Dead car any mechanics

[Bert Kemp]

a little history 2003 Honda Element bought used about a year ago. Car alway started kinda sluggish but would start. after a couple months the battery would die, I'd charge battery the it would be ok for a couple weeks then die again. I bought a new battery fine for a week then the same thing started again. I took battery back had it replaced and it was fine for about 6 months then today I went to use car and battery was dead again, or so it seems. I put the charger on at 9 this morning and just now at 5pm went to see if it would start and NOTHING no clic cli clic nothing. BUT the battery seems to have a full charge. Lights are bright, they don't dim when I turn key something weird going on. meter says battery at 13.6 so any idea's

[Dimitrios Fradelakis]

Sounds like it might be the alternator. Not too difficult to replace on your own.

[Mike Henderson]

For this problem, where the starter won't turn over the engine - and you know the battery is good - it has to be either the starter motor is gone, or the relay that switches power to the starter motor is not working.

Much less likely the key switch could be bad and not engaging for starting.

Mike

[Brent Cutshall]

If this were a carbureted engine, I'd think something was shorting out in the wiring and draining the battery or something's wrong with a ground somewhere. You could check the ignition setup too. But I really don't know that much about fuel injection engines, I'll hafta get to it sometime.

[Wayne Lomman]

Pull out the starter and get it checked. This is the most likely problem. Any half decent auto electrician will tell you on the spot and rebuild or supply a new one. The sluggish starting from day 1 is the clue for me. Cheers

[Pat Barry]

The first thing I would do is check the simplest thing which is the connections to the battery. Don't just look, take each of them off, check for corrosion, clean them and re-attach and test. Poor connections are often the source of all these problems.

[Michael Dye]

The continuing destruction of the battery would lead me to believe you have a grounding issue. Hook a voltmeter to the battery and watch it for a few hours. If you have something pulling power it will certainly show up on the voltmeter. As a test, hook the meter up and then turn on the headlights. You will see a steady drain until you turn the lights off. Of course, all of this is done with the engine off and ignition off. If you see that the drain on the battery stops, start looking for a bad ground, perhaps engine to chassis. Good luck, electrical issues are never easy.

[Steve Peterson]

The easiest check that I use is to turn on an interior light and watch it dim as you start the engine. In normal operation, the light dims slightly. If the light goes all the way out, then you have a dead battery or a weak connection to the battery. If the light stays bright, then you might have a bad starter or solenoid.

Steve

[Bert Kemp]

The first thing I would do is check the simplest thing which is the connections to the battery. Don't just look, take each of them off, check for corrosion, clean them and re-attach and test. Poor connections are often the source of all these problems.


BUT the battery seems to have a full charge. Lights are bright, they don't dim when I turn key something weird going on. meter says battery at 13.6 so any idea's

[Art Mann]

Sounds like the starter solenoid or starter itself to me.

[Stephen Tashiro]

Sounds like the starter solenoid or starter itself to me.

I agree. It's a guess, but it would be my guess. However, the simplest thing to try first is to temporarily hook-up a known-to-be-good battery and see what happens.

Some cars have wires or terminals in the engine compartment that can be used to by-pass the relays and connect the starter directly to the battery. I have had "bad" starters that would work with the presumably higher current they get that way.

Starters make a click but relays are quieter. Find out where the starter relay is in the engine compartment and make sure you don't hear it click.

[Gordon Eyre]

The starter motor is fairly easy to take off so I would start there. When you get it off take it to an electrical motor shop and they will tell you quickly if it is bad. A rebuild is much cheaper than a new one if it is in fact bad. If it is not bad then check the cable feeding the starter motor and the starter solenoid. If the connections are all good then I would suspect the a problem with the key switch. I would probably take my car to the dealer service department to have that checked out. Best wishes for a solution.

[Myk Rian]

Why not take the car to the auto parts store and have them test the battery and charging system?
Seems to me the voltage regulator may be bad.

