hand plane question

[Todd Roseberry]

I'm new to Sawill Creek forums. I recently posted that I'm preparing to build a workbench by laminating a top with Southern Yellow Pine. I'm purchasing tools and trying to education myself on this subject. I'm also looking for hand tools, specifically planes appropriate for building my bench. I've spent most of my time on E-bay. I did purchase a old Stanley No. 7 but I know I need another plane to rough things out. I have a couple issues that I need your help on.

1. I'm debating whether to buy a No. 5 or a No. 6 Stanley style plane. I don't care the brand, Stanley, Sargents, Millers Falls, etc... I will be ripping out 2x12's and planning them flat to laminate. I will also have to flatten my bench top. i know I'll end up using my No. 7 but not sure about the 5 or 6. Your advice is appreciated.


2. I don't like buying blindly on E-bay. I'm interested in getting an older plane in good condition or one that has been refurbished. I would appreciate it if someone would point me in the right direction, either by pointing me to a website, private person or even a particular seller on E-bay that is reputable. I hope this is an appropriate question for this forum. I know I could buy new but I am buying quite a few other tools for my shop and I have to make choices. Besides, I look older stuff anyway.

Thank you for all your help. May it be blessed.

Todd

[lowell holmes]

I have a collection of Stanley planes all the way up to a 607.

The plane I use most is a #3 Bailey. I have a #6 that I never use. It is too close to the #7.
I use my 604 frequently as well.

The traditional small collection would be a #4, #5 and a #7.
I think you need a scrub plane to do what you describe.
I use my #3 with a severely rounded edge rather than the flat edge iron as a make do scrub plane.

A scrub plane is used when flattening a board or planing it thinner.

[Owen Stefaniak]

I would advise caution with regard to Ebay. I know you already voiced some concern there. I have bought a few real gems there, and a few duds. As you say, it can be really hard to tell what you are getting into. And a lot of the time you may be dealing with someone that is just flipping stuff from an estate sale and has no idea how to use the tool or tell you anything meaningful about it. That being said, there are good tools and deals out there on ebay, you just need to be cautious.

As for private sellers, from my experience Josh Clark is great. He doesn't always have planes available at the given moment, but if you are willing to be patient I would keep an eye on website. I bought a Stanley #5 from him not too long ago for a very reasonable price given its condition. The thing is a real beauty. I'm sure he probably could have gotten more than he charged me. Incidentally, he didn't have it listed at the time. I just contacted him and told him I was looking for a jack plane. He got back to me a few days later with 3 to chose from, so you could just try to email him if you have something specific in mind. He is really nice to deal with and his prices are very fair. Oh another awesome thing I almost forgot about, he sends you the tools before you pay for them. An invoice is included (which you can pay online) and that way you can inspect the tools and decide if you want to keep it or send back. His website: http://hyperkitten.com/

Another good one to try is Sandy Moss's tool page. I haven't purchased there yet personally but it is updated pretty regularly and the prices are usually geared more toward users, with a few occasional expensive collector items. http://sydnassloot.com/tools.htm

Jim Bode usually has a large selection of tools available. A lot of the stuff there is more collectible and the prices reflect that. http://www.jimbodetools.com/

Hope that helps

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Todd and Owen, a hearty welcome for both of you to the Creek.

Even when one tries to pay attention to everything, a bad plane can still end up on your doorstep when purchasing through ebay.

Ebay has changed immensely over the past decade. It has become difficult to root out a bunch of rust and sell it on ebay for a profit.

Since you already have a #7 you might be better served by a #5 size plane. It will be easier to push the #5 around as a scrub plane on the top than it would be a #6.

As Lowell said, the traditional starting set of planes is the #4, #5 & a #7. There is history and reason behind this. Then there are those of us who ignore convention and go ahead and get at least one of each size.

jtk

[Robert Engel]

You said you're interested in vintage planes, but I think its worth your while to look into WoodRiver planes. I've got 3 now and very pleased. The V3's have very nice adjustments. IMO they are the best value out there for a new plane. IMO compared to the Stanley's and other vintage planes, the casting is heavier, the blade is thicker, the cap iron is better and the adjustments are more precise. Yes, they're made in China but I have found them to be quite comparable to even a LN.

I've been down the Stanley Ebay/refurb route and overall been disappointed. Not everyone's experience, but IMO look but be VERY careful and VERY observant of the pics. Too many times I've opened the box and "wow I didn't see that cracked side/broken tote/missing frog screw/lousy blade/plastic handle/rust.....). I know that's my own fault but it all stemmed from going the cheap route and in the end it wasn't worth it.

