Suggestion -support for a separate SMC Shop Tour "segment" [Archive]

Frank Pellow

10-11-2005, 7:34 AM

Kirk (KC) Constable

10-11-2005, 8:00 AM

I don't really care one way or the other, but I think there are plenty of separate sections already...and the search feature on this site works well.

KC

Ed Lang

10-11-2005, 8:03 AM

I like the idea Frank. That way I could go to the exact spot if I wanted to look at shops.

Aaron Koehl

10-11-2005, 8:17 AM

Aaron tells us that, with the changes he is in the process of making, it will be easy to mix text and pictures.

Though I haven't used it yet, I think this particular feature (inline images) lends itself well to a Shop Tours section. With a few modifications to the code, it could be very cool. I was also waiting to do this upgrade for some additional plug-in type enhancements for a Shop Tours section.

Larry Browning

10-11-2005, 8:29 AM

The treads about shop tours seem to generate the most interest of any threads that we have here. This despite the fact that it has not been easy to intersperse text and pictures and only "pros" seem to be able to accomplish that feat.

Aaron tells us that, with the changes he is in the process of making, it will be easy to mix text and pictures.

So I suggest that it is now time for us to support what I will call a "segment", which might end up being a separate forum, where folks can provide tours of their shops.

It would probably be best if the threads in this segment were organized by name, rather than, by date submitted, but I don't know weather this is easy to do.
As I recall, having a shop tour "area" has been one of the long term goals for SMC.
With the latest developments here at SMC, I think there is opportunity here to make some changes to our "business model". The response to the call for donations thread has been GREAT!! and shows that SMC is truly a special place with very special people. This is why I think that some of the conventional wisdom about message boards do not apply to SMC. The idea that asking for donations for operating expenses or having a paid subscription membership will not work DOES NOT APPLY TO US. The donations sent in so far should sustain us for at least a year or two, but I think we need to start thinking long term here.
Someone suggested we use the public radio model of having periodic hard core pushy drives for donations and recognizing those members for their donations. I think that with some discussion we can come up with our own version of the paid membership business model.
One of those ideas might be
to only allow paid members to post in the shop tour area or maybe the opposite of that, only paid members to view the shop tour area. This introduces the idea of having extra perks to paying members, which is something that will work as an incentive to become a paying member.
I think the idea of recognizing members for their donation is also a good one. Since we now have to be self supporting, we need to let everyone know exactly who is providing that support.

I know that there are many more ideas out there, so let's hear them!!!

Frank,
Sorry for hijacking your thread!

Jeff Sudmeier

10-11-2005, 8:37 AM

Frank, I would definately agree that it would be great to see a separate Shop Tours segment. The old shop tours from Badger Pond are really neat to look at! It would be really great if we could have the same type thing here!!

Jeff Sudmeier

10-11-2005, 8:43 AM

This is why I think that some of the conventional wisdom about message boards do not apply to SMC. The idea that asking for donations for operating expenses or having a paid subscription membership will not work DOES NOT APPLY TO US.

One of those ideas might be
to only allow paid members to post in the shop tour area or maybe the opposite of that, only paid members to view the shop tour area. This introduces the idea of having extra perks to paying members, which is something that will work as an incentive to become a paying member.
I think the idea of recognizing members for their donation is also a good one. Since we now have to be self supporting, we need to let everyone know exactly who is providing that support.

Larry, I whole heartidly agree that the conventional wisdom of Paid message boards doesn't apply to SMC.

However, I would also state emphaticly that if SMC went to a Subscription only board, it would die. I hate to say it, but I have seen two of my forums go this route, subscription only. Only about 5% or less of members signed up and the forum slowly died.

Now, that's not to say that a donation based/Subscription benifited forum can't work! I belong to another forum, www.boatered.com (http://www.boatered.com). It is a boating forum as you may have guessed. They have a subscriber feature, where you get access to the Off-topic forum. It is kind of cheesy, but it does get a lot of people to subscribe, so that they can have access to the off-topic forum. The idea of having a subscriber's only forum is a great one Larry! And I think it is one that SMC should pursue, should the donation drives taper off.

The first time that a beloved site may go away, the response is always great, here's to hoping it continues!!