[Gordon Eyre]

The starter motor is fairly easy to take off so I would start there. When you get it off take it to an electrical motor shop and they will tell you quickly if it is bad. A rebuild is much cheaper than a new one if it is in fact bad. If it is not bad then check the cable feeding the starter motor and the starter solenoid. If the connections are all good then I would suspect a problem with the key switch. I would probably take my car to the dealer service department to have that checked out. Best wishes for a solution.

[David L Morse]

Another thing to look for would be lockout switches on the gear selector or brake pedal. I'm not familiar with Fords but neither of my two GMs will start if they're not in park or neutral. You should be able to find a schematic for your car via google.

[Bert Kemp]

Can't take it anywhere if it doesn't start. Had a brand new battery about 6 months ago alt and bat checked out fine


Why not take the car to the auto parts store and have them test the battery and charging system?
Seems to me the voltage regulator may be bad.

[Jim Koepke]

This sounds like you have at least two problems to solve.

First is why does the battery go dead.

The second problem is more recent of the car not turning over.

It is difficult to troubleshoot your car from a keyboard a few thousand miles away. Just the same this is what I would do. For the battery drain I would use an amp meter in series with the battery to either the ground or the hot terminal. Most modern cars will have a very light flow, less than 100 ma, of current to run the clock and keep your radio station selections in memory. In the old days when there wasn't any of this we would just lift a battery cable and see if there was a spark when we touched it back to the battery terminal. If there was a spark, or in the case of a modern car excessive current flow, the fuses would be removed one by one to find which circuit was causing the drain.

For troubleshooting a starter, there are a few things to do before climbing under the car to do the dirty work of removing the starter motor. First would be to find the starter solenoid and see if it is easy to bridge the battery connection to the starter output. In many cases it is possible to do with a screwdriver or pliers. Make sure the car is in park or neutral before doing this as if the starter is good it will engage and crank the engine. If this works, the next step is to find where the key switch connects to the solenoid. If applying power to this cranks the engine then the problem is toward the key and the enabling circuit through the gear selector. If it doesn't work, then it is likely the solenoid.

If you have a decent meter, you can also check for voltage across the solenoids biggest connections. One comes from the battery, the other to the solenoid. With the key off it should read close to full voltage. With the key in the start position the voltage should drop to almost zero. Pitted contacts in the solenoid will cause a higher voltage reading.

This reminds me of a car I purchased second hand. It didn't occur to me that the car wouldn't start without the clutch pedal fully depressed until my son couldn't get the car to start. I was taught to always depress the clutch when starting a car. He learned to drive on an automatic shift.

Much more than this and I will have to charge you airfare and other expenses along with an hourly rate. :D

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Lights are one thing, they run about a few amps. Starting the car requires 500 amps. If you have bad connections there is no way that you can start the car. Just check the connections first. MUCH EASIER than anything else. If they are good then you can move on to the starter soldenoid

[Bill Orbine]

Lights are one thing, they run about a few amps. Starting the car requires 500 amps. If you have bad connections there is no way that you can start the car. Just check the connections first. MUCH EASIER than anything else. If they are good then you can move on to the starter soldenoid

This is the right initial diagnosis.... check the wiring and connections before anything else. If you know how to use a meter, you can read into the issues if you know to use the logics of the readings and placement of the probes. There is much more than to determine continuity and voltages when using the meter.

[Robert Delhommer Sr]

Sounds like your alternator is not charging properly if at all.

[Jim Andrew]

Should print off some of these posts! When I have a vehicle that will not start, first thing I do is clean the battery posts. Have had a car that had a poor ground, it would start, but the headlights were dim. Had to replace the starter on my Ranger pu a month ago, starter was shot. Got a replacement from NAPA. Should add, checked battery first, it appeared to be no good, but under warranty, so installed a new one. Started one time, drove to the neighbors, and it would not start again. THEN new starter.

