So 40 years in, I finally know how to sharpen my tools.

[Dave Zellers]

Been a finish carpenter / wood worker / cabinet maker all my life. Being a cabinet maker doesn't mean you're worthy of the cover of Fine Woodworking. It means you make a living providing value to your clients. Most people want a simple cabinet to put stuff in. They are not looking to make a statement, they just want a place to hide some of their crap. Sharpening chisels and plane irons comes with the territory. Necessity is the spice of life and when your tools are dull, you sharpen them by whatever means you have.

I have ALWAYS known I was just a poser, sharpening wise, but a decent poser. I got by, thanks very much. There is nothing wrong with getting buy, But the collective knowledge of the internet is a Siren Song for those who believe that learning never ends.

So I joined this group of woodworking miscreants and have never been able to ignore any of the sharpening threads. But I have been able to resist spending money on the sharpening tools du jour. Then Christmas rolled around and rather than get something I didn't want, I asked for a Shapton 5000 grit ceramic stone- the cheaper all Japanese one not the made for USA Pro stone. I'll cut to the chase. It took me all of 3 days experimenting with this stone to go back online and pony up for 3 more stones- 320, 1500 and 12,000 grit.

I just spent the afternoon using these stones. I had an intellectual understanding of what to expect after years of reading, but that can't explain the actual experience of using them. To be clear, there is no magic, you have to do the work of much stroking and focusing on technique but as you get up into the higher grits, the results present themselves. Part of me was amazed and part of me expected exactly what I was getting because I was willing to do the work even if it meant going back and redoing bad technique. It doesn't take long to see what you are doing wrong.

This is because I also spent countless hours watching YouTube sharpening videos.

At the end of the day, I walked upstairs (basement shop) and said to my wife, "After 40 years, I just learned how to sharpen my tools."

It was a good day.

[Frederick Skelly]

Glad you liked the Shaptons. I also got sucked into their vortex - bought their 6000, then a 1000, then a 500. Now, I'm trying hard to resist a 320. They're really nice stones.

Fred

Edit: I found myself wondering if our forefathers would have had a similar experience. Like you, they probably used what tools they had to feed their families. But - like you just sorta demonstrated - jumped to better tools/stones/technologies if they'd had the money and opportunity.

(No, I'm not trying to srat another food fight guys. :))

[Justin Ludwig]

I drank that kool-aid a while back and am glad I did.

I left a chisel on a job site by mistake. A trim guy, that I regularly hire, found it and set it inside a drawer for me. He called me and said, "Hey, is this your chisel?" Me- Yeah. "Why is it so sharp?" Me- Use it and you'll see why. That chisel was just a cheap Popular Mechanics version that I sharpen with a 700g diamond stone, nothing more.

He now sharpens his chisels and sends out all his miter/TS blades for sharpening. He had 20 blades in his trailer that were dull.

[Jeff Bartley]

Dave,
Don't forget about flattening your stones. I'm sure you've read the many threads covering this topic. I really like the Atoma 400.
It's hard to let the sharp things get dull these days, sharp edges work so much better!

[Andrew Hughes]

Execellant news Dave I can relate :rolleyes:

[Dave Zellers]

Dave,
Don't forget about flattening your stones. I'm sure you've read the many threads covering this topic.
Yes- I have one of those granite blocks. Use it with 280 wet dry paper. Works really well.

It's time to go back down and sharpen something!:)

[Jim Koepke]

Glad to hear you finally learned about sharp Dave.

My journey started at a very young age with pocket knives. Never got anything real sharp until in my 50s. That is when my woodworking started in ernest. It took a few years after that to finally get sharp enough blades to realize what wasn't working for so long.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Welcome to the tip of the iceberg :)

[Bob Glenn]

Use what is available. This past Thanksgiving the wife and I went out to see the kids and grandkids. As usual, they always have plenty for me to do around their house. The son is starting to take some interest in building things and we built a wall rack together while I was there. I had brought some of my tools along in anticipation of what would be needed, however, I didn't anticipate the need for a plane. When the need for a plane arose, he said, he just bought one off the bay and went and got it. The blade was as dull as could be and needed to be ground and sharpened before it would do anything.

He didn't have a grinder, much less stones, but I asked and he came up with some 100 grit sandpaper. I knew it would take more sandpaper than what he had to grind any kind of edge on the blade, so I did the initial grinding and shaping on the concrete sidewalk, then finished up with the sandpaper on a flat board. It was now where near what I would settle for in my shop, however, it worked!

[William Fretwell]

Most of wood work is presenting a sharp edge to wood. The sharper the edge the more polished the wood. Get the right shape behind the edge and the edge is stronger. Diamond plates to flatten your stones YES!
Bought a custom knife in Elmax with proper heat treatment recently just to see how it is. The maker leaves you to do the final finish on the edge. By the time I finished I had re-defined sharp in my head, what a steel! The smallest touch cuts. I should add it's very tough, it took a while.
So how much steel do we get through in our lives in all our tools; 1", 2",3"....6"?

[Prashun Patel]

in 40 more years, you will REALLY know how to sharpen ;)

[Patrick Chase]

Then Christmas rolled around and rather than get something I didn't want, I asked for a Shapton 5000 grit ceramic stone- the cheaper all Japanese one not the made for USA Pro stone.

Most knowledgeable people who are not named Harrelson Stanley (a.k.a. "Shapton USA") believe that the "made for USA Pro stone" and the Japanese one are one and the same. The Glass stones are a different matter - they stopped selling those in Japan per Stu, and they're now pretty much only available through US channels.

In any case I think that's a good choice for an initial stone. They're spendy for what you get because they're thinner than other similarly priced stones, but they're also pretty easy to use. The 5K has a nasty habbit of loading up and "catching" (loaded spots form such that the blade just skips over them) but that can be fixed by adding water. Just make sure not to soak them for more than ~15 min. They're like Magnesia stones in that excessive soaking is harmful.



I'll cut to the chase. It took me all of 3 days experimenting with this stone to go back online and pony up for 3 more stones- 320, 1500 and 12,000 grit.

I just spent the afternoon using these stones. I had an intellectual understanding of what to expect after years of reading, but that can't explain the actual experience of using them. To be clear, there is no magic, you have to do the work of much stroking and focusing on technique but as you get up into the higher grits, the results present themselves. Part of me was amazed and part of me expected exactly what I was getting because I was willing to do the work even if it meant going back and redoing bad technique. It doesn't take long to see what you are doing wrong.

This is because I also spent countless hours watching YouTube sharpening videos.

At the end of the day, I walked upstairs (basement shop) and said to my wife, "After 40 years, I just learned how to sharpen my tools."

It was a good day.

Now all you need to do is start playing with exotic steels and sharpening setups. I see diamond paste in your future :-).

[Dave Zellers]

The 5K has a nasty habbit of loading up and "catching" (loaded spots form such that the blade just skips over them) but that can be fixed by adding water.
I am experiencing exactly that. Spent five hours today sharpening plane irons. Starting to get comfortable with the process. Most of the work goes into flattening the back.
I did know that the cheaper Shaptons are the same as the "Pro" line. Shapton says the pro line has been adjusted for "humidity" in the USA. ��

It kinda seems like I need something between the 320 and the 1500.

[Stewie Simpson]

Edit: I found myself wondering if our forefathers would have had a similar experience. Like you, they probably used what tools they had to feed their families. But - like you just sorta demonstrated - jumped to better tools/stones/technologies if they'd had the money and opportunity.

I think some of you members need a good dose of reality into what was being achieved by those craftsmen of days gone by. No fancy pants metal planes emblazoned with the LN or LV logo were being used, nor were they using exotic steel alloys within their blades, nor were they using high tech ceramic sharpening stones. And guess what, they were more than likely achieving better results within their woodwork than most of you could even dream of.

