Is Liogier "Sapphire" TiAlN?

[Patrick Chase]

Looked through the archives and found plenty about Liogier, but nothing addressed this particular question:

Does anybody know what Liogier's "proprietary" Sapphire coating is?

The color and stated hardness of HV 2800 are both exact matches to Titanium Aluminum Nitride, which is used on some higher-end drill bits (https://www.zoro.com/chicago-latrobe-jobber-drill-bit-set-150asptc-15-pc-42800/i/G3623943/) (note that that's a 15-bit set for $225. Did I mention that it's expensive?). The wording of Liogier's corrosion resistance claim is also consistent with TiAlN. Can anybody confirm?

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; why is there a high need for the customer to know the critical process involved. As far as I am concerned that's the intellectual property of Logier.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick; why is there a high need for the customer to know the critical process involved. As far as I am concerned that's the intellectual property of Logier.

Stewie;

They're certainly within their rights not to disclose it. I think it's a bad decision in this instance because it doesn't afford them much real protection and may annoy knowledgeable customers, but it's their call.

With that said, anybody in possession of a tool would be equally within their rights to use analytical methods (as opposed to theft of secrets) to determine what it is, and then do anything they want with the results. The analytical result would be that second individual's IP, not Liogier's. I was merely checking to see if somebody had created such analytical IP, and if so whether they were willing to share.

IP law isn't as blatantly biased in favor of the maker as you seem to believe. It is if anything biased in favor of disclosure, not secrecy. There are exceptions, such as the US DMCA's notorious prohibition on reverse-engineering cryto-based digital rights management, but AFAIK none of those apply here.

[Jim Koepke]

I think it's a bad decision in this instance because it doesn't afford them much real protection and may annoy knowledgeable customers, but it's their call.

Maybe they have lost a few sales to some customers with whom they really do not want to bother.

From what has been posted here there seems to be a backlog of orders. Maybe if there were no one waiting for their wares they would be inclined to try and pump up demand by disclosing some secrets.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

Jim; I am rather disappointed to hear you openly undermine the reputation of Noel Logier's Company. As an ongoing user of Noel's merchandise, I cant fault the price and quality of service being offered. If this is the type of feedback that we can expect from the OPs opening topic of discussion, it needs to be relegated to the sinbin by the Moderators asap.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Jim; I am rather disappointed to hear you openly undermine the reputation of Noel Logier's Company. As an ongoing user of Noel's merchandise, I cant find fault with price and quality of service being offered. If this type of feedback is the likely result of the OPs opening topic of discussion, it needs to be relegated to the sinbin by the Moderators asap.

Stewie;

To be clear, I think that Liogier and LV (the two companies I singled out) both have unimpeachable reputations. I disagree with that they're doing in this instance, but that shouldn't be interpreted as an assault on their reputations. It isn't.

I also don't think that Jim impugned Liogier in any way. They're a business, and as such they engage in marketing. Jim merely pointed out some marketing tradeoffs that they may be making today or may make in the future. There's nothing derogatory about that IMO.

[Derek Cohen]

Patrick, it is essentially irrelevant what the physical properties actually are - that is an intellectual issue that may be of interest to some (obviously to you). Call it marketing. What is relevant is whether the claims for longevity are backed up. That is what users/purchasers are paying for. Comparative testing (using the tool and its competitors) will reveal that. A metallurgical analysis offers little real value.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, it is essentially irrelevant what the physical properties actually are - that is an intellectual issue that may be of interest to some (obviously to you). Call it marketing. What is relevant is whether the claims for longevity are backed up. That is what users/purchasers are paying for. Comparative testing (using the tool and its competitors) will reveal that. A metallurgical analysis offers little real value.

In principle I agree - it wouldn't matter what the composition was if we had thorough life-testing data from somebody using the Traditional and Sapphire rasp in a manner representative of my intended usage. The problem is that we don't. I can't find such data for *any* use model, beyond Liogier's own claim of a "4X" difference in edge life. There are plenty of people like Holtey who subjectively attest to the long life of the sapphire rasps, but no objective comparisons AFAIK.

