A thread to share 'workbench principles' from experience.

[Hasin Haroon]

It's been close to a year since I built my first proper workbench, a Roubo style workbench with a few modifications. When I built it I did a lot of research and took what looked like established, black and white principles without questioning them. A year later, after working on the bench a lot, I feel like I would do things a bit differently next time. Next time for me will be this summer, as I got my hands on a a large amount of 5x hard maple for a great deal. I would like to present some of the tips I would give to myself a year ago, along with the reason why - and would like to hear other people's suggestions too. Please keep in mind that I'm not looking for 'Chris Schwarz says so and so...' without any other context, I'm looking for suggestions from your personal experiences. Also, a lot of the suggestions will be very subjective, as what is important to one person isn't to the next, so please explain why you suggest what you do. Some will of course be in line with conventional wisdom, and some may be very different. So, to start off:

1. Bench width should be no wider than 22". My current bench is 24" wide and I hardly ever use the full width, and reaching to the end is a bit of a stretch and not practical when working a piece. My next bench will be around 20".

2. Softwood benches hold up perfectly fine. A year on I do have a few surface cuts from chopping, but the bench is holding up just fine without too many dents.

3. I would make a bench at the very least 6' long. Mine is a bit over 4' long and when working a long board I've found myself wishing I had the extra length to support the boards while planing.

4. Unless a tail vise is being installed, it is better to leave out the end cap. End caps get in the way when flattening bench tops.

5. I would put a dog in every dog hole. But not for the convenience or the looks - I would include a dog in every hole to prevent dust and shavings from dropping through the empty holes into the shelf below. I use my shelf to hold paste wax, mallets and bench accessories, and cleaning around them is a pain.

6. Round holes work perfectly well - just cut a small notch in the front and you're in business.

7. I would not build a split top bench again. The downsides outweigh the positives in my opinion. The planing stop is useful but easily recreated without the split top. The common use of the planing stop to hold tools results in clutter and reduces the useful width of the bench. Of course that is remedied by tidying up after every operation, but that doesn't work for someone like me. The two slabs can also make flattening a bit more difficult than otherwise. The ability to clamp a piece using the gap is not used too often and is not as useful if the bench is around 20" wide.

8. Following on from 7, I now believe simpler is better. With some holdfasts and battens you can recreate planing stops and workholding devices with ease.

9. I was quite unhappy about using a QR metal end vise as it wasn't 'traditional' but it has worked exceedingly well. It is fast, grips well, and set up with a proper chop and dogs, can perform pretty well as a wagon vise of sorts.

10. I built a leg vise using a LV tail vise screw. It works well and I can't complain about the mechanism. But the need to move the pin and slow action of the screw often has me turning to the QR vise instead. Next time I will save my pennies and spring for the classic benchcrafted leg vise. The ease of use without a pin and the quick action seems like a perfect combination.

11. I staggered my two rows of dog holes. I would not do that again, as it makes it difficult to rig up a batten planing stop.

12. A Veritas wonder dog is a wonderful cheap and easy replacement for a wagon vise. Please do correct me if you feel I'm wrong.

13. I am glad I did not go the dovetailed through tenon route, as the seasonal movement of the tenons and bench top would drive me crazy. That's more of a personal thing I realise, but my 1" tenons into the bench top have proved more than sufficient.

14. I made my bench a bit higher than what is normally recommended, but to be honest I have had no problems with planing at all. The higher bench also makes sawing operations easier.

That's all I can think of right now...will add more as I think of them. Looking forward to your thoughts!

[Frederick Skelly]

Interesting thread Hasin! You covered every point that I've had or experienced. It'll be interesting to see what others add to this. I'm sure individual experience and preference will vary with what folks build.
There are a ton of ways to hold work to the bench. I haven't tried the Veritas Wonderdog, but maybe I will.

Fred

[ken hatch]

Hasin,

My first suggestion is to keep it simple, build it fast, build it heavy, and build it cheap especially if it is a first bench. The second is expect to build several benches before you "get it right". On to some of your points:

1. While I agree it is easy to build a too wide bench the bench needs some width for stability. I've found about 610mm (24") is perfect for stability but like you wider than needed for working and ease of build. A 400mm (16") working surface works very well.
2. A asymmetric split top with a narrow "split fill" is my answer. The narrow "split fill" is not used as a stop or clamping but is very handy for working saw and square storage. My current bench has a 400mm working surface and slightly less than 200mm "off" surface.
3. Long is good if you have room.
4. Question the need for end vises, tail vices, or wagon vises. Most of the time they are used very little and not worth the cost in time, effort and money.
5. An older English built QR face vise works very well.
6. The bench is a working appliance, pinned housed tenons are easy and strong and there is little or no need for end caps....KISS is good.
7. Hold fasts, battens and stops with a face vise will take care of almost all your holding needs.
8. Think about having an apron, much easier to use than a sliding dead man or a bench jack. I love my English-French hybrid bench, it is the best of all worlds.
8. You need at least 3 benches in the shop, A higher joinery bench, a lower planing bench, and a smaller sharpening bench.