Dave, my apologies for being so forthright, but if its has taken you 40yrs within your craft to finally learn how to achieve a sharp edge on your tools, it wasn't the fault of sharpening stones you were using.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woode%20try%20plane%20refurbishment/_DSC0377_zpstv2razyp.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woode%20try%20plane%20refurbishment/_DSC0377_zpstv2razyp.jpg.html)

Stewie;

[Jerry Olexa]

Sharpening has always been a challenge for me also...In spite of my many years of WWing....I've tried many methods, jigs, machines, stones but my lack of patience usually got in way,,I recently bought a TORMEK and having generally good results but it does absorb much time (I'd rather be woodworking than sharpening)...So, I understand your frustration..Glad you found a solution...(it may not be your last:)),,,A fellow not totally happy sharpener. We all tend to look for the perfect solution,

[Ray Selinger]

It been 45years for me. First there was the grey silicon carbide, with a light touch,you sharpened in the slurry. then the brown India, next came the white Arkansas , now the yellow Imanishi.

[Dave Zellers]

I think some of you members need a good dose of reality into what was being achieved by those craftsmen of days gone by. No fancy pants metal planes emblazoned with the LN or LV logo were being used, nor were they using exotic steel alloys within their blades, nor were they using high tech ceramic sharpening stones. And guess what, they were more than likely achieving better results within their woodwork than most of you could even dream of.
"Most of you" is the key, but I couldn't agree more. Paul Sellers is an excellent example and proponent of this reality. I'm a huge fan. You don't need a fancy shop or expensive tools to do beautiful work. But it's also clear that modern technology is upping the game for many serious woodworkers.

Dave, my apologies for being so forthright, but if its has taken you 40yrs within your craft to finally learn how to achieve a sharp edge on your tools, it wasn't the fault of sharpening stones you were using.
Hey, hey, hey there- I've created many sharp edges in my day! :) As I said, I've gotten by rather nicely over the years. Many a co-worker has marveled at my sharp chisels. OK, usually because they had no clue how to sharpen theirs.

For me, this is not about finally being able to create a sharp edge, I've been doing that for a long time. This is about beginning the process of mastering that craft which includes acquiring the proper tools (my favorite thing). Very different.

HOWEVER- no apology is ever necessary with me. I love a well placed smack upside the head if there is something to be learned from it. And there is ALWAYS something to be learned during any exchange of knowledge and ideas. It's why I'm here.

I like the picture you posted. I am marveling at the perfect curls I'm getting after my time spent sharpening today. It's extremely encouraging.

There should be a market for perfect curls. :D

[Jim Koepke]

There should be a market for perfect curls. :D

The only one to my knowledge is with young kids in arts & crafts class. They glue them to paper bags (for hair) and make paper bag puppets.

Good project for rainy days.

jtk

[Dave Zellers]

:) Love it.

[Derek Cohen]

Most of wood work is presenting a sharp edge to wood.

That is the simple truth.

We always remember the first time we put plane to wood and produced shavings. Forever indelibly imprinted in our memory, the curlies were perfect and the resulting wood surface was sublime. It was never as good again, and we spend our days searching for Nirvana once more.

Working with wood is a hard enough habit to kick, but paring joinery with a sharp chisel engulfs us once more. There is no cure to this addiction. A sharp edge is so "precious" ...

Regards from Perth

Derek (I can stop anytime)

[Stewie Simpson]

"Most of you" is the key, but I couldn't agree more. Paul Sellers is an excellent example and proponent of this reality. I'm a huge fan. You don't need a fancy shop or expensive tools to do beautiful work. But it's also clear that modern technology is upping the game for many serious woodworkers.

Hey, hey, hey there- I've created many sharp edges in my day! :) As I said, I've gotten by rather nicely over the years. Many a co-worker has marveled at my sharp chisels. OK, usually because they had no clue how to sharpen theirs.

For me, this is not about finally being able to create a sharp edge, I've been doing that for a long time. This is about beginning the process of mastering that craft which includes acquiring the proper tools (my favorite thing). Very different.

HOWEVER- no apology is ever necessary with me. I love a well placed smack upside the head if there is something to be learned from it. And there is ALWAYS something to be learned during any exchange of knowledge and ideas. It's why I'm here.

I like the picture you posted. I am marveling at the perfect curls I'm getting after my time spent sharpening today. It's extremely encouraging.

There should be a market for perfect curls. :D

Appreciate the clarification Dave.

regards Stewie;

[Jim Koepke]

I think some of you members need a good dose of reality into what was being achieved by those craftsmen of days gone by. No fancy pants metal planes emblazoned with the LN or LV logo were being used, nor were they using exotic steel alloys within their blades, nor were they using high tech ceramic sharpening stones. And guess what, they were more than likely achieving better results within their woodwork than most of you could even dream of.

Dave, my apologies for being so forthright, but if its has taken you 40yrs within your craft to finally learn how to achieve a sharp edge on your tools, it wasn't the fault of sharpening stones you were using.

Stewie;

It has been said many times the wood doesn't care what plane or metal in the blade is being used. The person using the finished piece will not be able to discern what tools were used.

Most likely in the past just like today, everyone who owns or owned a plane or chisel, no matter how "fancy pants" their tools might have been for the time was not a master of their tools.

For every master craftsman's piece of furniture we see today there were likely hundreds of pieces that weren't of heirloom quality and were either tossed on the trash heap or burned for heat when they became a bit on the rickety side.

All but one of my bench planes are "fancy pants" old beat up Stanley/Bailey planes that have been cleaned up and made usable. I do have a lot of wooden molding planes. The wooden planes are very nice to use. As for smoothers, jointers, jacks and tri-planes at least a hundred metal planes cross my path for each wood bodied plane that shows up. Most of the wooden bodied planes have problems that are not easy to repair. So for me it is either going "fancy pants" metal or nothing.

The OP posted about his water stone epiphany. Isn't that more a moment for celebration of new learning instead of an off the mark criticism of their past?

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

All but one of my bench planes are "fancy pants" old beat up Stanley/Bailey planes that have been cleaned up and made usable.

Jim; check my post. I made no mention of Stanley/Bailey planes.

regards Stewie;

[Derek Cohen]

Just a reality check ...

I have no issue with fancy-schmancy, oldie-but-goodie, down-and-dirty, or came-down-with-the-ark .... what is important is what you produce with them, and does this bring you pleasure? Tools are just tools, and fancy or imperfect is all the same when they are poorly sharpened.

I'd suggest that the next person who pours cold water on the joy of another should be requested to post pictures of their work with handtools to determine their level of expertise.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

It kinda seems like I need something between the 320 and the 1500.

If you want to stay with Shapton then the 1000 is a great stone. It arguably "made" their reputation in the US.

IMO the 500 Shapton glass stones are not cost-effective, because they dish fast, they're very thin (5 or 10 mm) and they're very expensive. You end up paying through the nose for a stone that just doesn't last (speaking from experience here). Most coarse stones are similarly soft and dishing-prone, and we can discuss why that must be the case if you want, but other brands give you a LOT more stone to start with such that it doesn't matter as much.

The Shapton 320 is also sort of an odd duck. It's pretty hard for such a coarse stone (very much the opposite of the glass 500s in that respect), which means that it doesn't dish very quickly but it also cuts slowly when confronted with tougher steels. It's fine on HCS though.

In my experience Shaptons are strongest in the mid grits (1K-5K), where they offer a nice combination of speed and dish resistance.

