabbing popcorn, and settling in.



Not me. I've discovered that there is someone on the internet who is wrong, and I'll not rest until they have been set aright.

[Brian Holcombe]

David, I've asked myself the same question for some time. I appreciate the input so far.

Right or wrong, I work through Xfine diamond, then up to 2500 grit wet/dry, then a strop. Personally, I'm more concerned with the finishing planes. I'd like to get to a point where sandpaper is the infrequent exception. Getting there is likely technique/set up, as much as it is sharpening.

For example, here's a piece of rock maple I'm working on. It needs more work (you can clearly see some dull spots), but am fairly happy with the sheen I'm starting to get. I really don't know if a higher grit sharpening stone will produce better results, or if I just need to keep working my set up/technique. Will be interested in reading what others have to say.

352243

Phil that is looking pretty good. Look for shavings that go straight up or back toward you, not shavings that curl up. Outside of that, if there is no tearout then you are just seeing the grain runout on the surface and it will not shine as brightly as the radial grain.

[Dave Zellers]

Look for shavings that go straight up or back toward you, not shavings that curl up.

I've seen this in the Japanese competitions on the tube. Is there an explanation as to why that is better? I ask coyly...

It reminded me of this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJHrSmZQx10

[Phil Mueller]

Ah yes, thank you Brian, I now remember that from your video. And appreciate the grain input. Might have planed this down to nothing...for nothing :rolleyes:

[Stanley Covington]

The important thing in sharpening is how well you can discern the effects of small changes in technique or equipment. It will do little good to get a finer stone if you are currently in a situation where you can not notice just how good a job you are doing, like whether there is improvement from taking a few extra passes with you fine stone or a drop off in quality with a few less passes, either on the bevel or the back. If you currently see little difference between stopping at your finest stone or stopping at the previous stone, a finer stone might be a waste. If you notice a big difference between 5000 and 8000 it is more likely that a new stone would be beneficial.

Can you notice when you have not eliminated the wear on the back of the tool? Can you notice (by the tool's performance) if you did not spend enough time on an intermediate stone? Can you notice (by performance) if the burr was eliminated? These things could easily have a bigger effect than finer grit.

Truer words were never spoken on the subject.

[Stewie Simpson]

For some, there is a noticeable improvement in working the burr loose by taking that extra step above 8000 grit.

Like all things associated with developing your own sharpening technique, its what works for you that matters most . No one should feel any pressure to adopt the techniques of others. That includes the type of sharpening stones you feel comfortable with, the type of steel that works for you, and the circa of tools that gives you the required results.

Stewie;

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks Mike and Stanley, I think I'll wait a while before buying a $500 stone! That would buy a couple of very nice new planes. One thing that I believe helped me get sharper edges than ever before was doing the Charlesworth back bevel with the ruler. Thanks again.

David:

Let me add one comment. This "ruler trick" has been debated ad nauseam, ab absurdo. I don't want to start up the debate again. But since you are relatively new at this, and since you are asking for advice, let me give you some more. it will be worth every penny you pay for it.

I urge you to not blindly follow my advice just because I tell you to, or because I make a convincing argument, but because you thoroughly understand what sharpening is, and have really thought through the long-term benefits of using the ruler trick or not.

The ruler trick works. Please figure out why it works. Make some drawings and analyze the long-term effects of using the ruler trick.

It is not a good long-term methodology for a couple of reasons. The first is that it is a crutch that will prevent you from learning how to sharpen freehand. The same goes for sharpening jigs. This is not a good way to develop the most basic woodworking skill.

The second reason is that, while sharpening jigs reliably produce a nice, flat, very useful bevel that can then be worked freehand with no problems, the ruler trick creates a bevel on the back/flat of the blade that can only be properly re-sharpened using the ruler trick. Therefore, you must rely on the ruler trick always. Not tragic, but less than ideal.

So, when you use the ruler trick, the blade's back is messed up, and you do not develop the skills necessary to sharpen the blade's back without using the ruler trick.

Of course, the ruler trick is not a good idea for chisels.

Learn how to sharpen like a craftsman.

Stan

[Stewie Simpson]

excellent advice by Stanley.

Stewie;

[David Sloan]

Thanks everyone for the helpful information. I had made a strop but hadn't used it in years. I do have the Veritas green compound so I plan to resume stropping. I have had to flatten a lot of cherry panels recently and it is truly a delight to use a plane with a sharp blade. For me what I never appreciated before was to carefully examine the blade after each step. I found myself going back to a lower grit til I got it right. Now I'll hone with the strop after the 8K stone.

[Stewie Simpson]

What needs to be understood is that the principal behind working to those higher grits of honing stone, is to wear away that fine line of metal that holds the burr in place. By stopping too soon on those higher grits of honing stone, there is increased likelihood you will tear the burr off prematurely, as you move onto the leather strop. Premature removal of the burr will likely result in microscopic damage to the blades cutting edge.

Work on the strop should be brief, with little more that 1 or 2 passes on each side of the blade. Over strop, then you risk rounding over the cutting edge due to the inherent give within the leather surface.

Maintaining a flat surface on your stones should never be underrated if your primary goal is to improve your sharpening technique. imo.

Stewie;

[Brian Holcombe]

I've seen this in the Japanese competitions on the tube. Is there an explanation as to why that is better? I ask coyly...

It reminded me of this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJHrSmZQx10


The goal is to see an upright shaving, or shaving going back over the blade because it indicates that the shaving structure is broken, the chip breaker is working effectively. You should still inspect the surface for defects, but the shaving direction is one indicator that you're on the right track.

[David Sloan]

Appreciate the comment about the ruler trick and it does make sense. I did know never to do that to a chisel. Also helpful to know not to overdo the stropping. Even though I have been woodworking and woodturning for a long time, I am amazed at how much I have yet to learn!

[Derek Cohen]

I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.

David, 8k is a very respectable grit level. If it is not working for you, then you must question whether your sharpening technique is optimal. That opens up other avenues. If, on the other hand, you wish to explore whether there is a benefit in a higher grit, the I would use green compound on hardwood (which is my preference as a strop). This is the cheapest, effective method for working in the high grit range.

There is no such rule that says you should not work on a strop for as long as a stone. A strop with compound, such as the Lee Valley green crayon, is effectively just a high grit sharpening medium. All that counts is that the media removes the wire. For example, one may go from 15 micron to 1 micron quite safely.

In theory, a higher grit will create a smoother edge, which should last longer. Many other factors come into play, such as the abrasiveness of the wood you work, as well as you technique with handtools (are you heavy handed?).

Just suck it and see. At this point you will discover whether it is technique or tool that needs further work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

Stanley,

The back of a plane blade is not messed up by the ruler trick.

There are no long term problems which I have encountered in 30 years.

The benefits continue.

I guess you don't use it, so probably don't know much about it?

best wishes,
David

[William Fretwell]

I have come to believe that does happen above 8k but I have yet to take that expensive step. The only plus is the stone need not be that large and will last a long time.

[Mike Henderson]

As I understand it, the ruler trick produces a "microbevel" on the back of the blade - small, perhaps not more than 1mm in width. If you were to wish to remove that microbevel, it seems that all you'd have to do is grind the blade back by 1mm and you'd remove it.

It also seems that using the rear microbevel could mean that you wouldn't have to remove as much material from the blade to remove the rounded portion of a dull blade (when sharpening).

Mike

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I sharpen knives for high-end chefs and use Chosera and sometimes Shapton and usually I go to 5k or 10k depending on the quality of the knife they give me. (I'm the only local person that can properly sharpen a single-bevel Japanese knife, and for those I may go as far as 15k because they are usually very special knives with picky owners.) Just mentioning this to say that when I gifted my father-in-law a set of waterstones to start with, I gave him a set of Nortons. They are a great deal for the money, and I knew he would never get beyond that basic set. Their 8k is extremely soft, but it leaves a nice finish. You are fine stopping with that.

I personally do see some difference when I go to 15k, but it's a very minor difference, and to be honest, I usually only do that on smoothers that I am using on difficult woods, or chisels for paring. - add to that- sometimes just because I like to play around with sharpening stuff as sharp as I can, so I may sharpen something more than it really needs just because I'm a sick individual who LIKES to sharpen stuff! :-)

If you send me an iron, I will sharpen it to 15k for you, and you can see how much difference it makes for you. PM me for my address. I'll even pay postage on my end- you pay postage to send to me. Why would I do this? Because I believe we should use our talents and pass them on, and I like helping others with sharpening questions. Knowledge not shared is lost!

[William Fretwell]

Theoretically if the 'ruler trick' micro bevel is so small it is removed by sharpening the main bevel each time you could claim it works.
As the angle is so small the bevel gets long very quickly on a stone. It might work with a flat leather strop where the blade is flat to the leather and the pressure curves the leather very slightly at the blade edge as you pull backwards.