I was truely amazed at the response for donations that the donation thread caused!! We have some truely great members here, that is what makes SMC so very very special!! I am proud to belong here!

Larry Browning

10-11-2005, 8:49 AM

Brian Austin

10-11-2005, 10:48 AM

Aaron, you might look at vbGarage. We morphed it a little to become vbHangar at Pilots of America, another vBulletin site (www.pilotsofamerica.com).

Lee DeRaud

10-11-2005, 10:58 AM

Steve Clardy

10-11-2005, 12:36 PM

I'm all for it Frank. And Larry Browning's idea is good.

Aaron Koehl

10-11-2005, 12:57 PM

Brian,

That's one of the hacks under consideration.. ;)

Aaron Koehl

10-11-2005, 1:00 PM

I have mixed feelings about the idea of a separate "Shop Tour" forum. On the one hand, it's a big step down a slippery slope of proliferating ultra-specialized forums, which could quickly become annoying.

On the other hand, if we were going to start spinning off new ones, I think I'd rather see a "Gallery" forum, to separate the new project pictures (whether laser, turning, or "regular" wood) from the material/tool/method Q&A stuff. Just a thought.
Lee,

Separate forums are an absolute must as SawmillCreek grows, for organizational and archival purposes alone.

As soon as we can get more people using the "New Posts" link at the top of the screen, the different forums become an organizational tool for browsing and finding specific areas of interest. Think of the different forums not as separate entities, but as "browsable topics".

Having a "General Forum" is nice, and will never go away, but we are in a transitional process (and have been since we started) to move to more browsable, organized forums.

Jeff Sudmeier

10-11-2005, 1:49 PM

Lee DeRaud

10-11-2005, 2:03 PM

Separate forums are an absolute must as SawmillCreek grows, for organizational and archival purposes alone.Well, just so you don't forget to set up a "Whine About Gas Prices" forum too.:eek:

Keith Outten

10-11-2005, 3:07 PM

Jeff,
I in no way was trying to imply that we shoud have a subscribers only forum! I just want to introduce the idea of some sort of extra perks or features for members that do pay. I also think another incentive to pay would be reconizing the paid members in some way.

Larry

I agree with Larry and we are seriously thinking about some kind of perk for those who donate. A steady flow of small donations would assure that we can continue on almost indefinately without ever having to ask or badger our Members for funds. A new designation for Members who support SMC is just around the corner, Jackie will start updating donors accounts shortly...what would you like the new title to be? Sponsor? GoldMember?

Several of our Members have suggested a special forum that would allow donors to post items for sale, not classifieds exactly but items our members produce. Only those who donate could post in this forum, everyone would be able to view the forum obviously.

Frank, rather than another Forum for shop tours I like the idea of producing a list of shop tours with links to the thread, it accomplishes the same thing and requires very little effort. This could also be done for reviews as well.

I mentioned earlier that I like the idea of adding a new front page to SMC with links to each special section and one link to the Forums Main page.

.

Andy Hoyt

10-11-2005, 5:59 PM

Here's my two bits worth. How about splitting the General Woodworking and Power Tool forum into three seperate forums.

One for Woodworking in general -- project gloats, pics, and questions.

One for Power tools and Shop Tours -- (This would be where I hang out)

One for Home Improvement issues -- We all have homes of one sort or another.

I'll bet if you admin guys could do a thread count separating the last two buhzillion posts into these three areas you'd find a fairly even spread.

One last thought. If would be nice if there were a How To Page somewhere that explained how all features of the site worked. I suggest that this not be forum (because it would get cluttered by confusing and questioning posts) and just be a plain old webpage that only the admin guys can modify.

Thanks.

Larry Browning

10-11-2005, 6:48 PM

I agree with Larry and we are seriously thinking about some kind of perk for those who donate. A steady flow of small donations would assure that we can continue on almost indefinitely without ever having to ask or badger our Members for funds. A new designation for Members who support SMC is just around the corner, Jackie will start updating donors accounts shortly...what would you like the new title to be? Sponsor? GoldMember?

Several of our Members have suggested a special forum that would allow donors to post items for sale, not classifieds exactly but items our members produce. Only those who donate could post in this forum, everyone would be able to view the forum obviously.