As always YMMV,
ken

[Phil Mueller]

My Roubo style bench is 24" wide x 6' long. This is as large as I can go in my space, and is proving to be adequate. Only "built in" holding are 4 dog holes for hold downs along the length of the back about 2" in, and a leg vise. Battens, planing stops held by clamps or the leg vise and simply clamping work to the workbench top have worked well for me. I also have the usual assortment of bench hooks, bird's mouth battens, shooting boards, and a moxon vise.

I don't really have any major changes I'd like to make, just a few modifications:

A row of maybe 4 or 5 dog holes about 8" or so in from the front along the length of the bench. Holding narrower pieces with a slight front bench edge overhang (for ploughing, rebating, etc) would be easier to secure with shorter battens, or no batten at all.

Shorten the leg vise chop to above the bottom stretcher. This would allow me to install one of those chain systems, and would make cleaning around the bottom of the leg much easier (currently goes to 1/4" from the floor with the parallel guide under the stretcher).

Add a removable shelf. No shelf currently, so miter box, bench hooks, etc. are stacked on the floor. Lifting over the stretcher to remove is a pain, and the removable shelf would allow for easy cleaning.

Also, I will be adding a planing stop or dog holes to the left side of my bench. I'm left handed, so the leg vise is to the right side of the bench (which I use to hold planing stops). But a number of planes are made for right handed use...which I'm able to do, but currently have no stop at the left side of the bench (really only an issue for left handed folks...those that write books on making benches all seem to be right handed).

[Karl Andersson]

My Doug Fir "Scandinavian" bench is a few years old now (pics in a gallery on my profile). My notes to myself would have been:

1. install a planing stop instead of that last dog hole; yes, I could make reusable stops that pinch in the shoulder vise, but then I have to store them and find them when needed. I use a makeshift planing stop instead of a dog and the tail vise to hold most wood to be planed now- especially when making multiple pieces.

2. Make decent bench hooks for sawing and miter shooting as part of the bench build -don't consider it done until these are done (I made one expedient one but not the second needed to hold long boards at the same level, so I'm always using various-thickness scraps in a pile at the far end).

3. My 6'6" bench was made from DF 4x4s, hand jointed and then I plowed a 1/4 in groove about 3/4 from the bottom to accept splines cut from yellow pine. I used Titebond II and about 6 bar clamps to assemble it in two "lifts" (one group of 3 boards glued to another group of 3). The glue-up was fast, easy, no cauls, and the top has held up great under heavy beating and in an unheated shed - so I recommend the splines again.

4. If building a bench with a shoulder vise, you likely will use a piece of allthread through the width of the top to resist the spreading force of the vise screw. If so, make bearing plates for the nuts at either end instead of trying to use washers; in soft DF at least, the washer will start to pull through the wood. I'm making an inset bearing plate from Maple now that the wood is chewed up - a nice steel one would have been easier when the bench was built.

5. My bench is medium weight, or even light, but doesn't move much - probably because of the wide end of the scandi style (mine is an 18" wide bench with a 36" wide shoulder vise end) so for this style at least, don't worry if it isn't 400+lbs.

6. Don't flatten the underside except where it rests on the trestle legs. The whole top will stay put with two 1/2 in lag screws if the trestles are rigid.

7. If using stretchers, wide through mortices with tusk tenons work VERY well; they stay tight and hold the base very rigid. I'm not sure if they would be as stable if I just used the 4x4 width (I doubled the ends and made the through tenons 5" bearing on a 6" shoulder).

Karl

[Robert Engel]

I agree on the width anything over 24" not necessary just adds to cost. Schwarz recently had a blog post about this.

Hasin,

I think one of the most helpful things on the forums is for share mistakes or "if I had to do over". I this helps other ww'ers much more than just sharing our work so I think you for this thread.

I didn't build a Roubo but I would like to share some of my own thoughts.

1. Tool tray: Handy to quickly get rid of stuff on the top, but then you have to look through all the shavings to find stuff. If I had to do over, I would re-think it, maybe some kind of detachable trough easily dumped out.

2. Why would an end cap intefere with flattening a top?

3. I agree re: a dog in every hole. This is on my list the next time I have an ADD attack and need to chase a rabbit in the middle of a project ;-). I am very glad I made the dog hole strip quite thick it adds tremendous strength and stability.

Karl,

Very good thoughts. Very true about threaded rod. One thing I would do different on mine is counter sink the bolt heads in the end caps and threaded rod.

Also true about flattening bottom. I spend many extra hours doing that so I could run it thorugh the planer.

The retractable plane stop is rarely used. I find its too narrow, too far away and too far from the edge. If I had to do over I would eliminate it.

[edit] The only disappointing part of my bench is the shoulder vise action. It is much too wiggly and practically eliminates clamping stock that isn't wide enough to reach the screw mount. Part of this is probably because I rounded over the guide ear on the clamp face too much (if you've built one of these benches you will know what I'm referring to). I plan to either alter or remake the ear in such a way to reduce the tilt tendency. There are two factors at work: you want the clamp block to move smoothly + be stable.

To all, I would be interested to see a pic of your bench.

