Thin pins..

[Patrick Walsh]

I dont know what i was thinking laying my pins dovetails out so that my pins would be so small. I started doing my layout and just went with it figuring it would be a good challenge.

So now the questions. I cut my tails first. I then marked my tails for the pins with a Blue Spuce marking knife.mi found it very very hard to reference the edge of my tails. At this point i already began to have concerns how acurate my pins would end up.

Well as expected they turned out a bit small in places.

So the question is when doing dovetails this tight that result in such a thin pin how do people accuately transfer their marks. I began to think that this may be a case where pins first makes sense?

[Patrick Walsh]

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[Derek Cohen]

Hi Patrick

Cleary you have not paid attention to my posts! :)

This is one of the reasons for using blue tape - you only need to make one stroke with the knife, not repeatedly. Below is an extract from an article on my website:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_680b39b.jpg


The top (only) of the pin board is covered in blue tape (note that there is an uncovered section in the photo above. This will be sawn away here as this drawer front is curved).


Score the top baseline for the pins with a cutting gauge. The line will be easily seen against the tape.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_4f000b1e.jpg


Add a line of tape at the lower baseline.




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m7d736cb9.jpg


Now turn the pin board around to transfer the measurements from the tails.


I use a wide chisel as a straight edge to align the sides.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m5a0882f5.jpg


For transferring the lines, the only marking knife I have that fits in the saw kerf (while riding flush against the dovetail wall) is the Vesper thin “Cohen” knife. A Stanley knife may work as well, but note that it has a slight double bevel (will not cut flush with the wall).


One advantage of the blue tape is that only one knife score is required, in contrast to the repeated score marks on bare wood, which is often necessary to create an indelible line.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m4f882f92.jpg


Peel away the tape from the waste sections. Drop pencil or knife lines from the dovetail to the lower base line.




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m299ba2fb.jpg


It is much easier to saw against the tape with a contrast this distinct.

Reference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I often do this myself..... I stole the idea from Derek...

[Patrick Walsh]

Crap i need another tool to master yet another task. The "Cohen Vespar thin knife" what is one to do.

All jokes aside thank you for the guidance. I will update as i make progress. It will be slow as i also have a full kitchen of beaded face frame cabinetts and doors and drawers to build. I was going to do a applied beaded moulding but i have decided on just jack mitering everything together and putting the bead right on the stiles and rails.

Also i was going to order all the doors and drawers and just make the carcasses and face frames and instal hardware. The customer has now decided he wants me to build everything. I kinda dont know what i was thinking even startinging this other cabinet with the thin pins.

Guess i just need something that required exacting work to keep me inspired?

[Brian Holcombe]

Ask him if he wants thin pinned dovetails for his kitchen cabinet drawers. :D That will give you plenty of practice...

When you cut them for drawers, the drawer sides are significantly thinner than that case material, that makes it much easier to transfer the mark. I would cut thicker pins for a case, especially if they're through dovetails. If you need a challenge then miter the outside corners ;)

[David Eisenhauer]

Geez guys, those are some thin pins. My sawing is not up to that at this point.

[Andrew Hughes]

I like pins first.I try to lay thing out so my Dt chisel fits the widest part or the pin.
I also like having room for my thin paring chisels if I need to work on the tails.
No silly blue tape needed.
I can't believe your still pushing blue tape Derek thats so yesterday.:)

[Patrick Walsh]

I wish i could get payed to hand cut 30 some odd drawers worth of dovetails. Sadly i will use a dovetail jig and a router.

I figured thicker pins would be best for a cabinet like i am building. Really im just building the cabinet because i cant sit still and as said i need a challenge to keep me my head into carpentry. Its also nice to build something for myself as i never really get to.

Day in and day out i execute so many carpentry based tasks in all i can describe as sadly sub par manner. I work on high end custom homes and am for the most part a finish carpenter. Being a employee though it is what is expected of me if i want to keep my job. Its a fine line between doing a bad job and too good a job.

Now if i could just find some time to get back to this case. If anyone wants to walk me through sliding dovetails with hand tools for the dividers i wouldn't be offended. Im considering routing them as im kinda broke to be going and buying a special plane to do them this way. Tempt me and just maybe i find a way to dig into the piggy bank.

As much as i enjoy woodworking machinery nothing offeres the therapeutic value of a marking gauge a saw and a chisel.




Ask him if he wants thin pinned dovetails for his kitchen cabinet drawers. :D That will give you plenty of practice...

When you cut them for drawers, the drawer sides are significantly thinner than that case material, that makes it much easier to transfer the mark. I would cut thicker pins for a case, especially if they're through dovetails. If you need a challenge then miter the outside corners ;)

[Brian Holcombe]

I have some sliding dovetail walk throughs on my blog, the most recent of which was part if the tsuridana series, it's easily transferred to case dividers.

There must be a temple carpenter or timber framer in your area.

[David Eisenhauer]

Also, in addition to Brian's stuff, the guy from Texas Heritage woodworks has a You Tube out on sliding dovetails by hand.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Patrick, I've found the transferring from tails to pins to be the most troublesome part of dovetailing. I tried Derek's blue tape method recently and it does help. As for marking knives, veritas makes some cheap plastic-handled ones that have very thin blades, and will work for skinny pins.

[Robert Engel]

@Patrick, like all things DT's its a matter of pref and practice, but IMO pins first will provide more accurate marking and less frustration. Works on 1/2 blinds, too.

I am not a fan of routers and jigs. Cutting the tails on the TS with a flat top blade ground to 7 degrees and tilted 7 degrees (or whatever < you want) works great and is extremely fast if you do several drawers at once, plus they are all symmetric. Downside: can't get those pinpoint pins tho using a thin kerf blade will get close. I do pins by hand. Its really about as fast as a router and jig and I can space the pins however I want.

@Robert, a shallow rabbet on the tail board to register against is quite handy in marking the pins.

[lowell holmes]

I have to ask.

Do the thin pin dove tails ever fail?

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks for the tips. I will have to give the TS meathod a try. Really i shoudl just purchase the drawer boxes for the kitchen build.

This thin pin thing if for a personal project, just a simple dovetailed carcass. The drawers are a seprate thing. My fault for muddying the waters.


@Patrick, like all things DT's its a matter of pref and practice, but IMO pins first will provide more accurate marking and less frustration. Works on 1/2 blinds, too.

I am not a fan of routers and jigs. Cutting the tails on the TS with a flat top blade ground to 7 degrees and tilted 7 degrees (or whatever < you want) works great and is extremely fast if you do several drawers at once, plus they are all symmetric. Downside: can't get those pinpoint pins tho using a thin kerf blade will get close. I do pins by hand. Its really about as fast as a router and jig and I can space the pins however I want.

@Robert, a shallow rabbet on the tail board to register against is quite handy in marking the pins.

[Brian Holcombe]

I know some famous studio out here near me also uses the tablesaw approach. It works nicely for heavy cases as well, and it's a little sexier than a router jig.

