kneewall built ins - structural question

[laura vianello]

I have knee walls completely plastered. They have openings for cabinet door frames that I plan to build. The opening are framed with 2x4 on each side which will make very easy to attach the face frame and a casing. They are plastered inside and will be painted. My question is: do I have to build a complete cabinet in order to have drawers and pull out or, I can build a casing for the opening and the face frame and have drawers and pull out bins mounted on 2x4 which I will install to separate each section?
In other words: the right opening in the central picture will be a pull out cabinet with shelves for shoes (I will mount Tandem Blum slides under it). An example of roll-out cab is shown in the first picture. The second opening in the center picture will have drawers like the ones shown in the third picture (example from the web).
We are building storage and beside the face frame and doors, nobody will look into the cabs to see what material we used. So.. we want to stay on a cheap side but being sturdy because the opening are wide and the drawers will be wide.
I am open for suggestions. Thanks

[Joe Jensen]

I assume the center pic is either your space or it's representative of your project. You don't need full cabinets but you do need supports front and rear for the blum Tandem slides. And the slides need to be very square to the face and the same distance apart front and back. I would make a frame for the rear that matches the openings on the front and screw to the floor and then use some cleat or something to fasten to the top.

[John Lankers]

You don't need to build complete cabinets, however I would not use 2x4 lumber as dividers between the compartments, it is likely to twist and cause the drawer slides to malfunction. Plywood would be a much better choice IMO.

[Jerry Miner]

Lots of ways to skin this cat. I've been building and installing cabinets and remodeling houses for about 40 years. I've seen a lot of variations on cabinet construction.

You don't need a whole box, but if it were me, I would build a box (you can use construction-grade plywood if you want, rather than "cabinet grade" ply) to keep everything square and in line and in plane. (Easier to install drawers and slides in a square box than framing them in one-by-one in a rough opening). Install the box, then put a face frame on it.

[laura vianello]

Hello Joe, The center pic is my project, you are correct. The Blum Slide that I have do not need support front and back because they are attached on the side of the cabinet. I can have a face frame with stiles to sit the hardware (I am not sure it is the right term) but typically I use blocks on the side. I guess if I use stiles probably I can really skip the partitions as you suggested but I need to build the back aligned with the front. Scary thing to do :(. Thanks for your input!

[Malcolm McLeod]

Lots of ways to skin this cat. I've been building and installing cabinets and remodeling houses for about 40 years. I've seen a lot of variations on cabinet construction.

You don't need a whole box, but if it were me, I would build a box (you can use construction-grade plywood if you want, rather than "cabinet grade" ply) to keep everything square and in line and in plane. (Easier to install drawers and slides in a square box than framing them in one-by-one in a rough opening). Install the box, then put a face frame on it.

I've built similar, and also recommend building a plywood box. If nothing else, it will protect the contents from being chewed on or nested in by any critter that makes it into the attic.

[Joe Jensen]

Laura, after reading the other posts, and having done something like this. The quickest and easiest would be to build boxes that are square and slip them in through the opening. The downside would be that you would have a smaller drawer (the thickness of two sides of the box), and a little cost for some cheap 1/2" plywood. The upside is that it will be way easier to get the slides mounted and it will be quicker. I'd do this I think.


Hello Joe, The center pic is my project, you are correct. The Blum Slide that I have do not need support front and back because they are attached on the side of the cabinet. I can have a face frame with stiles to sit the hardware (I am not sure it is the right term) but typically I use blocks on the side. I guess if I use stiles probably I can really skip the partitions as you suggested but I need to build the back aligned with the front. Scary thing to do :(. Thanks for your input!

[laura vianello]

The attic is critter proof. It was insulated with spray foam...no creature can chew that. Not even an electrician try to pull a new wire. Thanks for your help.

[Malcolm McLeod]

The attic is critter proof. It was insulated with spray foam...no creature can chew that. Not even an electrician try to pull a new wire. Thanks for your help.

