Unusual (?) American Chestnut

[Daniel Metz]

Hi Folks,
I'm the new guy here... Not new to woodworking, but a real newbie at turning. I just turned my first bowl, and attached a picture for your comments. The wood is wormy American Chestnut, and there is a story behind that. I will try to keep it short! About 5 years ago, I hired a tree crew to clear some trees to make room for additions. When one of the trees was felled, I noticed the tree crew gathering around. It was the American Chestnut, and on top of being somewhat rare, this one was infused with blood red streaks. I saved several pieces for future turning, and in a matter of hours, I had forestry people from the local university there, as well as a couple of guys from the USDA... How they found out, I have no idea. I think everyone wanted a piece of that tree!

OK, it is 5 years later, and I just acquired my first wood lathe. I have done machine work for the better part of 35 years, but the bowl in the picture is my first attempt at turning wood. This bowl was cut out of a scrap piece I did not think I would be able to use, but it turned out better than I expected. My work cannot compare to some of what I have seen on this site, but have any of you run across any wood with type of coloration? I finished this bowl with a couple coats of Tung oil, and will look at something different for the next bowl, as it turned the light colors yellow. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
Danny

[Bill Blasic]

Sure looks like Acer Negundo (Box Elder) to me. The American Chestnut I have (someplace in the shop) is a darker brown.

[John Keeton]

I agree with Bill on the wood. What did the forestry guys say and do you have a leaf from the tree? A close up pic would help, too.

[John K Jordan]

Danny,

It doesn't look like any chestnut I've seen (I have number of boards and beams). When I worked in the wood shop at Berea College years ago they had a stock and it also had a distinctive brown color. This is an example of some American Chestnut I turned:

350525

Your piece and block certainly look like the classic Box Elder but admittedly color varies widely in individual trees. Fortunately there is a trivial way to eliminate one or the other from consideration. Just look at the end grain.

American Chestnut is strongly ring porous, meaning the pores in the earlywood part of the ring are large compared to the latewood. Box elder is diffuse porous (a type of maple) and the rings are uniformly small and evenly distributed.

All you have to do is take a small piece of wood, maybe 1/2" or 3/4" square, cut to show endgrain on one face, and shave the endgrain with a single-edge razor blade to remove any saw marks and expose the grain. This page describes this in section #7: http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-identification-guide/

The difference between Am. Chestnut and Box Elder will be immediately obvious and will eliminate one or the other from consideration. I put pictures of the two together for comparison:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=350526&d=1483279978

If the endgrain of the wood you have does not look like the one on the left, it is not American or any kind of Chestnut.

If it looks more like the grain in the picture on the right, there has been some mistake. In that case I can't imagine experienced forestry, USDA, and university people all making that mistake even if they just looked at a chainsawn end of a log. The only explanation would be a mixup in the blanks. American Chestnut is valuable - if it ISN'T chestnut maybe someone did a switcheroo. Yikes!

If you want, you can mail a small piece to me and I would be glad to inspect it. (Send me a PM and I'll give you a mailing address) Or, send it to the US gov forest products laboratory and they will Id it for free. The information is in the Wood Database article I linked above in the same section #7.

JKJ

[carl mesaros]

Almost 100% sure this is Box Elder. Really nice piece.

[Jason Edwards]

Agree 100% on the box elder. If you are still in doubt, John K. Jordan offered a good tip: the USDA Forest Products Laboratory in Madison, Wisconsin will ID the wood for free with just a small sample. No fee, but don't be in a big hurry. I live in Wisconsin and red box elder is quite common here. I've been to the Forest Products Lab many times and it's a national treasure.

[Daniel Metz]

Thank you for the replies! Interesting information. I don't remember exactly what the Forestry/USDA guys said, other than American Chestnut. At the time I did not give it much thought, as I had no idea about the history of the chestnut tree. I will look at the end grain as suggested and let you know what I see. I do not have a leaf. I dont guess the bark would help? Also, is the Box Elder also subject to worms? This tree certainly was infested. One other question: What caused the red streaks? I have heard a couple of theories from ground minerals to beetles... Thanks again! Danny

[Michael Mason]

The Box Elder Beetle caused the holes and the streaks. I am sure that you have Box Elder and not Chestnut. Google box elder and you will agree.

[John K Jordan]

The Box Elder Beetle caused the holes and the streaks. I am sure that you have Box Elder and not Chestnut. Google box elder and you will agree.

Here is some scientific research on the red stain: https://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/redstain/ I didn't study it but from scanning it looks like the conclusion is the stain is caused microorganisms following damage by insect or other wounds, a non-specific response thought to be the tree's defense against further damage by fungus. The Wood Database also describes this.