[Mike Henderson]

I use the blue tape technique, also. For transferring the tails to the pins, I have some thin metal strips that I sharpened on one side of the end (meaning single bevel) and I come straight down on the side of the tail to mark the location. The metal is a bit thinner than some of the cheap thin pocket rules, which would also probably work if you sharpened one to a single bevel.

Mike

[lowell holmes]

No one answered. Do the thin pin dovetails fail?

It seems to me they would.

[Mel Fulks]

Don't know that any tests have been done on strongest with a five year old jumping on them but all are strong enough. The sizes have been mainly accepted styles . Real early stuff has large ,later stuff has small, then they went to medium. If you are making something that is in a period style the dovetails usually follow that tradition. We modern designers are free to choose.

[Mike Henderson]

No one answered. Do the thin pin dovetails fail?

It seems to me they would.
Dovetails are pretty strong. I've made furniture with fairly thin pins and never had a problem, and I've seen work by very good furniture makers with very thin pins on drawers. I doubt if they would do it if the joint would fail. Extremely thin pins are mostly a "show off" thing.

Mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

No one answered. Do the thin pin dovetails fail?

It seems to me they would.

I suppose that the first question to ask is..... how much weaker is a thin pin than a thick pin. If these are too small, of course they will fail, but, how much stress will be applied in a direction that is likely to fail? Also, if the dovetail is used in a box, then the other three corners will help lend strength. Sounds like an excuse to create a dovetail a day with ever decreasing pins and then perform a few tests.

[lowell holmes]

Apparently they do not fail, at least no one has experienced it if they do.

I suppose I will have to try them and see how it works. Thx. :)

[Mike Brady]

Thin pins are the hardest to cut because they leave little room for error in your paring of them. That said, whatever you decide:
1. Don't use your project wood to practice a new technique.
2. Cut some dovetails on scrap just before you try the finished ones. If it just isn't happening that day, don't do them that day.

[Patrick Walsh]

Well my plan this weekedend was to get the carcass finished that i started last week.

My motivating factor for this build was mostly to make some beaded face frames. I hav a rather large paint grade kitchen cab build i need to start this week. Having never made beaded face frames before i figured why not gain some practice and build myself something nice. Well try and build something nice.

The kitchen build will just be painted baltic birch, no dovetails except maybe the top drawers of the lowers cabinets.

The thin pins did jot come out perfect but also not bad i guess. I am sure on i plane everything together they will look pretty sharp. I ended up using Dereks blue tape trick and it really helped. I need to order a thin knife from Chris Vesper as my Blue spruce one will just not fit in the thinnest portion or top of the tail.

The beaded face frame i did on a shaper and router table with a Kreg notching bit. This was also a learning experience. The first thing i learnt is that i really gotta stop working with this garbage cheap imitation mahogany as it is very brittle and prone to tear out. The stuff really is crap compared to the real stuff.

The door style and rails will be more African Mahogany, the pannels will be solid 1/4 or 1/2 birdseye maple. The drawer fronts will be birdseye and the same with the back pannel. I plan to use this to store some of my hand tools.

I have about 12-14hrs into this right now. It really makes me wonder how long something like this would take a proficient furniture maker.

Also threw in a pic of the French cleat stuff i started making a couple weeks ago for my shaper tooling and accessories. I got one coat of epoxy on the some of the pieces. This was also my first time using epoxy for anything other than laying up firberglass. not sure how i feel about it yet. I plan to finish the pieces off with spar varnish or Waterlox.

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[Patrick Walsh]

Busy weekend..351182351183351184351188351189

[Simon MacGowen]

I like pins first.I try to lay thing out so my Dt chisel fits the widest part or the pin.
I also like having room for my thin paring chisels if I need to work on the tails.
No silly blue tape needed.
I can't believe your still pushing blue tape Derek thats so yesterday.:)

Blue tape is ok for those starting out or struggling, as in this case of London-style pins. It is an aid I would highly recommend for learners and those whose eye sights are failing them.

The best, inexpensive knife for this type of transfer is what Paul Sellers has recommended: the Swann Morton knife. Search his blog for his review.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Nicely done Patrick!

[Patrick Walsh]

Thank you, ill go take a look right now..

If the knife could register within the pins this would not be a problem. Mt problem is being anble to register the "tip" of my marking knife into the very top and very bottom of the tails. In the end i just played a game of connect the dotswith a straight edge before sawing away.


Blue tape is ok for those starting out or struggling, as in this case of London-style pins. It is an aid I would highly recommend for learners and those whose eye sights are failing them.

The best, inexpensive knife for this type of transfer is what Paul Sellers has recommended: the Swann Morton knife. Search his blog for his review.

Simon

[Patrick Walsh]

Why thank you Brian. I'm not sure i deserve the exclamation point but it sure does feel good after a few trying moments.

I love a opportunity like this to press through a challenge. Really what i like about something like "thin pins" or brittle crap lumber it as it forces my brain to slow down and focus only my task at hand for hours on end. It is so theraputic....

Now i gotta figure out how i want to attach that face frame? Being the cab is stain grade the "hack finish carpenter" in me cant just resort to pocket screws. I am considering a floating tennon, glue and a bunch of clamps but at the same time not really feeling that approach either. It feels like a very Ikea solution to me and half like cheating.

I am considering a rebate along the entire outside edge of the face frame that will register perfectly with the carcass. Im a littel concerned about blowout though as this lumber is just junk. What to do what to do?

Wish i had that Philly Planes dovetail plane you suggested to cut the dado for the shelf and drawer divider. Instead ill have to resort to a router bit. Or their small rebate plane or that moving philister or however you spell it. Crap what i would give to be wealthy. I could easily drop $5K in one fell swoop on just hand planes from him alone.

QUOTE=Brian Holcombe;2643972]Nicely done Patrick![/QUOTE]

[Patrick Walsh]

My day started with a little party.

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Now that i was well primed i was ready to get into something..

With the legs for my bench build hogging most of my clamps i needed to find a way to kill some time while my laminations sat in the clamps a bit longer. I know overnight was enough time but id rather be safe than sorry.

I had a pile of birdseye i had been milling up to near final dimension over the last couple weeks. The BEM will be laminatd to make the back pannel for the above cabinet.

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First some layout.

The pictures of my laminations to follow may look like i did a terrible job grain and color matching. I used specific boards for specific parts of the case that will and will not be seen when finished. The case with have two drawers across the bottom with two doors above. When you open the doors there will be 2 rows of drawers 3" high directly atop the two drawers on thenoutside. I think both rows of the lower interior drawers will be comprised by five drawers total. There will then be a number of shelfs for hand planes followed by one more row of 3" drawers up high on the interior of case followed by another shelf. I chose to hide certain boards behind these drawers. I tried to use B and C grade lumber for the back panel.

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Gotta eat dinner ill finish later..

