Saw purchasing advice for a beginner

[Owen Stefaniak]

Long story short: I used to have unlimited access to a very nice woodshop through my job. Pretty much all machines. I no longer have access to that shop and have been finally building my home workshop for a while now. I am making the switch entirely to hand tools. So the big caveat here is that my skill with hand tools is still at the beginner level and I'm learning as I go.

Now the time has come to purchase a few joinery saws. I am considering a few makers, namely: Lie Nielsen, Gramercy Tool, Bad Axe. The big conundrum I'm having is that most of the reviews I've read of the Gramercy and Bad Axe (and other high end) tools are glowing and it seems many people have moved away from their LN saws to something like these. However, as I'm sure everyone knows, the Gramercy saws virtually double the price of LN. Given that I'm newer to hand tool work and still learning, I'm inclined to buy the cheaper LN saws and use the money saved to get other tools that I still need as well. But then there is that little voice in the back of my mind that says if I buy the highest quality tool, I'll only need to buy it once and save money in the long run; because in the event that I ever decide the LN tool isn't sufficient anymore, I'll still have to buy a new saw. But at the same time I wonder, what if the LN suits me just fine and I never feel the need to replace it? I'm making myself loony.

So I guess what I'm looking for is just to hear other peoples' stories of what route they chose and why. I'm not terribly brand specific at this point, I'm more just wondering if it makes sense to start with the affordable tool, or suck it up and pay for the best. I'm developing a pretty good beginner tool set, but bear in mind that I still have quite a few other tools I need yet aside from the saws.

[Jim Koepke]

My route would be totally different. Only a few of my saws have been bought new. The first two were "dovetail" saws bought at big box stores. Not great saws. The most recent was a kit from Ron Bontz for which the handle was made by me:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?249983

One of the first things to come to my realization was the need to learn how to sharpen a saw. A dull or poorly sharpened saw is nigh impossible to use to good effect.

If it were my place to be looking at new saws one of my considerations would be to also look at the offerings of Lee Valley. My preference is for a bit different style of handle with a brass or steel back. Their saws have received good reviews if you do not have a preference for the saw's appearance.

As with other tools, the feel in the hand is important to me. If at all possible try to find an opportunity to get all of these saws in your hand to make sure the comfort level is good or the handle can be modified to make it so.

This doesn't really compare the brands as you requested. Hopefully some one else will be able to do that.

jtk

[Owen Stefaniak]

Thanks for your insights Jim. My first two saws were not new. They are Disston panel saws that I restored, both of which were obtained for less than $10. they cleaned up well and work just fine for dimensioning larger stuff. I would love to go that route with joinery saws as well, but have yet to encounter a single good deal like that. I do also have a saw vise that I got at a flea market for $15. I cleaned it up and it seems to hold saws adequately, but I haven't gotten around to buying files yet. So yeah, learning to sharpen saws is on the list. I will take a closer look at the Lee Valley saws. I have other tools from them that I've been very happy with. An attractive looking tool would be nice, but is not my top priority at the moment. I just want to get working.

[Phil Mueller]

Owen, welcome! I'll second Jim's advice to give the Veritas saws a look. I have several and they perform well. If you have not already done so, search SMC for other saw threads...many saw discussions are to be found. You may also want to consider the Japanese pull saws. There is a recent, excellent thread started by Stan Covington, and other past threads as well.

I also have several LN saws and am quite satisfied with them. You can't go wrong with any of the brands you mention. It really comes down to what your budget is for all the tools you may need and how much you want to apply toward saws.

[Normand Leblanc]

I can't speak for LV or LN saws but I'm sure they would do the job quite well.

