Avoiding tearout when chamfering edges

[Gene Davis]

I am putting a 1/8" chamfer on all the arrises of parts for a piece I am building in cherry. I used a simple 2-cutter RadiPlane to do edges of the legs and am getting tearout, even when carefully examining for grain direction and taking test cuts with a small plane set to cut very little, to verify direction.

Is there a better tool to be using?

[Brian Holcombe]

My chamfer plane has a chipbreaker, and it is a lifesaver for grain reversals along a chamfer. If you're setting the plane to the size, you usually don't have room to clean up tearout.

[lowell holmes]

I would try a really sharp low angle block plane. My apron plane does not get much tearout.

I went to the shop and tested my apron plane on a piece of soft white pine. By holding the plane skewed to the work, I was able to chamfer the ends without tearout.
Across the 3/4" edge, I had to be really careful to avoid tear out. You might want to try a sharp chisel to pare the short ends. Chisels are sometimes a good tool for cross grain work.
My chisels are scalpel sharp. My 1" Stanley 60 chisel is really sharp and I was able to make crossgrain shavings with it on the chamfer.

Another thought is to try a fine rasp followed by a scalpel sharp chisel.

[Jim Koepke]

My RadiPlane is seldom used these days. In my experience a regular hollow plane will do a better job without the tear out so common to my RadiPlane.

For a flat chamfer my accumulation of planes has a couple of wood bodied planes to do that or a bench plane will usually suffice.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

I think the typical issue with the Radiplane is controlling the depth of cut. I think you really have to try to take many many passes to get your result using very light pressure and try not to get there in a single pass or even just a few passes.

[lowell holmes]

I went back to the shop and found a scrap of 1x4 cherry. It is good quality and and seasoned. I was able to 45 degree chamfer end grain using slicing cuts. I was able to create a curl with it, taking light cuts. I did not use a plane.
I was able to create something of a continuous shaving that curled. You have to slice the wood using strokes that move up and forward at the same time. I had no problem chamfering the end grain.
It is all in the technique.

I suggest you try it on a scrap and you will see what I'm talking about. Maybe Jim Koepke can check my findings. The chisel I used is a 1" Stanley 60 yellow handled chisel from the borg.
I find these chisels to have good metal. I found the dimensions of the Stanley 60 aided in the control for the cut.

I have LN chisles. I'm sure the 1" LN chisel will make the same cut. The dimensions of the Stanley 60 made it my choice for this action.

Again, the chisel has to be extremely sharp.

An after thought, you may be able to clean up the chamfers you have made using the technique I described here.

A side light here, this made an entertaining afternoon for what was a drag before I had a task to do.:)

[Jim Koepke]

If one is good with a chisel, it can create a good chamfer. It is easy for the chisel to get away from the user, so stay focused on the work.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I have changed my mind. I pulled out a plane I don't use much. It is Lie Nielsen 140, a brass skewed iron plane,then chamfered the end grain flawlessly. It, like all of my edges is drop dead sharp. For some reason, I use my Lie Nielsen 60 1/2 more then the 140. A reminder, the board I chamfered is cherry.

[Derek Cohen]

I am putting a 1/8" chamfer on all the arrises of parts for a piece I am building in cherry. I used a simple 2-cutter RadiPlane to do edges of the legs and am getting tearout, even when carefully examining for grain direction and taking test cuts with a small plane set to cut very little, to verify direction.

Is there a better tool to be using?

The only time I use a low cutting angle for arrises is when planing across the grain. With-grain edges are rarely only with-grain and often involved reverse grain. This makes the edges vulnerable to tearout as there is little mass to support the chip.

One way to plane with- grain edges is to take a slicing cut by angling the plane. A more reliable method is to use a plane with a higher cutting angle. A standard angle block plane (such as a LN #103) or a high angle small smoother (such as a HNT Gordon or Mujinfang 60 degree small smoother). The latter is the most reliable and best performer.

I prefer small, block plane size planes over larger smoothers from #3 up as they may be used in one hand and conform better to curves.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Cherry (Prunus serotina) is quite vulnerable to tearout on the radial surface. So you could do three edges of a leg without any trouble and then have one that is radial and makes a mess. Just a few degrees tilt from the radial surface makes a big difference.

A radiplane is not a tool for fine work. I have used a bench plane for chamfering like this since I was a boy.

[Matt Evans]

I like using a spokeshave held at a skew. . .If its a large chamfer I sometimes use a drawknife.

[lowell holmes]

Cherry (Prunus serotina) is quite vulnerable to tearout on the radial surface. So you could do three edges of a leg without any trouble and then have one that is radial and makes a mess. Just a few degrees tilt from the radial surface makes a big difference.

A radiplane is not a tool for fine work. I have used a bench plane for chamfering like this since I was a boy.

I have one and I don't use it. It produces too much tear out. It is a useless tool in my shop. It Lee Valley rounding tool works much better. I mostly use spoke shaves to round an edge.