Here's mine:

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[Chris Hachet]

I would agree with that other than the thought of not doing a split top. I love being able to plane the sections through a common size planer, if half the top gets damaged, I only need to replace half the top, and keeping it simple is the name of the game.

Split top IMHO also makes clamping so, so so much easier.

Probably doing a metal end vise for a tail vise on the bench i am (slowly) building now, good to know the vise of the OP works well.

[Kees Heiden]

I like the Record QR too! Brilliant piece of kit. Like you I have it in the endposition.

And my bench is almost 24" wide and I wouldn't have it any narrower. But I have long arms.

And the shelf under the bench is just a place to collect junk, shavings and dust.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Good thread concept.

Mine is a DF split top roubo- 6-1/2' long, 26" wide, 32" tall. Benchcrafted wagon vise and an Eclipse 10" QR vise (no leg vise). Completed about 8 months ago.

-I actually appreciate the bit of extra width. This may be because I keep my bench out from the wall, accessible from all sides. I use the "back" side almost as much as the front, and in the midst of projects I tend to set up stations at different areas on the benchtop. If I had to put the bench against the wall I can see wanting it narrower, but in my situation the extra space is nice. I haven't felt the need to go any wider yet, though.

-32" height is mostly fine for me at 5'8". It is a compromise height...somewhere between the ideals for heavy planing and detail work. For detail work I customized a stool so I can sit at a comfortable height- this works well and tucks away under the right side benchtop extension. For planing, its fine with all my planes except my big wooden try plane. I've recently started trying to use this plane and find that on 8/4 stock my left shoulder (off hand) is at a funny angle and gets tired quickly. I still need more experience with this plane to say for sure that bench height is the culprit, but it's the only plane I have trouble with right now. Anyways, I've found 32" is a great height for sawing things held in the front vise.

-Vises- The BC tail vise is great- but no surprises there. I made square dog holes and only two dogs. Haven't found it to be any big hassle to move the dog where its needed. My Roubo is unusual in that I have a QR steel front vise instead of a leg vise. Haven't regretted that decision so far- it's quick and easy to use, powerful, and large. The much dreaded racking has not been an issue so far and I often clamp things on one side- I lined the jaws with suede and it doesn't require much pressure to hold securely. I did recess the rear jaw into the benchtop so that the rear clamping surface is flush with the front edge of the bench, and added a white oak chop on the front jaw. Somewhat unusually, the left side of the chop is flush with the left end of the bench. This is nice for crosscutting anything that can be held in the vise.

-Split top Roubo design- I'd build it this way again. I like the aesthetics and versatility. The split top is essential for someone like me who is renting a house and knows they will need to move in the future. That said, being made out of doug fir with a top only a hair over 3" thick, it is feasible for me to move the bench around the shop when needed. Yet it is extremely solid in use - I also added horse stall mat to the bottoms of the legs to improve the grip on concrete. I reckon the bench weighs 250-300 pounds (including vises), which seems like a good weight range to me.

I do like the tool storage space in the split. Whenever I am doing something like dovetailing where I am going back and forth between different saws and chisels its nice to have a safe place on the bench top to put them. Otherwise they would sit out and clutter up the bench and be more likely to get an edge dinged up on something. The ability to get clamps between the slabs is nice of course. I have yet to use the planing stop in the split.

-I agree with the OP about the bottom shelf and cleaning, although I don't think plugging the dog holes would help much. I still wouldn't get rid of the shelf, though, because it's the perfect place for bench hooks, shooting boards, etc. Without it those things would just clutter up some other area of the shop and be less convenient. In practice, the shelf just doesn't get cleaned as often as the rest of the bench.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

(I'm going to use all caps for just a second to highlight this)

EVERYONE'S IDEAL WORKBENCH WILL DIFFER FROM THE NEXT GUY'S. IDEAL FOR ONE PERSON IS NOT IDEAL FOR THE NEXT PERSON.

That's not directed at the OP- but rather it's something that needs to be included in this thread, and it's always the very first advice I give people when they ask me about bench design.

SO- that being said, here are my thoughts.