Frank, rather than another Forum for shop tours I like the idea of producing a list of shop tours with links to the thread, it accomplishes the same thing and requires very little effort. This could also be done for reviews as well.

I mentioned earlier that I like the idea of adding a new front page to SMC with links to each special section and one link to the Forums Main page.

. Keith, As far as donor title, how about a wood theme rather that metal. In stead of a "gold" member how about an "oak" member or "purpleheart" Maybe setup levels, such as a "pine" member has donated $5 in the past year, a "oak" member has given $10, a "walnut" member gave $25, "purpleheart" $50. Well, you get the idea. Maybe there could be a lifetime membership for a really large donation of say $1000. Otherwise the memberships expire after a year or 2 and you go back to just being a member. I like the idea of the shop tour section not being in the forum format at all, but rather setup like a photo gallery, with thumbnails that could be expanded. Viewers could leave public comments or PM the shop owner if they want. The shop tours would only be open to subscribers. I think that's a pretty good perk.

Steve Clardy

10-11-2005, 6:59 PM

Well, just so you don't forget to set up a "Whine About Gas Prices" forum too.:eek:

Lol. Good one.:D

Keith Outten

10-11-2005, 7:27 PM

Larry,

We could host html web pages for shop tours but each member would have to do the web design. this is how our Articles work now. This is very time consuming for us and the Member doesn't have direct access to make changes. One of the requirements I asked Aaron to consider is to provide Members access to their shop tours so they could update them any time they felt it is necessary. Some of our Members purchase new tools weekly....eh I mean regularly, they may need a full time web designer to keep their shop tour up to date :)
.

Larry Browning

10-11-2005, 7:50 PM

Keith,
I'm just brainstorming, Hosting a web page for shop tours could actually be more interesting that a set format anyway. You could point members to free html editors and sort of hold their hands to get them started in developing our own web page.
Another idea I had was to make the donation link a lot more prominent, so that NOBODY could miss it. Then you could spiffy it up a little and make it look more like a donation page, rather than a merchandise purchase page. I'd volunteer to do it but I don't know how.

Larry

Andy Hoyt

10-11-2005, 8:22 PM

Another two cents worth - I am not in favor of certain areas of, or privileges within, the creek being accessible only to donors. Nor am I in favor of creating a special caste system of identifying donors. And both for the same reason.

While the intentions of these suggestions are honorable and intended to respect the generosity of a small (?) percentage of contributors and lurkers; I fear that this will ultimately split the creek into fragments. Those that did and those that did not.

What makes this place so great is that:
It doesn't matter who or what you are
It doesn't matter whether you're a pro or novice
It doesn't matter whether you're brilliant or not
It doesn't matter whether you contribute or not
Everyone is always welcomed into the fray
Everyone becomes aware that their opinions or abilities are acknowledged to be valuable to all by all.Stepping away from this - to any degree - is an invitation to depart from what so obviously works so well and has made the creek such an exceptional and unique place.

If it aint broke don't fix it.

Sure, it would be nice to honor the donors and contributors, but there has just got to be another way. One that doesn't usurp the time and energy of the admin guys. One that doesn't cost the creek money. One that does let the donor know that he or she did their part in a nice quiet way, but doesn't serve as a constant reminder to those that did not or could not do likewise.

What that might be - I do not know - yet. I'll be thinking about it.

Thanks for listening - Andy

Bruce Page

10-11-2005, 8:26 PM

There’s a couple of different issues here.

First off, I like the idea of a "Shop Tours" forum and if everyone used the “New Posts” button, nothing would be missed. It would be cool to be able to cruise the different SMC shops, one after another.

As far as having to be a paying member to utilize the different SMC features, I’m strongly against it. In John Bailey’s thread, I said that I would be willing to pay a monthly subscription, but I would much rather see a once a year fund drive like we had this past weekend. Judging by the response to John’s post I think there would be more than an adequate number of people willing to donate. If some members don't want to contribute, well that should be OK too.

