Good thickness for a panel?

[Kees Heiden]

I'm building a joined chest. It'll have panels in M&T frames. The panels will be flat on the visible side and beveled on the inside. All of them are flatswan so they love to cup for the rest of their life. They sit in grooves in a sturdy construction so the cupping will be constrained.

How thick would you make them? 1/2"?

[Pat Barry]

I'm building a joined chest. It'll have panels in M&T frames. The panels will be flat on the visible side and beveled on the inside. All of them are flatswan so they love to cup for the rest of their life. They sit in grooves in a sturdy construction so the cupping will be constrained.

How thick would you make them? 1/2"?
Kees, What are the panel sizes though? If they are very large I might want to go 3/4" thickness

[George Bokros]

Need more info. How thick are the frames? Are the panels going into grooves or rabbets?

If you are using kiln dried stock cupping will be minimal if at all. I have many raised panel doors I made out of flat sawn oak, some ten yrs old, and have not experienced any cupping.

[Kees Heiden]

The rails are 1" thick. The styles (legs of the chest) are much thicker. Panels about 8" x17". The wood is not killn dried but acclimatised to my shop. It will be dryer in the house. Panels sit in grooves.

[Kees Heiden]

Oh and the wood is European cherry.

[Brian Holcombe]

3/8" tapered to 1/4" at the edges.

1/2" is heavy, I only use 1/2" for structural panels like when I build doors with dovetailed battens.

Thin material lives a happier life and doesn't warp your frame so easily.

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks Brian. I'll send them through the thicknesser.

[David Eisenhauer]

I like thinner panels as well. Only issue I've had is when I once took the thickness down in unequal amounts for each side of a panel and that was fixable when I clamped the panel down flat to my benchtop for a few days while I worked on other stuff. I usually take equal amounts off each side, but one side on this one did not want to plane very easily as compared to the other side, plus my original plan of a final thickness of 1/2" got changed to 3/8" - 5/16" somewhere along the way. I also now automatically clamp my panel(s) down flat to a surface until I am ready to install them into the frame.

[Brian Holcombe]

That is a good idea David. I'm particular about that, and so if I know I won't need a panel for a while I'll try and leave some material so that I can joint and thickness again. I stack them with the end grain up (lean against a wall) so that moisture can come off of both long grain sides equally.

I had one divider that would cup toward anything you placed it on, like magic. Put it on the bench, cups, turn it upside down, flattened out....it was bizarre.

[Kees Heiden]

The panels are now 1/2" thick and I stacked them with spacers and a weight on top, so they can equalise a bit, while I still have some thickness to play with.

I had a brainwave and looked at some antique cabinets in my home.

An oak cabinet, 17th century style, probably made in the 19th with some old elements, has nice quartersawn panels, very thin, about 1/4". One panel has acrack, so I could meassure it.

A pine cabinet, looks like late 19th century has a cutout in the doors, so I can meassure. It is almost 1/2".

So, there is quite some variation!

[Tony Wilkins]

The panels are now 1/2" thick and I stacked them with spacers and a weight on top, so they can equalise a bit, while I still have some thickness to play with.

I had a brainwave and looked at some antique cabinets in my home.

An oak cabinet, 17th century style, probably made in the 19th with some old elements, has nice quartersawn panels, very thin, about 1/4". One panel has acrack, so I could meassure it.

A pine cabinet, looks like late 19th century has a cutout in the doors, so I can meassure. It is almost 1/2".

So, there is quite some variation!

You mean there was as much variation in technique and opinion in centuries past as today?! Who would have thunk it ;). Carry on...

[Derek Cohen]

The panels are now 1/2" thick and I stacked them with spacers and a weight on top, so they can equalise a bit, while I still have some thickness to play with.

I had a brainwave and looked at some antique cabinets in my home.

An oak cabinet, 17th century style, probably made in the 19th with some old elements, has nice quartersawn panels, very thin, about 1/4". One panel has acrack, so I could meassure it.

