How were paper cartridges loaded ?

[Stephen Tashiro]

How were paper cartridges and "gut" cartridges loaded? Was the whole cartridge rammed down the barrel? Or (as I have seen in movies), did the shooter bite off the end of the paper, pour the powder down the barrel and then ram the bullet in ? if the whole cartridge was rammed down the barrel, didn't that interfere with firing the cartridge with a percussion cap ?

[Lee Schierer]

My understanding is that they bit off the bullet and then poured the powder down the barrel. They would shove the paper in and then spit the ball into the barrel, followed closely by the rammer.

[Tom Stenzel]

Hi Stephen,

Long time muzzleloader but I haven't used paper cartridges. It's my understanding that long ago paper tubes were filled with power and the ball stuck on the end. The ball was pulled, the power dumped in the barrel, then the ball was rammed home with the rod.

That was both safer and more consistent over dumping powder in from a hand held horn that could easily become a grenade.

Where confusion can come in is with the Sharps rifles. The early ones used a nitrate treated paper cartridge where the whole paper cartridge was loaded. But these weren't muzzleloaders, they were breech loaded. Later the design was adapted to metallic cartridges. Directions on how those paper cartridges are wrapped can be found on the net.

So over the years it was both paper not inserted and inserted.

I never used them but now that some memories have been jogged I'm sure someone will set me straight for any and all errors!

-Tom

[Shawn Pixley]

Tom, I believe you to be correct here. In addition to the early Sharps using breach loaded paper cartridges, I seem to recall the British Enfield using paper cartridges. There were some controversial aspects of this but much further discussion could run us afoul of the TOS.

[Stephen Tashiro]

Where confusion can come in is with the Sharps rifles. The early ones used a nitrate treated paper cartridge where the whole paper cartridge was loaded. But these weren't muzzleloaders, they were breech loaded.

I wonder if term "cartridge" applies to both the breech loaded bullet and the other thing that was just a handy packaging of items needed for muzzle loaders.

On the web, I find that there are "gut cartridges" or "skin cartridges" that look too irregular to be breech loaded in a gun.

[Tom Stenzel]

Haven't really looked into that part of the history but I would think there were more than a few people and armories looking into ways to make loading a muzzleloader faster and neater.

I imagine that there were patents issued back then for things like that. Don't know of any commercially successful cartridges but it wouldn't surprise me if I missed something. The introduction of the percussion cap would make such systems possible. From the time of the introduction of the percussion cap to the introduction of the metallic cartridge was about 30 years. Improved muzzleloading methods would have been a fairly short lived enterprise and wouldn't have left much evidence behind as it all burned up.

Any historians out there that know of what happened then? Now that Steve brought it up I'm wondering!

-Tom

[Lee Schierer]

I know at one point the military looked at making a cartridge that did not use the metal cartridge. It was just propellant formed into the correct shape with a primer that would, along with the propellant, completely vanish when the round was fired. The idea was that a soldier could carry more ammunition if he didn't have to carry the weight of the brass. I recall some articles back in the 70's about it and apparently it didn't work out as we still have metal cartridges for our troops.

[Tom Stenzel]

I know at one point the military looked at making a cartridge that did not use the metal cartridge. It was just propellant formed into the correct shape with a primer that would, along with the propellant, completely vanish when the round was fired. The idea was that a soldier could carry more ammunition if he didn't have to carry the weight of the brass. I recall some articles back in the 70's about it and apparently it didn't work out as we still have metal cartridges for our troops.

I'd forgotten about the Daisy guns that shot those. Now I had to look it up.

Geez, Stephen and Lee, between two of you I'm not going to get any sleep for the next few days reading up on this! Good thing a cold front came through. It makes the Lazy-Boy more attractive than normal. ;)

Lee, a search for "caseless ammunition" will turn up a lot of info and why they didn't work out. It was reading one of those links that got me back full circle- there was a reference that paper cartridges were in use in the early 1500's. That would put their introduction just after the development of the matchlock.

According to Wiki the paper itself WAS used. It was put in the barrel as a wadding or patch between the powder and the ball. Makes sense to me.

Going back to your original question, Stephen, a paper cartridge load wouldn't work in a side hammer percussion cap system. But the side hammer was just a flintlock design adapted to caps. Now imagine an in-line hammer where the nipple protruded to a point extending inside the barrel. The protrusion would puncture the paper as it was rammed home. Now you've got something with promise!

I thought of this just sitting here. I'm sure that hundreds or thousands of gunsmiths back then tried to make a go of of the same idea and probably some had success. Some gun owners/tinkerers would have rolled their own.

From the outside such a gun wouldn't appear any different from any other muzzleloader. You'd have to find an historian that followed firearm development closely.

-Tom

"Normal is a setting on a washing machine" -Harry Strasil