Given the known and fairly long endurance of the "Traditional" rasps it would take many years for most users to see the benefit of Sapphire, so the fact that there aren't any such data out there shouldn't be a surprise.

In the absence of life-test results the composition is a useful shortcut to make a reasonable estimate of the incremental value to me (in tool life) of the "Sapphire" treatment. I have a fair bit of experience with TiAlN tools (and TiN, and TiCN, etc) so if I know it's one of those then I can make pretty decent guesses about what it will buy me.

Engineers make such judgments all the time. What we're debating here is basically the difference between "black box" and "white box" testing. It takes a lot more effort to accurately assess something when you don't know its innards.

[Stewie Simpson]

A list of online feedback on Logier Rasps. http://www.liogier-france.fr/user-testimonials?lang=en

[Jim Koepke]

Jim; I am rather disappointed to hear you openly undermine the reputation of Noel Logier's Company. As an ongoing user of Noel's merchandise, I cant fault the price and quality of service being offered. If this is the type of feedback that we can expect from the OPs opening topic of discussion, it needs to be relegated to the sinbin by the Moderators asap.

Stewie;

Stewie, I fail to see how my comments:


Maybe they have lost a few sales to some customers with whom they really do not want to bother.

From what has been posted here there seems to be a backlog of orders. Maybe if there were no one waiting for their wares they would be inclined to try and pump up demand by disclosing some secrets.

jtk


have in anyway undermined the reputation of Liogier, even down to the part of spelling the name correctly.

There rasps seem to be selling faster than they can make them. Should they forgo their principles regarding their intellectual property or proprietary processes to sell a few more tools?

In my experience the "customer" who demands to know every trade secret before making a purchase is often one who is more trouble when compared to the little business they will likely bring to your door. Often they will become dissatisfied with their purchase with little reason. Chances are they will bring more head aches than business.

Other than that, it is often easier for a company to have a standard answer anyone answering the phone can give instead of having to stop work every time someone calls demanding to know exactly how they achieve their quality.

My question is why do we need two different threads involved in discussing the coating used to create a hardness barrier on rasps?

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

In the absence of life-test results the composition is a useful shortcut to make a reasonable estimate of the incremental value to me (in tool life) of the "Sapphire" treatment. I have a fair bit of experience with TiAlN tools (and TiN, and TiCN, etc) so if I know it's one of those then I can make pretty decent guesses about what it will buy me.

Ok. This helps. Now I see why you're asking.

[Phil Mueller]

From a marketing perspective, claims backed up by "reasons to believe" are always stronger and considerably more pursuasive than claims alone. Claims without stated, factual "reasons to believe" are simply fluff IMO. If I catch Patrick's point, a claim of 4X longer without any backup is pure smoke.

[Patrick Chase]

From a marketing perspective, claims backed up by "reasons to believe" are always stronger and considerably more pursuasive than claims alone. Claims without stated, factual "reasons to believe" are simply fluff IMO. If I catch Patrick's point, a claim of 4X longer without any backup is pure smoke.

That's perhaps a bit stronger than I intended. I don't doubt that it lasts "4X longer" for some wood[s] and use pattern. Given that it's Liogier making the statement I'm willing to take that much on faith.

The thing you have to realize is that benefits like this are invariably nonuniform/nonlinear w.r.t. use/application, and that's where knowing the details becomes useful.

[george wilson]

Whatever the coating is,I sam DELIGHTED that they are making use of coatings that have been in use for MANY years in metal cutting tools.

[Patrick Chase]

Whatever the coating is,I sam DELIGHTED that they are making use of coatings that have been in use for MANY years in metal cutting tools.

Indeed. TiAlN coatings have been in widespread use since the late 90s or so, TiN and TiCN even longer.

IMO rasps are a perfect candidate precisely because they generally aren't resharpened (Boggs etc notwithstanding). The "one-shot" nature of a coating like TiAlN therefore isn't an issue as it would be in some other settings.

[Pat Barry]

Is knowing this important to your decision to purchase said rasp? Why? What if it is something uniquely different and, for the time being, secret? Would that cause you not to buy it?

[Patrick Chase]

Is knowing this important to your decision to purchase said rasp? Why? What if it is something uniquely different and, for the time being, secret? Would that cause you not to buy it?