[Patrick Walsh]

After fussing around grain and color matching again it was time to edge and face joint then plane to almost final dimension.

My laminations at this stage are two boards. I will again be able to one more time send this all over and through the machine as these laminations are still under 16". I will then be left with two laminations that i will then glue and and finish with hand planes. Hopefully just a smoother if all goes well?

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This all took me long enough i was able to start pulling my Roubo legs out of their clamps. I got really really fussy with my edge joints as the eyes of the BEM want to tear out here and there when edge jointing. I kept going back until i had perfect edges to join.
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My shop is overun by laminations..

[Patrick Walsh]

With all my clamps being used again i turned back to my Roubo legs. Ill update that progress over in the bench build thread.

While im here i will bring the rest of this project up to speed. I had built a couple doors for the case a couple or few weeks ago now. I have lost track, at the time i was way to busy to document it here.

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Like the rest of the case the styles and rails are 1" thick African Mahogany. The pannles are i believe big leaf maple. I purchased about 600bf of BEM a number of months ago for a very fair price. It was kinda just a take it and hope for the best kinda thing.

Anyway i started picking through my piles of lumber for boards that looked to have decent figure in them and that would also allow for no laminations and a solid single pannel. I cut my stock to length as to make the best use of the lumber jointing. Muchof the BEM stock i purchased is are 12-13'. Is has some wane, twist, cup so forth and so on. Cutting the stock to length helps negate some of this.

Anyway it turned out the board i picked was not BEM but it was nice lumber non the less.. After more time spent himming and howing over picking just the right boards i decided to go with it" my plan for the case was all BEM and African Mahogany. As you can see i have BEM throught my shop. BEM is clearly my favorite wood species followed by teak. Then probably rosewoods, bubinga and mahogany. I almost through this lumber back innthenpile and hunted out some door panel quality BEM.

Around the same time i made the doors i also disasembled my carcass as to put the sliding dovetails in the sides to accept the shelfs. The bottom drawer will also recieve a dovetailed divider. The vertical sections of my shelfs will also have sliding dovetails. They can however be done after my back panel is in and my beaded face frame applied. Inhad bever attempted a sliding dovetail prior, i learnt alot this day. Being the time i had put into the "thin pins" of my carcass there was no room for errror. It was a hyper focused day in the shop, "my favorite kind" and exactly why i do this.

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Thats about it for this project for now. Depending tomorrow i may glue up the panel laminations into two pieces. I could then do The final glue up sunday and think about getting the case pulled apart to put the dado in it to accpt the back panel. With that done i could finaly put the face frame on. With ten drawers total to make along with all the internal dividers this project still has a long way to go. Crap the hardeware is four months out from the time implace the prder" being kinda broke right now and each hinge being $200 i habe yet to order it.

[William Fretwell]

Not only are small pins hard to make but the joint strength will be poor. Those little pins can break so easily. Why have super strong tails and very weak pins?

[Derek Cohen]

My view is subjective. I do not know of any objective testing.

Thin pins are a design feature, and as such should be used where form and function meet appropriately.

I would not use thin pins on cabinet carcases. It is unnecessary there as they are not usually seen, and not recommended as there is likely to be structural stress (the carcase twisting).

Drawers - in particular those in "fine furnishings" - are a different case. The thin pins look elegant in my eyes ... in the right circumstances. I would not use them for heavy-use chests. Thin pins on drawers in higher end pieces are likely more than strong enough for the task - in any event, I cannot imagine anyone using drawers like these in a rough manner. I have not had one fail - but I have only been making such fine pins for about 10 years.

As with all things wooden, wood moves. In the case of drawers, racking is the enemy to avoid. Poorly made drawers will stress the construction. Well-made drawers are less likely to be stressed this way, and needs to be a given if one is considering fine pins in the design of a drawer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Walsh]

Only to see if i could do it.

Pretty much the only reason i build stuff in my spare time.

This piece started as a test peiece to work out making beaded face frames for a kitchen im building for work.

Like anything i build in my free time i normally have to make construction techniques a challenge coupled with the use of materials that i really like to keep me interested.

Im pretty sure the chest will hold up just fine screwed to the wall the rest of its life. If the crap plywood cabs i and every other cabinet maker make for residential kitchen baths so forth and so on im sure this will be just fine.

I dont see myself making pins this thin again but it was good for me as imlearnt or thing or two. Plus i really enjoyed it as i really like stuff that forces me to be VERY VERY VERY careful..

Plus think of all the sliding dovetails holding this chest toether. It will be like a tick tack toe board inside. I could be wrong but provided i get the thing glued up without a catastrophe i think long tern the carcass will hold up just fine..

Maybe im wrong. If so the good news is i get to build another tool chest. Betbthe second one would be way better than the first one..




Not only are small pins hard to make but the joint strength will be poor. Those little pins can break so easily. Why have super strong tails and very weak pins?

[Bill McCarthy]

I'm just beginning down this path of wood working. You guys are so much more knowledgeable and skillful than I, I don't think I have enough years left to be able to catch up.

Throughout this thread, I saw a couple mentions regarding the thin pins being a challenge to skill and for aesthetics. Is there any other reason for using them?

Along that same line of thinking, why would you use different sizes to begin with? In my mind, I would be looking to make each equal (by the way, I've never made a dovetail joint). What determines the size of pins and tails to use when laying out this joint?

[Brian Holcombe]

Coming along nicely Patrick! I am enjoying the door panels!

Bill,

In addition to the aesthetic reasons mentioned, thin pins ensure that the dovetails were cut by hand, and so it is a nod to the increased skill level required. On another forum one member maintains that they were used so commonly in traditional drawer making because the hard pins would compress the pine drawer sides with ease, minimizing reliance on a perfect cutout.

[Mark Salomon]

There are many different methods for dovetailing. All require that you be able to see your work clearly, mark precisely where you want to cut, and be able to cut accurately. Derek uses blue tape to good effect because it only require one mark and it is easier to see when cutting to the line of the pin. I make sure that I have good lighting, wear an optivisor magnifier, and use a slightly dull marking knife. The dull knife leaves a wider mark which I then highlight with a 7mm lead. At least with my marking knife the lead leaves a darker mark on each edge of the marked line with the center slightly lighter making it easier to cut on the waste line. The most important thing is practice, practice and more practice. I finished a kitchen remodel a few months ago that had 19 dovetailed drawers, today I glued up 11 drawers for another project. I can finally say that I am comfortable making dovetails that don't need much fitting. Thin dovetails are elegant and look great in certain instances. By all means aspire to be able to make these but maybe you should start with easier goals first.

[Patrick Walsh]

Bill you have plenty of time!

This is only my third project cutting dovetails by hand.

I started with a simple box. That came out ok. I cut two of the four sides a couple times before i was happy enought to move on and chaulk the project up to learning. I have still yet to glue the box up but it does sit on my bench and i do use it.

