How to fix this goof?

[Paul Richard]

Hi All (again), :-)

I'm still working on technique and accuracy and as a result I often end up with joinery that's a bit off. For most of what I do I don't care, but this is going to a friend, so I want to know how you guys would fix this gap? I've saved the sander dust from the parts (all cherry) so I have matching material. I've considered...
- Thetrick where you mix glue and sawdust to make a filler, but am not sure of the ratio or process. Is that a good idea?
- I was thinking of rounding the inside of the stile as well as the end grain of the rails to create a shadow line, but I'm not sure how traditional that is for a Mission style frame.
- I was thinking of taking a hair or two off on the jointer to get things square, isn't doing that on end grain a recipe for disaster?
- I also figured I could just give up the hobby and stick to cutting my grass. :-)

351929

Thoughts?

Thanks!

- Paul

[Bob Vavricka]

Yes on trying to joint end grain of a narrow board a recipe for disaster--Don't try it.
In your picture are the two pieces just clamped together? If so, are they square to each other? In the picture it looks like there is a consistent gap the full length of the joint. If so, then I would check to see how square the edge of the stile is to the face and if the rail is cut square between the face and the end. How are you cutting the rails to length? My guess is that whatever you are cutting the rails to length with needs to be checked to make sure it is cutting square--check that the blade is square to the table.

[Lee Schierer]

Additional photos and/or and explanation of what you are trying to build would be helpful.

[David Eisenhauer]

1. Is it already glued?
2. Is it a mortise and tenon joint? or how did/is it going to be joined?
3. Is the rail to stile joint square?
4. If it is already glued, experiment with scraps to recreate a small gap like that and see what ratio of glue to sawdust works best. The Timbermate products also work well but you will need to find the closest color match. It is better to err on the side of too dark rather than too light when attempting to match color. A shellac and sawdust mixture also works well.
5. If it is not glued, what is holding it apart from closing on the show side? If it is M&T, is the tenon too long? is the tenon shoulder on the back side too long?

[Brian Tymchak]

By chance, did the panel bottom out in the grooves? Is the frame/panel assembled or is the picture showing a dry fit?

[Joe Spear]

A very thin sliver of wood will fill the gap better than any sort of sawdust or other filler. Shave a thin piece of the cherry and slide it into the gap with some hide glue. (That will mess up the finishing less than other types of glue.) Once you sand the area, the fill should be hardly noticeable.

[David Eisenhauer]

This^. Joe called it. Use a chop say to slice a thin piece of wood off of a blank, then hold the piece up against a stop block and use a chisel to pare the end of the piece against the stop block down to a wedge shape. Tap the thin end in, use liquid hide glue and saw the remainder of the wedge off when it is dry. I'm glad Joe brought it up because I have used this but forgot all about it. In this case, do not saw a piece off of the end but do a rip cut to get some side grain instead of end grain for a better blend in.

[Jim Becker]

A very thin sliver of wood will fill the gap better than any sort of sawdust or other filler. Shave a thin piece of the cherry and slide it into the gap with some hide glue. (That will mess up the finishing less than other types of glue.) Once you sand the area, the fill should be hardly noticeable.
This. Always fill with wood when you can. Glue and sawdust isn't going to be kind to your project or your finishing steps and will suddenly jump out and be completely visible. The only time I ever use that technique is if I'm painting the piece and even then, I use spackle rather than glue/dust.

In this particular case, it would be extremely difficult to get something that matched the rail to fill the gap, so I'd match the stile and carefully trim it. While the stile will be slightly wider at that specific point, it will be relatively invisible post finishing.

[lowell holmes]

I would go with Joe and David. A sliver of wood would be less noticeable.

[Brian Williamson]

I agree with Bob and Brian above. It looks to be bottoming out somewhere. If it's not glued up then this should be totally fixable. If it is glued up I would think the tiny wedge fix would be your best bet.

[Paul Richard]

Hi Bob,

Answers...

Yes, just clamped, dry. A dowel will hold them together when glued up.
They were as square as I could get them, before sanding. They looked really good before then.

I believe the stile is pretty straight, but will double check that.

I could probably remove a fuzz at the end of the top and bottom stiles without messing things up, but clearly I need to confirm that my cut will be square before doing that.