[allen long]

Most of wood work is presenting a sharp edge to wood. The sharper the edge the more polished the wood. Get the right shape behind the edge and the edge is stronger. Diamond plates to flatten your stones YES!
Bought a custom knife in Elmax with proper heat treatment recently just to see how it is. The maker leaves you to do the final finish on the edge. By the time I finished I had re-defined sharp in my head, what a steel! The smallest touch cuts. I should add it's very tough, it took a while.
So how much steel do we get through in our lives in all our tools; 1", 2",3"....6"?


I think some of you members need a good dose of reality into what was being achieved by those craftsmen of days gone by. No fancy pants metal planes emblazoned with the LN or LV logo were being used, nor were they using exotic steel alloys within their blades, nor were they using high tech ceramic sharpening stones. And guess what, they were more than likely achieving better results within their woodwork than most of you could even dream of.

Dave, my apologies for being so forthright, but if its has taken you 40yrs within your craft to finally learn how to achieve a sharp edge on your tools, it wasn't the fault of sharpening stones you were using.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woode%20try%20plane%20refurbishment/_DSC0377_zpstv2razyp.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woode%20try%20plane%20refurbishment/_DSC0377_zpstv2razyp.jpg.html)

Stewie;

Stewie,

What exactly was the purpose of your post? What did you think such an arrogant diatribe accomplishes? It certainly doesn't make you appear more knowledgeable. Or helpful. It certainly doesn't foster civility when someone was simply expressing an "Ah Ha" or eureka moment in what was likely meant as a bit tongue and cheek. I enjoyed the Op. I simply do not understand the motivation behind such a rude post. Just saying that you are just being direct does not make it less rude. It can have a chilling effect on those who might want to post smething fun or interesting, but are more timid than some of us and are afraid to be shut down by some of the more domineering members of the forum.

[Stewie Simpson]

Allen; I have listened intently to the high volume of recommendations from forum members suggesting the need to purchase the latest LN or LV tool to improve your woodwork.

I have listened intently to the high volume of recommendations from forum members suggesting you need to fit the latest exotic alloy blade to your hand plane to improve your woodwork.

I have listened intently to the high volume of recommendations from forum members suggesting the need to switch to ceramic stones to make it easier to sharpen you blades.

And I will continue to forward my own recommendations that there is little need to make to make those changes.

I have said my piece, and will make no further comment on this thread.

regards Stewie;

[Brian Holcombe]

If you want to stay with Shapton then the 1000 is a great stone. It arguably "made" their reputation in the US.

IMO the 500 Shapton glass stones are not cost-effective, because they dish fast, they're very thin (5 or 10 mm) and they're very expensive. You end up paying through the nose for a stone that just doesn't last (speaking from experience here). Most coarse stones are similarly soft and dishing-prone, and we can discuss why that must be the case if you want, but other brands give you a LOT more stone to start with such that it doesn't matter as much.

The Shapton 320 is also sort of an odd duck. It's pretty hard for such a coarse stone (very much the opposite of the glass 500s in that respect), which means that it doesn't dish very quickly but it also cuts slowly when confronted with tougher steels. It's fine on HCS though.

In my experience Shaptons are strongest in the mid grits (1K-5K), where they offer a nice combination of speed and dish resistance.

Patrick, curious what are your thoughts on the 1k Shapton vs 1k Chosera? I use the 1k cho and enjoy the feeling of the stone but find it dishes quickly.

At Kez this year a lot if guys were using the Shapton 5k, I think a laminated iron really helps that stone to perform. I am also considering that to replace my cho 3k.

I have the Snow White 8k and I like that stone, stays flat enough that I can leap to naturals without issue.

[Dave Zellers]

Stewie-
Well that would be a shame. I am enjoying this thread I started. I appreciate the support from others as I begin this process and at the same time I like the reality check you provide. It's not like I'm breaking new ground here. I'm at the end of a long line of modern woodworkers who have gotten religion regarding sharpening. Big woop. But it's fun for me and more than that it ups my game as I still do this professionally.
Love your avatar and I'd be happy to sit across the camp fire sharpening spears anytime.

[Dave Zellers]

Patrick, curious what are your thoughts on the 1k Shapton vs 1k Chosera? I use the 1k cho and enjoy the feeling of the stone but find it dishes quickly.

At Kez this year a lot if guys were using the Shapton 5k, I think a laminated iron really helps that stone to perform. I am also considering that to replace my cho 3k.

I have the Snow White 8k and I like that stone, stays flat enough that I can leap to naturals without issue.

Oh crap. I'm already losing my innocence. You people are dragging me down into your decadence.

I used to be a virgin....

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, curious what are your thoughts on the 1k Shapton vs 1k Chosera? I use the 1k cho and enjoy the feeling of the stone but find it dishes quickly.

I own the 1K Shapton and have only used the 1K Cho a couple times. The 1K Cho is much more to my preference because it provides tactile feedback that give you useful information about what's happening with the edge. It appears that there's no free lunch, though: In my experience hard and dish-resistant stones like the Shapton Pro 1K and the Sigma Power Hard 1K don't provide much (any?) feel. Stones that do provide good feel (Cho 1K, Bester 1200, Sigma Select II 1000, Sigma Select II 1200) tend to be softer and more dishing-prone. For that matter the diamond pastes that I use on steel plates for really nasty steels don't provide any feedback at all.

My personal favorites mid-grit synthetics are the Bester 1200 and the Sigma 1200, depending on the steel. The only reason I don't list the Cho is because their pricing offends even my sensibilities, and that's really saying something. Magnesia stones do provide a very characteristic "feel" above and beyond the feedback that I referenced above, though, so I understand why people fall in love with those stones.


At Kez this year a lot if guys were using the Shapton 5k, I think a laminated iron really helps that stone to perform. I am also considering that to replace my cho 3k.

I'd suggest borrowing one first if you can (I'd be happy to mail you mine if you want) as the 5K has a fairly unique feel even for a Shapton and can be polarizing. See comments earlier in the thread about load-up. I like it, though I like the Sigma Power 6K even more.



I have the Snow White 8k and I like that stone, stays flat enough that I can leap to naturals without issue.

Yeah, the Snow White is a nice stone, and quite a bargain by Naniwa's standards. I bought one a while back to see what everybody was so excited about, and it lived up to the hype. Great feel, fast cutting. I also bought it to try to figure out how they get results that good with such a coarse nominal particle size, but I still don't understand that.

I think that including a polisher into a discussion of dishing in mid-grit stones is potentially misleading, because it's fundamentally easier to make a dish-resistant 8K stone than it is to make a dish-resistant 1K one. Consider the following simplified mental model of how waterstones work:

In order to cut quickly a waterstone sheds worn grit. To do so the waterstone must release the surface "layer" of grit in no more time than it takes the steel to dull that layer's exposed cutting points. Because wear happens at the points, it takes (very) roughly the same amount of time for the surface layer's particles to wear out, regardless of grit, so all stones with similar abrasive and target steels will shed layers at about the same rate. The thickness of a layer is proportional to the abrasive particle size and inversely proportional to grit.

If you accept that model, then the obvious conclusion is that a #1000 stone will dish 8X as fast as a #8000 stone, all else being equal. I don't think the reality is quite that "linear", but it's certainly true that coarser stones dish faster than finer ones.

[allen long]

Stewie,

Had you written your reply to me as your first reply to this discussion, I would have been nodding my head in complete agreement. As opposed to your first post that had me shaking my head thinking why would anyone take anything seriously from such a self-important bag of wind. Your reply to me was cogent, civil, and still direct without being insulting. Exactly the kind of commentary that benefits us all.

All of us have our easy buttons that can trigger us to respond perhaps a lititle more harshly that we would like. My compliments for your response to me and best wishes.

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

[Bob Glenn]

I think some of you members need a good dose of reality into what was being achieved by those craftsmen of days gone by. No fancy pants metal planes emblazoned with the LN or LV logo were being used, nor were they using exotic steel alloys within their blades, nor were they using high tech ceramic sharpening stones. And guess what, they were more than likely achieving better results within their woodwork than most of you could even dream of.