It would force me to spend more time wading through low-signal-to-noise subjective opinions and trying to sift the information from the chaff. It would also cause me to limit my investment until I gained confidence that the coating adds values for my use (which would take years).

In general, not knowing what the "shiny new thing" is forces me to make conservative assumptions about its likely value. That in turn tends to bias me towards going with the known, tried-and-true solution.

[Jim Koepke]

It would force me to spend more time wading through low-signal-to-noise subjective opinions and trying to sift the information from the chaff. It would also cause me to limit my investment until I gained confidence that the coating adds values for my use (which would take years).

In general, not knowing what the "shiny new thing" is forces me to make conservative assumptions about its likely value. That in turn tends to bias me towards going with the known, tried-and-true solution.

That is tragic. With an untarnished reputation of customer satisfaction you still wouldn't "take chance" on a Lee Valley PM-V11 blade. If it didn't fulfill your needs or desires it could have gone back for a cheerful refund. Instead you hold tenaciously to a "need to know what is in it before buying" attitude. I hope I never have to wait for service in a restaurant while you are holding up the wait staff with your demands of knowing every ingredient of every dish on the menu.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

That is tragic. With an untarnished reputation of customer satisfaction you still wouldn't "take chance" on a Lee Valley PM-V11 blade.

Pat asked a hypothetical question (how I would respond if something were unknowable) and I gave an equally hypothetical answer.

I have many thousands of dollars worth of tools with PM-V11 blades. In that case I avoided the aforementioned hypothetical problem via the magic of XRF.

As I've said a few times, this has nothing to do with "reputation". I believe that they've always been unimpeachably scrupulous, but even so their statements can't possibly be applicable to everybody. Yes, they will do whatever it takes to make me happy, but I don't necessarily want to spend my time and effort figuring out experimentally whether my use model matches their assumptions. Also, short of buying 2 or 3 of everything and then returning all but the best, it's difficult to tell what the benefits of something like PM-V11 are *for my use case*. Opportunity costs are notoriously difficult to measure.

Liogier's Sapphire rasps present an even thornier challenge, because at the rate I would use them it would take years of using both types to figure out if I got value for my money. Even the most ethical tool manufacturer wouldn't accept a return under those conditions. Better to just give customers the information they need to make informed decisions.

[Pat Barry]

I see the sapphire commands a ~3x price. For an industrial user thus might make sense. For low frequency, home use, etc I'd live with the standard tool. Save your money and buy more variety. That would be most useful for most of us.

[Tim Cooper Louisiana]

That is tragic. With an untarnished reputation of customer satisfaction you still wouldn't "take chance" on a Lee Valley PM-V11 blade. If it didn't fulfill your needs or desires it could have gone back for a cheerful refund. Instead you hold tenaciously to a "need to know what is in it before buying" attitude. I hope I never have to wait for service in a restaurant while you are holding up the wait staff with your demands of knowing every ingredient of every dish on the menu.

jtk

Haha. You know that happens. What pesticides were used on the lemons in this lemonade? Are these Berkshire lemons harvested under moonlight during the waning hours of the summer solstice? What do you mean you don't know? What sort of Chik-fil-a is this?!!!

Im kidding. Sort of 😀

[Patrick Chase]

Haha. You know that happens. What pesticides were used on the lemons in this lemonade? Are these Berkshire lemons harvested under moonlight during the waning hours of the summer solstice? What do you mean you don't know? What sort of Chik-fil-a is this?!!!

Im kidding. Sort of 

There's certainly a question of relevance. The examples you give are ones where the relevance is questionable, because there's little chance that the distinction will make any difference to a real user.

I humbly suggest that in the two examples I gave (alloy and coating of a hand tool) are closer to: "Are you selling me an orange or a lemon"? IMO the distinctions are important and relevant at that level.

[Jim Koepke]

I have many thousands of dollars worth of tools with PM-V11 blades. In that case I avoided the aforementioned hypothetical problem via the magic of XRF.

This is getting to be a bit tedious. If you have results from XRF and they confirm the metal is what you think it is, what is the big fuss?