For many people, 22" is fine, but for me, it's way too skinny. I build boats and surfboards, as well as large furniture. One reason I want a bigger bench is- have you seen boat plans? They're huge. I frequently need to have the plans spread out, looking at a part while I carve out something to the size and shape it's supposed to be. I need a wider bench.
I opted for the split-top Roubo because it gives me that wider bench- in my case 28" wide- but I have a narrow 12.5" side when the middle is removed for when I want to work on the bottom of a chair, or some other unusual-shaped item. The planing stop, however, is kind of silly. I am not finished with my latest bench, but I probably won't even make the middle part where it can raise up- just removable. A veritas planing stop or batten does the job simple enough.
Build it as heavy as you can afford. I have heard the arguments to the contrary- some saying make wide legs for more friction- but it's weight that holds that bench in place when you're planing some difficult piece of wood. If you can't build it heavy, make a shelf and fill it with the heaviest tools you have. My old bench held my bench grinder and clamps, plus some lead weights I use for holding stuff down.
I agree with the OP about the through-dovetailed legs, but boy they are cool, and I will one day build a bench that way. This latest bench I opted for a removable top.
Dog holes- you really can't have too many (within reason- I mean don't make the thing look like pegboard, but you get the idea). Personally I'm opting for two rows on each half of the split-top, as close to the edge as I can get them, and spaced 12" with a vise that opens 14". I haven't drilled them yet for this bench because I have to ensure with chop and all that the vise will open 14" and will adjust as needed. The dog holes should be spaced a couple of inches less than your chop opens to so that you don't always have to crank the thing all the way out and you have more options for where to clamp.
You can never have too many vises, but you certainly can have too few. That's why I opted for three on this latest bench- a leg vise, a twin-screw end vise stretching edge-to edge on one end, and a pattern maker's vise on the other. *Bonus- a sliding deadman and dog holes in the legs as well. That works for me because I need to clamp big stuff and long boards for planing. The end vise and pattern maker's vise can work opposite each other and give me the ability to clamp over a 9' board between the dog holes. I will be doing that very frequently. The other guy may never need such a thing. Refer back to my all caps statement above.
If I could only have one vise, probably I'd go for the leg vise, assuming I can also have a sliding deadman. It's a versatile setup. My main reason for the pattern maker's vise is for carving and for holding metal stuff, engine parts, and things that would damage a wood chop.
My latest bench has an ash top. I already love it. (I'm using the top to build the base.) I wanted maple, but I very much like the feel of ash. Maple is so hard that there's this feedback that is really hard to put to words. The feedback with ash is just different- like when chopping mortices. I can't really explain it.
I'm all for the totally utilitarian workbench, but my shop is my sanctuary, and I put my heart into everything I build. I personally decided to go all-out and build one of those fancy benches with fancy woods and shiny parts, but just understand that I won't be afraid to get it dented and dirty. I just personally decided to let my bench reflect the quality of my work. That said, I don't knock the guy that feels a bench should be built to suit the purpose without all the frills- as long as he doesn't get high and mighty about it and try to shun my decision to build a fancy bench. :-) I believe both options have their merit and it's up to the builder to decide which path to take. (Refer back to my all-caps statement.)
One thing on my latest bench that I am really excited about, is I am hanging the pattern maker's vise off a dog leg longer than the other half of the split-top, so that I can work three sides of the vise without interference. This is useless for some folks, but for me it's going to be great for carving, or when I'm holding some part that I need to work from multiple sides. Sure, I can move the vise up, down, and around, but it's nice to have that dogleg. It will also be convenient when building chairs and cabinets to have a dogleg to hang them over. I'm expecting great things from this small detail.
Don't go cheap. If you can't afford at least ONE good vise, save your money until you can. Put one really nice vise. You will thank yourself. I think my biggest regret from previous benches is the crappy clamping ability of the vises. That shall be a thing of the past.
I have seen a lot of folks make these massive (top to bottom, not side to side) chops for their twin-screw vises. I want to give my thoughts on that for a second. The pressure in a vise chop comes from the screw. There is going to be "X" amount of pressure, regardless of how big the chop is. That pressure, "X", is spread out across the face of the chop. A larger chop has less pressure per square inch than a narrower chop, all other factors (the screw pressure) being equal. My twin-screw vise will have a chop 5 1/4" tall from top to bottom- the same as the thickness of my bench top. I started to make a piece that extended down from the bench top, and having this massive 12" tall end vise, but really what I gain in added area, I lose by spreading the clamping force out over a larger area. There is certainly merit to a big chop- like friction to hold something you are sawing a tenon in from the side of the vise, but again, that friction is also coming from the lbs/in2 of the screw. Hopefully this makes sense to someone out there. It's hard to explain without using my hands. :-)
I absolutely love the idea of having slots to drop tools into (aka the split-top Roubo per Benchcrafted's plans), and I am really not a fan at all of tool trays, aka "clutter catchers." I have yet to have a tool tray that didn't become like that one kitchen drawer where you put all the stuff that you don't really know where to put- like rubber bands and batteries. (Don't tell me you don't have that drawer somewhere in your house.) This being said, I am adding some t-track to the end of my bench and making a removable tray for when I do want something to put tools in, but it can come and go, making it less tempting to become the rubber band/battery drawer of my workbench. Also tools like chisels, marking tools, etc. will eventually reside in little cases made to screw into the t-track so I can have them at hand but still stored in their cute little fitted cases that I haven't built yet... but I will... as soon as I finish those other projects.
Back to the width of a bench- When I was a photographer back in the dark ages of film photography, my darkroom had a dry side and a wet side. I have similar plans for my workbench- not wet and dry, but working and staging. The wide split-top gives me a working side, and a side to put the parts that I just worked on, the plans for the build, the box of screws, etc. I landed at 28" as an ideal for me personally. I'm making the gap between the two tops bigger than Benchcrafted's plans call for because I need to work really weird shaped pieces that need to curve down between the two tops. The 28" width gives me room to work on a stretcher for a large table, and have the two legs resting on the back of the bench so I can double-check things as I'm marking the mortices. (just for one example)
Something unique to my bench will be t-tracks on the inside edges of the split-top. This allows me to clamp in building jigs, bending forms, and for surfboard building the building forms can clamp in place and easily be leveled and raised up and down. If you built surfboards, you'd think I was a genius. If you build furniture, you'll think I'm wasting my money and time putting t-tracks inside the narrow gap between the tops. Seriously, who would do that? That's where we refer back to the all-caps statement at the top of the page.
Shelves are your friend. At least one shelf on the bottom of the bench to put big stuff. It's not only convenient, but it also adds weight. Drawers are cool, but you really have to plan where to put drawers. If you have a sliding deadman, then that's going to be a problem when opening drawers. My bench will have one shelf at the bottom with removable boards for shaking out sawdust and if I ever decide to put drawers, I can always slide in a case, which I'm going to call a "drawer pack" for lack of better words.
Overhangs are great. They allow you to hang a case, and also you can roll a shop vac, sharpening station, or tool storage under that overhang and maximize space. My bench top will overhang 16" on either side- flush to the front and back.
I wavered back and forth on how tall to make my bench. I landed somewhere in-between the height of my old bench and the height of my table saw. Honestly, I have to check my notes. I think I ended up at 33". I'm only 5'7" tall. I decided there was no perfect height and no matter what I chose, it would be either too high or too low, so I just found a happy medium.