The most obvious shortcoming is caused by a stone not being totally flat. When you sharpen the main bevel the edge created will gain some variation from the stone's imperfections. Adding a second bevel will only increase those variations at the edge. It also forms a burr on the main bevel. Pushing the burr ('the wire') back and forth is less than satisfactory, you are left trying to balance it in the middle. It will of course wiggle from side to side due to the stones imperfections. Dealing with one bevel intersecting a plane surface has to give a straighter edge.

This ultimate flat surface is hard to obtain, in the case of a 'poor' flat surface the false 'flat' surface of a secondary bevel may indeed be better hence giving a seemingly better edge, imperfections included.

So it seems to me that very good traditional technique should be capable of giving the better edge, but the ruler shortcut may work better for some.

The ruler shortcut commits a blade to that method, recovery is a lot of work. In a school workshop sticking to the traditional method makes sense.

I agree that working on your technique first is crucial. Sharpen, walk away then later be very critical. This is how I sharpen a knife. Start again from scratch. After 8 years my main camp knife now has a great convex edge I can no longer improve. The D2 steel was not the limiting factor, I was.

[Pat Barry]

I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.
Yes, absolutely, all things being equal, higher grits can yield higher degrees of sharpness. If you have mastered 8K, then kick it up a notch to 12k.

[Patrick Chase]

Not me. I've discovered that there is someone on the internet who is wrong, and I'll not rest until they have been set aright.

https://xkcd.com/386/

[Patrick Chase]

The back of a plane blade is not messed up by the ruler trick.

I am always stunned and bemused when folks inveigh against the ruler trick and then turn around and suggest *stropping* the blade back.

The reason is of course that both involve exactly the same tradeoff: They both sacrifice flatness (whether due to the compliance of the strop material or by intentionally "tipping" the blade with a shim) in order to achieve better polish at the leading edge. They both work, and they can both cause problems if taken too far.

The wood doesn't care whether you do it the "traditional way" or the "new way".

[Patrick Chase]

I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.

I mostly fall into the "diminishing returns" camp, with one important caveat: There are multiple systems and specifications governing grit number (6K, 10K, etc), so any one individual's experience of where diminishing returns start may not be relevant to anybody else.

The usual way around that issue is to speak in terms of abrasive particle size (measured in microns) instead of grit. Here are some examples to demonstrate why grit is problematic, using "8000 grit" stones:



Jim Koepke's #8000 Norton water stone uses 3 um abrasive particles
Naniwa's #8000 "Snow White" stone uses 2 um particles IIRC
Shapton's #8000 Pro stone uses 1.74 um particles
Imanishi and Sigma Power #8000 stones use ~1.2 um particles. This is also what the latest JIS spec for rating grit calls out.


As you can see there's a 2.5:1 range of particle sizes represented in just this small selection of identically-rated stones.

I personally think "diminishing returns" start somewhere above 1.2 um, which is #8000 in the Sigma and Imanishi systems. I personally won't pay more than $90 (the price for the Sigma #13000, which has 0.74 um abrasive particles) for a synthetic waterstone.

Interestingly enough, the manufacturers who charge hundreds of dollars for their top-of-the-line polishing stones happen to be two of the biggest scofflaws for "grit-rating inflation"...

[Dave Zellers]

I am always stunned and bemused when folks inveigh against the ruler trick and then turn around and suggest *stropping* the blade back.

The reason is of course that both involve exactly the same tradeoff: They both sacrifice flatness (whether due to the compliance of the strop material or by intentionally "tipping" the blade with a shim) in order to achieve better polish at the leading edge. They both work, and they can both cause problems if taken too far.

The wood doesn't care whether you do it the "traditional way" or the "new way".
Thanks for posting that because I've been scratching my head over exactly that thought.

Is 4-5 swipes with the ruler method on a 10-12K stone that much different from a dozen strops with green compound?

I'm totally new to this level of sharpening, and only now getting decent results but it does seem like stropping the back on compound at an angle much higher that the ruler method, would alter the geometry of the back much the same as the ruler method itself.

[Dave Zellers]

I've got it!

The obvious answer is ruler stropping!

[Jim Koepke]

Jim Koepke's #8000 Norton water stone uses 3 um abrasive particles

This is interesting and agrees with the specifications in the (current) Norton 2015 catalog:

http://www.nortonabrasives.com/sites/sga.na.com/files/document/Catalog-NortonIndustrial-7362-2015-Bookmarked.pdf#page=52

What is strange is a chart from 2007 puts the Norton 8000 water stone at 1.2µ particle size.

The question is was the 2007 chart in error or has Norton changed their stone? (error more likely?)

There is lust in my heart for a finer stone, just because. There are also moths in my wallet when it comes to spending that kind of money for an increase in sharpness that would be hard to justify since my edges can perform quite well with my current sharpening equipment. Maybe if an urge to get my straight razor in shaving shape came over me, one of these would be advantageous. How can that be explained to SWMBO in such a way as she will be the one to suggest it is worth the money?

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

I am always stunned and bemused when folks inveigh against the ruler trick and then turn around and suggest *stropping* the blade back.

The reason is of course that both involve exactly the same tradeoff: They both sacrifice flatness (whether due to the compliance of the strop material or by intentionally "tipping" the blade with a shim) in order to achieve better polish at the leading edge. They both work, and they can both cause problems if taken too far.

The wood doesn't care whether you do it the "traditional way" or the "new way".

Patrick; you may wish to refer to the comments within my post. (a non user of Ruler Trick.)

regards Stewie;


What needs to be understood is that the principal behind working to those higher grits of honing stone, is to wear away that fine line of metal that holds the burr in place. By stopping too soon on those higher grits of honing stone, there is increased likelihood you will tear the burr off prematurely, as you move onto the leather strop. Premature removal of the burr will likely result in microscopic damage to the blades cutting edge.

Work on the strop should be brief, with little more that 1 or 2 passes on each side of the blade. Over strop, then you risk rounding over the cutting edge due to the inherent give within the leather surface.

Maintaining a flat surface on your stones should never be underrated if your primary goal is to improve your sharpening technique. imo.

Stewie;

[Pat Barry]

This is interesting and agrees with the specifications in the (current) Norton 2015 catalog:

http://www.nortonabrasives.com/sites/sga.na.com/files/document/Catalog-NortonIndustrial-7362-2015-Bookmarked.pdf#page=52

What is strange is a chart from 2007 puts the Norton 8000 water stone at 1.2µ particle size.

The question is was the 2007 chart in error or has Norton changed their stone? (error more likely?)

There is lust in my heart for a finer stone, just because. There are also moths in my wallet when it comes to spending that kind of money for an increase in sharpness that would be hard to justify since my edges can perform quite well with my current sharpening equipment. Maybe if an urge to get my straight razor in shaving shape came over me, one of these would be advantageous. How can that be explained to SWMBO in such a way as she will be the one to suggest it is worth the money?

jtk

Tell her that if money gets tight you can always sell it and get 50 cents on the dollar

[Stanley Covington]

There is lust in my heart for a finer stone, just because. There are also moths in my wallet when it comes to spending that kind of money for an increase in sharpness that would be hard to justify since my edges can perform quite well with my current sharpening equipment. Maybe if an urge to get my straight razor in shaving shape came over me, one of these would be advantageous. How can that be explained to SWMBO in such a way as she will be the one to suggest it is worth the money?

jtk

Do you sharpen her kitchen knives? It may be difficult to convince her to sign off on a $500 stone, but $150 might be seen as a reward to a good and faithful servant, especially if the money was used to make her job easier.

And then there is the sneaky approach. Save pennies away from her eagle eye. Buy the stone in time. Lose the receipt. Lose the new box. Treat it like you have owned it for years. Unless she is sharper than most non-woodworkers, she will not notice. Kinda like leaving the house to go to the gun range with an empty gun case, and returning home with it not so empty.

Stan

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; you may wish to refer to the comments within my post. (a non user of Ruler Trick.)

regards Stewie;

Fair enough.

I'd argue that that's conceptually very similar to what I do with the ruler trick: I use a thin shim to limit the angle to ~1/4 deg, and I limit the "tricked" portion of the blade to a couple/few tenths of a millimeter. The edge is therefore only recessed from the back by about a micron (0.3*tan(1/4)).

And that brings me back to my point: Both stropping and ruler-tricking involve tradeoffs between geometric deformation and polishing, and they can both be done in either minimalist ways that cause very little geometry change (as you do with stropping and I do with ruler-tricking) or more "enthusiastically".

[Patrick Chase]

I personally think "diminishing returns" start somewhere above 1.2 um, which is #8000 in the Sigma and Imanishi systems. I personally won't pay more than $90 (the price for the Sigma #13000, which has 0.74 um abrasive particles) for a synthetic waterstone.

