Would I really notice a difference with a "better" RO Sander?

[Bryan Knitter]

The RO sander I have now is a Black & Decker BDERO100 cheapy that I think I paid $25 for. It vibrates like crazy and my hands go numb in like 15 minutes. For dust collection, I had to hack up the bag to make an adapter for my shop-vac.

So, how much "better" is a higher dollar sander from like DeWalt, Bosch, or Makita?

Will it transfer less vibrations back into my hands?
Better dust collection?
Faster material removal?
Include a vacuum adapter?

I guess what I'm asking is what am I gaining by buying a more expensive RO sander?

[Bruce Page]

Bryan, I have 3 or 4 Porter Cable sanders that haven't been touched since I bought my Festool ETS 150/3 6 years ago. The Festool has much less vibration, much better dust extraction and much better performance overall. Adapters are another story. I don't think anyone could provide an adapter that would work for everyone.

[Von Bickley]

I think you should up-grade.
I have a Porter Cable that I use. I also have a new Porter Cable still in the box in case the older one quits.

[Alex Snyder]

Bryan, I have 3 or 4 Porter Cable sanders that haven't been touched since I bought my Festool ETS 150/3 6 years ago. The Festool has much less vibration, much better dust extraction and much better performance overall. Adapters are another story. I don't think anyone could provide an adapter that would work for everyone.

Agreed.

Since going ETS and Rotex with Festool all of my LoweSears Depot sanders have been sitting in their own pile of dust. The difference is dramatic in every category. The problem with Festool isn't just the price of the tool, but the fact that they aren't worth getting without the vacuum too. And then it turns into a Domino, a track saw, and whatever else you might fancy. Be careful, this Festool stuff is more addictive than crack. And it ain't cheap.

As far as sanding goes, since I picked up the ETS 150/3 I am looking for things to refinish. I never thought I'd say it, but this sander makes sanding a pleasure.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

... It vibrates like crazy and my hands go numb in like 15 minutes. ...

That alone would make me want to replace it immediately.

Better sanders (Ive owned a few.. lol) should feel good in your hand, and be comfortable for hours of use at a time, not contributing to damaged nerves and tendons. Thats serious stuff.

Currently we use a mix of a few Mirka and several Festool sanders. I have some others (PC, Makita, DeWalt) that were once used a lot, but never get used anymore.

I think if you are using the sander more than just here and there, comfort would/should be as important as how the sander sands.

[Mike Henderson]

I've used Festool sanders and didn't find them to be a lot better than the Porter Cable model 390 sanders I have now, either in vibration or in how quickly they worked. But they don't make the 390 any more. I have ordered the Festool sander that they had on sale for $99 so I'll see how that compares to my Porter Cable sanders now.

I use a Ridgid vacuum with my sanders, but I have the vacuum set up so that I can control the speed (and thus the vacuum), and they turn on automatically when I turn on the sander. I use a bag in the vacuum so it's double filtered. Never noticed any dust coming out of it but I work in a garage and keep the big door open all the time.

Mike

[The 390 has a brushless motor so you never have to change brushes. Nice feature if you can get it on your sander. Also, very close to constant speed, no matter the load.]

[Dave Sabo]

1. most are likely to be smoother than that B&D
2. yes, most will have better and more convenient dust collection.
3. yes, most will have more powerful motors, which will mean faster removal. But these types of sanders aren't really meant for serious stock removal. They're finish sanders.
4. almost certainly, with many having them built into the body. Your B&D port without the bag attachment should fit a standard rubber hose end for tool connections from Bosch and Festool , or the other companies that make vacuums with tool activated sockets.

What at are you sanding mostly , and how much ? Have you replaced the pad on your sander yet? What about the brushes? If not , you're prob. not doing enough sanding to really warrant the xtra expense of a $100+ sander unless you just like having/using nice tools. It's really about refinement over $60 or so.

The sander Bruce mentions is fantastic, I have one too, but it's $400 after you get some sandpaper to use on it. I have a couple of the PC 333 too and have replaced the pads numerous times over the 3 decades I had them. I've looked at the new Makita 3 amp model with a handle and would probably buy that if I were looking to spend a hundred bucks on a decent sander today.

The best thing you can do with any of them is to buy a tool activated vacuum with a small diameter hose that's easy to maneuver and fits the dustport properly. That will make the largest difference in performance , paper life , and make less mess for the amount spent. You can also use it with other tools tool. Be aware though , a decent one is going to be $400 +.