Keep in mind most of those old planes are 1. old and 2 well used. Because of that I finally gave up on all the fiddling/fettling/slop/spinning the lever screw/failure to hold settings/unflat soles/out of square sides. I tried a #4 WR expecting it to be a POJ and probably send it back. I not only kept it, I now have WR's #6, 7 and both block planes. I eventually resold all my refurbed Stanley planes on Ebay.

BTW you can make a scrub plane out of a cheap #4 just by cambering the iron and widening the mouth.

Good luck with your build and my the grain be away from you :D

[lowell holmes]

Jim,

How many hand planes do you own?:)

[Chris Hachet]

Conversely, I find a #6 highly useful. Steven Newman helped me find a gem of a type 15 for $45 that was just pristine...oddly enough it seems to love the figured maple and purpleheart we have been working with building guitars. It also feels very right in my hand and I can joint a very good edge with it.

A scrub plane can be made from an old #4...you will need a few tricks to get it good and sharp. You may or may not need a scrub depending on the quality of your glue up.

See what you can find in person from other woodworkers in your area. I would not pay Ebay prices for any vintage plane, they are off the chart and off the chain IMHO...

If you can afford it a low angle jack from LV or LN would be nice and a good start in hand planes. If you cannot do that, the Wood River LAJ (low angle Jack) is a darned nice plane. Brian, the gentleman I share my workshop with bought one and I have been enjoying its use on some projects. Definitely not as nice as the LV or LN, but a very decent piece.

If anything with an older plane, I like to be able to use them before I buy them. They seem to have different personalities, and I want a tool I am very comfortable with if I am going to use it intimately for a long time.

Also, contrary to popular belief, the post WWII planes from the 1950's and 1960's from stanley can be made into respectable performers and are cheaper than the earlier items.

...and yes, I am going to get hate for saying this, but I would be buying wood river before I would pay Ebay prices for a vintage Stanley.

That being said, I have vintage stanley planes that I have used for 30 plus years on a regular basis for all sorts of work that perform very well.

[Chris Hachet]

You said you're interested in vintage planes, but I think its worth your while to look into WoodRiver planes. I've got 3 now and very pleased. The V3's have very nice adjustments. IMO they are the best value out there for a new plane. IMO compared to the Stanley's and other vintage planes, the casting is heavier, the blade is thicker, the cap iron is better and the adjustments are more precise. Yes, they're made in China but I have found them to be quite comparable to even a LN.

I've been down the Stanley Ebay/refurb route and overall been disappointed. Not everyone's experience, but IMO look but be VERY careful and VERY observant of the pics. Too many times I've opened the box and "wow I didn't see that cracked side/broken tote/missing frog screw/lousy blade/plastic handle/rust.....). I know that's my own fault but it all stemmed from going the cheap route and in the end it wasn't worth it.

Keep in mind most of those old planes are 1. old and 2 well used. Because of that I finally gave up on all the fiddling/fettling/slop/spinning the lever screw/failure to hold settings/unflat soles/out of square sides. I tried a #4 WR expecting it to be a POJ and probably send it back. I not only kept it, I now have WR's #6, 7 and both block planes. I eventually resold all my refurbed Stanley planes on Ebay.

BTW you can make a scrub plane out of a cheap #4 just by cambering the iron and widening the mouth.

Good luck with your build and my the grain be away from you :DGee, someone agreed with me in the very next post. I have been thinking WR for a 5 1/2 as I am not sure I want to pay LN prices for one...

But I will disagree a bit...my LN will outperform a WR, but a WR plane will pull a consistent shaving you can read the New York Times through...PMV 11 is also very, very nice from LV....it seems to hold an age into the next millennium....even under heavy use...

[Chris Hachet]

Jim,

How many hand planes do you own?:)Not enough.....one can always have more...I want the LV plow plane and the LV skew rabbit plane....still have not given up on the idea for an infill or two....