Upon re-reading this I realized that it wasn't terribly clear in the above-quoted remark: I think that by 1.2 um we are already into diminishing returns for real-world uses where the objective is the finish quality of the wood (as opposed to, say, the thinnest possible shavings). I can detect differences in the edge itself and in hanging hair/thread tests from honing on finer abrasives, but it doesn't seem to translate to better finished surfaces in most situations.

I should also note that some abrasives are more "aggressive" than others, and that may shift the point of diminishing returns. I usually stop at ~1 um with AlOx/Alumina-ceramic waterstones, but I typically go to 0.5 um with diamond paste or lapping film because diamonds tends to leave sharper striations.

[Stewie Simpson]

Upon re-reading this I realized that it wasn't terribly clear in the above-quoted remark: I think that by 1.2 um we are already into diminishing returns for real-world uses where the objective is the finish quality of the wood (as opposed to, say, the thinnest possible shavings). I can detect differences in the edge itself and in hanging hair/thread tests from honing on finer abrasives, but it doesn't seem to translate to better finished surfaces in most situations.

I should also note that some abrasives are more "aggressive" than others, and that may shift the point of diminishing returns. I usually stop at ~1 um with AlOx/Alumina-ceramic waterstones, but I typically go to 0.5 um with diamond paste or lapping film because diamonds tends to leave sharper striations.

For the mother god , what's happened to the simple approach within woodworking.

[Patrick Chase]

For the mother god , what's happened to the simple approach within woodworking.

It was killed off by people who do things like obsessively searching for a "true" 0.5 um Chromium-Oxide paste as opposed to the adulterated stuff LV sells.

Face it, we're all too clever by half, with the possible exceptions of Warren and George. Even you.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Not many people know this, but in the atom bomb is a PMV-11 iron so well-sharpened that when the bomb hits the ground it splits an atom. Einstein used waterstones at 1,000,000 grit to achieve this. This photo shows Einstein calculating the bevel angle with and without the ruler trick. The bottom right calculation is believed to be the true grit of Lee Valley's green chromium oxide. Sadly, he died before finishing that part of the equation, and it seems we will never really know.

352289

[Jim Koepke]

Do you sharpen her kitchen knives? It may be difficult to convince her to sign off on a $500 stone, but $150 might be seen as a reward to a good and faithful servant, especially if the money was used to make her job easier.

And then there is the sneaky approach. Save pennies away from her eagle eye. Buy the stone in time. Lose the receipt. Lose the new box. Treat it like you have owned it for years. Unless she is sharper than most non-woodworkers, she will not notice. Kinda like leaving the house to go to the gun range with an empty gun case, and returning home with it not so empty.

Stan

She complained one time after sharpening our knive that they were too sharp. She has since changed to requesting a warning when they are sharpened. I tend to use knives more than she does. She used to use a serrated knife to make a mess out of tomatoes. Now it is usually my job to do the chopping of vegetables or slicing meat.

In a way my pennies have been stashed away saving for something. Just haven't quite figured out as of yet on what it is they will be spent. Shame on me, a bandsaw with 12"+ resaw ability would get my attention.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Sorry, I didn't notice this until now...


This is interesting and agrees with the specifications in the (current) Norton 2015 catalog:

http://www.nortonabrasives.com/sites/sga.na.com/files/document/Catalog-NortonIndustrial-7362-2015-Bookmarked.pdf#page=52

What is strange is a chart from 2007 puts the Norton 8000 water stone at 1.2µ particle size.

The question is was the 2007 chart in error or has Norton changed their stone? (error more likely?)

Every source I've seen (including pre-2007 ones) has that stone at 3 um.

Plenty of people get good results for woodworking with the Norton, so if it's working for you then I wouldn't worry about it. If you want to try a higher grit on a budget then one option might be the MetalMaster 10K resinoid mystery stone (http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/46), which leaves very nice edges and looks and feels suspiciously like the "Ohishi" 10K stone that L-N sells. The only caveat is that both the MetalMaster and Ohishi/L-N 10Ks are soft even by polisher standards, so you have to be a little careful if you use freehand "push" strokes.

One thing I didn't go into in my previous post was variability: The roughness of the edge is determined at least as much by the maximum abrasive particle size as by the average. It's possible that Norton has particularly good control over size distribution (they certainly meet tight distribution specs in their diamond pastes) in which case the nominal may look worse than the reality. Then again I suspect that Sigma, Shapton, Imanishi, and Naniwa also know a thing or two about distribution control, so I doubt Norton could be all *that* much better.

[paul cottingham]

Not many people know this, but in the atom bomb is a PMV-11 iron so well-sharpened that when the bomb hits the ground it splits an atom. Einstein used waterstones at 1,000,000 grit to achieve this. This photo shows Einstein calculating the bevel angle with and without the ruler trick. The bottom right calculation is believed to be the true grit of Lee Valley's green chromium oxide. Sadly, he died before finishing that part of the equation, and it seems we will never really know.

352289
:-)

Funny, cause I often say that you know a blade is sharp when you can hear the air popping from the atoms being split when you move it.

I'm the funniest guy I know. Try to hold your applause.

[Patrick Chase]

Not many people know this, but in the atom bomb is a PMV-11 iron so well-sharpened that when the bomb hits the ground it splits an atom. Einstein used waterstones at 1,000,000 grit to achieve this.

Funny, I heard he used a very early prototype Cho10K. That's why some crazy people are willing to spend almost $300 for a ~2 um stone.

(yes, I remember exactly what you had in your $10 high-end K-Mart water stone storage solution. I have a Snow White and think that the Naniwas perform a bit better than their nominal abrasive size suggests, so this is purely a cheap snarky shot on my part)

[Patrick Chase]

:-)

Funny, cause I often say that you know a blade is sharp when you can hear the air popping from the atoms being split when you move it.

I'm the funniest guy I know. Try to hold your applause.

Groan. It took me like 5 minutes to get from "air popping" to "hair popping". Must be getting old...

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Funny, I heard he used a very early prototype Cho10K. That's why some crazy people are willing to spend almost $300 for a ~2 um stone.

(yes, I remember exactly what you had in your $10 high-end K-Mart water stone storage solution. I have a Snow White and think that the Naniwas perform a bit better than their nominal abrasive size suggests, so this is purely a cheap snarky shot on my part)

In my defense, it was a "curiosity killed the cat" moment for me, and I only paid $200 on eBay. :-)

[Brian Holcombe]

I would enjoy seeing every sharpening thread strung together.

I fully admit that I am part of the problem!

[Stewie Simpson]

I would enjoy seeing every sharpening thread strung together.

I fully admit that I am part of the problem!

Not so Brian; a lot of what you mention can be best described as part of the solution within developing a consistent sharpening technique.

regards Stewie;

[William Fretwell]

Going back to the OP's question, which is a good one; deciding where to spend your money to reach the point of no return!
It would seem that when you can strop on leather or MDF or paper or the leg of your jeans rubbed with some green stuff at almost zero cost going over 8k is not an investment.
We poor simple folk may have to sharpen every 5 minutes instead of every 7. We need to decide if charging our strops should be done with flat side or edge in simple zig zags or figure 8. Do we use a hair dryer for added bonding?

I for one am relieved to have reached my point of no return. The money 'saved' on the 15k stone can be put to good use buying wood.

[Brian Holcombe]

Haha, part of the solution! I like that thought.

WRT stropping, during Kezuroukai it became apparent that stropping my blade was causing me a disservice and I ditched the approach. I like stropping for knives, and double bevel tools, or gouges.

Stropping is a double edged sword, on blades where you cannot quite get the wire edge off, or if you aren't quite removing the wire edge for some reason, it will be a dramatic improvement as the strop will no doubt remove the wire edge. If you are already removing the wire edge, then there is no improvement to be made and in my experience the quality of the cut slightly declined when stropping.

The best thing (IMO) you can do is learn to see an edge that continues to show wear, and learn to feel for a wire edge, or burr and to know when it is removed. You can use magnification for this, but the most practical approach is to train your hands to feel for the edge.

The number one culprit for retaining a wire edge is likely not grinding back far enough when refreshing the edge, remove the wear completely with your rough stones before progressing through the grit. I like to work the back very lightly after each grit on the bevel to ensure that I've removed edge, with each new grit it is reformed and removed again.

The result is a very long lasting edge, partially because it is without marks from the previous grit (coarseness) and partially because it is completely repaired of previous wear. A true fresh start, so to speak.

Once you have a basic regimen of sharpening stones, improvement of process or chasing ideal in process are going to create better and longer lasting edges than continuously purchasing additional stones.

[Tony Wilkins]

I have finished out on an 8k stone since I started - first King and now Suehiro dual-stone. I had a thought and just got a sheet of PSA backed diamond film at .5 micron for the few tools I want a sharper edge on. Haven't used it yet so can't say how long it might last.

[Patrick Chase]

I have finished out on an 8k stone since I started - first King and now Suehiro dual-stone. I had a thought and just got a sheet of PSA backed diamond film at .5 micron for the few tools I want a sharper edge on. Haven't used it yet so can't say how long it might last.