[Bryan Knitter]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm mostly sanding small projects like cutting boards and various small projects. 50/50 hardwood/softwood.

I'm definitely not ready to drop festool money, but <$100 is fine with me. So far, the Makita BO5041 with the handle is at the top of my list, with either the variable speed DeWalt or Bosch next in line.

I need to get the smaller diameter hose for my shop-vac to use with the sander though, the 2.5" hose is way too cumbersome. So whatever I buy will need to either include, or have an easily obtainable adapter to 1-1/4" shop-vac hose.

[Ben Rivel]

In the less than $100 price range I doubt youll notice much difference unless you can get a hold of the Festool Pro 5 LTD sander that sold for $99. I have owned a few cheap RO sanders from DeWalt and Bosch and they all performed the same IMO. Now with a Festool ETS EC 150/3, a Pro 5 LTD and a CT 36 E vacuum I know the difference.

[lowell holmes]

My Ridgid RO sander is a good one. I wore out an original PC. It was a good one. The Ridgid (Home Depot) sander is bulletproof.

[Jim Dwight]

I used to use a Milwaukee I bought on the basis of a favorable review in a magazine. It worked well for several years but then the bottom fell apart. The bearings were rolling around on the floor we were working on. The replacement is a single speed DeWalt that works fine. Vibration isn't bad, the results are good, and it sands reasonably quickly. I also have a 6 inch DeWalt which is a different type. It looks like a grinder or polisher. I vibrates terribly and is difficult to control with one hand. But it removes material quicker too.

I have a Rigid shop vac pulling through a dust deputy and discharging through a quasi HEPA filter (HEPA fabric). I use a Bosch 5 meter hose with the sander and other smaller tools. I put an auto-on switch on it too. A Festool or Fein vac would make less noise and look nicer but I don't think they would have any different results.

I don't have any problem with nicer tools, however. I just got a Fein multi-tool and it is noticably nicer than my HF and Ryobi multi tools. It was a lot more expensive, of course.

[Van Huskey]

The short answer is yes (assuming you pick the right more expensive ROS), your question is a little like asking if the driving experience is better in a BMW M5 compared to a Chevy Spark. A ROS can run from $25 to $600 and the upper end (Mirka Deros $595 and Festool ETS EC 150 $485) are light years away from the B&D. You simply have to pick a price range and find the best ROS in that range you will see a big difference even in the $50 to $60 range. I know some thing $600 for an ROS is crazy but if my Deros disappeared tomorrow I would buy another by days end.

[Jim Becker]

One of the primary reasons I upgraded to a more premium sander was the vibration and numbness that I was suffering. Since I made that choice, I actually almost enjoy sanding. (within reason, of course... :D ) I was already on the Festool band-wagon and that's the way I went. Zero regrets. The more premium tools do cost a few more shekels in the beginning, but IMHO, they actually cost less long term because they last and last...and do a good job, too.

[Dave Sabo]

Jim , if you work on floors professionally, I'm surprised you got a couple of years out of that Milwaukee.

If if your edging with them, you really should try the Festool Ro 150, Bosch GEX 150 , or the Makita B06040 gear driven sanders. Like your 6" dewalt but much better. They all have a switch to make them random orbit for finer finishes.

Ridgid had a 6" gem of a sander for a while that was made by Metabo in Germany. Then prod. moved to China and went downhill. Ridgid's 5" RO sander is almost identical to the Ryobi, and Milwaukee ones sold right next to them at the Depot. Made in the same factory with a few "features" separating them and accounting for the $10 or so difference in price. It's a marketer's good, better, best wet dream.

Mike's PC390 is/was a nice little sander. I think it's brushless and was one of the first with a low profile like an air sander. I think it suffered b/o PC's takeover by B&D. I know they butchered the dust port when they got a hold of it.

[Van Huskey]

Mike's PC390 is/was a nice little sander. I think it's brushless and was one of the first with a low profile like an air sander. I think it suffered b/o PC's takeover by B&D. I know they butchered the dust port when they got a hold of it.[/QUOTE]

The 390K was ahead of its time, people couldn't see the price but an air sander sized/shaped electric sander is great. Now you have the great Mirka and Festool brushless sanders with air sander similar ergonomics (the Mirka even has the paddle switch) but there isn't a middle ground sander, I think with the reputation Mirka and Festool are giving this type of sander it might actually sell well now, especially if they made a 6" version.

