Dove tail chisel

[Tom Bussey]

I have wanted a set of dove tailed chisels for a long time and I love the look of the Lie-Nielsen one. But the cost kind of out weighted the amount of times I would need one. On a comment I made a long time ago One person said why don't you just take an old chisel and grind it. My return comment was it just wouldn't look right, and I like nice looking tools. Well that was vanity speaking

As some of you know we have a antique -this and that store and I have a box of old chisels I pick up at auctions out on the table. Well I swallowed my pride and went out and got a 1/2 inch chisel, went over to my disk sander and went to work. I didn't swallow my pride completely because I did pick a good wood handled one that has a leather washer to help with mallet blows. I figured that it might have better steel in it.

I watch Lie-Nielsen's video on sharpening their dove tail chisel and I must say that mine is definitely not as pretty as theirs but it fits just fine in my Tormek jig so sharpening will be very easy to sharpen compared to theirs. As I have found most of the fish tailed chisels on the market need to be done free hand.

Anyway. I read somewhere that fish tailed chisels are sharpened at 15 degrees so I tried it and man does it slice nicely. Now I know just like everyone. who is anybody, in woodworking knows that the angle is 25 degrees for soft wood and 30 degrees for hard wood. And pattern makers prefer to set their tool rest at 27 1/2 degrees because they work with both. consistently so there is no need to reply about how you always use a certain angle and so on. Anyway I thought I would try the 15 degree angle because, like a micro bevel from 25-30, the angle is easy to change. I also had to spend some time flattening the back. This old used chisel also had some chips in the cutting edge and a burr.

Anyway it isn't pretty but I had a $3 price tag on it when I picked it out of the box and I am quite happy with how it turned out to date. In use it might require some fine tuning. I am not sure how well the 15 Degree angle will hold up but it is a very specializes tool now and it won't see any rough work only the final finish work so I will see.

I final note: if someone decides to give it a try, one needs to be very careful because once steel starts to turn light straw brown one is starting to take the hardness out of the steel, and the loss of hardness goes fare deaper than just removing the color.

Anyway it isn't real pretty but then it wasn't $78.


350692 350693

[Brian Holcombe]

Tom,

Taper the sides more. :D.....then re-apply the bevels.

[Bob Glenn]

I ground some chisels at a 20 degree angle and they all chipped.

[Jim Koepke]

Who cares about pretty if it does a good job?

Certainly not me,

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

Here's one I made from a 1/2" Stanley No. 60, handle from a piece of live oak scavenged from firewood at Yosemite.

You're right, it takes a long time and a lot of care to keep from burning the temper out of it, but it's worth the effort.

350702

[Mike Henderson]

Looks good. Another alternative is to make two skew chisels, one left and one right. I bought a couple of 1/4" Irwins and did that. They were $10 each (new) when I bought them.

Then, I got a 3/8" Blue Spruce fishtail as a gift one day.

But I find that I can clean the corners of half blind sockets pretty well without a skew or fishtail, so they don't get much use.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

+1. I made 2 skews from 1/4" Buck Brothers, based on something l found on your website Mike. They work like a charm!

[Jeff Ranck]

Looks good and it is a good idea to repurpose chisels. I believe George also posted some pictures of some fishtails he made using some W1 steel. He said they were very easy to make (basically hit the steel with a hammer and you have an automatic fishtail). I haven't tried it yet, but the idea appealed to me.

[Tom Bussey]

I have a couple of 1/2 inch crown skew chisels and I had trouble getting in tight places, That's why I wanted one in the first place. I do know that I will also make a dovetail chisel out of a smaller chisel I just don't know what I have a the present.

W1 is just water hardening steel nothing special. Water is the quench medium. Just like 01 is an oil quench and A is air hardening. One can buy a set of cheaper chisels for less money than one can probably buy a piece of W1 and then one has to have a way of getting the steel to quenching temperature and as soon as the steel starts to turn red the steel will start to de-carburize. Hitting it with a hammer sounds good and it is like someone saying OH you can get a grant for that and then walk away. Easy to say hard to do even with a lot of extra work.