Laura,
I'll offer what little advice I can, and please build with the time, budget, design, and materials that you have available or find pleasing.

But, I have seen squirrels and rats go through (open cell) spray foam like s%!^ through a goose in 2 different houses. I don't know the specifics about your insulation, or what you've been told in this regard, but I would not count on foam being critter proof.

Good luck and pics of what you build.:)

[Jim Dwight]

I don't like them but there are pieces that let you attach side mount drawer guides to the back of the cabinet instead of the sides. That would let you put a piece of plywood on the back but not the sides of the area. But you would have to attach the brackets very accurately for the drawers to work well. I think attaching side mounts by the sides is the way to go.

So I would agree with the other inputs to make at least a crude box to support the drawer slides and help keep the drawers isolated from the house. It doesn't have to be carried through the house assembled, however. You could make the pieces in the shop and assemble it in the area it will be mounted in. Pocket screws or through screws would be completely acceptable joints if I was making it. Staples also should work fine and are cheaper and faster. I like to use shallow dados just to make it easier to assemble things. For something like a cabinet with decent sized pieces, I like to use my router on a track saw track.

[Tim Bueler]

Lots of ways to skin this cat. I've been building and installing cabinets and remodeling houses for about 40 years. I've seen a lot of variations on cabinet construction.

You don't need a whole box, but if it were me, I would build a box (you can use construction-grade plywood if you want, rather than "cabinet grade" ply) to keep everything square and in line and in plane. (Easier to install drawers and slides in a square box than framing them in one-by-one in a rough opening). Install the box, then put a face frame on it.

+1 on that although I don't have as much experience as Jerry...I only have 30 yrs. :rolleyes:

[Mel Fulks]

I've got a place that could use something like that. Used furniture including early 19th century dovetailed chests are really cheap now. I'm thinking of just using some of that stuff as I won't have enough weight in the drawers to require modern slides. I've seen mahogany Empire stuff for under $100 that did not even need drawer reshoeing. Not my favorite style but there is so much of the stuff that I don't have any qualms about some modernizing.

[laura vianello]

Joe, I re-read your reply. The slides will be under mounted, they will be sitting on the floor and the pull out will be on top. I really cannot figure out why I need sides of a cabinet box. The real box will be the pullout cabinet that will slide out mounted on Blum Tandem concealed soft closed slides. If I used ball bearing KV (for example) slides, I would understand that I need sides to mount the slides on but the Blum are mounted like a garbage pull out bin. Maybe I am not clear with my explanation. I apologize.

[laura vianello]

My insulation is Closed cell. Well, I tried to cut it with a knife but I could not. ;)

[laura vianello]

I thought about that too (and use the idea in another project), great idea! Hovewer because it is going to be also my office space, I need something modern, organized and style uniform (I have 7 cabs and a desk to build)...I am there day and sometimes at night and I would go crazy if it does not look good. All cabs needs to look the same.

[Dan Scullin]

I just went through almost exactly what you are showing and from my experience... I would (second time around) build a box, fit the drawers and slide it in to place. Getting the drawers to line up and slide properly by building in place took a lot longer than if I'd have built it outside, slid it and shimmed it into place and then trimmed it out.

[Malcolm McLeod]

My insulation is Closed cell. Well, I tried to cut it with a knife but I could not. ;)

Nor could I cut the new WRC board and batten gables on my FIL's house with a knife. But the squirrels (fuzzy tailed rats!) went thru it in 2 days. In 3 places. The foam behind didn't even slow them down.;) My wife and I arrived for the following weekend and the squirrels were having a barn dance in the attic for our entire stay. Must have been 30 of them, from the sound of it. I was ready to burn the house by the time we left!

...Not trying to be 'right'; just passing along an amusing story. I truly hope you never have similar problems.

[laura vianello]

Sorry I just saw this. Building a box was not an option because the drawers were too big and material would have been too expensive and heavy for a no power human being like me. In addition the drawers rest on ducting so the boxes could not be simply slide into place...a little complex thanks!!