5 in 1 combos which is best?

[Joe Koren]

Hi,

I am a new member and am looking at purchasing a new or used 5 in 1 combo. I have been looking at the Hammer C3-31, Mini-Max CU300 Smart, the Rojek KPF 300A, and the Laguna X31. The only article that I have found comparing those machines was a couple year old article from Fine Woodworking. The article favored the MiniMax and trashed the Laguna (mostly for the table tops being dinged by as much as a 1/16th of an inch). I don't want to base my whole purchasing decision on one article, so if anyone has used any of these machines or has used more than one I would love an opinion. Thanks in advance.

Joe

[Bernie Weishapl]

Joe can't help you with info but wanted to welcome you to Creek. It is a fine place and you will get a answer.

[Mike Waddell]

Hi Joe -

I can only provide you with hands-on feedback on the CU300Smart, but I can tell you that I have not regretted the purchase for one minute. The machine is solid, well built, and adjustable. EVERYTHING is adjustable. It has plenty of power for everything that I can throw at it, and it is accurate beyond any other cabinet saw that I have used, not to mention safer (my opinions here, I have not done a formal study).

I looked at a couple of the other units you mention, but felt pretty strongly after only a short time that the Minimax was a better buy. The only other contender for me was the Felder, which I found to be slightly more refined. However, when I looked at what I was going to use the machine for, and then factored in the fact that I could have more for less with the Minimax, it was an easy call to go with the Minimax.

Again, these are my opinions only and I hope that many others chime in with their thoughts. Any way that you go, I don't think you'll regret the move to a combination machine. Feel free to email with any specific questions that you have.

Good luck,

Mike

[Charlie Plesums]

I have the larger MiniMax CU410 Elite, and absolutely love it. When I was evaluating, the reports I got on the Rojek and Robland (Laguna) X31 were that they were ok machines but you might spend as much time aligning them as using them. The Felder was more expensive - I thought of the Austrian engineering (and complexity) as BMW like, compared to the MiniMax being more like a GM (models from Chevy to Cadillac). I did not check out the Hammer (economy line from Felder).

I aligned my MiniMax saw when I got it in January, and have not aligned it since. Last week I cut a sheet of plywood, and happened to check - it was off 1/32 inch in the 8 feet. So I started the alignment procedure, and found it off less than .001 inch in 8 feet and 4 right angle cuts. (Not bad for almost daily use for 10 months). To figure out why the error, I went back to the sheet of plywood with the problem, and found a slight warp - when I held it flat, it trimmed the 1/32 off, leaving the plywood a perfect rectangle. I love that precision.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Joe, welcome to the creek! YOu have joined a wonderful forum!

Good luck on your search for the combo!

[Chris Barton]

I too, am considering a purchase like this. I have dug and dug to find reviews and would suggest you try a google search of the term "Robland X31 review" and you will find a few hits. I also saw the FWW article and thought that some of the comments they made about the X31 were trivial. Considering you get a 10" sliding table saw, shaper, slot morticer, 12" jointer and 12" planer in one machine with 3 motors, at a price that is exceptional you might want to get a better look at this machine. It is currently on the top of my list because of price and because all of the reviews outside of FWW have been rather good. Piar this with the fact that Laguna is currently offering a combination package of the x31 and the Laguna LT16HD for $7K. This is thousands less than the next nearest competitor in the combo unit alone. Best of luck!

[Martin Shupe]

I don't own any of these, but I wish I did.

I have used the Felder line at Kelly Mehler's school. Kelly Mehler is the Subject Matter Expert on tablesaw safety. He even wrote the book.

If I had the bucks, I'd go with Felder. If I could not afford the Felder, I'd go with the Hammer line (Felder's economy line).

Kelly will answer your questions at kellymehler.com (He also has a great school.)

[Frank Pellow]

Speaking of Kelly Mehler (as Martin was), Kelly wrote an extensive review of the:


Rojek 330A
Hammer C3-31
Felder 731
Mini-Max CU 300
Knapp 310
Robland NLX-31
In the December 2003 issue of Woodworkers Journal.

Oh yes I must not forget: Welcome to Saw Mill Creek Joe.