I was a friends house delivering a band saw I sold him and I showed it to him and after a little use it stopped working. He said I had a burr on the cutting edge. But I didn't, it was a rolled cutting edge. That is why Butchers use a steel. Not to sharpen but to roll the cutting edge straight. That means that the 15degree cutting edge is to thin for much use so I am going to try a 20 Degree angle, It won't take much more that a micro bevel to get there. I do know that a 22 1/2 included angle is supposed to be the perfect cutting angle. but we will see. With all the work removing the mass changing the angle doesn't take much work .

[Frederick Skelly]

Nice fishtail chisel Tom! Let us know more as you get used to it, or conduct other "experiments".

Fred

[george wilson]

I URGE you guys to buy a piece of 1/4" square W1 cold drawn(not precision ground-cold drawn is cheaper,and still very accurate for making a chisel. Heat the end up and hammer it while still red hot(orange hot is better yet). Heat up the other end. Hammer it or just grind it into a tang.

To harden,just have a gallon can of water. Room temperature is fine. Too cold a quench increases the chance of warping. Heat it uo to orange color and hold it vertical and quench. You need only heat up about 1" of the flared end. Sand the top of the fishtail clean,so you can see the naked metal. Slowly heat the chisel to be a few inches from the future cutting edge. Let the brown color develop,and when it reaches the cutting edge,quench it again.

This is fun and a bit of adventure for the learner. But,after you have done this a few times,you will soon learn how to make special chisels and not have to buy them any more. You can make any special chisel you'd want,and be free of having to rely upon what you can buy. You can learn to control the hardness you'd like,not having to be at the mercy of store bought tools.

I might add that W1 and 01 do not decarb much at all. A2 does need protection from the air. But,you don't need to be concerned about A2 to make great tools. If you really want a bolster,saw a 1/8" thick disc off the end of a steel bar. Drill a hole the size of a square you want. File the hole into a square. Make the inside tapered to fitb the tang. Jam it on. It will not be going anywhere. File the edges down into an octagon. You can beat on it without worrying that the blade will recede into the handle. I don't bother with bolsters for push chisels.

[Bruce Haugen]

I only have a propane torch, George, which I don't believe will get steel up to a good forging or heat treating temperature. I've actually resisted getting into metal working. I can afford woodworking. I can't afford a metal shop, too.

[David Bassett]

I URGE you guys to buy a piece of 1/4" square W1 cold drawn....

George, thanks for the description, it's now on my list of things to try.

One question though, why W1? I've been told O1 is much easier to harden (I guess due to potential warping problems) and I've always understood they're otherwise similar. Does W1 have other advantages? Thanks!

[Tom Bussey]

I am a retired Tool and Die Maker and I spent 50 years machining tool steel. I am sure several of you have or have seen some of my precision grinding work on planes. And In those 50 years I also taught a two year tool and die course at a community collage for ten years. One of those coarse was a 3 credit course in heat treat. And you are opening a can of worms. Most home shops, including mine don't have even the torch to heat the steel to the correct temp. If you take it to orange you will be in the 1750 range which is to hot for W1, 01 heat treats at 1475 which is bright red. To hot and steel loses its ability to magnetize. Lots of other thing also happen. I have no experience with water hardening steel it was not one used in my line of work, But if using a torch on small O1 you have to have the heat going up in the steel if you get it red and it waits to long, even while red, before quenching it will not harden to what it needs to be.

Normally steel is brought into the austenite zone and allowed to soak for one hour per inch so if the block is 2 inches then 2 hours. I has to be done in an atmospheric furnace or wrapped in HT foil to keep it from de-carbing. If you heat any steel to even dull red you will see a black scale start to form, that is de-cerebration.

An old wives tail that you use a file to test for hardness, if it cuts it is not hard. But files are usually around 63 on a Rockwell C scale. if it if the part is Rock C 62 it will cut. Steel is supposed to harden higher, in a lab it does but in the shop it is a little lower. much like the gas milage on the window sticker and what you actually get when you are driving

As far as warping goes the steel has to go in straight as quickly as possible if flat or at an angle it will warp. One side will harden before the other causing the warp. Soak one side of a board with water and not the other and see what happens.

I also know that people do what they want to do so if you wish to forge W1 go for it. It is your time and money.

And one last thing. This response has nothing to do with the original post. If a person wishes to expound on heat treating tool steels he should do it in his own post.