Dave, my apologies for being so forthright, but if its has taken you 40yrs within your craft to finally learn how to achieve a sharp edge on your tools, it wasn't the fault of sharpening stones you were using.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woode%20try%20plane%20refurbishment/_DSC0377_zpstv2razyp.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woode%20try%20plane%20refurbishment/_DSC0377_zpstv2razyp.jpg.html)

Stewie;

Stewie, On a lighter note.......what's that little box with the slits on the back of your bench?

[Brian Holcombe]

I own the 1K Shapton and have only used the 1K Cho a couple times. The 1K Cho is much more to my preference because it provides tactile feedback that give you useful information about what's happening with the edge. It appears that there's no free lunch, though: In my experience hard and dish-resistant stones like the Shapton Pro 1K and the Sigma Power Hard 1K don't provide much (any?) feel. Stones that do provide good feel (Cho 1K, Bester 1200, Sigma Select II 1000, Sigma Select II 1200) tend to be softer and more dishing-prone. For that matter the diamond pastes that I use on steel plates for really nasty steels don't provide any feedback at all.

My personal favorites mid-grit synthetics are the Bester 1200 and the Sigma 1200, depending on the steel. The only reason I don't list the Cho is because their pricing offends even my sensibilities, and that's really saying something. Magnesia stones do provide a very characteristic "feel" above and beyond the feedback that I referenced above, though, so I understand why people fall in love with those stones.



I'd suggest borrowing one first if you can (I'd be happy to mail you mine if you want) as the 5K has a fairly unique feel even for a Shapton and can be polarizing. See comments earlier in the thread about load-up. I like it, though I like the Sigma Power 6K even more.



Yeah, the Snow White is a nice stone, and quite a bargain by Naniwa's standards. I bought one a while back to see what everybody was so excited about, and it lived up to the hype. Great feel, fast cutting. I also bought it to try to figure out how they get results that good with such a coarse nominal particle size, but I still don't understand that.

I think that including a polisher into a discussion of dishing in mid-grit stones is potentially misleading, because it's fundamentally easier to make a dish-resistant 8K stone than it is to make a dish-resistant 1K one. Consider the following simplified mental model of how waterstones work:

In order to cut quickly a waterstone sheds worn grit. To do so the waterstone must release the surface "layer" of grit in no more time than it takes the steel to dull that layer's exposed cutting points. Because wear happens at the points, it takes (very) roughly the same amount of time for the surface layer's particles to wear out, regardless of grit, so all stones with similar abrasive and target steels will shed layers at about the same rate. The thickness of a layer is proportional to the abrasive particle size and inversely proportional to grit.

If you accept that model, then the obvious conclusion is that a #1000 stone will dish 8X as fast as a #8000 stone, all else being equal. I don't think the reality is quite that "linear", but it's certainly true that coarser stones dish faster than finer ones.


Thanks Patrick, I very much appreciate the detailed reply. I actually use the cho's now as my go-to for cambered edges, as even though I flatten them regularly they become dished pretty quickly. The 3k cho is a really great stone, providing a nice finish in addition to other aspects.

I may take you up on that WRT the 5k stone, thank you for your generous offer.

On a separate note;

I have a Shapton 320 stone and well..,,it's good that I do not sharpen near open windows as that stone may well take flight if that were the case, but I've avoided letting that shape my opinion of the brand, given that some of my fellow Kez contestants seemed to prefer them.

[William Fretwell]

Certainly in the western world sharpening stones were largely non shedding oil stones. When you built up a slurry (which took a while) you kept it and worked with it to add an element of polishing.
Todays most popular non shedding stones are diamond plates, these are flushed frequently to keep cutting. Clearly diamond sharpening can polish, just look at your wife's ring! It is possible then to just use diamonds all the way through but we don't do that.
Water stones make the 'polishing' easier and faster but at a higher cost. Time is money so pick one.

Old craftsmen did manage to sharpen their blades, their steel was perhaps a bit softer and took longer but they did it. If they had today's sharpening systems would they say "at last I can sharpen", I doubt it. More likely they would say "great now I can spend an extra half an hour in bed" :)

[Brian Holcombe]

I use pretty much all media, different blades require it. I like oil stones in a general way, I like them quite a lot, I use them for HC steels, they stay flat (for the most part) with light touchup now and again.

Natural water stones, they basically cut anything that an oil stone will cut, and I use those as finishers. I've chosen my tool steel, for the most part, with natural stones in mind.

Ceramic water stones, great for cutting alloyed steels and HC steels very quickly. As voiced in my above complaint, they go out of flat far quicker than natural stones or oil stones (natural and synthetic).

Diamonds, especially diamond paste, fantastic abrasive which cuts incredibly fast. They load up into the soft iron on laminated blades, and so I do not use them beyond grinding the handful of full steel blades that I have.

No need to discard the old for the new, or debate which has merit and which does not. Learn to use and put into use all of the above as there are many situations in which you'll find you have the best abrasive for the need at hand.

[Jim Koepke]

Currently all the water in my shop is frozen. If something needs to be sharpened it has to be done on oilstones.

Not sure my wife would put up with me bringing my water stones in the house to touch up a few blades.

jtk

[paul cottingham]

I think some of you members need a good dose of reality into what was being achieved by those craftsmen of days gone by. No fancy pants metal planes emblazoned with the LN or LV logo were being used, nor were they using exotic steel alloys within their blades, nor were they using high tech ceramic sharpening stones. And guess what, they were more than likely achieving better results within their woodwork than most of you could even dream of.

Dave, my apologies for being so forthright, but if its has taken you 40yrs within your craft to finally learn how to achieve a sharp edge on your tools, it wasn't the fault of sharpening stones you were using.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woode%20try%20plane%20refurbishment/_DSC0377_zpstv2razyp.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woode%20try%20plane%20refurbishment/_DSC0377_zpstv2razyp.jpg.html)

Stewie;

The problem, of course, is that comments like this can make people gun shy about sharing their own successes. I use a Viel belt grinder for initial shaping and grinding, and polish on a 10,000 Japanese stone. I get great edges. I would love to do it using a more traditional way, but

1) why? It works well. And
2) if I use stones, my hands are screwed for the rest of the day, and most of the next.

Of course, I always hesitate to post anything like this. I mean, who uses belt grinders to sharpen?

[Stu Gillard]

Stewie, On a lighter note.......what's that little box with the slits on the back of your bench?

That's a twin outlet of 240 volt Aussie power.

[Jim Koepke]

That's a twin outlet of 240 volt Aussie power.

I like the switches on the outlets that seems to be the rule for British and Aussie electrical wiring.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

I like the switches on the outlets that seems to be the rule for British and Aussie electrical wiring.

jtk
Why, you'd just, switch them on anyway. They had them in Ireland and I thought they were annoying.

[Rich Riddle]

If it only takes forty years to learn the trick, I only have a couple more decades in the hobby to learn the skill. Glad you like your stones as they are highly regarded in the sharpening arena. You give us all hope.

[Dave Zellers]

If it only takes forty years to learn the trick, I only have a couple more decades in the hobby to learn the skill. Glad you like your stones as they are highly regarded in the sharpening arena. You give us all hope.
Maybe it just took me forty years to get the stones to buy the stones ... :cool:

[William Fretwell]

That's because they have real electricity in them, the more substantial plug is harder to plug in and out making the switch convenient.

[Patrick Chase]

On a separate note;

I have a Shapton 320 stone and well..,,it's good that I do not sharpen near open windows as that stone may well take flight if that were the case, but I've avoided letting that shape my opinion of the brand, given that some of my fellow Kez contestants seemed to prefer them.