[Gene Davis]

Thanks, Brian.

Would the Lee Valley tool work? See below. It has a chipbreaker.

[glenn bradley]

I also found the Radi-plane to be a gimmicky piece of junk. It was way too fussy for its function and a regular small block does a better job IMHO.

[lowell holmes]

Glenn,

Why don't you tell us what you really think?

OBTW, I agree with you. It is useless!

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks, Brian.

Would the Lee Valley tool work? See below. It has a chipbreaker.

I don't see a chip breaker, I recommend looking for a true mentori ganna.

[Tony Wilkins]

Thanks, Brian.

Would the Lee Valley tool work? See below. It has a chipbreaker.

It shoukd work. It's basically a Japanese plane with a notch cut in dai/wooden base. That said if you need a guide there is also the Lee valley block plane (the older version). But don't assume you need a guide if any sort.

[Terry Beadle]

I use a small block plane that I made and it has a 50+ angled bed. The blade is a $10 Mujingfang I bought from Japan Woodworker. ( high carbon steel )
They take a really sharp good lasting edge. It has a sliding front mouth piece like Steve Knight's planes had/have.

No tear out.

Made from scrap cherry. After several years of use, I've tuned it only moderately and am very satisfied I've gotten my $10 worth...hoot!

Enjoy the shavings.

[Tony Wilkins]

I don't see a chip breaker, I recommend looking for a true mentori ganna.

Is this one Brian?

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=339_444&products_id=770

[Derek Cohen]

In addition to high angle planes and/or chipbreakers, it is important to read the grain. Where small planes (such as the HNT Gordon Palm Smoothing plane (http://www.hntgordon.com.au/images/shop/upload/palm_smoothing_plane.jpg)) are helpful is that they can easily be reversed when the grain direction changes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

In addition to high angle planes and/or chipbreakers, it is important to read the grain. Where small planes (such as the HNT Gordon Palm Smoothing plane (http://www.hntgordon.com.au/images/shop/upload/palm_smoothing_plane.jpg)) are helpful is that they can easily be reversed when the grain direction changes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's why I use a small spoke shave to round the edges on difficult wood. That allows me to respond to tear out.

[Brian Holcombe]

This is what I had in mind;

http://www2.odn.ne.jp/mandaraya/kakumenn-jiyuu-saika.html

Tehiba Masanori is the proprietor of that site.

[Bill Houghton]

Block plane.

[Matt Evans]

This is what I had in mind;

http://www2.odn.ne.jp/mandaraya/kakumenn-jiyuu-saika.html

Tehiba Masanori is the proprietor of that site.

Google translation of that page gave me a bit of a chuckle:
"16600 yen In stock
With the making of a popular plane "Ayaka", I made free-angle chamfering planes. Even if it is small, you can wear clippers in the arrow feathered with hammerheads.

Even if you take each side with a router or trimmer, the gloss will not rise so it will be scraped off with bean flat planes, but the narrow side is easy to grasp and can not be cleaned beautifully.

Also, as for the horse riding surface, if there is no gap in the size of the surface, gaps will be created, so this plane will demonstrate its power at such times.

In order not to reduce the number of units, it is advisable to scrape up to a finished surface in advance with a rough plan and finish it with this plane several more times in advance"

Sorta curious how big the furniture is if it has a horse riding surface. . .

[Patrick Chase]

I am putting a 1/8" chamfer on all the arrises of parts for a piece I am building in cherry. I used a simple 2-cutter RadiPlane to do edges of the legs and am getting tearout, even when carefully examining for grain direction and taking test cuts with a small plane set to cut very little, to verify direction.

Is there a better tool to be using?

Two words: Card scraper.

A finely tuned plane with a cap iron (what some call "chip breaker") would also work, but that takes some specific skills to set up and use.

What "small plane" did you use, and specifically what was its cutting angle? If it was a typical low-angle block (25 deg bevel + 12 deg bed = 37 deg total) then that's a recipe for tearout even when taking fine cuts. If you did use a low-angle plane of some sort then you might want to increase the secondary/micro-bevel such that the cutting angle is at least 45 deg and try again.

[Patrick Chase]

That's why I use a small spoke shave to round the edges on difficult wood. That allows me to respond to tear out.

I find that bevel-down spokeshaves (45 deg cutting angle) work reasonably well for that, though they lack a cap-iron and so aren't quite as capable of mitigating tearout as a bench plane. With that said I've had good luck with an LV BD shave, with the blade shimmed (with thinner ones than LV provides) to tighten the mouth to a few mils.

Bevel-up shaves as typically configured (~25 deg bevel, minimal bed angle) are horribly susceptible to tearout IMO, and not really suited for the sort of job the OP describes.