A pine cabinet, looks like late 19th century has a cutout in the doors, so I can meassure. It is almost 1/2".

So, there is quite some variation!

Hi Kees

I had a similar issue to deal with when designing and building the Shaker style kitchen doors I am completing. In my case, the decision was compounded by the availability of the Hard Maple, its cost, and speed to build the doors (I'm trying to do it all in a coupe of weeks). For example, if the panels were 1/2" thick, as opposed to 1/4" thick, this would require twice the wood (obviously) but also complicate the joinery and availability of the rough sawn boards (what I have are 8 - 10" wide). The panels must be book-matched, so there is a lot of waste. The groove for the panels in the frames is 1/4" (using a slot cutting router bit), which means that a 1/2" panel will require rebating while a 1/4" panel fits straight in. A 1/2" panel is less likely to drum than a 1/4" panel, but may be too heavy. The frame is 2-1/4" wide and 3/4" thick Hard Maple, which is stiff and solid regardless of the panel dimensions.

In the end I decided to go with 1/4" thick panel. I reasoned that, if the panels did drum, I could glue on a 3/16" thick veneer on the inside, and this would not require book-matching since it would not be visible. So far so good with the doors - they are not that large and the frames appear to be fortifying them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

My kitchen has doors 24 mm thick with 10 mm panels. They fit in 10 mm grooves. This hasn't been too heavy for Blum hinges, but I did choose the version for thick doors. But that's more to do with neccesary clearance then for the weight if I remember correctly.

[Derek Cohen]

Kees, those are very thick frames in my experience. All the frame-and-panel kitchen doors I have seen are 3/4 (19mm) thick. Is that common in Holland? Others here?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

No it's not common but also not unusual for real wood.

[Derek Cohen]

"real wood" ... ?

Is there another type here? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

MDF or particleboard is used on 99% of all kitchen cabinets (I guess...)

[Warren Mickley]

I usually use 7/8 thickness for cabinet doors. This is a very common thickness for traditional work. The range is 13/16 (kind of thin) to 15/16 (kind on the thick side). I usually consider doors with 3/4 thickness lower quality work.

For flat panels like you are making I usually range from 3/8 to 5/8. I have made 1/4 inch panels before, but as you have noted, Kees, they can break. Most vulnerable are wide flat sawn panels; they split along the radial surface at the center of the figure, where the radial surface is perpendicular to the face of the board. For 8 inch wide panels like you are making I would probably resaw a rough one inch board, plane the resawn surfaces flat, and bevel what is left to fit in the grooves. The panel does not have to be carefully thicknessed. I would pick 7/16 to 1/2 over 3/8.

[Jerry Olexa]

I tend to favor a thicker panel (3/4" plus) esp when a raised panel in M/T frame..Just my experience.

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks Warren. I should have said this chest is going to be in 17 th century fasion with some carving on the front panels. Somewhat thicker ( like your dimensions) seem more appopriate then my 19 th century cabinets.

[Graham Haydon]

Derek, there is now a great range of "euro hinges" and similar fittings to suit many different door thicknesses. Having to make everything 18mm is much less of a constraint than it used to be. Although integrated appliances should be checked for suitability.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Graham

I am using the existing euro hinges in the kitchen cabinets. Perhaps I did not made it clear earlier on, but the kitchen rebuild involves replacing the doors (and a few minor extra). The kitchen was built by a specialist kitchen company, with solid wood doors and trim. I have used this as a template for the new stuff, which means keeping the thicknesses for the frames as well. The old doors used 19mm x 60mm frames, and these have been solid performers for over 20 years. I am expecting, when all is done, to unscrew the old doors and replace directly with the new ones. It's been a lot of work, but not exactly complex stuff (except for the trim, which has involved a few compound angles).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Graham Haydon]

Sounds great Derek! Look forward to seeing some photos when it's all done.