[Patrick Curry]

You ought to look at the 5" Rigid sold at Home Depot. The vibration is reasonable, the dust control is good, and it performed well for me given the price.
I recently upgraded to a Bosch 6" (~$200)

[Mel Fulks]

I never see orbit size mentioned in these threads and I've worked places where the management wasn't even aware that were at least three sizes. Seems like that needs to be considered in these brand comparisons.

[Bruce Page]

I never see orbit size mentioned in these threads and I've worked places where the management wasn't even aware that were at least three sizes. Seems like that needs to be considered in these brand comparisons.
The Festool ETS 150/3 has a 3mm stroke. (~6"x 0.118)

[Pete Staehling]

I use three 5" ROS with three different grits. Since I work on very small sized projects I tend to use often each grit for seconds at a time. Given that swapping abrasives is a pain. So I have two Dewalts and one cheapie Harbor Freight withe three grits ready to go at all times. I really don't notice all that much difference. The Dewalts are enough nicer that if buying again I'd buy them, but the HF cheapie is actually OK. So I will use the HF until it dies and probably buy another Dewalt at that time (assuming the Dewalts actually wind up lasting longer).

[peter gagliardi]

I never see orbit size mentioned in these threads and I've worked places where the management wasn't even aware that were at least three sizes. Seems like that needs to be considered in these brand comparisons.
This is something many get hung up on, and don't understand well.
You simply want the largest orbit you can get.
And here is why, if a given tool runs at say 10000 orbits per minute, at say 10,000 rpm's, then the math shows that a machine running at a 3 mm orbit can travel, and thus effectively sand an area only about 60 % the size of the machine running the 5 mm orbit. This assumes both machines have the same number of RPM's and OPM's
Put another way, the bigger orbit allows the same amount of sanding in 40 % less time!!! This is huge for us guys that do it for a living.
Someone here is going to point out "the smaller scratch pattern" as being better. False.
Proper sanding technique and order is what makes sure there is NO scratch pattern to see with the naked eye!
^^^^^^ Those are the facts, at least how I see them anyway.

[John Lankers]

This is something many get hung up on, and don't understand well.
You simply want the largest orbit you can get.
And here is why, if a given tool runs at say 10000 orbits per minute, at say 10,000 rpm's, then the math shows that a machine running at a 3 mm orbit can travel, and thus effectively sand an area only about 60 % the size of the machine running the 5 mm orbit. This assumes both machines have the same number of RPM's and OPM's
Put another way, the bigger orbit allows the same amount of sanding in 40 % less time!!! This is huge for us guys that do it for a living.
Someone here is going to point out "the smaller scratch pattern" as being better. False.
Proper sanding technique and order is what makes sure there is NO scratch pattern to see with the naked eye!
^^^^^^ Those are the facts, at least how I see them anyway.

Right, and that's why you get what you pay for.
My 6" Ceros has 5mm orbit at up to (I believe) 12,000 rpm, low profile, very little vibration and excellent dust extraction when connected to a shop vacuum.

[Mel Fulks]

I won't say no one gets "hung up" up on orbit size ,but I think the bigger problem is ignoring it as I've seen shop owners do. I think Peter's comments are helpful but the reviews of sanders ( some of which seem to be just company ads) are pushing the small orbit for final sanding idea. And there are ads for sanders with orbits as big as 3/8 inch. Some )sanders seem to be for trades other than woodworking but the descriptions don't say which one!

[Peter Aeschliman]

This is something many get hung up on, and don't understand well.
You simply want the largest orbit you can get.
And here is why, if a given tool runs at say 10000 orbits per minute, at say 10,000 rpm's, then the math shows that a machine running at a 3 mm orbit can travel, and thus effectively sand an area only about 60 % the size of the machine running the 5 mm orbit. This assumes both machines have the same number of RPM's and OPM's
Put another way, the bigger orbit allows the same amount of sanding in 40 % less time!!! This is huge for us guys that do it for a living.
Someone here is going to point out "the smaller scratch pattern" as being better. False.
Proper sanding technique and order is what makes sure there is NO scratch pattern to see with the naked eye!
^^^^^^ Those are the facts, at least how I see them anyway.

Very informative. Thanks!

[Dave Cav]

Dynabrade.

[Jerry Miner]

This is something many get hung up on, and don't understand well.
You simply want the largest orbit you can get.
And here is why, if a given tool runs at say 10000 orbits per minute, at say 10,000 rpm's, then the math shows that a machine running at a 3 mm orbit can travel, and thus effectively sand an area only about 60 % the size of the machine running the 5 mm orbit. This assumes both machines have the same number of RPM's and OPM's
Put another way, the bigger orbit allows the same amount of sanding in 40 % less time!!! This is huge for us guys that do it for a living.
Someone here is going to point out "the smaller scratch pattern" as being better. False.
Proper sanding technique and order is what makes sure there is NO scratch pattern to see with the naked eye!
^^^^^^ Those are the facts, at least how I see them anyway.