Tom Hamilton

10-11-2005, 8:34 PM

As several have pointed out SMC is capable of user support; it costs about the same as a 7-10 time per year magazine but with daily access and frankly many times, higher quality advice; and there are several models to imitate from PBS to museums to airlines.The larger the contribution the more access, higher the level of membership or "rewards" that the member receives. I'm sure there are all kinds of "woodworking related tinkets" available if that route is part of the plan. Levels of membership could be wood species, tools, skill level (apprentice, journeyman, craftsman, Smaltzer, Turnistra, etc.)And to reinforce what Andy Hoyt said: One last thought. If would be nice if there were a How To Page somewhere that explained how all features of the site worked. I suggest that this not be forum (because it would get cluttered by confusing and questioning posts) and just be a plain old webpage that only the admin guys can modify. Please! I'm honored to be a part of this enterprise. TJH

nic obie

10-11-2005, 9:19 PM

Separate forums are an absolute must as SawmillCreek grows, for organizational and archival purposes alone.

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Aaron

I beg to differ with you.

Most people just like to click on one BB. I've seen too many forums slow down when split up. If it's not broke, why try to fix it?

The proof is in the puddin' after this weekend's fund raising. :)

Aaron Koehl

10-11-2005, 10:42 PM

Keith, As far as donor title, how about a wood theme rather that metal. In stead of a "gold" member how about an "oak" member or "purpleheart" Maybe setup levels, such as a "pine" member has donated $5 in the past year, a "oak" member has given $10, a "walnut" member gave $25, "purpleheart" $50. Well, you get the idea. Maybe there could be a lifetime membership for a really large donation of say $1000. Otherwise the memberships expire after a year or 2 and you go back to just being a member. I like the idea of the shop tour section not being in the forum format at all, but rather setup like a photo gallery, with thumbnails that could be expanded. Viewers could leave public comments or PM the shop owner if they want. The shop tours would only be open to subscribers. I think that's a pretty good perk.

I think we've decided against a tier system, but we will have modify the user titles. Once things cool off a bit I will make a decision on how to handle recurring membership.

Keith Outten

10-12-2005, 6:49 AM

Andy,

You make some very valid points. Based on the generosity of our Members we will now be able to continue hosting The Creek without a mandatory subscription. We are now financially healthy and based on everyone's comments we need to assure that we stay that way.

At this point Aaron will have to come up with a suitable resolution to our Shop Tours questions. Remember we are not looking for a quick solution, something that is innovative and that will be worthy of our efforts is prefered.

An annual donations event might be the best bet, the rest of the year the Donate Button will be there for those who are just joining us and want to help us pay the bills. We will create a new designation for those who donate which is only fair and we hope will entice others to become sponsors as well.

Steve Jenkins

10-12-2005, 8:21 AM

[QUOTE=Aaron Koehl]Lee,

As soon as we can get more people using the "New Posts" link at the top of the screen, the different forums become an organizational tool for browsing and finding specific areas of interest. Think of the different forums not as separate entities, but as "browsable topics".

I use the "new posts" link and seldom even look at what forum the msg is actually in. I look at the subject and decide if I want to read it or not. As long as people are clear in the subject it doesn't really mater if there is one forum or 100.
When doing a search for a certain subject I go to the appropriate forum.

Frank Pellow

10-12-2005, 8:40 AM

I agree with Larry and we are seriously thinking about some kind of perk for those who donate. A steady flow of small donations would assure that we can continue on almost indefinately without ever having to ask or badger our Members for funds. A new designation for Members who support SMC is just around the corner, Jackie will start updating donors accounts shortly...what would you like the new title to be? Sponsor? GoldMember?

Sponsor sounds good to me.

Several of our Members have suggested a special forum that would allow donors to post items for sale, not classifieds exactly but items our members produce. Only those who donate could post in this forum, everyone would be able to view the forum obviously.

I don't see any benefit to having an "elite" forum like this and it may raise some resentment.

Frank, rather than another Forum for shop tours I like the idea of producing a list of shop tours with links to the thread, it accomplishes the same thing and requires very little effort. This could also be done for reviews as well.

That would work if the list was in a prominenet spot. It would also be good to provide a link to a member's shop tour (and, perhaps, ones to their project "gallery") in the member's profile.

I mentioned earlier that I like the idea of adding a new front page to SMC with links to each special section and one link to the Forums Main page.

Keith, I don't understand quite what you are proposing here.