For quite a while I was using japanese saw and I finally decided it was time for a nice set of western saws - that's about four years ago. I bought three Gramercy. The sole problem is with the dovetail saw that has a more "open" handle. I use it but I just can't find a comfortable grip.
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[Richard Line]

I've bought the LV dovetail & carcass cross cut saws and I like them. I've also picked up a Davis (Stanley) rip carcass saw (closed handle) - like it also. If your going to be cutting different types of joints (dovetail, M&T, laps...) then you will need several (3 min?) saws - dovetail, cross cut & rip carcass saws. Buying 3 saws at a crack would lead (did) me to the LV saws. My impression is they are designed for those starting out on learning to handcut joints (rack of 15 deg) because they start a cut easier than steeper raked saws. I've learned to start the saws and have now go to about 10 deg or rake - faster cutting.

My main point is think about what you want to do and the tools you'll need to do those tasks. I don't think a single saw will work, unless you go with a Japanese saw and work in soft woods.

Enjoy your quest.

[Frederick Skelly]

I've bought the LV dovetail & carcass cross cut saws and I like them.

If your going to be cutting different types of joints (dovetail, M&T, laps...) then you will need several (3 min?) saws - dovetail, cross cut & rip carcass saws. Buying 3 saws at a crack would lead (did) me to the LV saws.

think about what you want to do and the tools you'll need to do those tasks. I don't think a single saw will work, unless you go with a Japanese saw and work in soft woods.

I agree with all. The LV saws are great value - I have 3. I also have 2 Japanese Dozuki saws. In my experience, you don't have to drop $250 on a saw right off the bat. (Unless you just plain WANT TO. But you dont HAVE TO.) Buy the LVs, learn to use them and then sell them for half of what you paid. Consider the "loss" to be tuition. It will also inform your future purchase of a fancier saw.

If you want a fancier saw, also consider Ron Bontz. He's a regular here and does beautiful work. (Google Bontz Saw Works.)

Fred

[steven c newman]

Welcome to try any of mine..
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Just to see what fits your hand the best....

[ken hatch]

I agree with the other posters about the LV saws, They may not be pretty but they perform every bit as well as the high dollar saws. I have a saw till full of Gramercy, LN, Bad Axe, Adria, and even a few old Disston saws. I reach for one of the LV saws about as often as any of the others. For the cost of one Bad Axe you can fill your till with the LV's and unless you like eye candy never need any other.

My problem is I like eye candy :o,

ken

[Pat Barry]

I'm pretty sure that whatever you buy will become something you will enjoy using. All the "this is better than that" stuff is just someones opinion anyway and for everyone of those there is another one or two of the opposite. I have a vareity and I really do enjoy them all, OK, all except for a plastic handled backsaw that I bought years ago at Ace Hardware

[Malcolm Schweizer]

The main difference with boutique saws is the bling, the quality of the back, and the saw plate- specifically the quality of the steel and whether or not the plate is tapered.

Lie Nielsen saws are exceptional. I just ordered my second one. I also have a number of Veritas saws and yes- they are fine saws. My only gripe with Veritas is the "plastic" back. Okay, yes- I know it's not just plastic, but it flexes like plastic. That said, the flex is only going to happen with bad form.

I am going to recommend that you splurge for one fancy saw, and usually the cheapest option is a dovetail saw. I highly recommend Ron Bontz's saws- Absolute works of art. If you get a really good dovetail saw fit to your hand, it sure is nice.

Also keep in mind that Grammercy sells a kit version of their dovetail saw, and Bontz will sell you a plate and back with which to make your own saw- making your own handle.

[brian zawatsky]

I have a bit of a saw problem. At least my wife thinks so.
I've got several old Disston backsaws that I restored and enjoy using. The old handles fit the hand nicely and their heavier gauge plates are well suited for larger tenons and such.
I also have 2 LN saws - a 10" dovetail and 14" carcass - and I absolutely love them. Like was mentioned above, unless you like eye candy there is really no functional reason to need a saw that costs 3x what a LN costs.
I've heard great things about the Veritas saws, but I just can't get past the aesthetics.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Hi Owen, and welcome to the creek. When it comes to handsaws, I'm only a few years and projects ahead of you. So my experience is limited. I elected to go the LN route for my first "new" saws. LN gets good reviews for quality and service. I wanted to start with western style saws and I wanted saws that looked somewhat traditional. I was tempted by the LV saws in terms of value and utility, but preferred the more traditional look of LN saws. I considered the Bad Axe saws as well as the Wenzloff & Sons, but couldn't bring myself to spend the extra $$$. I have no complaints with the LN saws and recommend them without hesitation. As others have said, I think you will find these are all good choices. In the end it comes down to personal preference.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

If you make it to the middle of Ohio, I will join you at Steve's house (he already offered his saws) and you can try mine as well!