Facts?? I don't think so.

Your math would work if the sanding areas of a 3mm orbit sander and a 5mm orbit sander were only 3 sq. mm and 5 sq. mm respectively. But the sanding area of a 5" sander with a 3mm orbit is 20.572 sq. inches and that of a 5" sander with a 5mm orbit is 21.205 sq. inches.

Area of a circle is pi(R)(R) --- (R=radius) ( I don't know how to type piRsquared)

Radius of 5" sanding pad= 2.5 in. Add 1.5mm (.059 in.)(increase diameter by 3mm means increase Radius by 1.5mm) = 2.559
Total sanding area = 20.572 sq. in. ----- pi(2.559)(2.559)

Add 2.5mm (.098 in.) (5" disk plus 5mm orbit) = 2.598
Total sanding area = 21.205 sq. in. ----- pi(2.598)(2.598)

So total sanding area increases from 20.572 to 21.205 sq. in., or a 3 % (NOT 60%) increase.

I'm not saying that a larger orbit doesn't lead to faster sanding, but the increase in sanding area was over-stated.

[Mike Chalmers]

I went from a 5" Dewalt to a 6" Bosch ROS65VC-6. I still use the Dewalt occasionally on smaller projects, or when I have to do a lot of one hand sanding, but the Bosch is my go to. No comparison. Not a Festool for sure, however, it doesn't cost you your first born either.

[Van Huskey]

Dynabrade.

Great except for dust control and having to run a large noisy electricity hog compressor. With the adaptation of brushless motors allowing ergonomics similar to pneumatic sanders the writing is on the wall for pneumatics which cost far more to run than brushless electrics. Brushless electrics are already making inroads into industrial and commercial settings and will eventually overtake the pneumatics as the preferred solution. This is exactly why Mirka designed their Ceros/Deros to copy the ergonomics of air sanders and Festool did as well, though not quite at the level of Mirka. Mirka and Festool both make very high quality air sanders (as good or better than Dynabrade) which actually have great dust control but now are pushing the long term lower cost of electric sanders which is only possible to convert users due to the compact power and low maintenance allowed by the use of brushless motors.

[peter gagliardi]

Facts?? I don't think so.

Your math would work if the sanding areas of a 3mm orbit sander and a 5mm orbit sander were only 3 sq. mm and 5 sq. mm respectively. But the sanding area of a 5" sander with a 3mm orbit is 20.572 sq. inches and that of a 5" sander with a 5mm orbit is 21.205 sq. inches.

Area of a circle is pi(R)(R) --- (R=radius) ( I don't know how to type piRsquared)

Radius of 5" sanding pad= 2.5 in. Add 1.5mm (.059 in.)(increase diameter by 3mm means increase Radius by 1.5mm) = 2.559
Total sanding area = 20.572 sq. in. ----- pi(2.559)(2.559)

Add 2.5mm (.098 in.) (5" disk plus 5mm orbit) = 2.598
Total sanding area = 21.205 sq. in. ----- pi(2.598)(2.598)

So total sanding area increases from 20.572 to 21.205 sq. in., or a 3 % (NOT 60%) increase.

I'm not saying that a larger orbit doesn't lead to faster sanding, but the increase in sanding area was over-stated.

Ok, in your example, the math as you state, I trust as true, however, if you take it and break it down to the distance each individual grain of grit travels, in its orbital path over 1 minutes time, you will understand what I am saying. It has absolutely nothing to do with pad size vs. orbit size. Each grain is still travelling a given number of times in a given length of orbit. A 3mm circle is still only 60% of the distance of a 5mm circle.
I stand by my assertion.

[Van Huskey]

Ok, in your example, the math as you state, I trust as true, however, if you take it and break it down to the distance each individual grain of grit travels, in its orbital path over 1 minutes time, you will understand what I am saying. It has absolutely nothing to do with pad size vs. orbit size. Each grain is still travelling a given number of times in a given length of orbit. A 3mm circle is still only 60% of the distance of a 5mm circle.
I stand by my assertion.