Frank Pellow

10-12-2005, 8:46 AM

Keith, As far as donor title, how about a wood theme rather that metal. In stead of a "gold" member how about an "oak" member or "purpleheart" Maybe setup levels, such as a "pine" member has donated $5 in the past year, a "oak" member has given $10, a "walnut" member gave $25, "purpleheart" $50. Well, you get the idea. Maybe there could be a lifetime membership for a really large donation of say $1000. Otherwise the memberships expire after a year or 2 and you go back to just being a member... .
I don't like the levels designations. Among other things, this sounds away too complicated and arbitrary to me. I believe that a single designation for monitary contributors is quite enough.

Jeff Sudmeier

10-12-2005, 9:13 AM

I just wanted to say that I liked the spirit of this thread. You can tell that the SMC admins and mods really care about what the members think!

I do like the idea of a forum that can only be access by donating members. I belong to another forum that does this, and it really creates no hard feelings among other members, me being one of the ones that doesn't have access...

They set it up as a "subscription" you get a little icon under your name, showing that you donated. You have to pay your subscription every year to keep your icon and your access to the forum.

Anyway, no matter what is decided, I know this forum will continue to be a great place!

Aaron Koehl

10-12-2005, 9:18 AM

Aaron

I beg to differ with you.

Most people just like to click on one BB. I've seen too many forums slow down when split up. If it's not broke, why try to fix it?

Please do;

The forum is designed to be used with the New Posts feature, in which case, it doesn't matter which forum the particular thread is in.

As for slowing down, it will be the same speed no matter which forum the thread is in.

Aaron Koehl

10-12-2005, 9:21 AM

Jeff,

Thanks-- we really do care, not only as administrators and moderators, but also as members of the 'Creek ourselves.

I'm not sure a subscription-only forum would add very much value across our membership. We like to exclude the membership as little as possible, with the spirit of the 'Creek being information sharing.

Ken Fitzgerald

10-12-2005, 9:26 AM

Jason Roehl

10-12-2005, 9:32 AM

Aaron, I think Mr. Obie meant "slow down" in the sense of user participation, not speed of the server. I could be wrong, though. As for a change in member status, I couldn't care less. Whether I'm a "member", "Oak Member", "Sponsor" or whatever else people come up with, I'm here for the woodworking and the people, some of whom I've actually met in person. Without a definite promise of a member's status change, SMC's costs for well over a year were covered within a couple days, thanks to the fund drive John Bailey started. I did like the idea of keeping a graphic at the top of the forums page that shows the balance of SMC's funds so that members could see when they really needed to donate. Based on what I've seen, I'm sure that as soon as that number started to get low, there would be an alert member pointing it out, and many, many more rectifying the situation. Just some thoughts.

Frank Pellow

10-12-2005, 9:37 AM

...I did like the idea of keeping a graphic at the top of the forums page that shows the balance of SMC's funds so that members could see when they really needed to donate. Based on what I've seen, I'm sure that as soon as that number started to get low, there would be an alert member pointing it out, and many, many more rectifying the situation.
I, too, think that this is a great idea.

nic obie

10-12-2005, 2:22 PM

I agree,

excellent idea.

Brian Austin

10-12-2005, 4:57 PM

I'm not sure a subscription-only forum would add very much value across our membership. We like to exclude the membership as little as possible, with the spirit of the 'Creek being information sharing.
We had some of these same issues with our pilot's site (www.pilotsofamerica.com). As a Management Team, we decided to offer extras like bigger avatars, custom titles, pilotsofamerica.com e-mail addresses, etc.. Each one costs a different amount for a yearly subscription (generally $12/year).

We're also looking at some new features on the 3.5.x software as extras. We've got a beta site up right now, testing our extensive hacks, with a core group of testers.

Lee DeRaud

10-12-2005, 6:04 PM

...extras like bigger avatars...Uh, you say that like it's a good thing.:eek: :p

Aaron Koehl

10-13-2005, 12:38 PM

I'm working on it.. Jackie is entering numbers in profiles right now (they are hidden from view).

I'll write a script to display our funding on the home page.