Most of the saws will cut pretty well. So, assuming that your saw is good, there are a few differences (in my somewhat "new" opinion):



How does the saw feel in your hand? The handle should feel right in your hand. The better saws allow you to choose a handle size. My Lie Nielsen saw had a handle that was a bit small for me so it pinched. Lie Nielsen replaced the handle with something larger, and now it is too large. If you dare try to make your own handle, well, you can try until you get it right. I have not yet dared this...
How aggressive are the teeth? You can reword this to be how easy is the saw to start? One of my easiest saws to start is my Bad Axe saw because of how the saw was sharpened. I have never tried the Rob Cosman saw, but, it has 22 DPI at the front and 15 at the back, which makes the saw easier to start. Note that my saws that start the easiest cut the slowest. http://www.robcosman.com/tools_dtsaw.php
Hang angle of the handle. I believe Ron Bontz (http://www.bontzsawworks.net/), a member here, is one of the few that mentions hang angle on his site. Note that he makes really nice saws. Note that the hang angle has significant effect on how the force is directed so it also affects how easy the saw is to start.


Will you learn to sharpen your own saw? if so, you might want to simply start with a less expensive saw and sharpen it. Rob Cosman hs stated that he can make most saws cut well. The steel may not be good, the handle may be horrible, but you can sharpen it and make it cut. May have to sharpen it often, but still, it is a start. If you can attend a wood working show, you can probably try a few saws to see what you like. I like my Lee Valley saw, it is a decent saw, even if it is not my favorite handle.

In the back of my mind, I keep thinking that I want to try to make my own handle.

I own some of the new name brand saws because I was afraid to go it alone....

[Owen Stefaniak]

Thank you everyone for all of the great advice. Prior to this thread I guess I hadn't thought all that much about how learning to sharpen should factor into this equation. As previously mentioned I did pick up a saw sharpening vise and I figure that this is a skill I should probably learn at some point. So I think that I will try to start out with one of the Lee Valley saws. That way I won't feel quite as bad learning to file on it. I really appreciate all the good info here. Thanks again.

Also, those Bontz saws are absolutely gorgeous

[Jim Koepke]

As previously mentioned I did pick up a saw sharpening vise and I figure that this is a skill I should probably learn at some point. So I think that I will try to start out with one of the Lee Valley saws.

There are many inexpensive saws available at yard sales and such. It might be helpful if one were used to learn saw sharpening. You then won't have any qualms about putting file to a good saw without experience.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

Ditto what Jim said. I bought every yard sale junk saw I could get my hands on to practice sharpening. Once you get to sharpening joinery saws, the teeth are very small relative to hand saws and it was helpful to have the basics down on the larger teeth before moving to the joinery saws.

Check out Pete Taran's site, vintagesaws. He's a member here and his site has a wealth of information on sharpening. You can order files from him as well.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Yes, the "vintagesaws" site is very nice, you should certainly check it out....

If you can find a "beater saw" to practice on, probably not a bad idea. Lowes sells a miter box WITH saw for about $15 that you could practice on. If you hit garage sales or flea markets, that is even better since an old "junk" saw is probably a better saw if the blade is straight, but I don't base that on much. It is easier to start on a larger saw I am told. I plan on sharpening saws, I have simply not gotten into it yet. I have the saws, the files, and the vice. Now, i just need to take the time to sit down and do it myself.