This is a great thread. Sorry for being long-winded, but I wanted to just throw out ideas and my reasons for each. I believe each person should just consider all the options and ideas and choose what works best for what they do the most.

One other note- I have a rolling tool cabinet with wood top stored directly behind my workbench so I can get my tools out, lay them on the bench, and as I need a tool I can turn around, grab it, and keep working, and as I am done put it right back on or in the tool cabinet. This is one of the best things I can recommend. It's all about the workflow.

[Hasin Haroon]

Wow, great responses so far! Thank you for sharing your experiences, it'll prove very useful when I and other readers work on our next benches.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'd love a small heavy bench for joinery (scandi) and a planing beam for everything else, had I the space. I find that what has become more critical in my work is flatness directly under the area of planing, I made a planing beam for kumiko but end up using it for everything critical and thin.

[Phil Stone]

What I've learned after a year of use on my "hybrid top Roubo" http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?241141-Hybrid-top-Roubo (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?241141-Hybrid-top-Roubo) :

The leg vise with Veritas screw and Benchcrafted Crisscross works beautifully. I would probably spring for the "Glide" doing it again, though. The extra cost is not much, percentage-wise, and it will get used thousands of times over the years.

5 ft. long is working ok for me, though I might go up to 6 if I had to do it again. 24" wide works well, too.

Biggest lesson: I used a pre-fabbed BallyBlock laminated maple top. The laminations do not keep a constant grain direction, so the top cannot be hand planed easily. I'd go with gluing up my own, properly-oriented top next time.

[Tom Bussey]

If I was to build another I would put the leg vise at the other end So I could clamp both left and right handed. I would also and put more drawers under the top for more storage. I like every thing that is used at the bench right there. I don't want to have to walk someplace else to get it. If the bench just has a shelf then it just fills up with clutter. I like a larger top because it make using 24 inch Bessy clamps much easier.

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[William Fretwell]

[edit] The only disappointing part of my bench is the shoulder vise action. It is much too wiggly and practically eliminates clamping stock that isn't wide enough to reach the screw mount. Part of this is probably because I rounded over the guide ear on the clamp face too much (if you've built one of these benches you will know what I'm referring to). I plan to either alter or remake the ear in such a way to reduce the tilt tendency. There are two factors at work: you want the clamp block to move smoothly + be stable.


Changing the guide ear won't solve your problem. It's purpose is to stop the vise face turning when you move it in or out. If the vise face edge clears the shoulder enough it won't then catch on the shoulder even with its angular movement. It is a simple matter to modify your vise face to solve your problem. As your apron does not look overly deep you may have to make a new one to accommodate the mod but not a big problem. I will have to take a picture of mine to explain it.

[Robert Engel]

Changing the guide ear won't solve your problem. It's purpose is to stop the vise face turning when you move it in or out. If the vise face edge clears the shoulder enough it won't then catch on the shoulder even with its angular movement. It is a simple matter to modify your vise face to solve your problem. As your apron does not look overly deep you may have to make a new one to accommodate the mod but not a big problem. I will have to take a picture of mine to explain it.Thanks. To be clear, I'm talking about the vise racking vertically, not horizontally. I think if the ear was tighter in the slot formed by the top of the stretcher/bottom of spacer board it would help.

[Karl Andersson]

OK, I would also like to see/ hear more about your vise design. Maybe we need a new thread on shoulder vises, but then again, this is all part of "workbench principles", even if we're not speaking French about our benches.

I have needed to fine-tune my shoulder vise "clamping board" since it was built; it tends to bind against the bench extension on the left and the LV screw's head has never fit well in the bracket, so it grabs and spins the board. My ear is just an extension of the lower left end of the clamping board, so I could fix the spin by screwing a board to the underside of the bench, enclosing the ear and also filing the end of the screw. I'd like to see how your ear is shaped and spaced within its slot

here's mine when new- it's just dirtier now
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BTW, regarding the allthread issue, that nut seen to the left of the screw started being about flush with the outside edge of the bench - now it's about 3/16 inset due to the wood compressing. I'm going to inset a hard maple bearing plate...soon.