Also, back to WR, it is good to watch sales as Woodcraft often has very good deals on these.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Todd, I will give you the advice that I have always given to those who want to progress with the least false starts and need to backtrack. Find a local woodworking club and become active, even better would be a local mentor. Clubs/Guilds offer you a wide variety of opinions and the ability to validate them almost immediately from both observation and interaction. Videos on line are good, but don't offer the ability to have points of confusion clarified immediately. This approach is cheaper in both time and money than taking a professionally run class though that is also effective. For instance, our NH guild has specialty group on Period Furniture, woodturning, boat building, hand tools, and a beginner -intermediate instructional group. Joining our NH guild was one of the best woodworking moves I ever made some 23 years ago.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

How many hand planes do you own?:)

If you count only the Bailey style bench planes it is somewhere around 25.

If you count all the block planes, combination planes, specialty planes, molding planes and others... I have no idea lost track (stopped counting) somewhere around 60 or so. That was before buying a whole bunch of molding planes.

I have seen pictures of shops where people have a heck of a lot more than me.

jtk

[Jerry Olexa]

Concerning EBay, be very careful....Study the pics carefully..You can get burned there...Occasionally, you'll find a diamond in the rough...I urge caution before you plunge.

[Phil Mueller]

Todd, I'll second the comments regarding Josh at hyperkitten...very nice to work with. You could also look up Patrick Leach (just google his name). He's written a tome on Stanley Planes called Blood and Gore, and sells vintage tools through a monthly listing. He often has a variety of planes available. I would say he is on the upper end of vintage pricing, but everything I have purchased from him is in solid, working order.

[steven c newman]

Some of my planes are Fleebay ones, and some are from local sales. I managed to get the "basic set" of good users over the past few years. I think I might have a "spare" No.5 Jack plane, IF you want to try one out.

Spent a lot of time, figuring out which planes work for me, and which do not. I do have a running tally of planes that come through the shop, usually I just tune them up, and send them on their way. I do sell a few just so I can buy a few. Never-endy circle. At one time....there was almost 50 planes in the shop! I have pared it down to just enough to do a bit of work in the shop. Takes a bit of will-power, though....
350736
This is most of the bench planes....

[Dan Barr]

Get a stanley No. 5. It is one of the most useful sizes. Great all around plane and is the perfect size to use on a shooting board. You've already got a 7. 6 is too close to that. Get a no. 5 and a no. 4. Mouth needs to be in good shape, blade should still have length, sole/sides need to be free of rust/pitting. Frog should be clean with screws in place, lateral adjustment should be present and functional. Tote and front handle need to be whole. Bottom line: whole planes, all pieces present, good "user" plane, avoid rust and pitting.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

You ever hear the saying that you can never have too many hand planes? Well, it is probably true, but, there is a question of storage...

How much do you know about sharpening or tuning up a hand plane? I can make it sharp. For sure I am not the best at it, but I can make it sharp. I have tuned a few planes, but, I am better at sharpening and have had to rely on others for a few tricky things (thank you Steve, for example).

So, if I handed you a brand new plane where the blade, do you have what you need to sharpen it? My first hand plane was a Lie Nielsen because I was terrified of having to tune-up or sharpen. I just needed to fix a door and for that I needed a hand plane. The plane worked great out of the box.

I was given a #4 to sell for a neighbor, I still have not posted it, too busy..... But, the blade was in bad shape and I needed help tuning it up. The bottom was not flat, it only touched at the very front and very back. It was totally not usable. Well, now it is usable.

I was given a couple of planes that are new in package and they have an OK rep, but the one I did check took a lot of work on the blade to flatten the back. My opinion is that you should not freak out about this because we can help you through all of this, but, you have to make a decision about what you are willing and able to do.

I am guessing that you do not have cause to wander into Ohio much, but if you do, we can arrange for you to try a few.

[Chris Hachet]

I am guessing that you do not have cause to wander into Ohio much, but if you do, we can arrange for you to try a few.

I will second everything he said, especially the willing to let you try a few. Andrew and I live about 30 minutes apart, and have quite the collection of both old and new planes between us.

Also would suggest trying to tune up a junk plane, because it will teach you (painfully) everything that can go wrong with them...and you will also really be able to appreciate what is right about the LV, LN, WR, and vintage Stanley planes.

You will also be able to keep your new plane working properly, because you will need to learn to sharpen and adjust it....a learning curve for me, but once I got it, a huge boost to my woodworking.

Being able to joint edges straight without spending a grand on a powered joiner, and being able to get surfaces smooth without hours of sanding are a good start....fine tuning joints to fit sweetly is another huge benefit...

Being able to plane the dovetails on a drawer side and not over sand them so the inset drawer matches the face frame properly is another huge benefit of proper plane usage.