My second dovetail project was the four drawers you might see in some of my pictures made of BEM. Those taught me how to layout and cut real quick and fairly proficiently. At least for me the pressure of working with a material i have a limited amount of and the high stakes it creates for not screwing up helps me keep my focus. Also the repedative nature of four boxes one right after or along side the other meant the skill got buried in my head and hands.

Once you understand the process of laying them out its just a matter of practice and paying attention. I say paying attention not because you might screw up but because you will screw up and when you do you need to be paying attention enough so that you understand what you did wrong and how to correct and avoid it from continuing to happen.

Imop dovetails are not that hard once you understand what really is a very simple formula. Let me re phrase mediocre dovetails are not that hard, perfect ones are not impossible but take some dedication and a desire and willingness to pay attention 100% to whhat you are doing and at the least the desire for perfection. If you can do that you can cut great dovetails in my oppinion.

Dont let time or the a idea that "you dont have enough time to catch up" stop you from trying. I often find a way to use the same type feelings or intuition to drive me to succesfully attaing woodworking skills i would like you otherwise reserve for someone with much more tallent.

A framer is blown away by my skills. I am blown away by a skill of a teue furniture maker. Somforth and so on. I try to not ever think for a minute anything is beyond me. So far it generally works other than becoming independently wealthy and or successful in business. That is reserved for someone else so it seems ;)

We all have our path right, the key is enjoying what you got.




I'm just beginning down this path of wood working. You guys are so much more knowledgeable and skillful than I, I don't think I have enough years left to be able to catch up.

Throughout this thread, I saw a couple mentions regarding the thin pins being a challenge to skill and for aesthetics. Is there any other reason for using them?

Along that same line of thinking, why would you use different sizes to begin with? In my mind, I would be looking to make each equal (by the way, I've never made a dovetail joint). What determines the size of pins and tails to use when laying out this joint?

[William Fretwell]

For me, proportion in design is everything. Thin pins on a small jewellery box may look elegant.
This large carcass may well survive construction but until it receives a back the wracking forces are substantial.

[Patrick Walsh]

Ill be perfectly honest. The carcass is rock solid ever since i put the lowe divider in for the first row of drawers. Remember the dividers are all sliding dovetails.

Even prior to the sliding dovetailed divider when the carcass was just hed together by my tiny tiny pins the carcass did not rack at all. The tails and pins are cut so tight i have to us a mallet and block to pound the whole thing together.

Non the less i get this is not the traditional approach to dovetailing a carcass for very practicle reasons. I have never been much a very practicle person. I Guess maybe that is something to i could strive for.


For me, proportion in design is everything. Thin pins on a small jewellery box may look elegant.
This large carcass may well survive construction but until it receives a back the wracking forces are substantial.

[William Fretwell]

Yes it's very satisfying when things fit like that. The photo of the varnished pieces is intriguing, no idea what those squares are for?

[Andy Nichols]

Also take a look at the Cosman method, which is just a slight variation from the detailed method in the book "Encyclopedia of Furniture Making"

If one follows the process closely there is no reason to test fit, in fact in most cases the joint won't come apart anyway....

Andy-- mos maiorum

[Bill McCarthy]

Bill you have plenty of time!

This is only my third project cutting dovetails by hand.

I started with a simple box. That came out ok. I cut two of the four sides a couple times before i was happy enought to move on and chaulk the project up to learning. I have still yet to glue the box up but it does sit on my bench and i do use it.

My second dovetail project was the four drawers you might see in some of my pictures made of BEM. Those taught me how to layout and cut real quick and fairly proficiently. At least for me the pressure of working with a material i have a limited amount of and the high stakes it creates for not screwing up helps me keep my focus. Also the repedative nature of four boxes one right after or along side the other meant the skill got buried in my head and hands.

Once you understand the process of laying them out its just a matter of practice and paying attention. I say paying attention not because you might screw up but because you will screw up and when you do you need to be paying attention enough so that you understand what you did wrong and how to correct and avoid it from continuing to happen.

Imop dovetails are not that hard once you understand what really is a very simple formula. Let me re phrase mediocre dovetails are not that hard, perfect ones are not impossible but take some dedication and a desire and willingness to pay attention 100% to whhat you are doing and at the least the desire for perfection. If you can do that you can cut great dovetails in my oppinion.

Dont let time or the a idea that "you dont have enough time to catch up" stop you from trying. I often find a way to use the same type feelings or intuition to drive me to succesfully attaing woodworking skills i would like you otherwise reserve for someone with much more tallent.

A framer is blown away by my skills. I am blown away by a skill of a teue furniture maker. Somforth and so on. I try to not ever think for a minute anything is beyond me. So far it generally works other than becoming independently wealthy and or successful in business. That is reserved for someone else so it seems ;)

We all have our path right, the key is enjoying what you got.

I hear what you're saying about being wealthy; I'm pretty sure God doesn't want me to be a millionaire.

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not afraid to try. My birthday was last week; I turned 58. I've begun working on building a drafting table for a friends 13 year old son. This is my first furniture project since I was in wood shop back in 8th grade. I just don't think I have enough time left to acquire 40 years of experience doing this stuff. (On the drafting table, I decided to use box joints because to me, they seemed to be more straight forward and easier to make.)

[Patrick Walsh]

Patients grasshoper!

One thing at a time..


For me, proportion in design is everything. Thin pins on a small jewellery box may look elegant.
This large carcass may well survive construction but until it receives a back the wracking forces are substantial.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yes it is. Even more so when everything is perfectly square to more than a 64th. I amazed myself on this one.

I should not speak so soon though as i still have the interior grid of sliding dovetail shelfs to make. That should also be interesting with regard to alignment.

Im going to do all that work after the back is in and carcass is glued. I think i will even put the beaded face frame on.

Still working out how to attach the face frame to the carcass. Im thinking splines or flaoting mortise. I really did not think this detail through. Oh well what are you gonna do. I really did not think much of this project through. I kinda figured i would botch the thin pins and the whole project would get kiboshed in light of actaul work, my bench or a chest made of something other than African mahogany. I really dont care for African Mahogany. Kinda silly i put so much work into this but the kinda thing i am known for. It will give me a perfect excuse to revisit this project and get it 100% right at a later date.

Just goes to show i really thought i had no chance at cutting those thin pins ;)




Yes it's very satisfying when things fit like that. The photo of the varnished pieces is intriguing, no idea what those squares are for?

[Patrick Walsh]

Andy ill have to look into the book. I will say once i got these together i did think now way are they coming aprt in one piece.

I just gotta make it happen one more time, fingers crossed.


Also take a look at the Cosman method, which is just a slight variation from the detailed method in the book "Encyclopedia of Furniture Making"

If one follows the process closely there is no reason to test fit, in fact in most cases the joint won't come apart anyway....

Andy-- mos maiorum

[Patrick Walsh]

Much like my bench build very little progress made today.

I got the back panel laminations nailed down to two laminations. One more glue up and im ready to pull the carcass apart put a dado in the carcass and the last sliding dovetail divider between the base and first shelf to divide what is now one drawer into two.