[William Fretwell]

I have seen a lot of folks make these massive (top to bottom, not side to side) chops for their twin-screw vises. I want to give my thoughts on that for a second. The pressure in a vise chop comes from the screw. There is going to be "X" amount of pressure, regardless of how big the chop is. That pressure, "X", is spread out across the face of the chop. A larger chop has less pressure per square inch than a narrower chop, all other factors (the screw pressure) being equal. My twin-screw vise will have a chop 5 1/4" tall from top to bottom- the same as the thickness of my bench top. I started to make a piece that extended down from the bench top, and having this massive 12" tall end vise, but really what I gain in added area, I lose by spreading the clamping force out over a larger area. There is certainly merit to a big chop- like friction to hold something you are sawing a tenon in from the side of the vise, but again, that friction is also coming from the lbs/in2 of the screw. Hopefully this makes sense to someone out there. It's hard to explain without using my hands. :-)
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The force exerted by the screws is exerted over the area of the workpeice being held. A deeper chop gives a mechanical advantage in holding the workpeice. Yes for the same workpeice a deeper chop exerts less pressure per square inch but the coefficient of static friction is very high so the reduced pressure matters not. The mechanical advantage to resist twisting and movement of the workpeice is huge. So yes build a big chop but remember if the work does not fill the chop depth then wracking will ensue.

[Matthew Hills]

My few points:



wider benches are better for assembly and collecting clutter (my 30" bench has spent most of its service life with back 12" holding excess lumber)
expect to be flexible -- your usage probably won't match your
Front vise and planing stops are my most-used features; holdfasts sometimes; end vise and dog holes rarely
Planing stops in the dog holes are great. Make your own or get the Veritas ( http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=69837&cat=1,41182 )
leather (or crubber?) in the vise chop is a nice boost to the vise.
look for tool storage to be quickly accessible from bench for common items (chisels, mallets, etc.)
nice to have some sharpening close to bench. (strop clamped in end vise is a decent start)


Matt

[Hasin Haroon]

Great responses. I'd like to share a more general principle that I've come to realise would work well for me - The bench should be a working surface, not a surface that gets cluttered or has piles of unfinished projects on it. A very wide bench or a bench with tool storage for me would end up being that way because I'm lazy and I will end up going the route of most apparent convenience. So a narrower bench with no tool tray/planing stop forces me to organise the rest of my shop, and to keep it organised....

[Chris Hachet]

What I've learned after a year of use on my "hybrid top Roubo" http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?241141-Hybrid-top-Roubo (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?241141-Hybrid-top-Roubo) :

The leg vise with Veritas screw and Benchcrafted Crisscross works beautifully. I would probably spring for the "Glide" doing it again, though. The extra cost is not much, percentage-wise, and it will get used thousands of times over the years.

5 ft. long is working ok for me, though I might go up to 6 if I had to do it again. 24" wide works well, too.

Biggest lesson: I used a pre-fabbed BallyBlock laminated maple top. The laminations do not keep a constant grain direction, so the top cannot be hand planed easily. I'd go with gluing up my own, properly-oriented top next time.


My bench is 5 foot with a criss cross and a bench crafted classic...works fabulously.

[Chris Hachet]

I'd love a small heavy bench for joinery (scandi) and a planing beam for everything else, had I the space. I find that what has become more critical in my work is flatness directly under the area of planing, I made a planing beam for kumiko but end up using it for everything critical and thin.


A planing beam seems like it would be very efficient, I agree with the concept of a multi bench approach.

[William Fretwell]

Thanks. To be clear, I'm talking about the vise racking vertically, not horizontally. I think if the ear was tighter in the slot formed by the top of the stretcher/bottom of spacer board it would help.

The horizontal wracking is a good thing so you can hold tapered pieces! The vertical wracking will not be influenced by the tab however the wracking may influence the tab to break off!

When you move the vise face in or out it twists the face right or left just slightly but enough to wedge or jam the face edge against the shoulder if it touches. The corners of the vise face next to the shoulder should be rounded so they don't touch. The friction of the tab is trivial and the tab edges can be rounded as well.

See my reply to the post below for more.

[ken hatch]

My French-English bench in use:

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/shopMainBench151101_1_zpsqpx7f5cf.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/bathVanityTopJointing20150509_zpsoi86dgtt.jpg

Everyone has different needs....This one is as close to perfect as can be. What would/will I change on the next build? I expect nothing except instead of a "split fill" I may just have the split set at the correct width to hold saws and squares because it is never removed nor used for a stop.

ken

[William Fretwell]

Fretwell's modification shoulder face.

OK, I would also like to see/ hear more about your vise design. Maybe we need a new thread on shoulder vises, but then again, this is all part of "workbench principles", even if we're not speaking French about our benches.