Yeah, the 320 isn't my favorite stone either. As I said in another reply to the OP, that's a *very* hard stone for such a coarse grit, and I'm not much enamored of the resulting feel and lack of speed on higher-alloy steels. The interesting thing is that the #220 is almost the opposite. Shapton appear to have made them that way on purpose though, as they recommend (https://www.fine-tools.com/shapton-instructions.html) the #220 for HSS and the #320 for others (scroll to the bottom of the chart under "Other tools and special steels").

Shaptons are very different from most other waterstones in that they're basically blocks of molded plastic mixed with abrasive (a.k.a. "resinoid"). They're not porous beyond the immediate surface layer, which is both a strength ("splash and go") and a weakness (weird feel compared clay, ceramic, or magnesia synthetics or JNats). I don't find it surprising that competent woodworkers have wildly divergent opinions about them, as they're pretty nontraditional and polarizing by nature.

[Jim Koepke]

Why, you'd just, switch them on anyway. They had them in Ireland and I thought they were annoying.

One of the lamps in my shop doesn't have a switch on the fixture, only a plug. A switch on the outlet would be handy for such a thing.

Like so many things in life, one person's enhancement is another's annoyance.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

Jim; you can add 240v to that growing list of differences.

Stewie;

[Ray Selinger]

Paul, I do,they are great for stropping if you add a reverse as well.

[Andy Nichols]

Been able to sharpen for almost as long as I can remember, grew up on a farm, butchered our own animals, and woodworking was just part of life.

Used Arkansas stones most of my life and still use them for knifes, but switched to a corse/300 fine/1000 diamond plate for initial burr then Shapton glass up to 16000.

My plane sharpening went through several grits of stone usually 1000, 4000, 8000, then 16000....took me about 7 to 10 minutes from start to using the plane again (freehand sharpening)

However in a recent week long class with Rob Cosman we tried something new, with plane blades and chisels that have already had the back of the blades prepared. We used only the 1000 diamond plate and then 16000 Shapton, spending less than 20 seconds on each stone.

Now it takes me longer to take the plane apart than to sharpen the iron, 1000 to 16000 freehand was truly an aha! Moment for me.

Regards,
Andy
-- mos maiorum

[george wilson]

I think I got my start at a very early age. When I grew up on light houses,thee were only adults around. I naturally learned things from watching them work. I can't recall when I could not get my pocket knife sharp.

[Dave Zellers]

Yes- Cosman has a video on that 1K to 16K idea.

[Ryan Jones]

The thing with sharpening, is that it's not all that hard. But it DOES take practice.

I'd suggest getting a good honing guide like the Veritas Sharpening Honing Guide MK II... once you figure out the process and become proficient with that honing jig, you can then start to practice sharpening by freehand. Freehand, for me, gets things scary sharp... the guide is great, but it's those little imperfections in your angle that gets a microbevel crazy sharp (at least for me.)

It doesn't happen overnight. But if you continue to use planes, chisels, you'll end up sharpening a few times a night... get about 20 sharpening sessions under your belt, and your skill will start to hit that learning curve.

[paul cottingham]

Paul, I do,they are great for stropping if you add a reverse as well.

Havent been able to figure out how. Otherwise I'd be all over that.

[William Fretwell]

I usually jump from 800 to 8K as I found the 4K seemed to stutter. Twenty strokes on leather & green compound work well to finish. It depends on the work too. When hogging off with the jack plane and it slows you just want to get back to it quickly. When you finish plane a surface, sharpening takes much longer. If I use the diamond plate at 1000x I'm better off to go back to 800x water stone before stepping up to 8k. When you have made a new strop and washed & wiped the blade dry you see how much 'grey' comes off on that first stroke on the strop you get an idea how useful it is.

[Patrick Chase]

When you have made a new strop and washed & wiped the blade dry you see how much 'grey' comes off on that first stroke on the strop you get an idea how useful it is.

Except of course that mirror finish is absolutely meaningless as an indicator of edge sharpness or quality.

Mirror vs grey finish mostly has to do with the directional consistency of the scratches. The scratches have to be below a certain size for the finish to appear both smooth and mirror-like, but that size is nowhere near as small as most people think. I've seen both mirror-like reflections from (what I consider to be) roughly finished tools, and a completely matte appearances from tools with very fine finishes. It depends on the sharpening medium, technique, and the steel.

The obvious example of a matte finish that's nonetheless extremely fine/smooth is what LV puts on the backs of their chisels and plane blades. Those have a surface roughness spec of 16 millionths of an inch, which corresponds to ~16000 grit. They are VERY finely finished, and yet completely matte grey. The reason they are matte grey is because they're finished on a lapping machine with effectively randomized directionality. One of the dumber things you can do to one of those tools is to lap it to a mirror finish, because unless you really understand what you're doing whatever you create will almost certainly be worse than the finish it came with.

[Dave Zellers]

Having just re read this thread from start to finish I just want to thank all who shared their knowledge and there is a lot of knowledge there!

I have saved the thread and I'm sure Ill be referring to it as I learn this art as well as older threads that are hiding in the archives.

[Stewie Simpson]

Been able to sharpen for almost as long as I can remember, grew up on a farm, butchered our own animals, and woodworking was just part of life.

Used Arkansas stones most of my life and still use them for knifes, but switched to a corse/300 fine/1000 diamond plate for initial burr then Shapton glass up to 16000.

My plane sharpening went through several grits of stone usually 1000, 4000, 8000, then 16000....took me about 7 to 10 minutes from start to using the plane again (freehand sharpening)

However in a recent week long class with Rob Cosman we tried something new, with plane blades and chisels that have already had the back of the blades prepared. We used only the 1000 diamond plate and then 16000 Shapton, spending less than 20 seconds on each stone.

Now it takes me longer to take the plane apart than to sharpen the iron, 1000 to 16000 freehand was truly an aha! Moment for me.

Regards,
Andy
-- mos maiorum

Mr Cosman is certainly a very shrewd business man when it comes to promoting his financial interests in WoodRiver and Woodcraft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbInhTxtRcw

[Dave Zellers]

Yes he is. But so what. More power to him, but even I roll my eyes at the "Cosman angle trainer".

Seriously tho, somebody needs to buy him a pair of long pants.

[Stewie Simpson]

Dave; I agree with you. He has done very well for himself since his departure from LV. The Cosman Angle Trainer is certainly a little over the top, but I suppose you do what you need do to keep your high profile ticking along.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Dave; I agree with you. He has done very well for himself since his departure from LV. The Cosman Angle Trainer is certainly a little over the top, but I suppose you do what you need do to keep your high profile ticking along.

Stewie;

Cosman was the Canadian distributor for LN. AFAIK he had no relationship with LV.

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks Patrick.

[Andy Nichols]

Rob has gone way above and beyond with his help of wounded veterans, time, money, effort, open to U.S. Canada, Australia, Great Britain etc.....

He is a "Hero" in my book for these efforts, a lot of people talk about help/supporting wounded/disabled veterans, most do it by only saying "Thank You".

There are high profile, non profit veteran organizations, with lots of donations, have done much less.

Will say that Rob is the type of personality, that one really doesn't get to know in 30 min YouTube blurbs, or even a short Woodcraft class. He is not at all like his "stage persona" even though there's nothing wrong with that.

I for one wish there were more people like Rob, he has taken out a full page ad in an upcoming issue of FWW about his wounded veterans efforts, hope he gets a lot of support.

The woodworking community is generally an outstanding group of individuals, I'm positive many will set up. Woodnet's Christmas auction is another fine example of woodworkers helping others, wider focus, but just as impressive.


They are all in my prayers for their efforts, they get my personal request for God to bless them.....