Being the glue will still be drying tomorrow i will probably have to get a late start to my work week and get this done so the panel does not cup or twist. Plus i need all my flat surfces to actually produce income generating work m-f.

Oh and that dark board on the bottom will be hidden behind two drawers. The BEM lacking figure will also be mostly hidden behind drawers towards the upper third portion of the carcass. I think i mentioned prior that i wantedmthe back pannel to be birdseye but i did not want to use my best stock being it is the back panel of a case that has doors. I figure i will viwe it mostly with the doors open so i should not completly dismiss the interior. The grid,portion that creates the shelfs for my hand planes and sub Carcass for the interior drawers will also be my favorite wood specied African Mahogany.

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[Andy Nichols]

One thing to consider, Rob did make an important improvement in his approach over that outlined in the book I referenced.

It' worth ones time to watch the Cosman method, it does produce outstanding results.

However the book is a great resource in and of itself, get the revised edition....


Andy-- mos maiorum

[Patrick Walsh]

When i was first teaching myself how to cut dovetails i think i must have sorted through ten or more youtube videos. I think Cosman was one of three i setteled on that made sense to me. Whom i settled on i cant remember. Funny how something so simple seemed so complicated. I remeber watching those videos and then trying to set my fisrt pins man was my head spinning. Now having done it less times than i can count on my fingers and toes it seems prettty funny.

Still i think i will try and find a cosman video to rock myself to sleep with tonight.

I am actaully looking forward to revisiting cutting dovetails for the ten drawers this case will have. When i did the drawers for my mitersaw station "that still needs four moore built" i can remember spending a number of full eight hour days head down cutting and paring dovetials. It was such a nice way to spend a winter day.




One thing to consider, Rob did make an important improvement in his approach over that outlined in the book I referenced.

It' worth ones time to watch the Cosman method, it does produce outstanding results.

However the book is a great resource in and of itself, get the revised edition....


Andy-- mos maiorum

[Patrick Chase]

Crap i need another tool to master yet another task. The "Cohen Vespar thin knife" what is one to do.

Before you run out and spend Chris Vesper $$$ you might want to try the LV workshop knife (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=69870&cat=1,42936,42949&ap=1). It's super-thin, single bevelled, and works down into tight spots very nicely. The blade is A2 and can be sharpened pretty nicely freehand, so they last quite a while for what they cost.

The Hock marking knives (http://www.hocktools.com/products/knives.html) and the single-bevel versions of his violin knives are sold un-handled in 1/16" thickness, so if your pin is at least that wide those will reach easily no matter how thick/deep the joint. The violin knives are more compact and nimble but you'd need 2 of them (LH+RH). I use a pair of 1/16 x 1/4 Hock violin knives for transferring markings to all but the very narrowest pins (for which I use the LV).

As Derek mentioned people have also had good luck with the classic and dirt-cheap Stanley 10-049 pocket knife (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00002X201/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1). I have (more than) a few but don't use them for scribing into tight corners because they're double-bevelled and don't register as well against tall faces as the other options referenced above.

[Patrick Walsh]

Patrick,

You would not have to twist my arm to hard to spend Chris Vesper $$$. On the other hand $$$$ is a bit tight for the next couple months so i may just pick up one of the LV knives to do my drawers for this project.

[Patrick Walsh]

I made some progress today on the chest.

Having gotten the back panel all glued up the past few days i did not want to let it sit around and twist, cup or bow. I have a rather large work project in the pipe lines that i have to start this week or rather resume this week.

With that considered i wanted to get this panel and my carcass glued up for two reasons, the above stated and also because i just dont have enough room in my shop to have a large panel like this hogging up my flat workbench space.

With the panel glued up i still needed to put a dado in the backside of all my carcass pieces to accept it. I was very nervouse about taking it apart but it had to be done.

I have known now for a number of days that i made a huge rookie mistake when putting the female portion of my sliding dovetails in my carcass. I did not stop them short of the back of the case where the dado for the back panel will be. In retrospect i should had run my dados first then just stopped my dovetails in them.

Its is what it is now. The case needs the strength of the back panel being dadoed in as apposed to rabbeted and screwed. It also needs to be floating being it is a giant edeg glue up. Plus a rabbet and screws are just to production kitchen cabinet style for me. Actually i dont even build kitchen cabs that way i dado them.

I dont know what i was thinking, clearly i wasn't is the point. I can live with this mistake for a tool chest. Anything else i would had thrown the whole thing it in the scrap pile. Actually im kinda suprised i didnt as im a relentless perfectionist. If it was for a customer the same even of it was a plywood kitchen. Ok maybe i woulda bondoed the screw up if it was a paint grade project.

[Brian Holcombe]

Stopped anything is such a hassle that I often rabbet out the back of a case and plan mitered edges for that reason. It's more work up front, but less at each progressive step.

Also, I try to avoid putting the panel into a groove and making it permanent for a case, it's easier to refinish a case if you can take the back out. With all of those shelves nicely dovetailed in, I would actually think you could use a lighter weight back and make it removable. If you are going to put a french cleat on it, you can find a way to make that integral to the case and strengthen it up, if need be.

I made a series of bookcases with integral backs set into grooves, I used the backs to support the french cleat, and it works well (they're holding up 200-300lbs each and can hold my weight ontop of that without budging). But when completed I decided that I needed much less stressful glue-ups.

All in all I think it's very nice work!

[Patrick Walsh]

I also had to add the the sliding dovetail for the divider between the bottom of the carcass and the top of the first drawers or bottom of second set of drawers. However you want to look at it. You decide i know i am confusing.

I have decided that i really hate using a router and router table for this kind of work. Personal work that is. I'm going to start saving my pennies for all the hand tools needed to create rebates, dadoes and sliding dovetails 100% with hand tools.

With the carcass work finally done it was time to get rid of all the glue lines on the back of my panel. I also like to run my smoother over my work before i assemble it as apposed to sand. Normaly i would have run the smoother over the carcass pieces also but i was really scared to rip off a pin. To be honest the finish my power Jointer and planer leave is finish ready. I have a really high quality spiral cutter and my ameture hand tool skills probably do nothing more thst muck it up.

I have never used a card scraper but i might give it a go on the interior of the case before i start putting in the tic tack toe board of shelves that will hold my hand plane collection. I will clealry hand plane the outside of the case to finish and NOT sand it!

352897352898

Moving on believe it or not it was time for lunch. I took a short break had a smoothie a bagel checked in the on the Creek checked my email and got back to work. Im not much for breaks when i am working. I had planed to clean the house today also but that clearly was not going to happen at this point. Anyway it was time to size the panel now that i had finished planing it. I used a track saw to get two straight edges then sqaured it off at the table saw.

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With the panel cut to size it was finally time to put this thing together. I cant tell you how nuts its been driving me to have this carcass and the boards for the back sitting around my shop. I am moving them constantly as i use my shop for income generating work also and as you can see its not very big.