Not getting into the math I agree with your point 100% with a caveat or two. I find for raw wood there is no reason to go below 5mm (I have never used one fo the 8mm stroke ROS). The place that I find (non-scientifically) that smaller strokes work better is high grit work on film finishes, I like orbits smaller than 3mm (2.5mm or so) in this application. It probably has more to do with fact you don't need quick cutting and large orbits "seem" to show more with the very high grits. I went through a stage where I had both 3mm and 5mm Festool ROS but quickly divested myself of the 3mm 6" version and hen I moved to Mirka just bought 5mm. I do keep 2.5mm a 5" ROS for building and finishing film finishes.

[Leo Graywacz]

This is something many get hung up on, and don't understand well.
You simply want the largest orbit you can get.
And here is why, if a given tool runs at say 10000 orbits per minute, at say 10,000 rpm's, then the math shows that a machine running at a 3 mm orbit can travel, and thus effectively sand an area only about 60 % the size of the machine running the 5 mm orbit. This assumes both machines have the same number of RPM's and OPM's
Put another way, the bigger orbit allows the same amount of sanding in 40 % less time!!! This is huge for us guys that do it for a living.
Someone here is going to point out "the smaller scratch pattern" as being better. False.
Proper sanding technique and order is what makes sure there is NO scratch pattern to see with the naked eye!
^^^^^^ Those are the facts, at least how I see them anyway.

If you are looking for an aggressive sander then I'll agree. If you are looking for a fine finish sander then your theory is wrong.

I have the Mirka Ceros and it has a 5mm orbit. Since getting it I haven't had any issues with swirlies in my finishes. The good sandpaper and the vacuum hookup is the reason for that. Before that I used a single speed DeWalt sander. Pretty much bought 1 per year as they wore out. They didn't have a chance with 500-700 hours sanding a year.

[Bill Adamsen]

Like some of the others have said ... once I bought my Festool brushless I literally have not used any of my ROS such as Bosch and Dewalt - and I have piles of sandpaper for them. The only sanders I've used are the Porter Cable 505 for painted cabinet finishes, and a couple of pneumatics that do special things (the Dynabrade wet-sander).

[Howard Rosenberg]

Most sanders will probably be close to each other in performance. But I wouldn't wait if my hand went numb. Not a good sign. At all.

Having said that I bought the P-C ROS years ago because it had the round dust chute. Surprisingly, it made my hand numb my first time using it. Took it right back and bought the Makita equivalent. Close to nil in vibration and less noise. Never looked back.

HTH

Howard

[Jim Andrew]

I have a Bosch which was the top of the line sander years ago, 5". Have had to replace the velcro pad several times. Uses 5" 8 hole sanding pads. Handle on the side, really helps to keep the sander under control. Was about 150.

[glenn bradley]

Will it transfer less vibrations back into my hands?
- yes
Better dust collection?
- probably
Faster material removal?
- depends on the oscillation range
Include a vacuum adapter?
- probably not but,m they're cheap

I am not a heavy ROS user so temper my opinions with that in mind. I bought the Bosch 1295 DVS back before I ever heard of Festool. It was winning the bake-offs for smoothest results and kicking the butts of sanders costing $100 more. The focus was on surface prep not stock removal. They were discontinued but, I managed to grab an extra before they disappeared.

Results on plastic to aid visibility:

351084

The original one has run like a champ for 8 years and the spare is pretty much still a spare. I have soft medium and hard pads for it and the vac adapter was about $8. In use it picks up everything it generates and even sucks up nearby spoil from the bench. My point is that even back before vibration and dust collection were high points for designers, better sanders were . . . well . . . better. Do you need to spend $300? Probably not. Do you need to spend more than $25? Probably.

[Bill Adamsen]

... With the adaptation of brushless motors allowing ergonomics similar to pneumatic sanders the writing is on the wall for pneumatics...

Not sure the wet sanders would concur ...

[Van Huskey]

Not sure the wet sanders would concur ...

At least at this point that is 100% correct but wet sanders don't see a lot of use in the wood industry.

[Bill Adamsen]

Definitely exposes how self-centered I can be when thinking about work. There is enough combination of wood and fiberglass here locally - an anomaly for sure - that I'm always thinking about how the tool I use works with plastic. But I do agree that the modern high performance (and cost) brushless electric with vacuum are transformative tools. I'm drinking that koolaid for sure.

[lowell holmes]

My Rigid (Home Depot) random orbital sander is a solid tool. I recommend it.

[Glenn de Souza]

I've been thinking about upgrading my ancient DeWalt 5".

