Preparing the chip breaker on LN#4

[Tony Wilkins]

As part of all the information on the benefits of a closely set chip breaker I noticed that honing it was part of the equation. I'm set to work on the one from my Lie-Nielsen #4 but want to make sure I have it right before taking it to stone. The side that rests against the blade should be flat correct? Don't think that should take long on an LN cap iron. The other side should be hone to 45* or greater with 50* or higher optimum?

[Patrick Chase]

As part of all the information on the benefits of a closely set chip breaker I noticed that honing it was part of the equation. I'm set to work on the one from my Lie-Nielsen #4 but want to make sure I have it right before taking it to stone. The side that rests against the blade should be flat correct? Don't think that should take long on an LN cap iron. The other side should be hone to 45* or greater with 50* or higher optimum?

The side that rests against the blade should be flat across the blade, but should have a bit of undercut along the blade's long axis. An LN breaker should already be near-perfect in both respects, such that you just need to hone the leading edge a bit.

What you ultimately want is a continuous line of contact between the back of the blade and the leading edge of the cap iron. Tightening the cap iron will cause it to "flatten out" against the blade, so if it isn't undercut to begin with then doing so will cause the leading edge of the cap iron to lift away from the blade, which is very bad.

[Pat Barry]

The side that rests against the blade should be flat across the blade, but should have a bit of undercut along the blade's long axis. An LN breaker should already be near-perfect in both respects, such that you just need to hone the leading edge a bit.

What you ultimately want is a continuous line of contact between the back of the blade and the leading edge of the cap iron. Tightening the cap iron will cause it to "flatten out" against the blade, so if it isn't undercut to begin with then doing so will cause the leading edge of the cap iron to lift away from the blade, which is very bad.
+1 --- Keep the leading (contact edge) flush to the blade and close to the edge -down by the river (= for Prashun!)

[Tony Wilkins]

Great! Thanks for the quick replies.

Is my understanding of beveling the other side of the cap iron to greater than 45 degrees correct? If so my plan is to start at 45 and deepen it as I hone it periodically in future.

[Pat Barry]

Great! Thanks for the quick replies.

Is my understanding of beveling the other side of the cap iron to greater than 45 degrees correct? If so my plan is to start at 45 and deepen it as I hone it periodically in future.
A 45 degree bed angle with another 45 on the chip breaker might be a tad too much, athough I don't recall the Kato video's on the topic, it just seems a bit steep.

[Derek Cohen]

I added a 50 degree bevel to the leading edge. Be aware that the LN chipbreaker does not have a lot of meat in the area. That is, the ledge is quite narrow, and a bevel will further reduce its width. The bevel does not need to be more than a 1/16".

I have also played with rounded vs flat leading edges. I cannot notice a difference. Leave it flat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

I added a 50 degree bevel to the leading edge. Be aware that the LN chipbreaker does not have a lot of meat in the area. That is, the ledge is quite narrow, and a bevel will further reduce its width. The bevel does not need to be more than a 1/16".

I have also played with rounded vs flat leading edges. I cannot notice a difference. Leave it flat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek. I was just on your site reading about this (in the veritas custom plane articles)

[Robert Engel]

You shouldn't have to touch a LN. Personally I would be very hesitant to mess with it.

I've never seen the need to do this except a cheap plane or damage cap iron.

[Brian Holcombe]

I bevel mine pretty steeply, maybe 75 degrees~

Robert, all part of the setup process, nothing wrong with moving away from the factory set. Cap irons wear and must be maintained in addition to initial setup.

Ive also replaced the blades on mine, so they are no virgins.

[Prashun Patel]

close to the edge -down by the river (= for Prashun!)

YES, Nice!

Tony, beware of messing with it out of the box. I would personally use it without fiddling with the breaker. If you find that shavings jam there or it stops cutting, despite a well-sharpened blade, then perhaps you can look there.

[Derek Cohen]

You shouldn't have to touch a LN. Personally I would be very hesitant to mess with it.

I've never seen the need to do this except a cheap plane or damage cap iron.

Robert, the factor leading edge on both the LN and the Veritas chipbreakers is 30 degrees. This is too low for the chipbreaker to redirect shavings appropriately. It needs to be around 50 degrees. Honing a secondary bevel is the easiest way to do this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

A 45 degree bed angle with another 45 on the chip breaker might be a tad too much, athough I don't recall the Kato video's on the topic, it just seems a bit steep.
Just watched the video again, they concluded that a much steeper angle (80 deg) was most effective at reducing tearout
.http://giantcypress.net/post/23159548132/this-is-the-full-version-of-the-video-created-by
What is the chipbreaker angle as delivered by LN?