I was very stressed about the glue up. To be honest i was nervous to just take the dry fit pieces apart this morning as not to tear off a pin. With that now behind me and the dado work all done i was feeling good but knew anything could still go wrong.

I got all my ducks in order and went at it. Two blood blisters later a couple choice words and a self reminder to not bother with how much smacking my hand just hurt because the freaking glue was drying so fast and this could all go south real quick if i did not keep my cool and stick to the script.

In the end the case went toghether as easy as could be. One ity bity tip of a pin broke free, again i would normally be pissed and want to throw the whole project in the scrap bin. Being the nature of these tiny pins i cut myself some slack and told myself i would get it 100% right the next time. Afterall this project was really nothing more than a exercise in haunches for the beaded face frame kitchen i am building for work. I added the thin pins to the mix because i really intended this to be nothing but a learning experience and test project so why not really push the envelope. I can easily repair the one pin in the finishing process. I will be the only one to ever knows in the end. I wish i could say the same about the sliding dovetail screw up but it is what it is.

352903

So with the back panel in and the case all glued up it was time to take a deep breath give myself a pat on the back for pulling this "thin pins" carcass off. The only thing left to do was take some measuments and check it for square. Clearly i did this in the dry fit phase but you never know. To my delight the case is exact with regard to height left to right, as far as width it is one 32nd of top to bottom. Not to bad imop for my first dovetailed case.

I should also add the thing is a tank and solid as a rock. No way this thing is going to rack. I gave it a serious test before i pulled the dry fit apart this morning and even that was impressive.

I was expecting a package today and rather excitedly i might add. It came mid day and i fought the temptation to allow myself to be distracted by opening it. Now with the case done and the shop clean as a babies bottom i quickly dug into the box. Its a bunch of shaper cutters for the kitchen project. As much as i curse the router table and the handheld router i actually really enjoy using my shaper. It makes no sense right. I know its like im a little kid and only want to play with the big boy toys. Well that just might be that case and it might also be that i dont mind machine woodworking when i can produce hand tool like results. In my experience thus far this is exactly what a shaper does. I actaully am equally enjoying learning what my shaper can and cant do and how to do it as i am my hand tools. Anyway a good day in the shop.

Hope someome enjoys as much i often enjoy reading other build threads.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Even if you end up ultimately just tuning the fit with hand planes, it's so much easier than trying to fit sliding dovetails with a router table. When I cut large sliding dovetails I waste them out with the router table, then tune them with hand planes and it's a quick process.

[Patrick Walsh]

Brian,

I almost asked you for some direction prior to putting in the back panel. I did not want to bother you and sometimes i think it is best to problem solve on ones own and learn from mistakes. Its so easy to goggle this or google that or ask someone in know. I think their is something to be said for good old engading of the noodle/problem solving and the lessons to be learnt fromtrial and error.

I thought of many different ways of dealing with the back panel. Next to this one i was going to build it much like a drawer open along the bottom back edge so it could be removed but still rabbeted. In this case it would had been like a giant French cleat. I also thought about a couple stretchers with a French cleat then sliding the panel in but from the top.

In the end i went this route. With the intention of using massive cabinet screws in enlarged holes behind the upper and lower drawers. I guess instances like this are reason to resort back to a proper working drawing prior to comencing a build. As i have mentioned prior i do so much of that for work i realy just like letting something guide me as i build. On the other hand after hours upon hours of work i sometimes do find myself disapointed i did not plan better. Crap if i was at work and someone planned so poorly on someone elses buck i would be the first one to be horrified.

I had concerns about the weight and racking. Like you i did think that the interior shelfs being all dovetailed together would gice the case plenty of strenght. I guess for whatever reason i did not trust my own intuition and went overboard with the back panel.

a
Stopped anything is such a hassle that I often rabbet out the back of a case and plan mitered edges for that reason. It's more work up front, but less at each progressive step.

Also, I try to avoid putting the panel into a groove and making it permanent for a case, it's easier to refinish a case if you can take the back out. With all of those shelves nicely dovetailed in, I would actually think you could use a lighter weight back and make it removable. If you are going to put a french cleat on it, you can find a way to make that integral to the case and strengthen it up, if need be.

I made a series of bookcases with integral backs set into grooves, I used the backs to support the french cleat, and it works well (they're holding up 200-300lbs each and can hold my weight ontop of that without budging). But when completed I decided that I needed much less stressful glue-ups.

All in all I think it's very nice work!

[Patrick Walsh]

I did the feamle portion of these on a MFT table. Then the male portion on the router table.

I did find exactly as you suggested with regard to wasting them out then fine tunning.

I decided to make my female portion wider than my bit. Dont ask why i just did. This meant indexing layout lines off of my MFT rail. Straight forward enough. For whatever reason though the dovetail bit did not make a sharp enough inside corner for my liking or rather left a small portion on the inner most edge and against the bottom right amd left of each slot front to back in need of a light touch up.

We had talked dovetail planes prior and this left me wishing so bad for some kind of plane with a skewed blade and edge guide of sorts to clean up the shotty work of the router. Or maybe the shotty work was me i dont know. I eneded up doing it with a very small chisel.

Anyway i think of my choices and per your direction i will order a number of tools from PhillyPlanes when my wallet can breath again. I sure do the like the look of the HNT Gordon stuff but really what i want is to like the look of my work when its done.


Even if you end up ultimately just tuning the fit with hand planes, it's so much easier than trying to fit sliding dovetails with a router table. When I cut large sliding dovetails I waste them out with the router table, then tune them with hand planes and it's a quick process.

[Brian Holcombe]

I feel pretty much the same way, of course I'm doing this professionally now and so the designs must be my own doing, but I did so before as well. The increased level of thought process in working out the details for yourself WRT your own tools and preferred technique is well worth it. I feel that is one of the reasons that I barely refer to my own drawings in the process of building. I've worked out the details carefully in my head, then drawn them, the mechanics of such being the important thing to memorize.

Its worth the additional effort to use a program and design, but I usually only go so far is to make myself a basic reference, going over ever detail is often more of a time sink than anything and often the processes used will dictate specifics that aren't easily drawn out on the computer.

The plane from Philly planes is only for the male portion of the joint. The HNT gordon one would be for the female side of the joint, I'm forgetting what I recommended you to use for the female side (forgive me) but I believe any side rabbet with a modified fence will work, I know Derek is keen on the stanley planes. The HNT plane works great for the side rabbet but Derek maintains that his Stanley planes are better still for that purpose.

It's good to have both planes, even when cutting out by machine, unless you're capable of cutting perfect housings, which frankly.....isn't happening with the Festool setup, there is too much slop in the adjustable guide's seat on the rail and I don't believe it can be adjusted out. The router table is better for this, even more so if you can manage infeed and outfeed tables and a power feeder. I don't have room for all that.