Assuming it's 3M 668X (which is very likely) it'll last quite some time if you take care of it. It's easy to gouge, though, so be careful with "push" strokes. Also make sure to remove any really big notches/burrs/etc on coarse/medium grits, as they can rip the coating on 0.5 um film. The coarser-grit films are more resilient, but I prefer a coarse cheap-ish waterstone
or diamond paste on 1018 steel plates for dealing with truly nasty burrs/gouges/etc.


Something that costs less than $1 per mm thickness, like a Bester 220 or Cerax 325. Nastily dinged-up tool steel will leave gouges in almost any sharpening medium, so you'd might as well use something cheap.

[paul cottingham]

Groan. It took me like 5 minutes to get from "air popping" to "hair popping". Must be getting old...

Funniest. Guy. I. Know.

At at least my mom always said so. :-)

[Prashun Patel]

Brian-
We've been through this in person before, and I still struggle to find the burr. I can easily raise, feel, and remove burrs at the very rough grits ( < 1000) when I am establishing the primary bevel. But as soon as I move up to the 1000 grit stone, and hone free hand, I can no longer feel a raised burr.

Last night, I hollow ground two chisels on the grinder. I honed 2ndary bevels at 1000, 5000, and 8000. With one, I free-handed. With the other, I used a guide. On both, I did as you counsel (do the bevel, work the back). I could not see nor feel a wire edge on either. I see the faintest glimmer of something under a loupe at the edge which I swear is just light. But I certainly can't feel it, and when I work the back a little, it doesn't appear to disappear. Both chisels feel sharp and appear to work well.

Is the wire edge raised on the finer grits, by hand, far more subtle than the one raised at the rough grits with power?

Do you other guys have trouble raising/feeling a burr with the finer grits?

Does anyone have a good close up picture of what a burr would look like after say 1000, 5000, and 8000?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Just FYI- I was serious in my first comment about offering to sharpen an iron to 15k for you if you want to see the difference.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Brian-
We've been through this in person before, and I still struggle to find the burr. I can easily raise, feel, and remove burrs at the very rough grits ( < 1000) when I am establishing the primary bevel. But as soon as I move up to the 1000 grit stone, and hone free hand, I can no longer feel a raised burr.

Last night, I hollow ground two chisels on the grinder. I honed 2ndary bevels at 1000, 5000, and 8000. With one, I free-handed. With the other, I used a guide. On both, I did as you counsel (do the bevel, work the back). I could not see nor feel a wire edge on either. I see the faintest glimmer of something under a loupe at the edge which I swear is just light. But I certainly can't feel it, and when I work the back a little, it doesn't appear to disappear. Both chisels feel sharp and appear to work well.

Is the wire edge raised on the finer grits, by hand, far more subtle than the one raised at the rough grits with power?

Do you other guys have trouble raising/feeling a burr with the finer grits?

Does anyone have a good close up picture of what a burr would look like after say 1000, 5000, and 8000?

If you are checking for a burr by running your finger off the edge on the back of the blade, that only seems to work well when the burr is pretty large, like you'd get off a course stone. On finer grits, I don't check for the burr directly but instead just check the keenness of the edge with my fingertips. With experience I know when it feels sharp- if it doesn't feel sharp then I either did not do enough work on the coarse/medium stones (i.e. did not create new edge), or there is a burr left. Light, alternating passes of the bevel, then the back, with edge leading strokes seem to be the most effective. Increasing the honing angle slightly for these burr removal passes is also very effective. After a bit of this I'll recheck with my fingertips and typically there is a substantial improvement in sharpness. If not then I probably didn't do enough work on the coarse/medium stone stones.

[William Fretwell]

At the finer grits it is not as clear cut as burr......burr gone. In my case it feels more like rough sharp then noticeably smooth sharper after working the back of the blade flat on the 8k stone. After stropping the bevel it feels sharper again. The edge will 'catch' more noticeably. After this discussion I will cease moving the back on the strop, even flat, and see how that goes.

The real test is during prolonged planing, does it last longer, are you 'polishing' the wood? When does polishing the wood change to cutting the wood. When cutting gets harder feel the blade again, the word sharp does not even enter your mind. I can just strop the bevel and it restores 'sharp'. That sharp is shorter lived but a very quick fix and worthwhile for hogging off. The next sharpening is a few strokes on the 800x then back to the 8k and a quick strop.

[Prashun Patel]

Robert, I have been doing all this time as you do. I just feel the tip of the blade. I can tell when my blade is ready. That is to say, I can tell when I've gotten my blade as good as *I* can normally get it. This is certainly serviceable, and I am not a sharpening geek; I only want my blade to do it's job as well as it can do.

However, when studying with Brian, I see that his blades really are slightly sharper than mine. It makes the experience of paring and planing trickier woods slightly more easier and predictable. He has been able to feel finer burrs where I cannot. Since working with him this summer, I take care to work the backs lightly after bevel honing, but I still feel that I'm removing a phantom burr. I don't sweat it 9x out of 10 because my blades work fine.

Even if the burr is an elusive Holy Grail, just the sheer chase of it has improved my technique. Strokes are more deliberate and fewer than even 6 months ago.

[Stewie Simpson]

I can only comment on my own experience with using earlier type steels. I have no problem feeling a very fine burr using my fingertips, after working the cutting edge to 12000 grit. The remaining burr is then removed with 2 strokes on each side of the cutting edge, using a loaded leather strop.

Stewie;

[Stanley Covington]

If you can't feel the burr passing over the ridges on your fingers, try a different method. This one is not as quick a testing method as the skin on your finger, but it is more reliable.

Rest the cutting edge at a low angle on your fingernail close to the quick. The angle should be such that the cutting edge, not the bevel, is riding on your nail. To test that you have the right angle, carefully and gently push the blade while increasing the angle until the blade just starts to dig in. Increase and decrease the angle until you have the lowest possible angle where the blade will dig into your fingernail.

Slowly and lighty pull the blade straight back over you fingernail towards your fingertip. If the sensation is absolutely smooth, there is probably not a burr. But if you feel a scraping or catching sensation, that is a sure sign of a burr or some other defect in the cutting edge.

If you discover a burr, next test the same spot on the blade with the finger on your skin, noting the sensation, to train yourself to feel the burr.

This is easy with small blades, but hard with larger plane blades. Please be careful and do this only when kids or pets are not in the shop to distract you.

Stan

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian-
We've been through this in person before, and I still struggle to find the burr. I can easily raise, feel, and remove burrs at the very rough grits ( < 1000) when I am establishing the primary bevel. But as soon as I move up to the 1000 grit stone, and hone free hand, I can no longer feel a raised burr.

Last night, I hollow ground two chisels on the grinder. I honed 2ndary bevels at 1000, 5000, and 8000. With one, I free-handed. With the other, I used a guide. On both, I did as you counsel (do the bevel, work the back). I could not see nor feel a wire edge on either. I see the faintest glimmer of something under a loupe at the edge which I swear is just light. But I certainly can't feel it, and when I work the back a little, it doesn't appear to disappear. Both chisels feel sharp and appear to work well.

Is the wire edge raised on the finer grits, by hand, far more subtle than the one raised at the rough grits with power?

Do you other guys have trouble raising/feeling a burr with the finer grits?

Does anyone have a good close up picture of what a burr would look like after say 1000, 5000, and 8000?

The hollow ground blade will be the easiest for this. Go through your regular routine of sharpening, then when you are completed, return back to the finish stone. Work the bevel and before you work the back check for a burr (it is very very light as this point). That should help to improve your thumb gauge for checking since you will know it is there with certainty. Work the back again and see if you can feel the burr.

If you're seeing light reflecting from the edge, then there is still some wear left. When its totally gone you can't see the edge at all.

I'll take some photos next time I sharpen and see if I can highlight the wear, it may be quite difficult to do with an iPhone but it is surprisingly capable on occasion.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Robert, I have been doing all this time as you do. I just feel the tip of the blade. I can tell when my blade is ready. That is to say, I can tell when I've gotten my blade as good as *I* can normally get it. This is certainly serviceable, and I am not a sharpening geek; I only want my blade to do it's job as well as it can do.

However, when studying with Brian, I see that his blades really are slightly sharper than mine. It makes the experience of paring and planing trickier woods slightly more easier and predictable. He has been able to feel finer burrs where I cannot. Since working with him this summer, I take care to work the backs lightly after bevel honing, but I still feel that I'm removing a phantom burr. I don't sweat it 9x out of 10 because my blades work fine.

Even if the burr is an elusive Holy Grail, just the sheer chase of it has improved my technique. Strokes are more deliberate and fewer than even 6 months ago.

I suppose I have the benefit of never having experienced Brian's edges in person :) In fact I really don't know anyone in person who's much into sharpening or owns any stones beyond what you can get at the box store. So I am self-referencing, as you say.