[Greg Peterson]

The primary issue at hand is the starting system, not the charging system (alternator).
!. Open hood
2. Check battery connections for looseness, corrosion, poor connection, anything that would otherwise restrict or prevent full power delivery to the starter motor.
4. Check connection at starter. Remove cable and check cable for secure and solid integration with eyelet that mounts to power post on starter.
3. Remove starter and have it tested.

Dollars to donuts it is a bad starter.

Why is the battery draining? Almost certainly not the charging system (alternator). Most likely a ground issue.

[Bert Kemp]

I took the battery and had it tested ITs good and fully charged, the alt puts out 14.6 last time I checked it .I'm thinking you guys saying starter are closer to the problem. I'm not capable of checking it or taking it out. So guess I have to have someone come tow it to a shop. Thanks for all the replies. was hoping a simple cheap fix, so much for hope LOL

[Lee Schierer]

Have you cleaned the inside of the battery cable clamps? A layer of corrosion would prevent the battery from being charged and prevent sufficient start current to be drawn from the battery even if the battery has a full charge. Check the positive connection to the starter relay and the ground connection to the frame make sure they are clean and tight. Check the fusible link to make sure it is okay. If you have a volt meter, with the car battery connected, check the voltage at the contact on the starter solenoid on the battery side to ground. It should read over 12 volts. If in doubt replace the 13 year old battery cables with new ones.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Also might be the ignition switch. I agree to check the connections and clean the terminals first. Next run a jumper to the solenoid. If it doesn't start- bad solenoid/starter. If it starts then it's in the connection from starter to ignition: faulty wire, faulty switch, or faulty shift or brake lock-out switch.

[Jerome Stanek]

Had a similar problem and it was the cable from the battery to the starter solenoid. looked good but it was corroded inside

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Urgent note: make sure you have the key in the ignition before trying to jump to the solenoid. Many new cars- especially Ford- have a security feature that will shut down the logic module if you try to Hotwire it. (Guess how I know this!). I forgot to mention this in my above post.

[Bert Kemp]

Thanks all Terminals were I clean I never let them get dirty, not sure about the starter tho LOL , can't do anything until Tuesday now Busy Day tomorrow

[Bruce Wrenn]

Check the ground connection to the engine block. Lights are grounded through the body ground connection, so they would work in engine ground was bad. One starter test we do is to tap (knock hard) with a mallet on starter.

[Bert Kemp]

If I can find the starter I'll try that


Check the ground connection to the engine block. Lights are grounded through the body ground connection, so they would work in engine ground was bad. One starter test we do is to tap (knock hard) with a mallet on starter.

[Kev Williams]

We have juice to the lights.
No juice to the starter.
Lets work backwards:

If there WAS juice to the starter, AND the battery cable connection was bad, then just trying to start it would finish the disconnect there would be no power...
For now, battery connection seems ok

IF there is power to the starter solenoid, the starter solenoid should clack or click
-solenoid does nothing.
IF the solenoid does nothing but is otherwise energized in the start position and it's seized, it would very much dim the lights.
-lights don't dim

So this means:

the solenoid connection is compromised,
OR-the solenoid is bad within itself, burnt contacts or broken inside,
OR-the solenoid may broken---it happens, and this will result in a totally dead key--
351275

OR- the solenoid isn't getting power at all in the START position.

This means some voltage tests need to be taken.

On the solenoid, first check the battery LINE IN wire, it's the broken one in my pic. The one directly below is LOAD OUT to the starter motor. The LINE IN should ALWAYS have power, as it should be directly connected to the battery.
IF no volts, THEN check the battery to starter wire and connection(s)..
IF yes volts, then:

check the low amp 'trigger' wire for power with the key in the START position. If there's 2 low amp wires, one will be ground, If no power on one, check the other.
IF no power on the trigger wire,
THEN- either the wire or connection is faulty,
OR the starter relay is faulty,
OR the ignition switch is faulty.

When it gets to this point, finding which relay is the starter relay and just replacing it is the easiest way to troubleshoot, UNLESS you're willing to figure out which wire is the starter HOT wire off the ignition switch in the jungle of wiring under the dash. If you are and can find it, it should show volts in the start position.