Form factor and weight are important to me. The brushless motor discussion is interesting. I've been noticing a push toward the brushless compact form factor in the cordless battery tools. Is it a safe assumption that this wave is sweeping the corded tools also, and if so can we expect Bosch and others to release compact brushless versions of their Random Orbit Sanders?

Unless I'm missing something, other than the discontinued PC390, I'm not seeing much in the compact brushless ROS category unless you step up to the super premium brands like Festool (or Mirka?). I'm asking because if newer compact brushless models are on the way from Bosch, DeWalt and the like, I will probably sit tight until they're here.

[CPeter James]

Dynabrade.
I agree! I have a Dewalt and upgraded to a Dynabrade several years ago. No comparison. My Dynabrade is air powered and does use a fair amount of air, but it does remove material fast and leave a good surface. I also use Mirka Abranet disks, pads and subpads and hook my shop vac or dust collector to it for really good duct control.

[Van Huskey]

Unless I'm missing something, other than the discontinued PC390, I'm not seeing much in the compact brushless ROS category unless you step up to the super premium brands like Festool (or Mirka?). I'm asking because if newer compact brushless models are on the way from Bosch, DeWalt and the like, I will probably sit tight until they're here.

Right now (at least imported to the US) your choices are the Festool ETS EC 125/150 $385/$485 or the Mirka Deros which is $595 for either the 5" or 6".

I think it is safe to say more (cheaper) alternatives will appear, when is the real question.

[Van Huskey]

Definitely exposes how self-centered I can be when thinking about work. There is enough combination of wood and fiberglass here locally - an anomaly for sure - that I'm always thinking about how the tool I use works with plastic. But I do agree that the modern high performance (and cost) brushless electric with vacuum are transformative tools. I'm drinking that koolaid for sure.


I think we all pretty much discuss things from inside our own little bubble, I know I do. I can't think of the last time I wet sanded anything.

I think it could definitely be called disruptive technology for the industry. I think it is being driven in the EU by safety standards and reducing energy usage.

[Mike Dowell]

I bought a Mirka Ceros, and it was almost life changing. I only say 'almost' because technically, it didn't change my life. This is the most amazing sander I've ever used. It's a 6" model, and with the nice abranet pads, it is a dream to use. Of the many benefits this sander has brought to me, I have to make sure I'm completely clear about one thing:

A high end sander still leaves squiggle marks. I tell you that because many folks think squiggle marks are because of a lousy sander, but they are not. Squiggle marks are a *technique problem* and not the fault of the sander. So, if you've got some coin and want a badass sander, get a Ceros, but don't expect it to fix squiggles.

[Leo Graywacz]

Haven't found a noticeable swirly since I got my Ceros (5"). Gotta use a vacuum.

[Mike Dowell]

Oh I use a vacuum, and a dust deputy. The squiggles are from not moving the sander slow enough. Did you get the short throw model? I forget what the throw is on mine. I definitely get squiggles if I don't move very slowly, and with light pressure.

[Leo Graywacz]

5mm oscillation I believe. The 5" model only came in one oscillation size. I do woodworking for a living, and sanding is the bane of my existence. I use a Fein Vacuum. My hose is about 30' long along with the extension cord I got with the Ceros. I can stick the sander in the middle of my shop and reach almost the whole area.

[Van Huskey]

Just for clarification for anyone shopping for sanders the Mirka Ceros is no longer available in the US only the Deros is available now. If you REALLY want one you can order one from the UK and run it on 220 like some people do with the Festool NAINA tools. Europe got more sizes and orbits than the US when they imported them here also, there is a 3" Ceros as well. Plus in Europe once you had one power box you could buy just the sanders and save a lot of dough if you only needed to run one at a time.

[Glenn de Souza]

Just for clarification for anyone shopping for sanders the Mirka Ceros is no longer available in the US only the Deros is available now.

This could be because of a recall that was apparently issued last May involving the Ceros. Here's a link that talks about it: https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2016/Mirka-Recalls-Electric-Random-Orbital-Sanders/

[Van Huskey]

This could be because of a recall that was apparently issued last May involving the Ceros. Here's a link that talks about it: https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2016/Mirka-Recalls-Electric-Random-Orbital-Sanders/

It is likely the case that they did not want to re-design the power module for the relatively small US market since they had the Deros here already. It is the reason I have Deros sanders instead of Ceros, they replaced my Ceros with Deros. Mirka considers the Deros an upgrade (and it is $100 more) but many preferred the smaller size of the Ceros but it was less convenient for some, especially site work.