I have needed to fine-tune my shoulder vise "clamping board" since it was built; it tends to bind against the bench extension on the left and the LV screw's head has never fit well in the bracket, so it grabs and spins the board. My ear is just an extension of the lower left end of the clamping board, so I could fix the spin by screwing a board to the underside of the bench, enclosing the ear and also filing the end of the screw. I'd like to see how your ear is shaped and spaced within its slot

here's mine when new- it's just dirtier now
351581

BTW, regarding the allthread issue, that nut seen to the left of the screw started being about flush with the outside edge of the bench - now it's about 3/16 inset due to the wood compressing. I'm going to inset a hard maple bearing plate...soon.

Yes you should enclose the tab with a board. The end of the screw is a loose fit, the end does nothing, the shoulder pushes. If it is sinking into the back of the face then discard it and use a harder wood. While you are at it you can add my modification. I will describe it and add a photo later.

Now is later,
351640

Fretwell's modification:

To stop vertical wracking holding a small piece the same size as the work below the screw keeps the face vertical but it falls out each time the piece is moved.

I added a 3/8" inch dado starting 1/2" from the bottom of the vise face. The dado is 3/8" deep, my vise face is 7/8" thick. I made a series of L shaped (NOT 'T' SHAPED) inserts that slide in with about an inch projecting UP the vise face from the dado. I made 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" and 1" to start. There is NO force on the dado insert.

They don't fall out at all but they can't fall with even several turns of the screw. They solve the wracking problem. Now you will say I've created a new problem as the top and bottom of the vise face are fixed and the screw pressure in the middle will break the vise face.

The reality is the mount is quite large spreading the force over a large area. Even if the insert is 2" below the screw centre it would require an enormous force to break.

Now my apron is 5" deep. If your apron in 4" deep I would add an inch to the bottom of the vise face so the dado is below your apron. This will keep your full clamping surface. The L shape will reach up to the bottom edge of the apron when required.

The advantage of a deep apron is the inserts still work with sizes that don't match but are close.

This modification is most useful in improving the performance of the shoulder vise. Use a good strong hard wood and in an hour you can have a new vise face with inserts! You can even hook a smaller insert onto an installed larger one to expand the range!

My end vise modification is substantial and has many ramifications for work position, end vise performance and leg design but will need a thread of it's own sometime.

[Brian Holcombe]

Those shoulder bolts drove me nuts, once you fix it from crushing the side grain, you'll pull the threads out of the bench. Every single vintage scandi bench I've come across has that area damaged.

Here is my fix;

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_5361.jpg

[Chris Hachet]

If I was to build another I would put the leg vise at the other end So I could clamp both left and right handed. I would also and put more drawers under the top for more storage. I like every thing that is used at the bench right there. I don't want to have to walk someplace else to get it. If the bench just has a shelf then it just fills up with clutter. I like a larger top because it make using 24 inch Bessy clamps much easier.

351553 351554351555 351556

I love your work bench, I am a sucker for a nice Scandi style bench.

[Chris Hachet]

Those shoulder bolts drove me nuts, once you fix it from crushing the side grain, you'll pull the threads out of the bench. Every single vintage scandi bench I've come across has that area damaged.

Here is my fix;

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_5361.jpg

Japanese
Love the smoothing plane...and nice fix....

[William Fretwell]

That's very elegant Brian. It gives you a larger area to pull against. You do loose 1 & 1/2 inches of mechanical advantage compared to a threaded rod right at the edge of the shoulder.
I used a whopping 1/2" threaded rod with large washers. The rear nut and washer is buried way back in the bench. I used black walnut so I hope it does not pull through some day!
I also minimised the shoulder board by recessing the hardware into the arm. When my shoulder vise is fully open the back of the face is exactly flush with the arm. I had to build out the arm a little just where needed but not at the threaded bolt.
This kept my shoulder board as short as possible to save wood both there and the bench end (very short on my wood!).

To gain as much mechanical advantage as possible I kept the rod very close to the shoulder edge and made the vise face a little larger away from the shoulder. Having a deep apron and vise face increases the coefficient of static friction enormously so you actually use less brute force. Tucking your board into the shoulder also helps.

One more thing: When the shoulder vise is fully 'IN' it is 1/8" short of touching the apron. This was very deliberate as my engineer son (hope he does not read this) likes to stress things. I could see him stressing the shoulder 'just to see' what happens! I think it less likely with a workpeice involved. The reality is big screw threads can exert an enormous force when cranked. You can absolutely destroy any shoulder vise if you wish as the thread is so much bigger and has a large mechanical advantage. Used properly it should last a very long time but old stuff will inevitably get subjected to abuse over the years. Actually not having too large a handle on the vise may be a very good idea, especially in schools and colleges.

[Brian Holcombe]

Japanese
Love the smoothing plane...and nice fix....

Thank you!


That's very elegant Brian. It gives you a larger area to pull against. You do loose 1 & 1/2 inches of mechanical advantage compared to a threaded rod right at the edge of the shoulder.
I used a whopping 1/2" threaded rod with large washers. The rear nut and washer is buried way back in the bench. I used black walnut so I hope it does not pull through some day!
I also minimised the shoulder board by recessing the hardware into the arm. When my shoulder vise is fully open the back of the face is exactly flush with the arm. I had to build out the arm a little just where needed but not at the threaded bolt.
This kept my shoulder board as short as possible to save wood both there and the bench end (very short on my wood!).