Don't get me wrong, the festool setup is good enough to rough the housings, but you'll find they need to be tuned afterward.

For small dovetails I find it much easier to just use a dado plane then follow up with the dovetail plane.

No one likes to admit this part, but if any cupping forms in the panel between surfacing and routing, then the machines are more trouble than they're worth. The process of using a batten for a dado plane flattens the panel in the same way that a power feeder would flatten the panel. It's cup that causes the cutout not to go well with machines more than anything else.

[Derek Cohen]

To be clear, Brian, I like the modified Stanley #79 as an all rounder - it can do both joints.

However for the male section, the dovetail plane I built 10 years ago still rocks ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/EvolvingADovetailPlane2_html_m56ddd883.jpg


For the female socket it is also easier to use a female dovetail plane I built, and widen if necessary with the HNT Gordon dado plane ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/PlaningTheSlidingDovetail_html_m1e10a6ef.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/PlaningTheSlidingDovetail_html_m78070689.jpg

Still, the modified Stanley #79 is a sweet user, and can do it all ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/SlidingDovetailsWithTheStanley79_html_a837b5a.jpg


Not to forget more simple and basic methods, such as sawing ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsByHand1_html_m617e64da.jpg

... chiseling ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsByHand1_html_m2471ba9f.jpg

… and finishing with a router plane …

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsByHand1_html_4bb28873.jpg


Lots of options here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

The HNT gordon is the same in that technically it can do both sides of the joint, however I find that a dedicated plane specifically made for cutting the male side of the dovetail does a much better job of it, cutting a crisp shoulder due to the nicker.

I'm defaulting to your preference on the side rabbet planes, I use the HNT Gordon, but I have not used the stanley. You have you used both and maintain that the stanley plane is the better of the two. Frankly, I'm not convinced of that, but given that you have used both I'm happy to default to your preference and if I were buying tools for the job now (as opposed to already owning them), I would be interested in tracking down a well kept 79.

I've cut 10 full panel (ranging from 15" to 19" wide), wide shouldered sliding dovetails in the past few weeks, all of which are nice and tight and exist without the need for additional support. So my work will not benefit from a change in planes. For someone starting now, with their options wide open, it's a nice to consider additional options.

[Derek Cohen]

Brian, the #79 is only really better in the sense that it has two blades and can cut in either direction. This is helpful when cutting the female socket as it is not always possible to reverse the plane to go in the other direction (such as with blind sockets). Further, the #79 does have a longer fence, and this is also a better solution. The HNT Gordon plane has a single blade, and so one ideally needs a pair of planes to do the same.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/SlidingDovetailsWithTheStanley79_html_ea96043.jpg

A dedicated dovetail plane trumps them all for the male section ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/EvolvingADovetailPlane2_html_5d1ba357.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Thank you for providing additional info. I can see how that is a nice benefit to have two blades in one plane.

The short fence is a weak point, I've considered making an additional dovetailed receiver and making a full length fence for it. It's pretty low on my list though.

[Patrick Walsh]

Brian,

Thank you for sahring your thoughts.

I have a couple questions as a result. First what program do you use for design and generating working drawings.

Second, what do i need to do to modifications do i need to make to the fence.

Third, how would younuse a router table to put a sliding dovetail or dado in the middle of a 47" carcass side?




I feel pretty much the same way, of course I'm doing this professionally now and so the designs must be my own doing, but I did so before as well. The increased level of thought process in working out the details for yourself WRT your own tools and preferred technique is well worth it. I feel that is one of the reasons that I barely refer to my own drawings in the process of building. I've worked out the details carefully in my head, then drawn them, the mechanics of such being the important thing to memorize.

Its worth the additional effort to use a program and design, but I usually only go so far is to make myself a basic reference, going over ever detail is often more of a time sink than anything and often the processes used will dictate specifics that aren't easily drawn out on the computer.

The plane from Philly planes is only for the male portion of the joint. The HNT gordon one would be for the female side of the joint, I'm forgetting what I recommended you to use for the female side (forgive me) but I believe any side rabbet with a modified fence will work, I know Derek is keen on the stanley planes. The HNT plane works great for the side rabbet but Derek maintains that his Stanley planes are better still for that purpose.

It's good to have both planes, even when cutting out by machine, unless you're capable of cutting perfect housings, which frankly.....isn't happening with the Festool setup, there is too much slop in the adjustable guide's seat on the rail and I don't believe it can be adjusted out. The router table is better for this, even more so if you can manage infeed and outfeed tables and a power feeder. I don't have room for all that.

Don't get me wrong, the festool setup is good enough to rough the housings, but you'll find they need to be tuned afterward.

For small dovetails I find it much easier to just use a dado plane then follow up with the dovetail plane.

No one likes to admit this part, but if any cupping forms in the panel between surfacing and routing, then the machines are more trouble than they're worth. The process of using a batten for a dado plane flattens the panel in the same way that a power feeder would flatten the panel. It's cup that causes the cutout not to go well with machines more than anything else.

[Patrick Walsh]

I Like the idea of a saw, chisel and router plane. I just have no idead how to get such long straight shallow cuts. Sure i could figure it out. Maybe it is as easy as just trying?




To be clear, Brian, I like the modified Stanley #79 as an all rounder - it can do both joints.

However for the male section, the dovetail plane I built 10 years ago still rocks ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/EvolvingADovetailPlane2_html_m56ddd883.jpg


For the female socket it is also easier to use a female dovetail plane I built, and widen if necessary with the HNT Gordon dado plane ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/PlaningTheSlidingDovetail_html_m1e10a6ef.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/PlaningTheSlidingDovetail_html_m78070689.jpg

Still, the modified Stanley #79 is a sweet user, and can do it all ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/SlidingDovetailsWithTheStanley79_html_a837b5a.jpg


Not to forget more simple and basic methods, such as sawing ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsByHand1_html_m617e64da.jpg

... chiseling ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsByHand1_html_m2471ba9f.jpg

… and finishing with a router plane …

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsByHand1_html_4bb28873.jpg


Lots of options here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Walsh]

I took the case out of the clamps first thing this morning before getting to work. No Work on this or the bench today. Instead i got to build a couple plywood carcass and mill up a bunch of hard maple for face frames and doors. Still a bad day at work is better than a good day golfing to me.

As you can see i lost the tip of one point. I also got a couple very small chips in a tale on the top or bottom of the case.

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[Jim Koepke]

I Like the idea of a saw, chisel and router plane. I just have no idead how to get such long straight shallow cuts. Sure i could figure it out. Maybe it is as easy as just trying?

If the cuts are all the way across a piece it isn't as much work as a stopped cut. For a stopped cut, it helps to first use a chisel to cut out the stopped end so the saw has somewhere to go and push the saw dust.