[peter gagliardi]

Or, having only one model of tool in the marketplace with the risk of catching fire at a time was a good idea.:D

[Van Huskey]

Or, having only one model of tool in the marketplace with the risk of catching fire at a time was a good idea.:D


It is always interesting to me how companies do the cost benefit analysis on recalls, Mirka recalls 2800 sanders when 2 spark and smoke (no fire) and my experience with Harbor Freight is about 1 in 5 of their power tools die a sparky death. Honestly, had I known my Ceros was to be been replaced with a Deros I would not have sent it in even though the Deros is a more expensive sander.

[Leo Graywacz]

Exactly. I had sent mine in under the recall and used a Deros for 2 weeks. While it's a nice sander, it's bigger and not as maneuverable. I was very happy to get it back. I was told the next time I sent it in for anything, including a repair that I would pay out of pocket, I would get the Deros. Hope it doesn't fail.

[Mike Dowell]

So you all like the Ceros better than the Deros? The Deros did look a bit clunky to me.

[Chris Hachet]

Bryan, I have 3 or 4 Porter Cable sanders that haven't been touched since I bought my Festool ETS 150/3 6 years ago. The Festool has much less vibration, much better dust extraction and much better performance overall. Adapters are another story. I don't think anyone could provide an adapter that would work for everyone.I have a really nice Festool Sander. Also ahve the vac that goes with it for dust election. I have not set electrons to my other sanders since getting the Festool.

Worth every penny-my outfeed table/third work bench has a black melamine top, I can sand light colored Maple and the Top of the bench is still very black at the end of an evening of sanding.

My lungs (even though i sue a respirator/dust protection in addition to the Festool vac) appreciate not having the sawdust in the air, for one thing.

The finish it leaves is night and day better also....

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm mostly sanding small projects like cutting boards and various small projects. 50/50 hardwood/softwood.

I'm definitely not ready to drop festool money, but <$100 is fine with me. So far, the Makita BO5041 with the handle is at the top of my list, with either the variable speed DeWalt or Bosch next in line.

I need to get the smaller diameter hose for my shop-vac to use with the sander though, the 2.5" hose is way too cumbersome. So whatever I buy will need to either include, or have an easily obtainable adapter to 1-1/4" shop-vac hose.Check Craigslist. Near my Sister in NC (was shopping for a used band saw) I saw a lightly used Festool sander for $125.

The difference in the amount of time you spend sanding is remarkable IMHO.

Also, I use hand planes for most of my rougher finishing work, I rarely sand with anything more aggressive than 220 or 320. Much quicker and less dust.

[Chris Hachet]

1. most are likely to be smoother than that B&D
2. yes, most will have better and more convenient dust collection.
3. yes, most will have more powerful motors, which will mean faster removal. But these types of sanders aren't really meant for serious stock removal. They're finish sanders.
4. almost certainly, with many having them built into the body. Your B&D port without the bag attachment should fit a standard rubber hose end for tool connections from Bosch and Festool , or the other companies that make vacuums with tool activated sockets.

What at are you sanding mostly , and how much ? Have you replaced the pad on your sander yet? What about the brushes? If not , you're prob. not doing enough sanding to really warrant the xtra expense of a $100+ sander unless you just like having/using nice tools. It's really about refinement over $60 or so.

The sander Bruce mentions is fantastic, I have one too, but it's $400 after you get some sandpaper to use on it. I have a couple of the PC 333 too and have replaced the pads numerous times over the 3 decades I had them. I've looked at the new Makita 3 amp model with a handle and would probably buy that if I were looking to spend a hundred bucks on a decent sander today.

The best thing you can do with any of them is to buy a tool activated vacuum with a small diameter hose that's easy to maneuver and fits the dustport properly. That will make the largest difference in performance , paper life , and make less mess for the amount spent. You can also use it with other tools tool. Be aware though , a decent one is going to be $400 +.


Agree 100 percent, especially on the vac with the startup feature....

[Chris Hachet]

Agreed.

Since going ETS and Rotex with Festool all of my LoweSears Depot sanders have been sitting in their own pile of dust. The difference is dramatic in every category. The problem with Festool isn't just the price of the tool, but the fact that they aren't worth getting without the vacuum too. And then it turns into a Domino, a track saw, and whatever else you might fancy. Be careful, this Festool stuff is more addictive than crack. And it ain't cheap.

As far as sanding goes, since I picked up the ETS 150/3 I am looking for things to refinish. I never thought I'd say it, but this sander makes sanding a pleasure.


Addictive indeed...