[Michael Sloan]

Hi Joe,

You will love the combination machine. As far as I am concerned, the 5 function machines are the best bang for the buck, and provides the most capability per square foot of shop space required of any power woodworking equipment out there.

I have a Minimax CU300S, which I am very happy with. I love the precision and repeatability of the Minimax, as well as the customer service provided by Minimax.

My machine is two years old, and out of warranty, but when I recently posted a question about a rough outrigger travel on the Minimax User Group website, I got instant feedback from both my sales rep, and the MM technical expert about the problem. I needed to clean the bearings inside of the support arm. With the guidance provided by MM, this proved to be a straight forward maintenance task.

Actually, this experience illustrates two points: The first is great service from the vendor. The second is the elegance of the Minimax design that allows someone like me to easily resolve this type of problem without the need to call in a service tech, or to be a mechanical wiz myself.

With respect to your list of alternatives, to a certain degree, you get what you pay for. The Laguna is a lot less expensive, but seems to lack the repeatability and precision and capability of the MM. Also, while I understand that there is a Robland users group that you can go to for help, I suspect that it is much easier to get help from the MM Owners Group, or from MM itself.

I might consider the Hammer, which I understand to have been redesigned and upgraded recently. However, I have had serious customer service issues with Felder on some tooling purchases, and personally would not want to be beholden to them for help. That's just my personal experience of course, I see good customer service stories about Felder over on the Felder Owner's Group (FOG) website, so maybe they care more about their big ticket customers.

I looked at the Rojek briefly when I bought my MM, and decided that MM was slightly better and more refined. Also, I was unimpressed with the the Rojek sales responsiveness, and was afraid of a lack of future support. Never did see the Rojek though, so can't provide a substantive comparison of the machines.

Best of Luck.
Mike

[Steve Wargo]

Check out the Laguna Message Boards. There are tons of information on them, as well as some great deals on combo machines that are for sale by owners.

[Mike Laing]

Hi Joe,
Well I have been were you are. The choice that you came up with is a good one, I have seen the CU300 smart up close and it looks like a fine machine and you will love the tersa heads (it takes roughly 10 minutes to change the knives in your jointer and planer in one go). The MM is configured right out of the box to be a well powered and accurate tool.

When you go with Felder you are paying for refinement and heavier materials in constrution of the basic machine and A VERY LARGE LIST OF OPTIONS, this, if it is important to you, is where the Felder really shines. I have a Felder CF741P which is comparable to a MM CU410 elite.

While the MM CU410 elite would have certainly done the job for me, the service I got from Felder (in Canada) was better and some of the Felder options could not be had on the MM.

Good luck in your purchase and you are on the right track.

Mike Laing

[Paul Canaris]

It sounds like your wrestling with the same decision I made several years ago, I purchased the Robland X-31 in 2001 and sold it in 2004 as there were a few aspects of it's performance I could not live with. The design has since changed, and may have addressed a few of the issues that bothered me most, can’t say for sure.I ended up with a partial combination approach as it provided for me the best value with minimal usage headaches.I purchased a Knapp Profi-T which is a 10” sliding TS with a shaper built in. I then purchased a separate Jointer and Planer. This largely eliminated one of my peeves with 5-1 units which is the switchover from one function to the next.The Mini-Max is a good unit, you will be very happy.

[markus shaffer]

Joe,

I don't have a full combo, but I do have a Felder saw/shaper and a jointer/planer. You've gotten good advice so far, and I can only say that you're on the right track. If you look around, you'll see that there are a lot of the Laguna/Robland machines for sale out there. While I'm not interested in trashing those machines, I will say that there is usually a reason that so many of these machines end up on the used market. Being that you're in New Jersey, you should make an appointment to visit the Felder showroom in Delaware to see the Hammer line. When I was in the market to buy my machines, I did look at everything out there and concluded for my needs it was going to be Minimax or Felder.

I ended up going with Felder in the end partly because of the proximity to the showroom. The customer service I received during my initial purchase wasn't the best, but they did work hard to rectify the mistakes that were made. Unfortunately since then, I cannot say that I have been overly pleased with their service. I tried to order a few accessories recently and could not get anyone from the Delaware showroom to call me back. Finally I called the Sacramento showroom and was taken care of promptly. The box arrived from Delaware though. I will say the actual technical service from Felder is excellent. I did have an electrical switch problem on my saw and a technician stayed on the phone with me for nearly an hour and talked me through figuring out what the problem was and how to put a jumper over the faulty switch so that I could use my machine. Within two days I had a new switch and all has been fine since.