- Paul

[Paul Richard]

Hi Lee,

Good point...

It's a Mission style frame that will hold a stained glass panel. Attached is an additional picture. Original photo is upper right joint.

- Paul

352003

[Paul Richard]

Hi David,

Answers...
1. No, dry fit.
2. Single dowel at all 4 joints.
3. The joint is reasonably square (I'm a weekend warrior/rookie, so square is all relative :-)
4. Not already glued. Never tried any of the hide glue. Is the idea to just fill the void with the hide glue, or do you need to mix that with saw dust as well?
5. Nothing is holding it apart, dowel hole is deep enough. I didn't sand the end of the stile evenly, I believe that is what created the gap.

I think my lesson is to not sand the end of a stile in the manner I used, which was stile in one hand, ROS in other.

- Paul

[Paul Richard]

Dry fit, no it did not bottom out, but I sure wish it did. :-)

[Paul Richard]

Trying that scares me! :-) I think I'd make more of a mess. I guess I could experiment on some scraps.

[Paul Richard]

Oops, I mean upper left.

[Andy Giddings]

Paul, looks from the main picture as if something is out of square as you have an angled gap bottom left and top right? The other two joints look reasonably tight

[Jeff Leimberger]

I would plow the groove a little deeper and cut the rails again (actually, I would shoot the end of the rails).
Yes, it sounds like you are starting over, but it would be correct.

[Justin Ludwig]

Do you have a miter saw? Lower your blade, butt the piece against the saw blade and raise and cut. It will shave the piece back to square. Put a sacrificial board under and behind it so you get no tear out. And don't freehand sand end-grain pieces that are part of a joint.

[NICK BARBOZA]

Paul

5. why would you sand the end of the stile??? if tooling is set up close to accurate (even if off a little), a saw cut end from the table saw or miter saw should be ready for glue up (or at least that's how i'd approach it). It sounds like you may be doing extra work in sanding areas like this...

Cheers,
NWB

[Paul Richard]

Paul

5. why would you sand the end of the stile??? if tooling is set up close to accurate (even if off a little), a saw cut end from the table saw or miter saw should be ready for glue up (or at least that's how i'd approach it). It sounds like you may be doing extra work in sanding areas like this...

Cheers,
NWB

It's a good question. It was a stupid thing to do with a ROS. There was some glue residue, but I probably could have cleaned that with just a few swipes by hand.

[Paul Richard]

I'm going to try to trim the ends of the rails, ever so slightly and see how that works.

Thanks for everyone's help and feedback!

Someday I'll learn how to avoid having to do all of these reworks....someday. :)

[Richard Hash]

You could always plow over with a straight bit on a router and stick in strips of walnut and call it a design feature....

[Todd Burch]

Glue a fat piece on the stile where you sanded it too far down and recut it to size. With a tight fit, you'll never see it.

[lowell holmes]

Or, sand the stile to make the mismatch disappear.

Just a thought. . . .

[Floyd Mah]

Jeff L. has the answer: shoot the end of the un-square end to make it square. Try the fit without the dowel, it might be that your dowel holes are not angled properly, causing your joint not to come together at right angles. If the dowel is the problem, you might need to shave the dowel or alter the dowel hole. Maybe just shortening the dowel is sufficient, since your frame doesn't need a lot of strength. (If the dowel is a problem, just cut off enough to allow the adjustment and drop the offcut into the hole so that your remainder dowel doesn't fall into the hole during glue-up).

It looks like your frame can tolerate some adjustments like shortening the lower rail, so as to minimize the effects of trimming of the upper rail, if that is the problem.

[Eric Commarato]

I've used edge banding veneer, you can scrape the heat activated glue off the back and slide it in with some Titebond on each side.

[Ray Newman]

Floyd Mah: has it -- both rails must be the same length and 90 degrees.!

[Floyd Mah]

I just wanted to add that there is a simple way to square your stock if you have a table saw. Make a sled. Doesn't have to be fancy, but it would make it a snap to square off ends and, with a stop block, allowing you to easily cut pieces that are identical in length. It's a tool that is indispensable for handling smaller pieces of wood on a table saw. (Be sure to make it with a blade guard on the exit side...I see too many on youtube that aren't safe.)