[Derek Cohen]

This is the first fishtail chisel I made about 15 years ago (influenced by Rob Colman). The steel came from a derelict Witherby. The bevel is 20 degrees for pushing into corners of sockets. The chisel is just for cleaning up waste in corners.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailchisel1.jpg

Inspite if of the unusual handle, it was very comfortable to push.

The chisel was eventually retired after I acquired fishtails from Blue Spruce.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Bruce: a propane torch is plenty enough heat to make a small chisel. Take a few bricks and lay them in an "L" shape to make a corner to lay your chisel in. It is really surprising how much more heat you can bring to an object if it's laid in a corner,so the heat isn't so easily lost.

About 01: W1 will take a keener edge than 01,and is a lot cheaper since it isn't precision ground. 01 will get plenty sharp,and will stay sharp a bit longer-your choice. Precision ground is also "sharp" enough on the corners of the bar that you'll want to blunt the corners a little with a file. Cold drawn is fine,and will not irritate your hand like a precision ground corner will. You can use either steel. If you use 01,keep a gallon can,or even a quart can of vegetable oil,automatic transmission fluid or CLEAN fairly light motor oil to quench your chisel in.

The general rule is that the quench should be large enough to not get significant temper increase when you quench your tool in it.

Here are some simple chisels and small gouges I made back when I had no real anvil,only a propane torch,and just used a few bricks as a "hearth". No bolsters: these are "push" chisels. I still use them. The fishtail at 5:00 is a flat dovetail chisel.

Since the OP's post was about "making" a dovetail chisel,and this and my other post are also about making a dovetail chisel,I don't think it is out of place. Besides,it is a better approach than mutilating an old chisel,and will make an attractive tool. You'll sometimes see identical tools made long ago by some craftsman for his own use. I think the W1 steel for these was about $2.00 for a 3' piece. Not quite that cheap now,but still plenty cheap,and MUCH cheaper than buying the tools. I think I carved the lute rose with these. " Quick and dirty" walnut handles,but,actually,fairly 18th. C. style. At the time,I was re handling 75 carving tools I had bought,and used as easy a design as possible!

[Robert Engel]

I think Rob Cosman makes and sells a similar type chisel. I prefer a single bevel fishtail (that's probably what you're referring to as the LN DT chisel?).

Personally, I've tried skew chisels and for me they are of limited value because the angles are too steep, plus you have to use two chisels.

BTW, the key to a good DT chisel is a low side bevel height (thickness from the back to the start of the bevel). A high side bevel tends to bruise the corners of the tails when chopping out. Some chisels have very low SBH's (most notably LN and Ashley Iles) some are quite thick (Stanley 750 and Irwin Marples). The Narex premiums are kind of in the middle. Fine Ww'ing has an excellent chisel review with comparisons of SBH.

I have decided to start acquiring LN chisels when I have some extra cash laying around in a couple years I should have a full set.

[Pat Barry]

Bruce: a propane torch is plenty enough heat to make a small chisel. Take a few bricks and lay them in an "L" shape to make a corner to lay your chisel in. It is really surprising how much more heat you can bring to an object if it's laid in a corner,so the heat isn't so easily lost.

About 01: W1 will take a keener edge than 01,and is a lot cheaper since it isn't precision ground. 01 will get plenty sharp,and will stay sharp a bit longer-your choice. Precision ground is also "sharp" enough on the corners of the bar that you'll want to blunt the corners a little with a file. Cold drawn is fine,and will not irritate your hand like a precision ground corner will. You can use either steel. If you use 01,keep a gallon can,or even a quart can of vegetable oil,automatic transmission fluid or CLEAN fairly light motor oil to quench your chisel in.

The general rule is that the quench should be large enough to not get significant temper increase when you quench your tool in it.

Here are some simple chisels and small gouges I made back when I had no real anvil,only a propane torch,and just used a few bricks as a "hearth". No bolsters: these are "push" chisels. I still use them. The fishtail at 5:00 is a flat dovetail chisel.