The Felder Owners Group on Yahoo is a great resource for information on the Felder and Hammer lines. There is also a Minimax group as well. I suggest you look into both as you'll get a better feel for each of the lines of those machines because you'll be talking to actual owners.

Despite my lack of confidence in the sales help from Felder, I can say that I've been nothing but pleased with my machines. There are a few things that I would suggest regardless of what you go with. Get the biggest slider you can house/afford on the saw. I got an 8 foot slider on mine and while I can rip an 8 foot sheet of plywood, the slider stops halfway through the blade. It would be nicer for the material to clear the blade. Also, get the biggest jointer/planer you can. I know that the Felders are limited in width, but going from an 8 inch jointer to a 20 inch has been amazing. Maybe you don't use wood that wide, but I often run boards in the 16"-18" range. No matter what the cost, get a motorized lift for your planer. Everytime you switch between the jointer and planer, you have to lower the planer bed all the way down. You don't want to crank that by hand every time. The other thing to consider is dust collection. Will your current system be able to handle the needs of the machine you get? Also consider power needs of the machine. I think both the Minimax and Hammer lines offer their machines in single phase power. Both of my machines are three phase, but it's not an issue as I have it supplied to my shop. You may need to factor in the cost of a phase converter.

Lastly, get as much information on all the available accessories. There are some things that are pretty important depending on what sort of work you will be doing. Some things are redundant or not necessary at all. No matter what, they start adding up and what seems like an affordable investment in the beginning soon balloons into a hefty sum that you didn't quite anticipate.

If you have any other questions feel free to email me. If you're in the NYC area anytime soon, let me know and we could arrange for you to come by and see the machines I have.

-Markus

[John Renzetti]

Hi Joe, The "best" combination machine for you, whether it be Felder, Knapp, Hammer, MM, Rojek, Robland is the one that has whatever features functions options etc that you find important and at the price you are confortable in paying. I have owned Felder equipment for 8 yrs. I can highly recommend it. I also know some guys and women who make some beautiful furniture and cabinets on the other machines.
Go see the machines in action and check out what they are offering now. I was never a big fan of the Hammer line by Felder. However last April I had the chance to test out and run extensively the new Hammer line for 2005. I was able to work with the Hammer all summer. I was impressed.
You might also want to consider two machines. A saw/shaper and a jointer/planer. You'll get a little more versatility at a slightly higher cost. The additional room required is minimal. You also might find that with two machines you could end up with two different manufacturers.
take care and have fun shopping.
John

[Mike Weaver]

... However last April I had the chance to test out and run extensively the new Hammer line for 2005. I was able to work with the Hammer all summer. I was impressed.


John,
Just curious - what is it that you do that gave you THAT great opportunity?

Cheers,
-Mike

[Joe Koren]

Speaking of Kelly Mehler (as Martin was), Kelly wrote an extensive review of the:


Rojek 330A
Hammer C3-31
Felder 731
Mini-Max CU 300
Knapp 310
Robland NLX-31
In the December 2003 issue of Woodworkers Journal.

Oh yes I must not forget: Welcome to Saw Mill Creek Joe.


I searched the issues that I have and do not have that issue. Could you summarize the findings for me.

From looking at the responses so far, it appears to me that the Mini Max and the Felder are the choices. I will admit that I have heard very little good things about the Laguna.

I was also intersted in the Hammer. I was told via email by there representative that "The combination machine article you referenced in FWM is a couple of years old and since then we have relaunched the Hammer line with numerous upgrades which addressed all of the shortcomings noted in that article. "

Does anyone have a new C3 31?

Thanks,
Joe

[John Renzetti]

John,
Just curious - what is it that you do that gave you THAT great opportunity?