My basic theory is that if stropping on bare leather noticeably improves the edge after the finish stone, then there was a burr of some sort remaining. If the sharpening is ideal off the finish stone, then bare leather stropping could only degrade the edge, or at least have no effect. The closer I get to this latter state, the better performance and edge retention I'm seeing. Switching this past summer exclusively to freehand sharpening, and to a translucent arkansas as a finishing stone, seems to be helping.

[Pat Barry]

If you can't feel the burr passing over the ridges on your fingers, try a different method. This one is not as quick a testing method as the skin on your finger, but it is more reliable.

Rest the cutting edge at a low angle on your fingernail close to the quick. The angle should be such that the cutting edge, not the bevel, is riding on your nail. To test that you have the right angle, carefully and gently push the blade while increasing the angle until the blade just starts to dig in. Increase and decrease the angle until you have the lowest possible angle where the blade will dig into your fingernail.

Slowly and lighty pull the blade straight back over you fingernail towards your fingertip. If the sensation is absolutely smooth, there is probably not a burr. But if you feel a scraping or catching sensation, that is a sure sign of a burr or some other defect in the cutting edge.

If you discover a burr, next test the same spot on the blade with the finger on your skin, noting the sensation, to train yourself to feel the burr.

This is easy with small blades, but hard with larger plane blades. Please be careful and do this only when kids or pets are not in the shop to distract you.

Stan
This is what works best for me. I find that the burr easily catches on the finger nail in this manner - not so much on my fingerprint. I hate the feeling of pushing the blade into my finger nail however, that's too easy to cause damage (to myself).

[Patrick Chase]

The hollow ground blade will be the easiest for this. Go through your regular routine of sharpening, then when you are completed, return back to the finish stone. Work the bevel and before you work the back check for a burr (it is very very light as this point). That should help to improve your thumb gauge for checking since you will know it is there with certainty. Work the back again and see if you can feel the burr.

If you're seeing light reflecting from the edge, then there is still some wear left. When its totally gone you can't see the edge at all.

I'll take some photos next time I sharpen and see if I can highlight the wear, it may be quite difficult to do with an iPhone but it is surprisingly capable on occasion.

IMO that falls squarely into the category of "asking the iPhone to do things it can't". For that matter it's probably out of the range of even a skilled photographer with professional-level macro equipment.

The sorts of burrs that are left by polishing stones are on the order of microns in size (see the first SEM shot here (https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/what-is-a-burr-part-2/) for example, which shows the aftermath of a Shapton 8K). The minimum focus distance on an iPhone corresponds to the equivalent of about 1:2 magnification on 35 mm or maybe a little closer. Even if the iPhone lens were perfect each pixel would correspond to ~15 um at the subject, and its lens is decidedly imperfect at minimum focus. The iPhone can't possibly image that burr. In theory you can get closer with close-up lenses like the Olloclips, but those are degrading (adding aberrations to) the image at the same time as they magnify it, so there's a fairly low limit to the amount of actual subject resolution you can gain that way.

I have one of these (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/183199-USA/Canon_2540A002_Macro_Photo_MP_E_65mm.html), a camera with 5.5 um pixels (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1274705-REG/canon_eos_5d_mark_iv.html) and a pile of macro lighting and support accessories, and even with that setup I don't think I could clearly image that sort of burr. In theory at 5:1 magnification each pixel would be 1.1 um at the subject, which might be just enough, but in reality diffraction spoils the party. The MP-E 65 is ~f/17 wide-open at 5:1 (5+1 = 6x bellows factor, 6*2.8 = ~17), and you realistically have to stop down to at least f/22 to maximize quality. At f/22 the Airy diffraction disc diameter is ~15 microns to the first null at the sensor, or the equivalent of ~3 um at the subject at 5:1 magnification. That's more (realistically much, much more) than 5X the resolution of the iPhone, but even so it's probably not enough.

Even optical microscopes would be challenged to image that sort of burr, again due to diffraction limits. That's why SEMs were invented in the first place after all.

[Brian Holcombe]

I was thinking more along the lines of picture showing light reflecting from a worn area that remains. For instance, yesterday evening I sharpened my chamfer plane, and while even with moving the block side to side it still wears the center of the blade significantly more than the other areas, I had worked up to the 10k stone only before seeing just a flicker still remaining in the center.....and returning to the 1k stone to remove it.

That sort of thing can sometimes be fairly difficult to find and remove. It could be mistaken as something other than what it is.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Brian-
We've been through this in person before, and I still struggle to find the burr. I can easily raise, feel, and remove burrs at the very rough grits ( < 1000) when I am establishing the primary bevel. But as soon as I move up to the 1000 grit stone, and hone free hand, I can no longer feel a raised burr.


A lot of folks have made good comments about this. My finest stone is an 8000 grit Norton. I can usually feel the burr coming off of that stone. It is a lot less noticeable than the 1000 grit stone, but it is still there. Since I started using a strop, one thing I look for now is a very, very fine area of reflection near the blade edge. I usually strop the back first (one swipe), and will often see that little fine area of reflection when I look at the front of the bevel. A swipe on the bevel side, and it disappears. Another swipe on the back and it sometimes comes back. I suspect that is the wire edge or burr being bent back and forth, and after a couple of swipes on each side it disappears completely.

If you are having trouble feeling the burr, you may try looking for it that way (or I could be wrong about what I think I am seeing, in which case I am sure someone will correct me).

[Stewie Simpson]

A burr worked right up to my finest grit of honing stone. And no difficulties achieving a consistent and reliable cutting edge on my irons using traditional steel.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/The%20Chapin%20Stephens%20Jack%20Plane/_DSC0414_zps0j99sp3n.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/The%20Chapin%20Stephens%20Jack%20Plane/_DSC0414_zps0j99sp3n.jpg.html)

[David Sloan]

I have read and re-read all of your comments and would like to thank everyone. Obviously there is a lot of controversy about sharpening and I am greatly humbled by the expertise that is out there. When I am woodturning, I am sharpening all the time.
I need to have that same diligence (which has not been my practice up to now) when I am woodworking.

[Jim Koepke]

I have read and re-read all of your comments and would like to thank everyone. Obviously there is a lot of controversy about sharpening and I am greatly humbled by the expertise that is out there. When I am woodturning, I am sharpening all the time.
I need to have that same diligence (which has not been my practice up to now) when I am woodworking.

It doesn't seem so much a controversy as it is so many different paths to the same or equal destinations. If something is working, people have a tendency to want to stay with what works for them.

There are also some who prefer their sharpening to be very quick so they can get back to their woodworking. Then there are those who enjoy a few moments "break" to refresh an edge.

To answer your original query:


do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance.

Surely these do refine the edge beyond an 8K stone. Then the question becomes, are they worth the expense?

Maybe an inexpensive way to see if it makes a difference in your work would be to purchase some of the finer grit abrasive films and give them a try.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I have read and re-read all of your comments and would like to thank everyone. Obviously there is a lot of controversy about sharpening and I am greatly humbled by the expertise that is out there. When I am woodturning, I am sharpening all the time.
I need to have that same diligence (which has not been my practice up to now) when I am woodworking.

Echoing and putting a slightly different spin on what Jim says... Everybody comes to the table with somewhat different objectives and constraints, and the solutions they find usually reflect those. Some examples:



Steels to be sharpened. Almost any reasonable sharpening system can handle O1/HCS, but if you want to use higher-alloy/carbide steels then your choices narrow considerably.
Subjective preferences. A lot of people hone freehand and emphasize "feel", and that guides them to certain solutions. Others have a strong preference for traditional approaches. Still others love to have the latest gadget/tool/stone.
Budget, and specifically cost vs time sensitivity.


When you see knowledgeable and reasonable people disagree IMO you should always try to figure out where their requirements differ and how they compare to yours. I believe that's the best way to sort out which advice to take and which to pass on.

[Wendell Steele]

https://youtu.be/yUofvqiwenA

[ken hatch]

https://youtu.be/yUofvqiwenA

Let's see, this is not a quote but near the end he says something to the order of ....To be a real woodworker you have to learn to "freehand" sharpen. This said after showing using a jig to sharpen whatever iron he was sharpening. My favorite parts were the demos of using a table saw and hollow chisel mortiser, those and the sales pitch at the end. Funny video, it was a hoot to watch.

ken

[Stanley Covington]

Let's see, this is not a quote but near the end he says something to the order of ....To be a real woodworker you have to learn to "freehand" sharpen. This said after showing using a jig to sharpen whatever iron he was sharpening. My favorite parts were the demos of using a table saw and hollow chisel mortiser, those and the sales pitch at the end. Funny video, it was a hoot to watch.

ken

Mr. Steele appears to do fine work, but I don't get the point of injecting the video into the thread. What are we supposed to learn? Perhaps something about sharpening, but he went through that process on fast forward, and used a jig exclusively, as Ken pointed out. There is certainly nothing to learn about woodworking using handtools, since he used powertools exclusively except for making some shavings at the end. It was a nice toolbox, but the thread is not about toolboxes. And frankly, his use of the toolbox as sharpening station with two metal pans in the bottom to catch water will not end well.