Best Regards,
Andy
-- mos maiorum

[William Fretwell]

In my case the 'grey' is on the strop not the tool! The edge does get sharper as evidenced by touching it. However wonderful the LV grey back finish is, after sharpening the edge there is a burr to remove necessitating a small movement of the flat back on your highest grit stone. I suppose there is an argument for sharpening to a very fine grit to minimise this burr to the point where it's removal is trivial.
Come to think of it I believe that is what Barr Quarton achieves on his chisels when he finishes them on super fine 15K natural stone! He ends up with no burr.
The price of his final stone is horrible so I never gave it more thought! As an aside; to scratch stainless steel the scratches only have to be 1/4 the wavelength of light to be visible.

[Brian Holcombe]

95% of sharpening is making sure that burr is gone, entirely. I would imagine most people who feel they aren't making a sharp edge are simply not doing a good enough job of taking off the burr.

This is why Japanese tap-out their blades, it simply makes removing the burr a breeze.

[Dave Zellers]

What does that mean- "tap-out" a blade?

[Patrick Chase]

What does that mean- "tap-out" a blade?

If you don't know then you don't want to know. This is one case where ignorance is truly bliss.

If you really must know, it's how Western woodworkers ruin their expensive Japanese tools (http://giantcypress.net/post/5446904360/tap-tap-revenge).

[Dave Zellers]

If you don't know then you don't want to know. This is one case where ignorance is truly bliss.

If you really must know, it's how Western woodworkers ruin their expensive Japanese tools (http://giantcypress.net/post/5446904360/tap-tap-revenge).

Now I'm DYING to know! :eek:

Now to click on the link...

[Patrick Chase]

Now I'm DYING to know! :eek:

Now to click on the link...

The link is actually to somebody who appears to be able to do a decent job of it (I'm sure Brian can opine more authoritatively as to his worthiness). A typical neophyte, not so much.

EDIT: Brian appears to know Wilbur Pan :-)

[Dave Zellers]

Wow.I think the porn reference at the end is interesting and helps me understand the level we're dealing with here.
Now the ignorant questions:

He is tapping on a round anvil to flatten the iron? Is it really flattening it or does it create a tiny arc that is canceled out by the honing? (making the honing easier)

How does tapping the bevel at the point of contact on the curved anvil change the shape of the iron?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. I will definitely have to re-read that again.

And what is with the bevels on the sides of the iron? Is that specific to the plane he is using?

You're right, I've been defiled, but there is no turning back now. I don't see myself ever doing that but I'm still intrigued by the idea that others do it with great result.

[Allan Hill]

To the OP:
Congrats to you on discovering "sharp". It really does help when you're using hand tools. Sharper edges stay sharper longer, giving you more time to work your wood.

To Stewie:
Have we forgotten that in ancient times carpenters were not cabinetmakers? They took had different standards of sharp. Have we forgotten that in the days of old, they had oil stones in Europe and waterstones in Asia? And both had leather or cloth strops? Have we forgotten that in days of old, steel was just plain carbon or high carbon steel? No fancy alloys, tool steels, or other challenging metallurgy to sharpen. I suspect there were similar epiphanies in the days of old when a carpenter borrowed the oil stone of his cabinetmaker buddy and said, "Wow!"

I'm not one to tout the latest and greatest of any new technology. I don't fault the ones who have the means or curiosity to try them out. I'd point out that the newer stones are often more affordable than the natural stones available back then. A Sigma Power II 13,000 grit stone is around $115 from Lee Valley. A natural Japanese waterstone of equivalent grit is nearly impossible to find, and can run easily into 4 figures for the same size stone. A Dan's Hard Black Arkansas stone from LV is $122. But, I know from experience, using a Dan's Hard Arkansas will take me at least 5x longer to get a decent edge on a D2 steel mortise pigsticker.

Just saying, history should be taken in context.

[Ray Selinger]

Stewie, I see where you are coming from. You have to realize that not all areas have the same level of ,shall we say, advancement. We were in the NT visiting a couple. He showed me his prized collection of old wood working tools. There wasn't many and none special. That's northern Australia. I'm from BC Canada, not an area rich in old tools and I have 10x.

I would suggest those who say grandfather did great work take a Norton silicon carbide combination oil stone and sharpen a blunted plane iron. Remember that's all, most joiners had for a sharpening stone. I've seen a number of old joiners' tool boxes. I never heard of a fine India, or an Arkansas until Lee Valley's first catalogue and I had read Popular Science since 1960 as boy thanks to Granny's Christmas gifts. By the '70s I was a professional carpenter, also I have weakness for tools. Rich Americans might have heard of them, but not us poor Canucks. Then try to use the plane. It will work, I've done it. But it was a wow moment when I saved up and got a white Hard Arkansas. My Imanishi stones go beyond that.

[Stewie Simpson]

Allan; have you forgotten that most craftsmen in those earlier days underwent an apprenticeship within their craft and would be taught within that 1st and 2nd year of their apprenticeship how to properly sharpen and maintain their hand tools. That the level of trade training was strictly reinforced by their associated unions (especially within the UK, Australia, and parts of Western Europe) to insure the quality of craftsmen taken through that training continually met the appropriate standard. That those entering the trade were not just given the necessary training to be just a Carpenter, but dual training as a Carpenter and Joiner to encompass greater value and flexibility to their employers. Unlike the system that's currently been used in the USA. That the Cabinet Maker did not fall within the general scope of training outlined by that of a Carpenter and Joiner, and as such received their own specialized scope of training. That the market for woodwork hand tools is not solely directed towards the needs of the qualified craftsmen, but more in tuned with the growing demand by those that have not experienced any traditional training, and are in general not wanting to spend the required time to learn how to develop an efficient sharpening regime, or fettle their own tools to fine tune,
but more inclined in wanting their tools to work straight out of the box, and their blades to be harder and harder in abrasive resistance so that they don't need to stop and spend that time learning how to be more proficient within their sharpening technique, that the sharpening stones that once catered for needs of trained craftsmen are no longer good enough for those that choose to only spend their days off to experience wood craft, and because of there push for harder and harder steel alloys within their blades, they are being forced onto using ceramic stones by these tool manufacturers because the stones of days gone by just don't cut the mustard. That while many may consider there's an upside to using harder alloy steels, there is also a downside, but lets not go there as its hardly worthwhile explaining what those deficiencies are. Yes Allan, history can provide us with a lot of information if you are wanting to spend the time and think about it.

regards Stewie;

[Dave Zellers]

Unlike the system that's currently been used in the USA.

"System?" What is this system you speak of?
We got no stinkin "System". :rolleyes:

[Stewie Simpson]

Time for me to back out of this thread again gentlemen. I have a bad feeling that further posts are going to start heating up, and that's not overly fair on the OP.

regards Stewie;

[Brian Holcombe]

If you don't know then you don't want to know. This is one case where ignorance is truly bliss.

If you really must know, it's how Western woodworkers ruin their expensive Japanese tools (http://giantcypress.net/post/5446904360/tap-tap-revenge).

In the words of Homer Simpson, 'it is both the cause of, and solution to all of our problems', though I'm certain he wasn't referring to tapping out.

I've cracked one blade during tapping out (ura-dashi) and was happy to find out that I wasn't actually the root cause, but simply the unsuspecting victim. The trouble with tapping out is that if there is a flaw in the weld...you find it :D. I ground away 3/4" of hard steel (on a dry grinder) to remove a giant section of blade that problematic. Luckily the rest of the blade seems to be good. I plan to post photos as it is sort of an extreme situation.


The link is actually to somebody who appears to be able to do a decent job of it (I'm sure Brian can opine more authoritatively as to his worthiness). A typical neophyte, not so much.