[Keegan Shields]

Sorry to revive this thread. I’m playing around with a secondary bevel on the chip breaker of my LN 4 1/2. I tried 45 deg, since that’s what my guide goes up to, and it seemed to help a bit in some knotty white oak I’m using as a test.

Based on that video from Japan, it looks like their recommendation is an 80 deg bevel set back 0.3mm or between 1/64th and 1/128th when taking a .1mm shaving (4 thou)

Does that sound right?

[Jim Koepke]

Sorry to revive this thread. I’m playing around with a secondary bevel on the chip breaker of my LN 4 1/2. I tried 45 deg, since that’s what my guide goes up to, and it seemed to help a bit in some knotty white oak I’m using as a test.

Based on that video from Japan, it looks like their recommendation is an 80 deg bevel set back 0.3mm or between 1/64th and 1/128th when taking a .1mm shaving (4 thou)

Does that sound right?

You may get lots of opinions on whether or not this sounds right. The real test of it being right or not is how the shaving is exiting. If the shaving is jamming or crinkling like the bellows of an accordion, then you are set too close.

With a shaving at 0.004" the chip breaker doesn't have to be real close. That is a fairly thick shaving for smoothing. In the past some have suggested setting the chip breaker back just a half hair further than the thickness of the shaving to be taken.

jtk

[Mike Brady]

Leave it alone. Who so you think would most likely be the expert on this subject? If you have a question the LN folks could answer it.

[Derek Cohen]

Leave it alone. Who so you think would most likely be the expert on this subject? If you have a question the LN folks could answer it.

No. With all due respect to LN for their manufacturing expertise, their recommendation for controlling tearout is likely to be a high cutting angle, either using a high angle frog they sell, or a back bevel.

All chipbreakers require a high angle at the leading edge to work well. Somewhere in the region of 50-80 degrees (the angle will affect where you position the chipbreaker behind the edge of the blade). All chipbreakers - LN, Veritas, Clifton - come standard with 30 degree leading edges. Stanley’s rounded chipbreaker is higher - I am not sure how to measure this, but it could be around 50 degrees or more.

Tune the leading edge of every chipbreaker if you want the tearout-less performance you seek.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Keegan Shields]

Thanks Mike.

I would expect LN to be the absolute authority on manufacturing their plane and its basic use. I see this more like hot rodding.

In any case, if I booger up a chip breaker, I can get a replacement, not a big deal. WRT my question, I think my cave dwelling elders might have some valuable input.


Thanks Jim,

I don’t have a micrometer, so no way to measure the shavings I’m getting, but 4 thou sounded thick. Lots of varying advice, but I’ve always thought I might be setting the chip breaker to far back, even though it’s pretty close.

Interestingly, that video seems to show a relationship between the chipbreaker angle and the distance you can set it back from the edge (steeper angle allows more setback).

[Keegan Shields]

Thanks Derek. I appreciate you sharing your experience and also the instructional material you’ve written.

Now to devise some type of jig to sharpen a secondary bevel at 70-80 deg!

[Derek Cohen]

Keegan, don't take the video literally. The planing there was a machine, not a hand plane. I would try 50 degrees first before going to 70/80 degrees.

Use a digital angle box to create a guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

We use a rounded bevel for the cap iron. This is the traditional method. I have used a rounded bevel which meets the plane iron at 80 degrees for 45 years.

I have been to about a dozen Lie-Nielsen hand tool events. Their expertise is not at a high level.

[Rafael Herrera]

As part of all the information on the benefits of a closely set chip breaker I noticed that honing it was part of the equation. I'm set to work on the one from my Lie-Nielsen #4 but want to make sure I have it right before taking it to stone. The side that rests against the blade should be flat correct? Don't think that should take long on an LN cap iron. The other side should be hone to 45* or greater with 50* or higher optimum?

The LN cap iron is a legacy of an originally poor design. The video below demonstrates the purpose and mode of operation of a cap iron. A steep angle, as Warren indicates, is all you need to grind to get the cap iron working properly, there's no specific angle. Isn't this information on the user manual or on LN's website? This is a pretty key feature if the plane is to be used to its full potential.

https://youtu.be/c0N5pV8N1H0

[Ben Ellenberger]

We use a rounded bevel for the cap iron. This is the traditional method. I have used a rounded bevel which meets the plane iron at 80 degrees for 45 years.

I have been to about a dozen Lie-Nielsen hand tool events. Their expertise is not at a high level.