Since the OP's post was about "making" a dovetail chisel,and this and my other post are also about making a dovetail chisel,I don't think it is out of place. Besides,it is a better approach than mutilating an old chisel,and will make an attractive tool. You'll sometimes see identical tools made long ago by some craftsman for his own use. I think the W1 steel for these was about $2.00 for a 3' piece. Not quite that cheap now,but still plenty cheap,and MUCH cheaper than buying the tools. I think I carved the lute rose with these. " Quick and dirty" walnut handles,but,actually,fairly 18th. C. style. At the time,I was re handling 75 carving tools I had bought,and used as easy a design as possible!
So George, you've mentioned this type of thing before but I don't recall. How do you determine if you have the material hot enough to pound it into the desired shape. Then, when it cools off too much to work, do you just reheat it and continue on? As a last step to do you heat and then quench without working it?

[Tom Bussey]

This is the first fishtail chisel I made about 15 years ago (influenced by Rob Colman). The steel came from a derelict Witherby. The bevel is 20 degrees for pushing into corners of sockets. The chisel is just for cleaning up waste in corners.

Thanks for sharing the information. I know the chisel is just for cleaning up waste in corners, but others may not, nicely stated. And down the road maybe I too will buy the Lie-Nielsen fish tail.

Influenced by Rob Colman also stands out. I hope I also influenced someone with this post.

[Pat Barry]

This is the first fishtail chisel I made about 15 years ago (influenced by Rob Colman). The steel came from a derelict Witherby. The bevel is 20 degrees for pushing into corners of sockets. The chisel is just for cleaning up waste in corners.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailchisel1.jpg

Inspite if of the unusual handle, it was very comfortable to push.

The chisel was eventually retired after I acquired fishtails from Blue Spruce.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Sorry Derek - do you mean Rob Cosman?

[Derek Cohen]

Yes Pat. Sometimes I get weird automatic spelling corrections on the iPad.

Regards from Perth

Kered

[Mike Henderson]

This is a bit off topic so please forgive me. I have both skew chisels in different sizes and a couple of fishtails - but I rarely use them. Traditionally, they're used to clean the corners of half-blind dovetail sockets but I find that I can clean them well enough with a narrow regular square across chisel. To do do, I'm cutting into the bottom of the socket with one side of the chisel but that doesn't matter because it doesn't show. I do it that way because it's faster - I don't have to change chisels.

Of course, if you're going for a very narrow lip on the bottom of the half-blind socket you can't do that, but I rarely go that thin. I'm mostly doing "practical" half-blinds and not "show" half blinds.

So my questions to those of you who have skews and/or fishtails is, "What do you use them for? And how often do you use them?" "Do you use them for things other than half-blind dovetails?"

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]

So my questions to those of you who have skews and/or fishtails is, "What do you use them for? And how often do you use them?" "Do you use them for things other than half-blind dovetails?"

Mike

The skewed blade presents a lower cutting angle going across grain when cleaning the bottom of a dovetail. Mostly for me it is only if the wood is causing some problem. Otherwise a sharp straight edge chisel does the job.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

This is a bit off topic so please forgive me. I have both skew chisels in different sizes and a couple of fishtails - but I rarely use them. Traditionally, they're used to clean the corners of half-blind dovetail sockets but I find that I can clean them well enough with a narrow regular square across chisel. To do do, I'm cutting into the bottom of the socket with one side of the chisel but that doesn't matter because it doesn't show. I do it that way because it's faster - I don't have to change chisels.

Of course, if you're going for a very narrow lip on the bottom of the half-blind socket you can't do that, but I rarely go that thin. I'm mostly doing "practical" half-blinds and not "show" half blinds.

So my questions to those of you who have skews and/or fishtails is, "What do you use them for? And how often do you use them?" "Do you use them for things other than half-blind dovetails?"

Mike

I have fishtail chisels setup to be chopped with, and just cutout the half blind with that. I make my dovetails with a 14 degree layout, so those corners are much tighter for me than for others.

[Mike Henderson]

I have fishtail chisels setup to be chopped with, and just cutout the half blind with that. I make my dovetails with a 14 degree layout, so those corners are much tighter for me than for others.
Why do you go that steep on your dovetails? Is it for looks, or...?

14 degrees is about 1 to 4. Most of the recommendations for dovetails are closer to 1:6 to 1:9

The problem I've always had with steep dovetails is that the corners can break off.