EDIT: Brian appears to know Wilbur Pan :-)

Wilbur and I recently drove up to Kez together so we had plenty of time to BS about Japanese tools and life in general, he's very knowledgeable about Japanese tools and overall a very good person. He is showing an extreme example because he dropped the blade, so it will be a little different from regular maintenance tapping out. When you have to restore the blade to that degree (after dropping it) it's a serious amount of work.

Here is a regular maintenance tapping out, I'm showing stages. The lower left chisel is immediately after I've completed tapping out, the immediate area right behind the edge is more polished looking, because it is actually standing slightly proud of the rest of the back. This blends to form the look of the chisel on the right over a few sessions.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/img_5582.jpg

I'm also changing the bevel angle (steeper), I don't get in a hurry to grind away expensive steel and so I will simply use the chisels and grind them at the steeper bevel until they eventually become fully bevels again. I'm showing that here;

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/img_5581.jpg

Extreme case tapping out. This is the blade I mentioned above;

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/img_5595.jpg

And the back with the flat near completely removed;

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/img_5596.jpg

Believe it or not the crack still remained, I had to grind away another 1/8" after that point.

And here is the back, nearly restored. Working on the 8k snow white stone, as the steel is so hard that an Ark stone can't actually cut it. I would normally just ask for a replacement, and the seller would normally offer one, but this blade is 30-40 years old and the maker is long gone (the brand still remains, but this is an older smith). The steel is extremely hard, the hardest I have encountered and so it's made the process all the more difficult but should be worth it.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/img_5597.jpg



Wow.I think the porn reference at the end is interesting and helps me understand the level we're dealing with here.
Now the ignorant questions:

He is tapping on a round anvil to flatten the iron? Is it really flattening it or does it create a tiny arc that is canceled out by the honing? (making the honing easier)

How does tapping the bevel at the point of contact on the curved anvil change the shape of the iron?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. I will definitely have to re-read that again.

And what is with the bevels on the sides of the iron? Is that specific to the plane he is using?

You're right, I've been defiled, but there is no turning back now. I don't see myself ever doing that but I'm still intrigued by the idea that others do it with great result.

Japanese irons are laminated, hard steel to soft iron. Tapping out the back, ura-dashi, is a process in which one expands the iron by tapping on it. The process of expanding the iron curls the hard steel ever so slightly to push the leading edge of the hard steel to stand proud of the rest of the back. When the back is then 'flattened' it ensures that the area immediately behind the edge will be polished, rather than that of the remainder of the back.

[Warren Mickley]

Have we forgotten that in ancient times carpenters were not cabinetmakers? They took had different standards of sharp. Have we forgotten that in the days of old, they had oil stones in Europe and waterstones in Asia?



Workers in Europe have had both water stones and oil stones for millennia. It sounds like you have never done any research on this subject.

[Allan Hill]

Workers in Europe have had both water stones and oil stones for millennia. It sounds like you have never done any research on this subject.

Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean I didn't know that. My point is still valid.

[Dave Zellers]

Brian- thanks for that detailed explanation. I get it now- it actually makes sense to me.

But wow, that's pretty amazing.

[William Fretwell]

Giving this more thought, especially the idea you only flatten the back of a western plane blade once. My bevel up blades at 38 degrees develop a roughness on the back directly behind the edge. This is clearly visible when working hardwoods. It means you need to flatten the back on a fine stone each time you sharpen the blade for a very fine edge. My bevel down blades function just with sharpening the bevel and burr removal on the flat.
The conclusion; bevel up blades are more work, not just because they are thicker but the backs do require constant attention.
Any one else reached the same conclusion?

I've seen the odd post with people using a ruler trick to add a small micro bevel to the back of the bevel up blade. Is this an attempt to remove the 'rough edge' I've described? It does seem counter productive as it would seem to encourage more 'roughness' to develop.

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian- thanks for that detailed explanation. I get it now- it actually makes sense to me.

But wow, that's pretty amazing.

Anytime! It was a daunting process when I first got into Japanese tools, but I've since found it enjoyable.

[William Fretwell]

Having no Japanese plane blades does this mean they expect to work both sides of the blade routinely? Given the 'roughness' on my bevel up blades behind the edge on the flat that requires work are we fooling ourselves with the big flat back?
I can see flattening a chisel back once but my bevel up plane blade backs do require constant attention and the big flat back makes that more difficult.
So if a Japanese plane is in my future do I go Jack or Smoother?

[Brian Holcombe]

Hira Kanna (smoother) would be the place most people start, also where most see the majority of the benefit. The other parts of your post, I sort understand what you're saying, but a bit confused?

[William Fretwell]

Lets see if I can clarify a bit. Both sides of an edge should be 'flat' at the very edge for optimal cutting. It was suggested that some of LV backs are remarkably flat at purchase (grey flat) and that 'polishing' will be detrimental. This ties in with the convention of finishing the back of a plane blade once. My bevel down blades fit this model but my bevel up blades do not, they develop a pitting roughness immediately behind the edge on the flat side. This detracts from the achievable edge.

Maintaining the flat side frequently becomes essential beyond burr removal. This is a lot of work due to the large area to maintain.

I wonder if others have this issue with bevel up (38 degree) blades. I also wonder if the Japanese plane blade with it's much smaller back area is a solution to this issue.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm not so certain that it is a solution to that, but I've enjoyed the fact that there is a hollow and an iron which can be worked by tapping out rather than having to work the back to the degree required to flatten many of my western plane blades.

I would imagine one fix is to grind the edge back at each honing (bevel up)

I always hone away the wear bevel, in my case I'm usually doing so with a 1k stone.

[David Eisenhauer]

I'm not sure I understand something William - Are you saying that it is your belief that the non bevel side of BD irons basically only require work on a stone once and then remain in a useable shape from that point on? And that the non bevel sides of your our BU irons require work every sharpening session due to some noticed pitting roughness? I have always worked the non bevel side (small portion near to the cutting edge only) every sharpening session on all (BD or BU) of my plane irons, but then again I have never looked at any blade through any type of magnification so I could be all wrong.

[Pat Barry]

I'm not so certain that it is a solution to that, but I've enjoyed the fact that there is a hollow and an iron which can be worked by tapping out rather than having to work the back to the degree required to flatten many of my western plane blades.

I would imagine one fix is to grind the edge back at each honing (bevel up)

I always hone away the wear bevel, in my case I'm usually doing so with a 1k stone.
Hi Brian, I don't see any advantage to the tapping out process. I do however see the potential advantage of a hollow back. It seems the tapping out is a process invented from the necessity dictated by the hollow back. Certainly, if there were no hollow back then there would be no tapping out. Tapping out also seems very tedious and finicky and much more difficult than honing the bevel and back alone. certainly some western users would have invented the same process themselves if it were advantageous. God only knows how many forum threads would have been spawned by the tapping method if it did exist for western tools. Perhaps there are as many tapping out threads as sharpening threads on Japanese forums??

[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Brian, I don't see any advantage to the tapping out process. I do however see the potential advantage of a hollow back. It seems the tapping out is a process invented from the necessity dictated by the hollow back. Certainly, if there were no hollow back then there would be no tapping out. Tapping out also seems very tedious and finicky and much more difficult than honing the bevel and back alone. certainly some western users would have invented the same process themselves if it were advantageous. God only knows how many forum threads would have been spawned by the tapping method if it did exist for western tools. Perhaps there are as many tapping out threads as sharpening threads on Japanese forums??

Hi Pat, They're part and parcel, so can't have one without the other. If western blades were hardened to the same degree, they would need also be laminated to soft iron to support the edge and a hollow would need to be cut to allow one to back to be flattened with success, so it is not simple enough to conclude that because western blades aren't done that way that it is unnecessary since western blades do not share the same characteristics entirely.