This is my favorite saw for such work:

352987

It is a Bishop #10. The plate has two sets of teeth. The back is adjustable and can be used like a depth stop when making multiple identical cuts.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

I took the case out of the clamps first thing this morning before getting to work. No Work on this or the bench today. Instead i got to build a couple plywood carcass and mill up a bunch of hard maple for face frames and doors. Still a bad day at work is better than a good day golfing to me.

As you can see i lost the tip of one point. I also got a couple very small chips in a tale on the top or bottom of the case.

352984352986

Some of that may plane out...otherwise looks fantastic.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Agreed, that looks great, Patrick. Plane the sides and chamfer the end corners a little, will probably remove that.

Also, I appreciate the discussion of sliding dovetails and dovetail planes in this thread. Inspired, I bid and won an auction for a Stanley 79 tonight. Looking forward to trying this type of joinery :D

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks brian,

From what i can tell most all of it will plane out.

If i go with my standard Waterlox finish i can just tint some epoxy and sand it out prior to finish. If not a couple glued in end grain pieces of wood should do.

I am actually questioning what to finish this project with. Im inclined to go waterlox to get the most out of the figure mostly on the doors. In person they are pretty amazing.

I actually considerd just a oil finish so I could finish them before glue up so as the pannels move i wont have any issues. I really could not see not putting some kind of film on the doors and back pannel considering the figure. Funny enough these are the areas that oil would had most helped with regard to wood movement and shrinkage.

I would also like to have stained the Africa Mahogany a shade or two darker than its natural color. Nothing crazy just a little something to get rid of the pink. Again up against the maple i would have had to do this before glue up. I couldnt figure out how the heck to not get glue all over my oiled pannels and what i would do with the inevitable spot here and there that i would get regardless of how carfeful i was.

Wish i could trudge on with this this week but i cant. Long way to go still with the interior dividers and 8-10 drawers. Then im sure i have a good day of work cleaning the whole thing up prior to finish. If i waterlox it thats another ten coats and ten days. My guess is its a few hours work a coat with a thorough sand,vac and tack between every coat with all those drawers. Man the hours spent on what seems like such a small simple project.

In contrast i will build three of these same size cabinets out of plywood all dadoed together with beaded face frames just the same, glass doors all hounched then mortise and tennoned together and hung in about 3-4 days max. That seems like a lot of time but in reality its 32 hrs max. Ill have 32hrs in Waterlox into this case alone.

[Prashun Patel]

Take it from a guy who has had to fill in many an imperfectly cut dovetail: If it's too small to shim with a shaving, then wetsanding to topcoat to fill the void is superior to epoxy. The epoxy leaves a crisper line which highlights the imperfection. Wetsanding acts to sort of airbrush the imperfection.

Nice work.

[Patrick Walsh]

I am considering wet sanding or grain filling this piece with BLO prior to finishing with waterlox.

I am in the middle of a project where i used West Systems on mahogany to grain fill it prior to Waterlox. As much as im not into a gloss plastic film finish i am very impressed by the grain filling ability of the epoxy to leave a smooth as glass finish.

My foray into the trades started as a uber high end painter/finisher. I think this is where i got my perfectionism from. A good painter can loose his mind taking care to make sure his end product has zero foreigh objects in it when working on sight. This is very easy to control in a spray booth. I think it was these ten years as a high end painter that developed my real appreciation for a perfect finish.

Think $25 million dollar plus homes and custom milled south american mahogany libaries for miles. Or custom doors made from exotics such as wengee and floating birdseye ceiling pannels. That does not take into account the miles of painted oil based interior trim treated like the finish of a car. We would often spend 1-1.5 years on such projects on just the interior finishing. As much as i appreciate the outcome of such a fine finish i really hate doing it. Just not enough to let someone else touch my own work ;)




Take it from a guy who has had to fill in many an imperfectly cut dovetail: If it's too small to shim with a shaving, then wetsanding to topcoat to fill the void is superior to epoxy. The epoxy leaves a crisper line which highlights the imperfection. Wetsanding acts to sort of airbrush the imperfection.

Nice work.

[Patrick Walsh]

Well i just could not help myself. It is almost like this case and bench are calling me all day as i work saying "plywood kitchens are crap, and hounching a million rails and styles together to bead face frames and door styles is annoying as all can be when not a personal project, come play with us instead" ;)

So I broke away for a hour and planed my tails flush. I will still do a final smoothing and fix a couple oopsies.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Fine work! I think you'll discover that moving away from African Mahogany will solve many of the problems like that. That stuff is not tough to work in, but a bit coarse IIRC. In fairness to the wood...it may have needed a slightly sharper cut to cleanly slice that line. On woods like that I will stop and resharpen more often than I would otherwise.

[Patrick Walsh]

What line are you speaking of Brian?

I agree with moving away from African Mahogany. I keep buying it because it is inexpensive and I consider myself deep in the learning phase of this whole furniture grade woodworking.

The few times i worked in actual Honduran mahogany i was in heaven. I also have a inn to some really old mahogany. I cant pick it up till the spring but i am still very excited.

[Brian Holcombe]

Dovetail baseline, the tiny chip from earlier. It's really nothing, even a bit ridiculous on my part to point to it (apologies) but I've had that happen to me when cutting Sapelle, the stuff just loves to chip out, it's up there with WRC in respect to that trait. I've worked WRC and just thought....I know for certain I literally cannot make these chisels sharper!! I've found that I must chop and cannot pare, the force and speed of chopping ends up cutting cleaner than paring when it comes to woods like these.

I've found I've become incredibly particular WRT furniture grade woods. My local suppliers will stock things for me as they know how particular I am about certain things such as the interest in quarter sawn cherry and walnut. They stock it because they know if their most particular furniture makers like it, it will sell with ease.

Vertical grain walnut and cherry, original growth and vertical grain douglas fir and alaskan cedar, quartered white ash, VG red and white oak, and most orientations of Honduran mahogany along a few other woods are really a treat to work with.

[Patrick Walsh]

Brian,

I could not agree with you moore with regard to sharp tools and lumber selection. My toolbox of furniture quality woodworking skills is begining to grow. Enough so that i am feeling confident enough to start using some of my prized lumber collection for the projects i have been saving for when i had the skillset required well under my belt.

As for pointing out The chip please never hold back. I notice everything myself and if i know you i wont hold back either. I can see people cringe when they come to understand how peticular i am am. As much as it might drive others nuts its a trait in myself i have come to really appreciate.

By the way if its the chip i think you are talking about that happened when i was assembling the carcass not cutting or paring the tails and pins. Same with the tipsmof the 2-3 pins that are missing. I got nervouse during glue up and started moving way to fast. I think next time i do a glue up like this i will take the time to meditate for 20 minutes so i am calm then commence gluing.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ah, I see. One thing you can do is lightly chamfer the inside of the socket, that will reduce the chance of damaging the pin, just do it in a way that is does not show at the top of the socket.

It's an admirable trait, certainly comes in handy and helps to set your work well apart!

Glue ups can be extremely nerve wracking. I've learned to stay calm...and keep everything I need within arms reach.