As for your drain, it sounds like driving it doesn't charge the battery, meaning bad alternator or voltage regulator. You could also have a faulty stereo's memory eating too much power, or maybe a light is on somewhere all the time. My wife's Mustang's GPS display decided to not shut off one day. I've pulled it's fuse AND the main power plug an it STILL draws power constantly because the memory input is separate.

Anyway, car electrical issues suck, good luck!

[Frederick Skelly]

Totally unrelated comment...... every time I see the title of this thread come up on the screen, it reads as "Dead car mechanics" and I go "What the heck??? Oh. Yeah. That's right." :D

Sure hope your problem gets resolved quickly Bert. Car trouble stinks.

Fred

[Bert Kemp]

Well I had time to day to look for the starter , I could look down a very narrow opening in the exhaust manifold and see it down there. So I found a piece of threaded rod 1/4" that would fit thru that opening and reach the starter. Had my neighbor turn key while I tapped on the rod with a mallet and guess what ? It started . It turned over real slow at first but then caught and turn quick enough to start. Took it to the shop and told him what I did and he said he'd check it out and do what needed to be done. So hopefully in a few days I have a running car again and no bank account.:D Thanks everyone for all the suggestions they worked :D

[Ronald Blue]

Sounds like you have two problems. An excessive drain on the electrical system and a starter issue. Have the mechanic look into that battery drain issue as well. A starter that cranks slowly and picks up speed indicates a draggy starter. The battery drain issue likely destroyed the starter. As battery voltage drops amperage increases. High amperage will create excess heat. This likely goes back to before you purchased the car.

[Bert Kemp]

Yea The cheesy Honda dealer sold me a car with a bad starter.I'm sure they know it. They also sold it to me with only one Key with a promise to get me another one. Well that hasn't happened either


Sounds like you have two problems. An excessive drain on the electrical system and a starter issue. Have the mechanic look into that battery drain issue as well. A starter that cranks slowly and picks up speed indicates a draggy starter. The battery drain issue likely destroyed the starter. As battery voltage drops amperage increases. High amperage will create excess heat. This likely goes back to before you purchased the car.

[Greg Cuetara]

Bert it sounds like you may have figured out the issue. I had a problem a year or two ago with my plow truck and it did exactly the same thing. Battery was draining, it had a had time starting etc. i took out the starter thinking that was it and found a bad ground to the starter. It was a little 22 gauge wire under the car and had rusted out and had an intermittent connection so it would start most of the time but not all the time and when it would not start there was nothing...no click click click...I got the starter back in and fixed the ground wire and things have been good for the past two years. Let me tell you though in the middle of winter in the north east trying to get under a car where you have to unbolt the starter then turn it 90 different directions and each time move it a fraction of an inch to finally get it out was a pain in the keester...

Good luck solving your issue.
Greg

[Bert Kemp]

Greg I know all about it, lived in NH for 40+years. logged my own land for my firewood for 20 of those years. Trudging thru 3 feet of snow in 10 degree temps and the wind blowing, dragging 1" steel cable to hook up to the trees and drag them out. Snowblowing a 900 foot driveway up and down hill.Oh the good ol days:rolleyes:



Bert it sounds like you may have figured out the issue. I had a problem a year or two ago with my plow truck and it did exactly the same thing. Battery was draining, it had a had time starting etc. i took out the starter thinking that was it and found a bad ground to the starter. It was a little 22 gauge wire under the car and had rusted out and had an intermittent connection so it would start most of the time but not all the time and when it would not start there was nothing...no click click click...I got the starter back in and fixed the ground wire and things have been good for the past two years. Let me tell you though in the middle of winter in the north east trying to get under a car where you have to unbolt the starter then turn it 90 different directions and each time move it a fraction of an inch to finally get it out was a pain in the keester...

Good luck solving your issue.
Greg