Mr. Steele, please educate us.

Stan

[Stewie Simpson]

He doesn't look Japanese to me.

[Warren Mickley]

It is an infomercial. Link to plans for $11.95.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm surprised that he didn't face joint the stock.

[Patrick Walsh]

I'm gonna go with the principle and recent trent toward finding a "common ground" on this one.
This guy clearly enjoys woodworking as we all do and has taken the time to devise a system in wich he can produce a really nice finished product.

The whole web sight and selling plans and this or that really turns me off as "is nothing sacred anymore" but who am i each to his own right. People could and im sure do have plenty to say about me..

[Stanley Covington]

I wish Mr. Steele would either enlighten us to how his post and video relate to the thread, or, he would not post irrelevant videos and commercial advertisements.

The story of his toolbox/sharpening station might have made an interesting thread on its own somewhere besides the Neanderthal Cave.

Stan

[William Fretwell]

With all those Canadian tools I thought he was a Canuck!

The screws took me by surprise! Nothing to do with sharpening really. I use my stones on a thin rubber mat firmly on a bench.
If you need to spend $11.95 for those plans then you really NEED to spend $11.95 for those plans!

Wish I could plane pine like that, wait...... I can!

[andy bessette]

Tough crowd! :)

I enjoyed watching the video. Very skilled craftsman.

My own "sharpening station" is a paint roller tray with a few Japanese water stones--nothing to compare with this guy's elaborate setup. If I take something of value away from this it is to be better organized and to consider investing some time in building something nice for my own shop use.

[Pat Barry]

The man does excellent work. I fail to see how some folks here can have an elitist attitude and start nit picking his work. Seriously. So what if the guy tries to make a little money. Personally I do watch many of his video's and usually learn something from them. If you want to complain about him using a jig or machine tools then I think you should continue with those comments on many of the other threads around here including Brians, stevens, Patricks, etc. and let them know just how you feel about their use of such things. No - he's no more Japanese than Brian or Stanley

[Patrick Chase]

Oh my goodness, that video is... awful. Everything about it is just wrong, from the use of decidedly non-traditional non-Japanese tools and methods right on down the line to the porn-y shaving money shot at 5:50 (complete with slo-mo "eject-o-vision"). I was finished after that so I didn't watch the rest.

Somebody please tell me this was posted ironically? Perhaps some Normites decided to have some fun trolling the neanders?

[Stanley Covington]

The man does excellent work. I fail to see how some folks here can have an elitist attitude and start nit picking his work. Seriously. So what if the guy tries to make a little money. Personally I do watch many of his video's and usually learn something from them. If you want to complain about him using a jig or machine tools then I think you should continue with those comments on many of the other threads around here including Brians, stevens, Patricks, etc. and let them know just how you feel about their use of such things. No - he's no more Japanese than Brian or Stanley

In all seriousness, I am confident Mr. Steel had a good reason for posting the video, and that we can learn something valuable from him. Perhaps he will also inform us of his reasons for the use of the word "samurai" too.

Kind of you to defend him, Pat, but he's a big boy. I suggest we wait for him to clarify his points.

[Jim Koepke]

Currently all my blades are sharpened with a fairly loosey goosey 'system.'

Is this video implying if my sharpening 'system' were abandon for a sharpening ritual my results would improve?

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

The man does excellent work. I fail to see how some folks here can have an elitist attitude and start nit picking his work. Seriously. So what if the guy tries to make a little money. Personally I do watch many of his video's and usually learn something from them. If you want to complain about him using a jig or machine tools then I think you should continue with those comments on many of the other threads around here including Brians, stevens, Patricks, etc. and let them know just how you feel about their use of such things. No - he's no more Japanese than Brian or Stanley

I think that certain forms are criticism are more valid than others. While I wouldn't (and didn't) criticize someone for choosing to work as the person in that video did, I think that both he and the poster are fair game on the following points:

1. Posting something so thoroughly power-tool-oriented in the Neander forum. It's OT, period.

2. Billing something made with Western power tools and methods (screws under cosmetic pegs!) as "Japanese" or "Samurai". If I'd spent as much time learning real Japanese methods as Stanley and Brian I'd be pretty offended, too. It's a particularly grotesque form of cultural appropriation.

I think there's also some room for mild snark about the production values of that video :-).

With all of that said the whole thing reeks of trolling, so I suspect we're giving Mr Steele exactly what he wants right now.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

That bamboo water dribbler Japanese tea ceremony thing can not possibly be meant seriously. The whole thing is obviously a joke (maybe making gentle fun of the ridiculous lengths some of us go to in search of the perfect edge?).

It made me laugh anyway.

[andy bessette]

So Neanderthals are not allowed to use ANY power tools? Seems overly restrictive.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

This part of the forum is dedicated to hand tools only, so the power stuff is more appropriate in one of the other forums. That is all they are saying.

[Stanley Covington]

So Neanderthals are not allowed to use ANY power tools? Seems overly restrictive.

I think the point is not that powertools are of the devil, but rather that no handtools were used in the woodworking portion of the video other than to make some decorative shavings. Obviously, this fact makes the woodworking portion of the video less relevant to this forum, IMO. But not the entire video, I am sure. I don't object to either his use of powertools, or their inclusion in the video. I simply want to know the purpose of posting it.

Clearly, Mr. Steel went to a lot of trouble and some expense to make the video. Some explanation of his choice of stones shown in the video would be both very relevant to this thread and informative.

Stan

[Jim Koepke]

I think that certain forms are criticism are more valid than others. While I wouldn't (and didn't) criticize someone for choosing to work as the person in that video did, I think that both he and the poster are fair game on the following points:

1. Posting something so thoroughly power-tool-oriented in the Neander forum. It's OT, period.

2. Billing something made with Western power tools and methods (screws under cosmetic pegs!) as "Japanese" or "Samurai". If I'd spent as much time learning real Japanese methods as Stanley and Brian I'd be pretty offended, too. It's a particularly grotesque form of cultural appropriation.

I think there's also some room for mild snark about the production values of that video :-).

With all of that said the whole thing reeks of trolling, so I suspect we're giving Mr Steele exactly what he wants right now.

You left out number 3:

3. Posting a plug for his site to sell plans for projects.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

So Neanderthals are not allowed to use ANY power tools? Seems overly restrictive.

No, and that's why I said "so thoroughly power-tool oriented". I think it's safe to say that many of us use power tools as enablers, to speed up some time-consuming steps so that we can spend time doing the "fun stuff". IMO there's nothing wrong with that, provided that we recognize that the Neander forum is not the appropriate place in which to discuss it, except tangentially here and there (or in jest :-).

So to recap: Power tools are fine. Neander forum posts/videos that are mostly about power tools are problematic.

[Brian Holcombe]

My only qualm with it is that he calls himself the Samurai carpenter, I find it to be in poor taste. Other than that I don't begrudge the man of his approach.

[Brian Holcombe]

The man does excellent work. I fail to see how some folks here can have an elitist attitude and start nit picking his work. Seriously. So what if the guy tries to make a little money. Personally I do watch many of his video's and usually learn something from them. If you want to complain about him using a jig or machine tools then I think you should continue with those comments on many of the other threads around here including Brians, stevens, Patricks, etc. and let them know just how you feel about their use of such things. No - he's no more Japanese than Brian or Stanley


...a man can build a thousand bridges but the minute he buys a 20" bandsaw he's a machine tool woodworker!?! :p

[Dave Zellers]

My only qualm with it is that he calls himself the Samurai carpenter, I find it to be in poor taste. Other than that I don't begrudge the man of his approach.
But Brian, he's got a bamboo dribbler! :)

[andy bessette]

My own take on the video was perhaps more open minded insofar as, like me, he used a combination of hand and power tools to get the job done. Especially that the whole purpose of his project was to organize the equipment needed to sharpen his hand tools!

On a daily basis I use Japanese saws, various hand planes, chisels, plus a long list of other hand tools. Nevertheless, most of the chips in the trash at the end of the day were produced by my machines, the bandsaw, table saw, radial arm saw, thickness plane, drill press, etc. At 73, I consider myself a thoroughly modern neanderthal. And cannot begrudge a true craftsman who uses the right tool for the job.

[ken hatch]

My only qualm with it is that he calls himself the Samurai carpenter, I find it to be in poor taste. Other than that I don't begrudge the man of his approach.