To gain as much mechanical advantage as possible I kept the rod very close to the shoulder edge and made the vise face a little larger away from the shoulder. Having a deep apron and vise face increases the coefficient of static friction enormously so you actually use less brute force. Tucking your board into the shoulder also helps.

Well....more like 1/2", since the centerline of the bolt is at least 1/4" from the edge (mine was more) and the centerline of the gooseneck is about 3/4" from the edge.

That is a great idea to inset the hardware, I should have done so as well. And also, I could have cut down on the throat opening considerably, since I use maybe 4" max, and I probably have more like 6". Typically I use up to 3", so if i were building it for that I could have minimized the leverage even more so.

[William Fretwell]

I think the throat opening has a small effect on the leverage. You want the full use of the vise! Mine is 7" plus 1/8" fully open.
I sized your dog holes at 1x 1.5" so put your mid line at 1.5" from the edge.

[William Fretwell]

I wish organising my shop was as easy as not having a tool tray! :) In my case the tool tray is just to catch stuff before it hits the concrete floor and I have to crawl around and pick up the blunted chisel or cracked plane. It is amazing how many tools are saved from a horrible fate!

[Izzy Camire]

2. Softwood benches hold up perfectly fine. A year on I do have a few surface cuts from chopping, but the bench is holding up just fine without too many dents.

I was glad to see the above. I will probably build my bench next winter as I am completing my shop. I have lots of hemlock on my property and have run a decent amount through my sawmill. So I have a lot of 2 by hemlock. I figure I would use it for the base of the bench but now I am thinking I may try it for the top too. I suppose if it didn't work out I could always use a hard wood.

[Chris Hachet]

2. Softwood benches hold up perfectly fine. A year on I do have a few surface cuts from chopping, but the bench is holding up just fine without too many dents.

I was glad to see the above. I will probably build my bench next winter as I am completing my shop. I have lots of hemlock on my property and have run a decent amount through my sawmill. So I have a lot of 2 by hemlock. I figure I would use it for the base of the bench but now I am thinking I may try it for the top too. I suppose if it didn't work out I could always use a hard wood.

idea
It really is not that difficult to laminate a top, you could always change it out alter. Also, you would ahve a better about changes you might want to make at that time.

[Jim Koepke]

Hasin, This is a great thread that will surely be of help to someone thinking about building a work bench.

As Malcolm stated:


EVERYONE'S IDEAL WORKBENCH WILL DIFFER FROM THE NEXT GUY'S. IDEAL FOR ONE PERSON IS NOT IDEAL FOR THE NEXT PERSON.

One should never chose a bench design based on what someone else thinks.

As an example, many folks prefer the Scandinavian bench. Surely they must work to produce beautiful work or they wouldn't be the choice of many workers.

Though they are beautiful, my senses fail to see the advantage of a Scandinavian style bench. Can someone explain why it is better than a much simpler vise arrangement?

Over time my very simple vises have proven to be rather effective in catering to my needs. They do rack, but that isn't hard to control.

351612

The Scandi/shoulder vise doesn't allow for wood to be held past the face of the bench. My 5' bench allows me to have some of an 8' board past both ends to plane an edge.

My face vise is flush to the face. Some prefer to have a space to fit their hand behind the piece being worked. For me, it is better to be able to use a holdfast on a long piece to support the end away from the vise.

My vises are also easily removed for work where they get in the way.

Having my face vise to the left of the front leg makes for an extra support for clamping a wide piece in the vise.

Here is a shot of some cabinet pieces being held to the end of the bench with the tail vise removed:

351613

The Scandinavian end vise also seems to create some limitations for holding a piece all the way across the end for sawing. Often my tail vise is used to hold a piece of lumber with a saw vise, a metal vise or some other item attached.

Of course some folks will never have a need or desire to work with an 8' piece of lumber or hold other appliances on their benches.

This is why there isn't a one kind or size fits all when it comes to our work benches.

To me an apron is useful, just not a deep apron as on a Nicholson bench. If my local common lumber supply had boards wider than 12", then maybe a deeper apron would be more useful.

The weight of a bench is another factor to consider. As much as we think our planing is applying force aimed at moving the plane horizontal, it will be quite obvious there is down ward pressure once the planing moves beyond the end of the bench if the bench doesn't have enough weight to keep its back end on the ground. Mine has a 5 gallon bucket full of concrete attached to the left end keeping it on the ground during a planing session.

Bench dogs are another personal choice. My preference is for round dogs and dog holes. There are some advantages to square dogs.

If one wants a tool tray or under bench storage, one might want to consider ways of cleaning these out as they will gather shavings and sawdust.

Because we each have our own projects, styles and methods of work, we each need to determine what will work best for our own needs.

If one wants to build chairs, then it would be a good idea to have a bench deep enough to accommodate the splay of the chair's legs. If one is building small jewelry and keepsake boxes, there is no need for an 8' bench.

jtk