One problem aside, owed to a very curious circumstance, but I've tapped out practically every Japanese tool in my shop so once you have the process down it's not so easy to fail.

It's a fairly regular topic on Japanese tool forums.

[Stewie Simpson]

I tend to agree with William on the difference in wear patterns between a Bu and a Bd plane iron. That the leading primary surface of the iron will dominate within nominal wear.

This could no doubt be confirmed by someone prepared to spend the time to undertake an in-depth analysis on the difference in wear patterns between to the 2 types of plane iron set ups.

If one were to just focus on Bd planes irons, there is also scope to consider that the bed angle itself also has some primary impact on wear patterns.

One could also consider with regards the use of double irons, that the time difference within wear can also be tied to how close the front edge of the cap iron is set from the leading edge of the cutting iron.

Not something I would be overly keen to spend the time on, but I can think of a couple of guys that might take it on.

Patrick or Kees; an opportunity has arisen for an in-depth analysis by a Mech Engineer.

regards Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

In the words of Homer Simpson, 'it is both the cause of, and solution to all of our problems', though I'm certain he wasn't referring to tapping out.

He was referring to Duff Beer, if memory serves.

I hear that tapping out is like pool - you're better at it (in your own mind at least) with a couple sheets to the wind.

[Patrick Chase]

Lets see if I can clarify a bit. Both sides of an edge should be 'flat' at the very edge for optimal cutting. It was suggested that some of LV backs are remarkably flat at purchase (grey flat) and that 'polishing' will be detrimental.

I said that polishing for the sole purpose of achieving a mirror finish would likely be detrimental. If you've got a serious wear bevel as you describe below then that's a different matter - the perfect grey finish is gone anyway at that point, so you have to do *something*.


This ties in with the convention of finishing the back of a plane blade once. My bevel down blades fit this model but my bevel up blades do not, they develop a pitting roughness immediately behind the edge on the flat side. This detracts from the achievable edge.

Maintaining the flat side frequently becomes essential beyond burr removal. This is a lot of work due to the large area to maintain.

It actually isn't much work, for two reasons:

1. You only need to achieve optimal finish on the part immediately behind the edge, so you don't need to maintain a large areas. Lots of people polish with pressure applied to the leading 1/2" or so, and some go further and use the "ruler trick" to focus polishing right up along the edge. Both strategies work.

2. If the blade has been flattened (or came flat as with LV) then it doesn't take much work at all to remove a bevel-up blade's wear bevel as you describe. Such bevels are O(microns) deep, and that amount of material is very easy to remove from a flat surface.

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Pat, They're part and parcel, so can't have one without the other. If western blades were hardened to the same degree, they would need also be laminated to soft iron to support the edge and a hollow would need to be cut to allow one to back to be flattened with success, so it is not simple enough to conclude that because western blades aren't done that way that it is unnecessary since western blades do not share the same characteristics entirely.

Japanese and high-alloy Western blades are more similar in operating principle than many people think. They both use super-hard but brittle cutting elements welded to a softer but tougher matrix. In both cases it creates special handling requirements. To wit:

In a Japanese blade the super-hard part is a continuous insert of high-hardness steel welded to a soft backing. As Brian says this creates a requirement for a hollow back and for special handling to maintain a flat perimeter around the hollow.

In a high-alloy Western blade the super-hard part consists of carbides mixed/welded into the matrix. Those carbides are far harder than even the tip of a Japanese blade, though they're not continuous. The resulting special handling requirement is for sharpening methods and media that can deal with the carbides.

Pick your poison :-)

[Brian Holcombe]

He was referring to Duff Beer, if memory serves.

I hear that tapping out is like pool - you're better at it (in your own mind at least) with a couple sheets to the wind.

Hehe, it was Duff Beer, I grew up with the Simpsons, so for better or worse many of their lines come to mind during the day.

The key to success (and probably also failure) is to forget what you paid for the blade before hitting it with a hammer. I would imagine most chip outs, while painful, can be restored to success, even thought they are they requiring a lot more work of the same type that just chipped the blade.

The blade I just repaired would not budge at all....then when it finally started moving it cracked right down the center. Even with very even tapping out, since it is best not to tap out one section dramatically, and typically not the aim of the work. Interesting part was that it didn't crack while I was working the blade, like would be expected, but while I was holding it and between the work, the pressure on the cutting edge must have been enormous.

It remains a bear to work with, and has been significantly harder to work than any of my other blades, while nearly as hard for some reason tend to work with ease by comparison.

[William Fretwell]

Yes David. I've not had the same issue with BD irons, beyond burr removal the flat side requires little work. My BU irons develop a distinct roughness right behind the edge on the flat side. While you can create a burr and remove it the same way the roughness detracts from the edge obtained. The plane still works of course and as it's mostly the jack plane getting hard use it may not matter.

A few days ago I planed what I thought was white oak 3" wide by 7' long, I had to reduce it 1/4" down to the level of two cherry strips glued either side. It took almost 3 hours! This was much harder than the real white oak I have been using. The roughness on the flat back was very noticeable during frequent sharpening. It reminded me why I love cherry as it planed like butter when I reached it!

[William Fretwell]

I'm not sold on the ruler trick but do work the leading 1 inch with pressure on the edge. If I take it back to 800x then up to 8k it removes the roughness. It is interesting that this happens. The bevel is lifting the wood shaving and pulling the remaining surface into the flat of the blade.

[David Eisenhauer]

You don't want anything to do with the remainder of 1,000 BF pile of pecan I have been working through lately. I have had to bring several 3/4" panels down to 1/2" - 3/8" and have not felt the need to head to the gym for any reason. As I said, I don't have any magnification available to look closely at an edge, but I always re flatten/polish the back of my irons and chisels as a matter of course when sharpening. Of course, since the original flattening brought everything flat, the back work now is basically mostly just re polishing and does not take more than 30 seconds or so, if that. It does stand to reason that the back (non bevel side) of a plane iron does not make contact with the planning surface, so that should lessen the wear to that face, but it still takes the abuse of severed wood sliding over the face on its way out of the plane.

[Brian Holcombe]

1/4"-3/8" is a hefty amount to take off, I try and keep it around 1/16", except for minor things like thin strips in which case you take 1/4" off in a minute.

I now bandsaw the stock down to +1/16", but prior to that I would handsaw it down to that. The plus, of course is that you have a 1/8" or 1/4" or whatever panel left over, which comes in handy constantly when making cabinets/furniture.

[Dave Zellers]

I've been spending a bit of everyday sharpening on the new stones and today was by far the best. BTW, is a little blood in the slurry helpful? :) It was a small cut but I never felt a thing- all of a sudden the area was turning red. After washing my hands I couldn't even locate it but going back and applying finger pressure started it again. It made me think of 'The Red Violin'. An awesome movie if you haven't seen it.

What I learned today was I probably have been applying too much pressure. Especially when flattening backs. When I backed off and let the bloody slurry do it's thing, I got completely different results. At first I thought how could this possibly do anything but then instead of creating a couple shiny spots (that may have correlated to finger position), I was getting a nice clean, even dull gray after working on the 1500 stone very much like the back of a new Lee Valley iron. It's rather surprising that such light pressure would be so effective but I guess what I was doing was squeezing out all the water and in a few seconds I was working on a dry stone on a build up of dry iron and stone waste.

Pretty encouraging. Might have taken the first step towards actually understanding what is happening while I'm rocking to and fro.

So anyhoo, I have decided to buy a 1000 grit stone to fit between the 320 and 1500. Leaning toward the Chosera that was mentioned earlier, it's more expensive than the Shapton but thicker and comes with a dressing stone. OTOH, at some point soon, the accountant (LOML) is going to start asking questions. It would also give me an experience with a different quality stone to better understand the nuances involved.

Anyway, it was another good day...