I also round the bevel with cap irons. I don’t fuss with exact angles, but aim for the very tip to be steeper than 45 degrees. I typically use a guide for sharpening, but find it much simpler to tune up a cap iron free-hand. Just pull it backwards across the stone and sweep it upward as you go. Only the very tip needs to be tuned up, so it doesn’t take long.

[Patrick Baney]

The LN cap iron is a legacy of an originally poor design. The video below demonstrates the purpose and mode of operation of a cap iron. A steep angle, as Warren indicates, is all you need to grind to get the cap iron working properly, there's no specific angle. Isn't this information on the user manual or on LN's website? This is a pretty key feature if the plane is to be used to its full potential.

https://youtu.be/c0N5pV8N1H0

Thank you for that remarkably unnerving video. Makes me want to switch to BU planes.

[Rafael Herrera]

Thank you for that remarkably unnerving video. Makes me want to switch to BU planes.

You're welcome. Perhaps you should switch to BU planes.

[Mark Rainey]

Rafael, that is a very interesting video. Illustrates the importance of the cap iron. What date do you estimate the video? Towards the end they show a cap iron at a 90 degree bevel. Any Neanders play around with that angle?

[Patrick Baney]

Rafael, that is a very interesting video. Illustrates the importance of the cap iron. What date do you estimate the video? Towards the end they show a cap iron at a 90 degree bevel. Any Neanders play around with that angle?

I increased the angle to 70-75 on my LN4 chipbreaker before some gnarly bloodwood I was working with stopped tearing. Since then I haven't had any tear out to speak of with that plane on any exotic I've come across. Perhaps there's some wood out there interlocked & wild enough to require 90...

[Keegan Shields]

That did the trick! Thanks for the help.

After putting a 70ish degree secondary bevel on the chip breaker (LN new version) of my 4 1/2, I can now plane this white oak in either direction without tear out.

490352

Do straight shavings like the one in the picture mean the chip breaker is properly engaged? I thought I read that somewhere.

[Jim Koepke]

Do straight shavings like the one in the picture mean the chip breaker is properly engaged? I thought I read that somewhere.

That seems to be a common theory.

Though often my molding planes have shavings like that and there is no chip breaker other than the wedge.

490367

If you are planing in either direction without tear out, something is working right.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Yes, but the real test is if you can plane those faces from either direction without tearout.

[Rafael Herrera]

Rafael, that is a very interesting video. Illustrates the importance of the cap iron. What date do you estimate the video? Towards the end they show a cap iron at a 90 degree bevel. Any Neanders play around with that angle?

I don't know the date of the video, I asked but got no response yet. I really don't measure the angle when I prepare a chipbreaker, I roll it on the stone to almost vertical, so it ends up being a very steep rounded bevel.

[Rafael Herrera]

That did the trick! Thanks for the help.

After putting a 70ish degree secondary bevel on the chip breaker (LN new version) of my 4 1/2, I can now plane this white oak in either direction without tear out.

Do straight shavings like the one in the picture mean the chip breaker is properly engaged? I thought I read that somewhere.

Indeed, when the cap iron is engaged the shavings will shoot out of the plane straight. If you retract it, the shavings will curl onto themselves.

[Derek Cohen]

I was asked (yesterday) for photos of my Veritas Custom #4 on the UK forum. Here they are …

Here is my #4: 42 degree bed, "Stanley" handle, mushroom knob ..

https://proxy.imagearchive.com/1e0/1e077b4a69bd3d4e3537ab602bd61fff.jpg



PM-V11 blade; chipbreaker modified with a partly-rounded leading edge, which has a small secondary at around 70-80 degrees; blade hollow ground at 32 degrees and free-hand honed to 13000 (Sigma).

https://proxy.imagearchive.com/4f1/4f11a6d8846c6fca3b2ae36dea3618ae.jpg


https://proxy.imagearchive.com/d9b/d9bf21fb3fc00cd2ef3a959c097d6f5a.jpg


Driver for the screws ...

https://proxy.imagearchive.com/029/029e37ee14a269d92bde9c8503ccf48c.jpg



Finally, shavings on Jarrah scrap quickly made for this post. This was into the grain. The quality of the surface is blemish-free. Smooth finish, but the example of wood is open-grained and quite coarse.

https://proxy.imagearchive.com/cf2/cf23cb5de7e2f83a8aa62171217ecf94.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

Indeed, when the cap iron is engaged the shavings will shoot out of the plane straight. If you retract it, the shavings will curl onto themselves.

And usually they are compressed, that is the length of the shaving is shorter than the length of the board it came from...is that correct?