Brian,

IIRC in some of his other videos he is in what most Westerners conceder full Samurai regalia. It's not worth my time to check if IIRC but bottom line his videos are woodworking porn and a joke. I hope he makes enough money off the posting to pay for all that equipment. Don't cha love marketing.

ken

[Prashun Patel]

In one of his videos he explains how he got that name. It's a tongue-in-cheek reference, in good taste or not.

[michael langman]

In the right place, at the right time, I think his video could be some what acceptable.

But to post that video into this discussion seems utterly rude and unacceptable to me. I am surprised that it was not removed from the post, because it is so self serving and improper to the discussion at hand.

Now I see why the original poster was so hesitant to post a sharpening question.

[Wendell Steele]

Guys that isn't me. I was just sharing a video on how a guy sharpens his tools. Nothing more.

[Derek Cohen]

Of course it wasn't you, Wendell. We knew that. :)

Actually, the video would have been fine if it had been edited down to the sharpening.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

Of course it wasn't you, Wendell. We knew that. :)

Actually, the video would have been fine if it had been edited down to the sharpening.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Not everyone knew it. Some suspected a 'trolling' effort or other such nefarious intentions.

[Prashun Patel]

I checked it out when it was posted. Marginal relevance notwithstanding, it was not self promotion.

[michael langman]

Wendell, I apologise for my previous post.

I did not understand you were not the Samurai Carpenter.

My communication is often too direct at times, and even seems rude to myself.

[Jim Koepke]

My apologies also as I was also one to jump on the bandwagon of criticism.

jtk

[michael langman]

I'm actually quite ashamed of myself.. I felt like I was part of a lynch mob.

[Patrick Chase]

.

Oops; slip of the tongue Patrick.!!!!

Or perhaps I was trolling when I said that...

For the record the closest I come to trolling on SMC is something like this (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?251078-Hesitate-to-ask-a-sharpening-question&p=2649403&highlight=#post2649403) (though to your credit you refused the bait).

[David Sloan]

Well, your comments have all been much appreciated. A belated thanks to Malcolm for his kind offer and I just might take him up on it. I now have 16 planes (most of them pretty old) and a few chisels with very sharp blades. I suppose I should start a new thread but I have a couple of observations/questions: 1) Rob Cosman in a youtube video only seems to use a 1k waterstone then a 16K and demonstrates the advantage for using the 16k (he of course is just working the microbevel); 2) to get a good primary bevel on a blade in bad shape I found the Norton 220 stone not very helpful and had better luck with first going to metal sandpaper placed on my jointer bed sometimes after I had re ground the blade on my grinder; 3) it seems a huge jump to go from the 220 Norton stone to the 1000 and wonder if you all find it helpful to have an intermediate stone between those 2 grits; 4)most satisfying was taking the original (and in very bad shape but very thick) iron from my old Spiers infill plane and getting it to perform like it was supposed to!

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The Norton 220 is not a very good stone in my opinion. I don't go below 1000 much, but have gone straight from a grinder to the 1000 stone on a couple of new-to-me blades that needed a lot of work, and did not have any problem at all.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi David,

I haven't had much luck with stones below 1000 grit. For me a granite slab with some 320 grit paper seems to be good enough for most worn blades. If a blade is real badly chipped, rusted or otherwise in need of extra work an abrasive paper in the 220 or even 80 grit range may be more appropriate.

Since my blades do not use micro bevels my procedure on water stones is usually to go to the 1000 followed by a 4000 then the 8000 and finished on a strop.

The progression is similar on oilstones, only the names are changed to soft Arkansas or India stone to a hard Arkansas then translucent with the final burr breaking done on a piece of hard jasper followed by a strop.

jtk

[David Sloan]

Hi David,

I haven't had much luck with stones below 1000 grit. For me a granite slab with some 320 grit paper seems to be good enough for most worn blades. If a blade is real badly chipped, rusted or otherwise in need of extra work an abrasive paper in the 220 or even 80 grit range may be more appropriate.

Since my blades do not use micro bevels my procedure on water stones is usually to go to the 1000 followed by a 4000 then the 8000 and finished on a strop.

The progression is similar on oilstones, only the names are changed to soft Arkansas or India stone to a hard Arkansas then translucent with the final burr breaking done on a piece of hard jasper followed by a strop.

jtk

Thanks Jim, I was pleased with what I could achieve with the coarser grits of paper which is something I had never tried. I suppose the coarser DMT diamond plates I was looking at in Woodcraft would be an option to the paper as well. A more expensive option certainly.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Thanks Jim, I was pleased with what I could achieve with the coarser grits of paper which is something I had never tried. I suppose the coarser DMT diamond plates I was looking at in Woodcraft would be an option to the paper as well. A more expensive option certainly.

Eh...I have a large "extra-coarse" DMT (220 grit) dia-sharp, close to 10 years old now. Even when new, it did not impress me with its speed- serious back flattening or bevel work will still get done on 80 or 150 grit sandpaper. I'd hoped the DMT would replace sandpaper in that role, but it's just not fast enough, especially after being worn in for a while.

Don't get me wrong though, it is a good stone...nice and flat, and has hung on for years doing a bunch of stone flattening. I still use it as kind of a medium-coarse stone, transitioning from 80 grit sandpaper (which never seems leaves a perfectly flat surface) to a coarse india or 1000 grit waterstone.

So sandpaper is king for heavy work to me, but remains enough of a hassle that I am still on the lookout for a better coarse stone. I've tried a Norton 220- and I agree with Nicholas that it is not very good...wears out of flat too quickly without being aggressive enough to make up for it. I have a coarse india stone, which is just slightly slower than the DMT xc but leaves a much better finish, which is useful. But not fast enough for removing nicks, etc.

Currently I have a coarse (120 grit) Crystolon on the way. This is supposedly a somewhat friable oil stone, which should keep it cutting fast compared to other oil stones. We'll see if that's true, and if it stays flat enough for long enough to be useful.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Currently I have a coarse (120 grit) Crystolon on the way. This is supposedly a somewhat friable oil stone, which should keep it cutting fast compared to other oil stones. We'll see if that's true, and if it stays flat enough for long enough to be useful.

I have been thinking about those. From what I read, they are silicon carbide, which everyone seems to like in powder form. To be honest though, with a grinder and the 1000/8000 combination I have, I can't really justify it. I figure if I buy one of those, then I'll have to buy an Arkansas stone just out of curiosity, etc., etc. Maybe once I wear out my waterstones.

[Patrick Chase]

Hi David,

I haven't had much luck with stones below 1000 grit. For me a granite slab with some 320 grit paper seems to be good enough for most worn blades. If a blade is real badly chipped, rusted or otherwise in need of extra work an abrasive paper in the 220 or even 80 grit range may be more appropriate.

If you look at the cost-benefit tradeoff between stones and paper, paper does relatively best at lower grit numbers.

One way to think of this is to imagine "layers" of abrasive in the stone, and assume that each layer has a fixed life before the binder must release it and expose the next one. Coarse stones have larger particles, which means that each such layer is proportionately thicker. This has two negative effects:

1. Coarse stones dish faster. The cutting points on the grits don't last much longer on coarse grits than on finer ones, but the layers are thicker, so the net result is that the stone dishes more quickly even if the binder releases the same # of layers per unit time.

2. Coarse stones don't last as long because each stone has fewer layers of abrasive in total.

In contrast sandpaper always has one layer of abrasive, and the cost is relatively constant across grits. It therefore compares most favorably at coarse grits.

I've found some relatively economical coarse stones that I personally like (Sigma Power 120 oversize, Suehiro Cerax 320, Sigma Power 3F 700 - all 50 mm thick and relatively inexpensive), but I usually advise friends new to sharpening to stick to sandpaper below #1000.

[Jim Koepke]

If you look at the cost-benefit tradeoff between stones and paper, paper does relatively best at lower grit numbers.

[edited]



Another consideration is the coarse grits are usually not needed as much unless you let your tools get really dull, you get a lot of nicks or you are constantly rehabilitating rust hunt finds.

Even in such cases for me a 4' long strip of abrasive paper is more productive than a coarse stone that needs flattening every few minutes.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I covered my own experience with the Norton Crystolon Oilstones within post #19 of the following thread; http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?251494-how-to-clean-refresh-glazed-oilstone/page2

Stewie;

Crystolons are good stones. The Sigma Power 120 stone that I mentioned in a previous reply is actually very similar to a coarse Crystolon in that they're both coarse-grit SiC stones with fairly hard binders.

The big difference between the two is that the Crystolon is "filled" with some sort of viscous petroleum (as we've discussed before) so that it can be used with a small amount of oil as lubricant, while the Sigma is porous and is intended to be soaked in and periodically flushed with water. Flattening procedures are the same and take about the same amount of effort for both.

[bridger berdel]

I tried the Belgian Coticle (5k) and wished I had not.


What was the problem with the coticule?

[Stewie Simpson]

Another consideration is the coarse grits are usually not needed as much unless you let your tools get really dull, you get a lot of nicks or you are constantly rehabilitating rust hunt finds.