Jim O'Dell

10-16-2005, 10:48 PM

Another two cents worth - I am not in favor of certain areas of, or privileges within, the creek being accessible only to donors. Nor am I in favor of creating a special caste system of identifying donors. And both for the same reason.

While the intentions of these suggestions are honorable and intended to respect the generosity of a small (?) percentage of contributors and lurkers; I fear that this will ultimately split the creek into fragments. Those that did and those that did not.

What makes this place so great is that:
It doesn't matter who or what you are
It doesn't matter whether you're a pro or novice
It doesn't matter whether you're brilliant or not
It doesn't matter whether you contribute or not
Everyone is always welcomed into the fray
Everyone becomes aware that their opinions or abilities are acknowledged to be valuable to all by all.Stepping away from this - to any degree - is an invitation to depart from what so obviously works so well and has made the creek such an exceptional and unique place.

Thanks for listening - Andy

I agree wholeheartedly with Andy, and felt it needed repeating. I didn't donate a few dollars to get special recognition, just to keep what we have alive and kicking. I believe that was the ONLY thought in everyone's minds last weekend. If sharing in the expense of this site will allow our administrators to add some neat things to it, that's great, I'm all for it. But I'd hate to limit the person that can't help out right now for whatever reason. I don't think the current membership would be bothered by extra perks contributing members might get, but I can see how a new member might feel... like they stepped into a new school, and everyone was laughing at their clothes. I would rather the new person to our forum be able to do all the things I can do here. WE might just be the ones that lose out on some outstanding contributions, ideas, or ideas from someone's shop pictures!! I think it would be very egotistical of us to think we had the best ideas out there, and the newcomer had nothing to contribute...on every level. Jim.

John Shuk

10-18-2005, 8:08 PM

My thought on giving people extras for financial help is this. People are people and they will soon assign a value to what they are paying. It would have to be a pretty big perk for many to be prompted to join the elite. I think that voluntary donation is the way to go. It worked this time and will again. I think that the 'Creek as a whole is where the value lies and people are willing to give to keep it around.
About the Shop Tours area...I'm happy with how things are now. It isn't to say that I wouldn't visit but it isn't a priority.

John Bailey

10-19-2005, 6:54 AM

I am of the opinion that funding this thread is much like the fund-raising I had to do while a high school principal. While the high pressure, take the form home to your parents, have all your aunts and uncles anti-up works sometimes (and is the norm that everyone hated), I always found the following formula worked on any project I was in charge of. I will offer this formula for the yearly operating expenses for the "Creek."

1. Tell people how much you need. (SMC yearly operating expenses)
2. Estimate how many people will donate. (Number of those that gave in the last "drive."
3. Divide #1 by #2. (Come up with a dollar figure)
4. Double #3. (Just in case, and besides, it looks as though it's going to be a low number.)
5. Provide a public way to let people know how it's going. (The icon idea)

I don't know how many people donated this time, but let's say it was 250. If we needed $1,500 for yearly operating expenses, we would need $6 per person. If we doubled that, we would have $3,000. This would be plenty for operating expenses, give a good margin just in case the donations didn't pan out, and leave some to pad the fund equity for emergencies. This works out to $1 a month and from the figures we've seen, it would be plenty. We do this at the beginning of the year and we're in business.

I don't see the need for a tiered system, but I wouldn't be opposed either. I like it the way it is, and I'll guarantee the people on this forum using the above formual will provide more than enough.

Just my thoughts, I'm sure whatever is done will work. That's the way it is when everyone has the same goal - keeping SMC the best.

John

Rich Konopka

10-19-2005, 6:33 PM

Keep it simple. There could be an annual fundraising drive to keep the Creek from going dry.

or ...

I would rather try to use the clout from all the members in persuading vendors to give special discounts, promotions, raffles, auctions (benefits to SMC)WW tip rewards etc... This would be a special forumn that would be open to Honorary Creekers where they can partake. Being and Honorary member would be approximately $10/year. Which is less than a buck a month and worth far more than any WW magazine.

The vendors in return for their promotional items can have a dedicated forum where they can post information on products, reviews, flyers, sales etc.... which would be open to all members and lurkers. This would be the only forum where commercial interests could be posted and it would be at the viewers discretion to visit there if they like that kind of stuff or they don't.

Just my 2 cents !!