The red does fade fairly rapidly, although some seem to last much longer. Lissi Oland gave me some wood from a box elder root system that has stayed red longer than any other I've seen:

350550

JKJ

[Daniel Metz]

Gentlemen, Thanks again for the responses! I did shave the end grain of a piece of the wood, and it more closely resembles the end grain of the Box Elder. I am not sure how the people who looked at it 5 years ago thought it was Chestnut, but they were obviously mistaken. It makes no difference to me, as I like the wood, and find the red color interesting. A friend is the Department Chair of Forestry at the local university. I am going to show her a piece of the wood and see if she can explain why some of her people called it American Chestnut. I am not doubting that it is Box Elder. Thanks again for all the information. Danny

[Stan Calow]

You asked about other wood with red coloration. I have some pieces of sycamore with raspberry red color in it. Sycamore doesn't look like your pic, but interesting color.

[William Bachtel]

Sycamore can have red in it, I have had Burl from Sycamores and they are light in color (red) and just breath taking. You have Box elder

[Randy Red Bemont]

It's beautiful whatever you call it. I would love to get some one of these days.

Red

[Roger Chandler]

Not that you needed any more confirmation on the wood, but it is Box Elder.........obvious from your pic. Never have I seen any chestnut anywhere similar to this, and I have some in my shop....brown like the wood John J. shows in his pics. I have turned a lot of Box Elder, and have a stash of it underneath my deck now, and it looks like your pic, light wood, red streaks, all caused by the box elder beetle.

[Morey St. Denis]

Oh yeah, it's Box Eder beyond much doubt. A nice one too... Box Elder is closely related to the Maple species, it surly is not the American Chestnut as anything I've encountered within the past forty years. JKJ has provided definitive visual information to identify this particular wood if you have access to a microscope...

[John K Jordan]

Oh yeah, it's Box Eder beyond much doubt. ...definitive visual information to identify this particular wood if you have access to a microscope...

Actually, you just need a hand lens and not a microscope. This is my favorite, good lens, built-in LED lights, and inexpensive! (I bought several of these for the shop - handy in the machine shop, around wood, for splinters...):

350701
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CMDIOBK

Hoadley recommends a 10x magnifier. The guy at the Wood Database says 10x is ideal but anything from 8x-15x is suitable.
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-identification-guide/

I do use a microscope just because I have one on my desk. Note that most microscopes do not have a low enough power to be useful; I couldn't use my laboratory microscopes unless I wanted to look at the cells! The one I use is a low-power stereo microscope, 15x at the lowest power.

JKJ

[Anthony Cayll]

Box Elder for sure. Have plenty of it myself.

[Olaf Vogel]

Here is some scientific research on the red stain: https://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/redstain/ I didn't study it but from scanning it looks like the conclusion is the stain is caused microorganisms following damage by insect or other wounds, a non-specific response thought to be the tree's defense against further damage by fungus. The Wood Database also describes this.

The red does fade fairly rapidly, although some seem to last much longer. Lissi Oland gave me some wood from a box elder root system that has stayed red longer than any other I've seen:

JKJ

Is this related to Manitoba Maple? Because the red stain looks almost identical.


A few months ago, my neighbour knocked on my door and said she was cutting down a big one. Did I want the wood?


Absolutely!


My first pieces were cut with it sopping wet. The wood cut like butter, very nice consistent grain, but white as can be and boring. I stained the first one red in frustration.

350896


The second large bowl was coated in anchor seal and stored for drying. After a month the red patterns formed and it may look really nice.
I assume its a fungus (or reaction to) that specific to the wood species.


But the colors have not penetrated very deep so far.

Daniel - Beautiful wood on your bowl

[robert baccus]

Manitoba Maple is just another common name--hence the reason for scientific names. Same as Box Elder for sure which is a true Maple to confuse things even more.




Bob Baccus ------ Peon in Friday Morning Woodturners Group.

[John K Jordan]

Is this related to Manitoba Maple? Because the red stain looks almost identical...


From the Wood Database page on Box Elder ( http://www.wood-database.com/box-elder/ ):
"Scientific Name: Acer negundo
Common Name(s): Box Elder, Boxelder Maple, Manitoba Maple, Ash-leaved Maple"

The page mentions the fungus as well.

I like the looks of it but it is really soft compared to other maples that grow here.

JKJ

[John Keeton]

Box Elder is considered by many to be a "trash tree" in that the branches have a hollow pith, are weak, and break easily and the seeds sprout easily EVERYWHERE! It is terribly soft and doesn't seem to store well in my experience. I have had some get dry rot.