[Chris Hachet]

I went from a 5" Dewalt to a 6" Bosch ROS65VC-6. I still use the Dewalt occasionally on smaller projects, or when I have to do a lot of one hand sanding, but the Bosch is my go to. No comparison. Not a Festool for sure, however, it doesn't cost you your first born either.


Bosch is an excellent second choice. I love my 1617EVS Router and my Bosch battery drills.

[Chris Hachet]

I am not a heavy ROS user so temper my opinions with that in mind. I bought the Bosch 1295 DVS back before I ever heard of Festool. It was winning the bake-offs for smoothest results and kicking the butts of sanders costing $100 more. The focus was on surface prep not stock removal. They were discontinued but, I managed to grab an extra before they disappeared.

Results on plastic to aid visibility:

351084

The original one has run like a champ for 8 years and the spare is pretty much still a spare. I have soft medium and hard pads for it and the vac adapter was about $8. In use it picks up everything it generates and even sucks up nearby spoil from the bench. My point is that even back before vibration and dust collection were high points for designers, better sanders were . . . well . . . better. Do you need to spend $300? Probably not. Do you need to spend more than $25? Probably.My backup Sander is Bosch, The Festool I found to be much better. My cheap Ryobi went in the trash during my last shop clean up.

[Peter Kuhlman]

As to the sander orbit - I had both the 3mm and 5mm Festool 150 sanders at the same time for a while. Ended up selling the 5mm version. Yes the 5mm sander was faster and removed material more aggressively using identical grit paper. In my hands, I got a nicer finish with the 3mm model. Hard to describe. You can easily compensate for fine or aggressive by changing sandpaper grits. With a courser grit paper I could virtually duplicate the action of the 5mm orbit with a 3mm orbit. Conversely I could use a finer grit on the 5mm to approximate the 3mm action. In my hands, I feel like I get a better surface using the 3mm orbit and if it takes a couple extra minutes to rough sand I am happy with that as a hobbiest. My goal is the finished product so the smaller orbit works better for me. Ideally if producing results in a more production type operation I would have both orbits. Many happy with either one as a single sander.

[Van Huskey]

So you all like the Ceros better than the Deros? The Deros did look a bit clunky to me.

I think most that have had them both would prefer the Ceros but the Deros does have the advantage of not being slaved to a power supply. That said the Deros can only be considered clunky in comparison to te Ceros as it is still smaller and lighter than all the other electric ROS of the same size.

[Alan Lightstone]

The Mirka website says that the Ceros is 90-240VAC. Couldn't it be used in the US with a plug adapter on 115V?

[Van Huskey]

The Mirka website says that the Ceros is 90-240VAC. Couldn't it be used in the US with a plug adapter on 115V?


Yep, I wasn't sure but a couple of people verified it will work fine on either this thread or the other current ROS thread.

[Martin Wasner]

but the Deros does have the advantage of not being slaved to a power supply.


I must be just about the only person who doesn't care about that power supply. A cord is a cord to me. Either plug it into the wall, or plug it into a box plugged into the wall, doesn't matter to me.

I do wish the cord was thinner. I'd sacrifice durability for a bit more mobility and the loss of weight. With the poly air hoses and a dynabrade, it's hard to beat for mobility. But it takes a solid 5 hp of compressor to keep up with one, which is what interested me in the ceros in the first place.

[Leo Graywacz]

You're not the only one. Never understood why people complained so much about it. I just put mine in a cart and now I don't even think about it. I guess if you are bringing it from site to site it might be a hassle. But who wants to bring a $600 sander into the field? That's where the $50 sander goes.

[Dan Clark]

Martin,

You're not the only one who doesn't care about the Ceros power supply. My Ceros 150/5's light weight weight and handling outweigh any minor issue with the power supply.

That said, the sander head to power supply connector had a problem where the metal locking connector snapped off. It took me weeks to find a suitable replacement (a speaker connector). But that hassle was worth it to me.

I tried a Deros. It was a nice sander and lighter than the comparable Festool sander, but still doesn't match the Ceros.

Also, I have five Festool sanders. They are better than standard BORG sanders, but my go-to sander is my Ceros.

IMO, high quality sanders like the Festool and Mirka sanders are worth the money. If for no other reason... When you're trying to figure out if the problem you've encountered is caused by you or the sander, with a high quality sander it's probably not the sander. That makes it easier to find a solution.

Regards,


Dan.

[Jim Becker]

When you're trying to figure out if the problem you've encountered is caused by you or the sander, with a high quality sander it's probably not the sander. That makes it easier to find a solution.

I truly agree with this statement!