[lowell holmes]

I find that bevel-down spokeshaves (45 deg cutting angle) work reasonably well for that, though they lack a cap-iron and so aren't quite as capable of mitigating tearout as a bench plane. With that said I've had good luck with an LV BD shave, with the blade shimmed (with thinner ones than LV provides) to tighten the mouth to a few mils.

Bevel-up shaves as typically configured (~25 deg bevel, minimal bed angle) are horribly susceptible to tearout IMO, and not really suited for the sort of job the OP describes.

The shave I use is Lee Valley's Replica Cast Round Spoke Shave. I don't recall ever having tear out with it. But then I know how to use it. It also is kept razor sharp. Why would tear out
occur rounding edges? I don't recall ever doing that. I strive for translucent shavings whether using a spokeshave or plane

[Brian Holcombe]

Google translation of that page gave me a bit of a chuckle:
"16600 yen In stock
With the making of a popular plane "Ayaka", I made free-angle chamfering planes. Even if it is small, you can wear clippers in the arrow feathered with hammerheads.

Even if you take each side with a router or trimmer, the gloss will not rise so it will be scraped off with bean flat planes, but the narrow side is easy to grasp and can not be cleaned beautifully.

Also, as for the horse riding surface, if there is no gap in the size of the surface, gaps will be created, so this plane will demonstrate its power at such times.

In order not to reduce the number of units, it is advisable to scrape up to a finished surface in advance with a rough plan and finish it with this plane several more times in advance"

Sorta curious how big the furniture is if it has a horse riding surface. . .

Google translate makes some very interesting connections in Japanese, lol.

[Patrick Chase]

Why would tear out
occur rounding edges? I don't recall ever doing that. I strive for translucent shavings whether using a spokeshave or plane

For the same reasons tear out always occurs. There's nothing magical about edge-rounding that makes it any more or less susceptible than any other cut (except of course that you're working a very small area of the wood and can therefore avoid reversals "across" the cut).

[Pat Barry]

Two words: Card scraper.

A finely tuned plane with a cap iron (what some call "chip breaker") would also work, but that takes some specific skills to set up and use.

What "small plane" did you use, and specifically what was its cutting angle? If it was a typical low-angle block (25 deg bevel + 12 deg bed = 37 deg total) then that's a recipe for tearout even when taking fine cuts. If you did use a low-angle plane of some sort then you might want to increase the secondary/micro-bevel such that the cutting angle is at least 45 deg and try again.
A card scraper can break the edge and create a chamfer of course, but, it's not going to provide a consistent chamfer along the edges of the piece like a tool designed to create chamfers. That's the idea for the Radiplane. A small block plane fitted with a guide to reference off the surface and create the chamfers would work as would a tricked up spokeshave.

[Oskar Sedell]

one more vote for a plane with cap iron. I usually use a small smoother and put the cap iron really close if the grain does not behave well.

[Brian Holcombe]

The chamfer plane makes life easy. You can mark out and plane chamfers to the marks, and for large chamfers that is not a bad plan, but for many small chamfers the chamfer plane is the easiest method (in my opinion). I like to use chamfers extensively in my work, going to certain extremes to avoid stopped chamfers.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/img_4542.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/img_5526.jpg

[Gene Davis]

Well, I went ahead with a heretical solution for this project, and used a router with a chamfering bit. My RadiPlane had done some tearing out, so I made all the chamfers a little deeper with the router.

But for future, I will go and order the Lee Valley japanese plane, which they say has a cap iron. If it works I'll keep it, and if not, will send it back.

[Brian Holcombe]

A router! :eek:

:D

They do say it has a chip breaker, so I'm curious about that plane. If you would post up your thoughts when you receive it.

[Patrick Chase]

A card scraper can break the edge and create a chamfer of course, but, it's not going to provide a consistent chamfer along the edges of the piece like a tool designed to create chamfers.

Depends on the driver. I know people (not me) who can create very consistent chamfers with just a scraper.

To be clear, what I was suggesting here was to use the scraper to clean up the problem areas after roughing in the chamfer with something else. They're pretty easy to use for that IMO.

[Patrick Chase]

Sorry about the double-reply, but...


A card scraper can break the edge and create a chamfer of course, but, it's not going to provide a consistent chamfer along the edges of the piece like a tool designed to create chamfers. That's the idea for the Radiplane. A small block plane fitted with a guide to reference off the surface and create the chamfers would work as would a tricked up spokeshave.

The Radi-Plane is simply a bevel-down chamfer/radius plane, with about a 45 deg cutting angle IIRC. In principle it should work fairly well. Not as well as something with a cap-iron, but not horribly either, except...

The reason I say "in principle" is because a lot of the Radi-Plane clones on the market these days including the Woodstock and Rockler models share a common liability: Carbide-tipped blades. Carbide offers terrific edge life, but it's extremely difficult (and more like impossible if it isn't top of the line micro-grain carbide) to bring it to a truly sharp edge. If I had to bet I'd guess that the OP is having so much trouble because he's working with a not-optimally-sharp blade.