[Daniel Metz]

Gentlemen, Thanks again for all the information! I really do appreciate it. I have a jewelers loupe, and that is how I looked at the end grain. I also have access to microscopes, but after looking with the loupe, it was obvious it was not chestnut. The only issue I have now is my wife, who loves the bowl, will still not let me bring it in the house! I put 3 coats of Tung Oil on it, and my better half is VERY sensitive to odors. The bowl is still sitting in my work shop where it will stay until the odor dies down... If anyone knows of a way to speed up this process, please tell me. This piece was my first try at turning, and the piece of wood I chose to use was one of the final pieces I salvaged. It was a piece of scrap to learn on... It will be interesting to see if the wood I thought would be really nice is any better. Thanks again!
Danny

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Gentlemen, Thanks again for all the information! I really do appreciate it. I have a jewelers loupe, and that is how I looked at the end grain. I also have access to microscopes, but after looking with the loupe, it was obvious it was not chestnut. The only issue I have now is my wife, who loves the bowl, will still not let me bring it in the house! I put 3 coats of Tung Oil on it, and my better half is VERY sensitive to odors. The bowl is still sitting in my work shop where it will stay until the odor dies down... If anyone knows of a way to speed up this process, please tell me. This piece was my first try at turning, and the piece of wood I chose to use was one of the final pieces I salvaged. It was a piece of scrap to learn on... It will be interesting to see if the wood I thought would be really nice is any better. Thanks again!
Danny

What “Tung Oil” did you use Dan, or was it “Tung Oil Finish”, also you say 3 coats, in what time did you apply that, I mean time between coats, your shop is held at what temperature ??

[Daniel Metz]

Leo, I used Behr "Tung Oil Finish". The 3 coats were applied as per the instructions, at one hour intervals. My shop temperature? My home "shop" where I do the turning is my basement that is not temperature controlled. The temps in the basement since the finish was applied range from 55-65*F. I should also mention the Tung oil finish I used has been in my shop for over 10 years... When I opened it, it looked and smelled just as I remembered it. It does not go bad does it? Thanks! Danny

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo, I used Behr "Tung Oil Finish". The 3 coats were applied as per the instructions, at one hour intervals. My shop temperature? My home "shop" where I do the turning is my basement that is not temperature controlled. The temps in the basement since the finish was applied range from 55-65*F. I should also mention the Tung oil finish I used has been in my shop for over 10 years... When I opened it, it looked and smelled just as I remembered it. It does not go bad does it? Thanks! Danny

I was afraid off that, about the so called Tung Oil Finish, this stuff has no Tung Oil in it, to get around that they Lying , they add the word “finish" behind the Tung Oil, and if you ask the makers, they will tell you that this stuff will make it LOOK LIKE a Tung Oil finish.

Yes real Tung Oil will Polymerize by reaction with the air, to keep it from doing that you will have to eliminate or minimize the contact with air, I pour the Tung Oil into a glass bottle filled right to the top, after using some of the oil I add water to the bottle.

Oil does float on water and so you can keep the bottle full very easily, the bottle I use is a re-closable Beer bottle, and I have done this for at least 20 years and have never had a problem with that.

Tung oil does have to polymerize before you can add another coat, and that does take a while, if you add another coat before that, the first coat will not get the needed air contact and will then not fully harden up for a very long time if ever.

For that reason I buy what is called Polymerized Tung Oil, it has been heated at quite a high temperature without any air, by doing this the Tung Oil gets too thick to use easily, so a volatile thinner is added which will evaporate quite quickly and the Polymerized Tung Oil will then harden in about 8 Hrs if the temperature and humidity is right, too cold and it will not happen, but temps above 60F will work fine, below 40F it doesn’t, I normally leave it just overnight before adding the next coat.

I get my Polymerized Tung Oil from Lee Valley.

Behrs MSDS info
351061 351062

Just to add here, Minwax does the same thing, and sells Tung Oil Finish, and things like Teak Oil finish, so you better find out what you really buy, pull the MSDS sheets up and read all of it, or never buy from these Companies.

[John K Jordan]

I was afraid off that, about the so called Tung Oil Finish, this stuff has no Tung Oil in it, to get around that they Lying , they add the word “finish" behind the Tung Oil

Shame on them. I understand the "Danish" oil label is also a bit misleading.

Honey producers also have been known to lie. They used to label a mix of honey and corn syrup and/or sugar as "Honey". Some even claimed "Pure honey" or "Natural honey." After a crackdown by the US FDA they are now supposed to label this junk as "Honey Blend". A lot of the grocery store honey is a blend. I don't know how it is handled in Canada.

Even if it is real honey I would hesitate to buy it from the grocery store. Much of it comes from China and much has be found to contain high levels of pesticides. I remember when inspectors rejected one contaminated shipload on the east coast but the importers somehow got it in through New Orleans. The importers do tricks to get around the bad reputation of Chinese honey such as ship to Argentina and then import it into the US as Argentine honey.

Since honey can be fingerprinted by analyzing the pollen it contains, the Chinese have also heated and filtered out all the pollen. Unfortunately, heating also destroys the beneficial enzymes and taste.

I saw another misleading label once. Since Sourwood honey is desired by some, one company called itself the Sourwood Honey company and labeled it's non-sourwood honey as Sourwood Honey. Good grief.

BTW, for the best honey buy local. Look for "raw, unheated, unprocessed" honey.

JKJ