Mike

[Bruce Haugen]

So my questions to those of you who have skews and/or fishtails is, "What do you use them for? And how often do you use them?" "Do you use them for things other than half-blind dovetails?"

Mike

I use them (both skew and fishtail) only for cleaning out corners in half blind dovetails.

[Brian Holcombe]

Why do you go that steep on your dovetails? Is it for looks, or...?

14 degrees is about 1 to 4. Most of the recommendations for dovetails are closer to 1:6 to 1:9

The problem I've always had with steep dovetails is that the corners can break off.

Mike

I like how they look better, especially in small parts like 5/16", but I use it on case goods unto 3/4". Over that and I back it down to 1/6.

They aren't fragile in my experience and I've cut about 300-400 dovetails this past year.

Look at Nakashima furniture, they use something steeper still.

[george wilson]

Pat,it is necessary to reheat the steel when pounding it into the fishtail)or any other shape) if it gets cooled below red hot Otherwise it will crack if you keep beating on it.

The final heat for hardening is the one that sets the hardness of the steel. It will also affect how well it responds to the tempering heat.

As for decarbing,simple steels like W1 and 01 of course DO get a very thin layer of decarb on them.But,by the time you've polished the surface bright again,the decarb is gone.

If you want to be extra careful about decarbing,as I also do when making riffler files,you can get PBC No Scale from Brownell's Gunsmith Supply. Heat up your steel to a light brown and dip it into the no Scale. When you heat the tool and quench it in water,the No Scale just flies off,leaving a nice,clean,unblemished surface. If quenched in oil,a bit of scrubbing with soapy water will get it off. Or,you could immerse small tools in boiling water to get rid of the No Scale.

I have used an 18th. C. formula to make my own no scale,and it also worked,though not leaving quite as blemish free a surface as the PBC. Take a half cup of flour. Add a 1/4 teaspoon of yeast and a pinch of salt. Add water and stir until you get a batter thicker than pancake batter. Too thin,and the batter will not stick on the tool thick enough to sufficiently protect it. After the tool is good and coated,heat it to hardening temp and quench. The trouble with the old formula is it smells like burnt bread. And,it will rot even if left in the fridge for a few days. Stubbs,the famous English tool co.,used "beer leavings" to coat their files. Those old timers found uses for everything,it seems!

Air hardening steels like A2 will decarb badly if not protected from the air. I mean,sometimes nearly 1/32" deep. Depends upon the alloy and how hot it got,and for how long. Air hardening steels need to be hardened while wrapped in HIGH TEMPERATURE stainless steel foil. There are 2 grades of this foil. The more expensive of the 2 is the one that stands temperatures high enough to heat treat air hardening alloys. You will have to grind away decarbing if you must forge such alloys in the open air.

But,these more exotic alloys need not be of concern here. W1 and 01 will do whatever you need them to,especially in a limited use tool such as a fishtail chisel that you use for a short time ti clean out dovetails. That and a lot more.

Those miserable Mexican Nicholson triangular files I got were badly decarbed to well below the depth of their teeth. Soft as normal mild steel. They seem to have solved their production problems by now. I'd still be careful to save your receipt in case you buy an older Mexican file and find it as soft as butter. You will want to return those.

[Derek Cohen]

About the design - and choosing - of fishtail chisels for cleaning sockets ...

I have a few different types, including ones I have made. Below is a Blue Spruce along with the first Koyamaichi fishtail made ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Koyamaichi%20chisels/5.jpg

The first point is that the sides of the blade benefit from having a flat rather than ending in sharp lands. This is to prevent the blade digging into the sidewall of the socket.

The second point is similar - Choose an angle for the fishtail as close to the angle of the socket. If the chisel presents too sharp an angle, it will dig in. One does not need lots of angles. One close to what you most often use is best.

I hear of some using a 1/8" chisel and arguing that it does not matter if there are gouges in the corner. Well, probably not, but I will also conclude that the sockets are widely spaced. One has to be careful in this area with narrow pins since any slip will destroy it.

The area of difficulty with narrow pins is when paring away waste. A well designed and well fitting fishtail chisel helps enormously.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jerry Olexa]

Much good info here...Good thread