[brian zawatsky]

It's much easier to learn filing on a saw with larger teeth, like a 5 or 6 pt rip saw. Probably best to begin on a rip tooth, as there is no fleam angle to worry about right off the bat. Concentrate on making the spacing equal, rake angle consistent, and the tops of the teeth even.

You can really mangle a fine toothed joinery saw in a pretty big hurry if you don't know what you're doing...

[Curt Putnam]

I don't remember hand size being mentioned. If your hands are not of average size, you will want to physically try a saw before you buy. The custom saw makers will all make a tote that will fit your hand.

[lowell holmes]

Your first saw should be one that is a good one so that you will know what suits you. There are more choices than when I started.
Ron Bontz, Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, and others that don't come to mind right now, all will let you learn what suits you. I bought various used saws on line and finally bought a Lie Nielsen dove tail saw new. After that I knew what a good saw was.

I think a carcass saw would be a better first good saw. You can cut dove tails with one and they are good for other uses as well.
Old Disston back saws might come to you properly set up, but all of mine have been re-toothed. I learned to re-tooth a saw my self and it was a good expErience. What is nice is that after you learn to retooth a saw, sharpen it rip or crosscut, you can change your saw-till on a whim.

Oh by the way, you can cross cut with a fine toothed rip saw.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Prior to this thread I guess I hadn't thought all that much about how learning to sharpen should factor into this equation. As previously mentioned I did pick up a saw sharpening vise and I figure that this is a skill I should probably learn at some point. So I think that I will try to start out with

No shame in buying a nice saw before you learn to sharpen. Much depends on how often you must sharpen your saw, which is directly related to how much you use your saw.

Lie nielsen has a very inexpensive sharpening service on their saws, but you must send it back to them (which is the real expense). Bad Axe tools does a great job, but again, you must send it back.

So, no shame in buying a nice saw and then put it on your list of things to do.... to learn to sharpen.... and then send your nice saw out for sharpening.

When Lie nielsen sharpened my saw, it came back very aggressive as compared to the Bad Axe saw when they sharpened it (as in more difficult to start the cut). From a general use perspective, my favorite dove tail saw is my Bad Axe saw on average, which is directly related to the handle size being perfect for my hand and the ease of starting. I have a large one (the doc holiday) that I can use when cutting larger pieces of wood for dove tails.... At the end of the day, i find that each saw does something that I prefer over the others..... which is probably my issue as opposed to something about the saw; for example I really like my Lee Valley for trimming side pieces off my tails.

Note that in a perfect world, you would probably have a different "sharpening" for hard wood and softwood.

[Owen Stefaniak]

Well speaking of saws, and sharpening practice and things...

I'm down in the basement right now working on some improvements to the workshop space. I just put up 1 additional fluorescent light because I thought it was still a touch too dark over my main working area. I turn the thing on and it just barely casts some light into a far corner behind the furnace that was previously dark. What do I immediately see: a saw hanging on the wall. The house is around 100 years old, so who knows how long it's been hanging back there unused. There's about a pound of dust on it. It is a GH Bishop and Co. Can't see any etch on the blade yet though.

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The tote is split and someone repaired it at some point by running a carriage bolt through it. It feels pretty sturdy despite being beat up. Unfortunately it's not perfectly straight but it is fairly close and the teeth are in decent enough shape. The thing is so dirty it just blended right in with the wall back there. I've probably walked by it 100 times...

Can anything be done about a saw that is fairly straight but not perfect? I got lucky and both of my $5 Disstons are straight as can be.

[Stew Hagerty]

Hands down, for someone who is even marginally new to hand tools, I would start with the LV molded spine saws. I have both the dovetail (rip) model & it's crosscut version sibling. The work amazingly well and are worth much more than the comparatively minimal price. I have a number of vintage saws from Diston and Mathieson & Sons of Scotland as well. I taught myself to sharpen, and they all work excellently however, when I'm working on small dovetails or crosscuts, I nearly always reach for my LV's.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

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Looks like an excuse to learn how to make a saw handle sometime in the future.... if the saw turns out to be usable..... Might not be if it is bent. No idea how you straighten those. I have heard people talk about it, but I have never had any success with it.