Cheers,
-Mike

Hi Mike, Easy, they asked me. It's also convenient that the airport I fly out of, is only 10 minutes from Felder HQ in DE. The idea was to get an early look and perspective from a typical operator's view. I ran it in April and in May during the open house. I tried to run it from the point of view of "let's see if this thing can do this." Actually did this in front of attendees at the open house, unrehersed, probably much to the chagrin of Felder. But the machine did well. Also from running the Hammer I was able to find some little things that the engineers missed. From the emails I've received from the factory, they made the recommended changes. Did some more work this summer and even got a movie contract of it. :)
I think the Hammer will be a good competitve machine. And competition brings on more improvements that benefit everybody.
take care,
John

[Jim Becker]

I own some MiniMax equipment and am very pleased with it. For me, I'd likely choose either MM or Felder (or a Felder affiliate brand) for any additional "new" big iron I'd by. I'd also point out that Marcus's post suggests one alternative to consider...a saw/shaper combo and a jointer/planer/mortiser combo in lieu of a full five function combo. The reason I bring it up is that some folks find that combo fits the way they work better...me included. Either way has the same end result however...great gear that will last several lifetimes.

[Frank Pellow]

I searched the issues that I have and do not have that issue. Could you summarize the findings for me.

OK, I just typed in Kelly's concluding paragraph:

Combination machines are well worth looking into for their high quality, safety features, and space efficiency. All of these combination machines are excellent tools that have no glaring shortcomings. The Austrians come out on top for most sophisticated tooling and closest tolerances. There was a noticeable difference in the fit and finish on nearly every part of the Knapp, Felder, and Hammer compared to the other combos. As their prices reflect, the Felder and Knapp are in a different league. If prices were the same, I would choose a Knapp, which is a bit more industrial in design and execution. The Felder seemed to have the best combination of quality, price, and performance. The rest of the pack are very close in price and performance. The Mini-Max and the Hammer rise to the top of my list, where a flip of the coin could easily make my decision.



... I will admit that I have heard very little good things about the Laguna.

The machine sold by Laguna is the Robland. If it is Laguana that you are concerned about, rather then the Robland machine, I think that you can get the Robland from other souces. I know that I can do so here in Canada.

[Mike Weaver]

Hi Mike, Easy, they asked me. It's also convenient that the airport I fly out of, is only 10 minutes from Felder HQ in DE. The idea was to get an early look and perspective from a typical operator's view. I ran it in April and in May during the open house. I tried to run it from the point of view of "let's see if this thing can do this." Actually did this in front of attendees at the open house, unrehersed, probably much to the chagrin of Felder. But the machine did well. Also from running the Hammer I was able to find some little things that the engineers missed. From the emails I've received from the factory, they made the recommended changes. Did some more work this summer and even got a movie contract of it. :)
I think the Hammer will be a good competitve machine. And competition brings on more improvements that benefit everybody.
take care,
John

John,
That's awesome that you could take time out to go demo a machine a couple of times!!

I don't personally know any pros that have that kind of free time.
My friends in the biz don't even get on the computer much less go "play" with new cool stuff.

I'm not a pro at woodworking and I still don't have that kind of free time. :eek:

To quote Napolean Dynamite: "Lucky..."

Agreed, competition benefits everyone.

Cheers,
-Mike
PS Any major machine manufacturers out there want me to come demo machines? I'm all ears... :D

[John Renzetti]

[QUOTE=Mike Weaver]John,
That's awesome that you could take time out to go demo a machine a couple of times!!

I don't personally know any pros that have that kind of free time.
My friends in the biz don't even get on the computer much less go "play" with new cool stuff.

I'm not a pro at woodworking and I still don't have that kind of free time. :eek:

Hi Mike, I'm not a professional woodworker either. I fly airplanes for a living.
take care,
John

[Frank Pellow]

Speaking of Kelly Mehler (as Martin was), Kelly wrote an extensive review of the:

Rojek 330A
Hammer C3-31
Felder 731
Mini-Max CU 300
Knapp 310
Robland NLX-31
In the December 2003 issue of Woodworkers Journal.

Based on some private email I recieved, I tried to find a way to order past issues or to see old articles online at Woodworkers Journal web site and could not find any way to do so. So, I scanned in the article. If anyone would like a copy of what I scanned, please send me private email and I will tell you how to obtain it.