If as Kees proposed the metal is the same as CTS-XHP there may be a problem with Lee Valley saying so. If it is made by another maker they may not be able to use the same trade name or even suggest it is the same metal.

With my use of rasps, it isn't likely mine will be wearing out, let alone four, in my lifetime. The extra hardness coating living up to its marketing claim would still be an extravagance for my needs. Someone who makes hardwood saw handles all day everyday may need the sapphire coating for their work. If that were me it would be worth taking a chance to purchase one. In your case you could then subject it to Xray Fluorescence, find an answer and share it with the world or smugly keep it as your own secret.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

This is getting to be a bit tedious.

Then why do you keep replying?

I started this thread (as opposed to the other one) to ask if anybody had and was willing to share a very specific bit of information. Instead I've mostly gotten arguments for why I should want to be blissfully ignorant.

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; have you tried to contact Noel Logier to learn more about their Sapphire Coating. Have to tried to contact Rob Lee on their use of PM steel. Is their opinion of no relevance to these discussions.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

I see the sapphire commands a ~3x price. For an industrial user thus might make sense. For low frequency, home use, etc I'd live with the standard tool. Save your money and buy more variety. That would be most useful for most of us.

Pat; one could say the same thing when outlaying a lot of money for a high end bench plane, when a cheaper 2nd hand Stanley would have served the same purpose for a low end user.

As to the reason why I switched from the standard Logier Rasps to the Sapphire Coated, the (standard finish) fine stitch rasps were not holding up to the demands of the more abrasive, harder Aussie timbers I prefer to work with. If one were to restrict themselves to the more common softer native timbers in the USA, its then questionable whether the extra cost to purchase the Sapphire Coating would be of much advantage to a low end user.

Stewie;

[george wilson]

It seems about impossible to keep getting back to the now closed thread,doesn't it????

[Ron Bontz]

In regards to Noel's rasp, I have no clue. I have both. I do know they hold up better, but to what extent I couldn't say. That would require a more scientific test. The debate reminds me of those who profess they use "Swedish spring steel" with an RC of 52. A generic term often used to refer to several types of spring steel. So is it 1075, 1084, or 1095? Most would read "Swedish spring steel" and that is as far as it would go. They "assume". Others want to know exactly what they are getting. After all, 1075, or 1084 may not hold an edge as well, But most would not even notice. Some one in marketing once said, "if you disclose every thing about your product, you are giving away the store." Either way, I have no horse in the race, but do enjoy reading these post and learning. I am reasonably sure I have learned more about steel in the last few years than I ever thought I would want. :) Thanks for posting. Best wishes and Happy New Year.

[Joe Williams]

I have never owned a rasp and I am getting ready to order some from Logier. It's painful enough to spend the money but in my view it's not like I can't get my money out of them if I don't use them or I die and my family sells them. As someone that is a somewhat casual user, do the non sapphire coated (regardless of what it actually is) last a lifetime of casual use or would I be better off buying the coated and not worry about it? Thanks for any advice you could give.

[Tony Wilkins]

I have never owned a rasp and I am getting ready to order some from Logier. It's painful enough to spend the money but in my view it's not like I can't get my money out of them if I don't use them or I die and my family sells them. As someone that is a somewhat casual user, do the non sapphire coated (regardless of what it actually is) last a lifetime of casual use or would I be better off buying the coated and not worry about it? Thanks for any advice you could give.

I have one of each and very casual use on each (both on the finer grain end of things). Can't say that I have noticed much wear on either. I think you would be safe buying a non-coated and have it last your life time. If I were to do it again I think I might prefer to use the sapphire coating on a rougher grain rather than finer.

[Patrick Chase]

I have never owned a rasp and I am getting ready to order some from Logier. It's painful enough to spend the money but in my view it's not like I can't get my money out of them if I don't use them or I die and my family sells them. As someone that is a somewhat casual user, do the non sapphire coated (regardless of what it actually is) last a lifetime of casual use or would I be better off buying the coated and not worry about it? Thanks for any advice you could give.

Depends on what woods you work, what you define as "casual", etc.

To be completely honest, if you use one of either enough to wear it out then you'll probably feel like you got your money's worth :-).