[Chris Hachet]

I agree with all. The LV saws are great value - I have 3. I also have 2 Japanese Dozuki saws. In my experience, you don't have to drop $250 on a saw right off the bat. (Unless you just plain WANT TO. But you dont HAVE TO.) Buy the LVs, learn to use them and then sell them for half of what you paid. Consider the "loss" to be tuition. It will also inform your future purchase of a fancier saw.

If you want a fancier saw, also consider Ron Bontz. He's a regular here and does beautiful work. (Google Bontz Saw Works.)

FredI have three of his saws, they do work very well.

[Chris Hachet]

Welcome to try any of mine..
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Just to see what fits your hand the best....Steven and I both have and use a number of older saws.

[Chris Hachet]

If you make it to the middle of Ohio, I will join you at Steve's house (he already offered his saws) and you can try mine as well!

Most of the saws will cut pretty well. So, assuming that your saw is good, there are a few differences (in my somewhat "new" opinion):



How does the saw feel in your hand? The handle should feel right in your hand. The better saws allow you to choose a handle size. My Lie Nielsen saw had a handle that was a bit small for me so it pinched. Lie Nielsen replaced the handle with something larger, and now it is too large. If you dare try to make your own handle, well, you can try until you get it right. I have not yet dared this...
How aggressive are the teeth? You can reword this to be how easy is the saw to start? One of my easiest saws to start is my Bad Axe saw because of how the saw was sharpened. I have never tried the Rob Cosman saw, but, it has 22 DPI at the front and 15 at the back, which makes the saw easier to start. Note that my saws that start the easiest cut the slowest. http://www.robcosman.com/tools_dtsaw.php
Hang angle of the handle. I believe Ron Bontz (http://www.bontzsawworks.net/), a member here, is one of the few that mentions hang angle on his site. Note that he makes really nice saws. Note that the hang angle has significant effect on how the force is directed so it also affects how easy the saw is to start.


Will you learn to sharpen your own saw? if so, you might want to simply start with a less expensive saw and sharpen it. Rob Cosman hs stated that he can make most saws cut well. The steel may not be good, the handle may be horrible, but you can sharpen it and make it cut. May have to sharpen it often, but still, it is a start. If you can attend a wood working show, you can probably try a few saws to see what you like. I like my Lee Valley saw, it is a decent saw, even if it is not my favorite handle.

In the back of my mind, I keep thinking that I want to try to make my own handle.

I own some of the new name brand saws because I was afraid to go it alone....Here is a third dude from Ohio that knows the first two guys....I probably have a dozen saws I use regularly, both old and new...Japanese and western...Bontz, Bad Axe and LN...Diston....I have a sturdy bench and a pile of wood scraps...come make sawdust....

[Kevin Hampshire]

Owen, When I was in your shoes, I bought two dovetail saws. A LN with progressive pitch and a LV. I still own the LN and the entire line of LV. The LV saws are fantastic. Take the money you'd spend on another brand and splurge for one of the sets from LV.

[Mark Fisher]

Well, here was my approach. I bought a vintage cross cut and rip Disston saws panel saws (actually bigger than panel), cleaned them up and sharpened them myself. I figured they are mainly for rough work so I wasn't worried about not having any experience in filing saws and the teeth are pretty big. They work as well as any saw I've ever used. I bought a largish vintage Disston tenon saw, cleaned it up and sent it to Mark at Bad Axe to be sharpened and tuned up. It needed more work than the panel saws. Lastly, I did order a Bad Axe small tenon/dovetail saw. I figured that the most precise saw should be my best.....plus I have small hands so a smaller handle helps with the precision (or so I tell myself). Honestly, I'd stick to vintage and have an expert sharpen it like Mark at Bad Axe. I've also played with the Lie Neilsen at a hand tool event and it was really very nice especially for the price.