Even in such cases for me a 4' long strip of abrasive paper is more productive than a coarse stone that needs flattening every few minutes.

jtk

I covered my own experience with the Norton Crystolon Oilstones within post #19 of the following thread; http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...oilstone/page2 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?251494-how-to-clean-refresh-glazed-oilstone/page2)

Stewie;

[Marty Schlosser]

Stan,

I fully agree with your advice about never using the rular trick, but would carry it one step further: NEVER, EVER use it.


David:

Let me add one comment. This "ruler trick" has been debated ad nauseam, ab absurdo. I don't want to start up the debate again. But since you are relatively new at this, and since you are asking for advice, let me give you some more. it will be worth every penny you pay for it.

I urge you to not blindly follow my advice just because I tell you to, or because I make a convincing argument, but because you thoroughly understand what sharpening is, and have really thought through the long-term benefits of using the ruler trick or not.

The ruler trick works. Please figure out why it works. Make some drawings and analyze the long-term effects of using the ruler trick.

It is not a good long-term methodology for a couple of reasons. The first is that it is a crutch that will prevent you from learning how to sharpen freehand. The same goes for sharpening jigs. This is not a good way to develop the most basic woodworking skill.

The second reason is that, while sharpening jigs reliably produce a nice, flat, very useful bevel that can then be worked freehand with no problems, the ruler trick creates a bevel on the back/flat of the blade that can only be properly re-sharpened using the ruler trick. Therefore, you must rely on the ruler trick always. Not tragic, but less than ideal.

So, when you use the ruler trick, the blade's back is messed up, and you do not develop the skills necessary to sharpen the blade's back without using the ruler trick.

Of course, the ruler trick is not a good idea for chisels.

Learn how to sharpen like a craftsman.

Stan

[david charlesworth]

Marty,

I refer you to the answer which I gave to Stan.

The method is recommended by L-N, Rob Cosman, Chris Schwarz and Tom Fidgen to mention a few.

There must be many people who are enjoying the benefits.

David Charlesworth

[Robert Engel]

Marty,

Not intending to steer the thread toward Mr. Charlesworth's technique, my question is once using the ruler trick, why would it be necessary to re-flatten the back?

I also disagree re: it inhibits freehand sharpening skills. I've never viewed the back bevel as a way to allow sloppy honing or correct improper honing, just a way to improve an (already acceptable) edge.

[Stanley Covington]

Marty,

I refer you to the answer which I gave to Stan.

David Charlesworth

I don't remember asking a question, much less one that required an answer. All I saw was a rebuttal. The free exchange of opinions is what makes the forum valuable, so rebuttals are very welcome. Let each man judge for himself.

Stan

[Pat Barry]

Hesitate to ask a sharpening questionI had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.

Interesting that the conversations always drift from the original as posed by the OP to something on the order of rehashing previously beaten to death topics such as: the pros and cons of the ruler trick or other sharpening methods no one can agree on.

I personally feel the the most important aspect of a sharp tool is having a very sharp, undubbed edge. If you can't make a good intersectional edge between the back of the tool and the bevel then higher grit stones are not the salvation one might expect. In fact, you would do far better to create a clean intersection of the two faces involved at a lower grit than result in a highly polished pair of faces with a dubbed over corner.

[Patrick Chase]

Marty,

I refer you to the answer which I gave to Stan.

The method is recommended by L-N, Rob Cosman, Chris Schwarz and Tom Fidgen to mention a few.

There must be many people who are enjoying the benefits.

David Charlesworth

Don't feed the trolls.

Marty's a normite, and probably just trying to get even with us for pointing out how irrationally frothy his peeps get at the mere mention of SawStop.

Stan's a True Believer (tm). Nothing anybody says or does will get him to see perspectives beyond his own.

[Stanley Covington]

Don't feed the trolls.

Marty's a normite, and probably just trying to get even with us for pointing out how irrationally frothy his peeps get at the mere mention of SawStop.

Stan's a True Believer (tm). Nothing anybody says or does will get him to see perspectives beyond his own.

Please sir, can I have some more?

[Mel Fulks]

Please sir, can I have some more?
Stanley will be GREAT in our new production of OLIVER!!

[Patrick Chase]

Please sir, can I have some more?

It's so disappointing when people won't take the bait :-)

Seriously, I appreciate your in-depth articles esp about Japanese tools and techniques and learn a lot from you. I honestly think you have teeny blind spot around some specific techniques, and that you're pretty hard on David as a result, but then don't we all.

[Stanley Covington]

It's so disappointing when people won't take the bait :-)

Seriously, I appreciate your in-depth articles esp about Japanese tools and techniques and learn a lot from you. I honestly think you have teeny blind spot around some specific techniques, and that you're pretty hard on David as a result, but then don't we all.

What? Me not dive headlong after troll bait? ;)

Allow me to give some background. I own all of Mr. Charlesworth's books and a couple of his DVD's. Based on those published works and his comments on this forum, I have great respect for him. He is analytical, logical, and always gives careful, well-reasoned explanations. He is a wonderful teacher with a charming personality and has a magnificent hairdo (I am as balde as is a coote). He does impressive work. If the opportunity presented itself, I would like to meet him. I have nothing against him.

I was impressed with his ruler trick upon reading about it, and used it for a year or so (IIRC) on my Bailey style planes. I found that it works. Unequivocally. That's why I always say "it works." But I have reservations about the long-term effects. I don't think this is "being hard" on Mr. Charlesworth, Patrick. It is only my opinion, and worth every penny you pay for it. A blind spot, you say? I suppose we all have those, but when it comes to the ruler trick, it is not blindness, but experience upon which I have based my opinions. I guess your experience has been different. That is allowed :D

Unlike mine, his opinion is recorded for posterity in books and DVD's, and is worthy not only of emulation, but cashy money. Indeed, I believe it has justifiably earned him more than a few pennies. There may even be an ROI at stake. So I understand why he vigorously defends his opinion. It is worthy of defense.

So we have differing opinions, but don't tell me to shutup.

To everyone who reads this I say, give Mr. Charlesworth's ruler trick a try, and judge for yourself. It has valid merits. But in the case of new guys, I have given warning that they should not let the development of their sharpening skills stagnate through dependency.

Stan

PS: I may be doing a large construction project in London again in a few years. If that happens, I would hope to give Mr. Charlesworth the opportunity to correct my ill-informed opinions in person. Should I wear a wig?

[Patrick Chase]

So we have differing opinions, but don't tell me to shutup.

I didn't (and wouldn't) tell you to shut up.

I encouraged David to stop taking the bait and responding every time somebody takes a cheap shot at the ruler trick (as Marty did), because at this point nobody's opinion is going to change.

[Dave Zellers]

... I would hope to give Mr. Charlesworth the opportunity to correct my ill-informed opinions in person. Should I wear a wig?
If I am allowed... Absolutely NOT! Said a fellow coote. In fact, take your finest stone to it and put a mirror finish up there. :cool:

I've been holding off employing the ruler trick for the very reasons you describe. I am just now learning this level of honing and the last 2-3 weeks of intensive effort have been an exercise in enthusiasm, frustration, learning and understanding, resulting in the willingness to start completely over and do EVERYTHING again now applying what I just learned. Tremendous progress and results are just now starting to present themselves. I actually got a straight shaving off my old Bailey 31 jointer plane that I bought at a yard sale 35 years ago. That was a first. It seems to me that the ruler trick should be reserved for those who are already masters at sharpening and completely understand what is going on.

Sort of a crawl before you walk thing.

[david charlesworth]

Well Stan, thank you very much for your kind words, much appreciated.

I was a bit short earlier because of certain phrases you used;

"Long term effects" there are none.

"less than ideal" I don't think so. Back bevel does not grow to more than about 1.3mm and can be removed in ten minutes or so, if required.

"back messed up" again not the case.

We will have to differ!

Best wishes,
David

[Kees Heiden]

The major reason why I've always hohummed the ruler trick, is that you are not supposed to use it on chisels. So in practice it is only half a solution, because I want my chisels at least as sharp as my plane blades. Better to learn how to sharpen without the ruler trick, that's more like a complete solution.

[Derek Cohen]

Kees, your logic does not hold. David does not use the RT on his chisels either, and as we all are aware, it is not for use on chisels. By-and-large, chisels are many times narrower than plane blades, which means that there is a significant difference in the amount of steel to work. The RT is to save the effort on the larger surfaces, where it counts.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andy Nichols]

When the ruler trick is taught by Rob Cosman in class, one has to freehand sharpen, there are no honing guides....Rob also explains the why he uses it and how not to use it if one so chooses. Moreover, as it has been stated, it's not used on chisels, and sharpening chisels is part of the class.

Sometimes I use it sometimes not, but don't understand why some say never use it....

Andy

[Prashun Patel]

All's been said. If you feel strongly for me to re-open; pm.