Need to pick out a rasp..... [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Adrian Ponik

12-22-2016, 7:00 PM

Hello everyone,

For my birthday recently my wife (who is the best ever) got together with my parents, her parents, and both of our siblings and they all together gave me a chunk of money to attend a class at the Marc Adams School of Woodworking. I'm very excited about this since I have had no formal woodworking training. The class I am going to take is their Joinery I course. Looking at the tool list they recommend bringing with you, one of the things they say to get is a cabinet maker's rasp - specifically the Nicholson #49 or #50. I have heard that the Nicholson rasps aren't nearly as good as they once were, and I also know there are other options out there, but most of them are significantly more expensive.

So, a little about me. I know rasps are great tools, but I also understand most of their utility is in doing curves and shaping. I am not a real big fan of ball and claw feet, Queen Anne style furniture, etc, so I don't ever see a myself spending hours with a rasp. I imagine in the joinery class we will mainly be using it for fine tuning tenons, but I honestly don't know. That being said, money is always a concern. I would love to just go out and spend $130 on an Auriou rasp and not worry about it, but I can't justify that for the little bit I think would use a rasp.

So, this is where I am at - Are the Nicholson rasps really THAT bad? Would I be better off getting a $35 handcut rasp (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=20133&cat=1,42524) from Lee Valley? Something else? I'm soliciting opinions for what rasp would suit my needs ideally for less than $60. Please, not to be a jerk, but if you could refrain from one line answers of "Just get a Auriou/Gramercy/Liogier/etc." I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm really trying to find something that will suit my needs (which are relatively modest) and generate a discussion about what makes a good rasp vs a mediocre vs a poor one all without breaking the bank. Thanks.

Malcolm Schweizer

12-22-2016, 7:15 PM

I did not know LV was selling hand-cut rasps. I took a peek and they look like a great buy for the price. I suspect those are Pakistani rasps- purely a suspicion- the only issue with Pakistani tools is the quality of the metal can vary. I have not tried the Veritas rasps but for that price you really can't lose.

I sprung for the Auriou and the Grammercy rasps. They are a pure dream to use and leave a smooth finish compared to a Nicholson rasp. It's a "you get what you pay for" thing, but the price difference is quite a bit. If you are not regularly using it, go for the less expensive version. I always say spend the most on your basic set and your finishing tools, and go cheaper on the rough-in tools.

Jerry Thompson

12-22-2016, 7:25 PM

I just got an Auriou #13. I have used it on rounding over edges on a cradle rocker and cannot believe how fast and smooth it worked.

Jim Koepke

12-22-2016, 8:57 PM

So, this is where I am at - Are the Nicholson rasps really THAT bad? Would I be better off getting a $35 handcut rasp from Lee Valley? Something else?

I have a Brazilian made Nicholson #50 pattern maker's rasp and it isn't all that bad.

If it was available at the time I may have chosen the Lee Valley rasps in your link.

I also have an Auriou #13 & #15 that are much better at leaving a smooth surface.

For a joinery class you will most likely be using a rasp for fitting tenons to its corresponding mortise. Not a super critical task and not one that will be visible after gluing it together. In a pinch a four-in-hand type rasp would likely be usable.

jtk

Patrick Chase

12-22-2016, 9:04 PM

So, this is where I am at - Are the Nicholson rasps really THAT bad? Would I be better off getting a $35 handcut rasp (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=20133&cat=1,42524) from Lee Valley?

I have the Nicholson 49 and 50, a couple of the Ajax rasps (the cheap LV hand-cut rasps that you reference) and a few Aurious. The Ajax rasps are very good. They're significantly faster and smoother-cutting than my Nicholsons. There seems to be a fair amount of sample variation in recent Nicholsons and some folks like Pete Taran report good results, so YMMV.

The Aurious are better still, but IMO the Ajax rasps are a classic exercise in the 80/20 rule: They get you most of the way there for a fraction of the cost.

Patrick Chase

12-22-2016, 9:08 PM

I
For a joinery class you will most likely be using a rasp for fitting tenons to its corresponding mortise. Not a super critical task and not one that will be visible after gluing it together. In a pinch a four-in-hand type rasp would likely be usable.

For that purpose I'd choose an Iwasaki (sp?) file or float over a rasp, though I'd use a chisel (99% of the time) or skew block plane before either. Files, rasps, and floats have a nasty habit of creating convex cheeks if you're not *very* careful.

Frederick Skelly

12-22-2016, 9:15 PM

Try the LV. I have yet to buy anything from them that wasnt "as advertised". Plus, you already have input from at least one owner that they are very good. If you arent happy, they will take it back.

steven c newman

12-22-2016, 9:32 PM

There is now a cnc stitched set of rasps from Italy.. I can go look the name up after a bit. Shipping is about ....$40.
Supposed to be as good as the other European rasps.

Some company called Corradis.....Know a fellow that is doing a comparison test between them and the french made ones....

Andrew Hughes

12-22-2016, 9:37 PM

Id feel weird if the teacher says now take out your #50 rasp and I had something else.
I have both rasps they don't cut as fast when they were new but they still work.

Aj

Tony Wilkins

12-22-2016, 9:50 PM

Liogier makes handstitched versions of the #50 and #49. $83 each for them and Noel makes good stuff.

Patrick Chase

12-22-2016, 9:56 PM

Some company called Corradis.....Know a fellow that is doing a comparison test between them and the french made ones....

Corradi is a very well-known Italian file manufacturer. If their needle files (sold in the US as "Grobet USA") are any indication then the rasps are probably quite good but not at the very top tier with Auriou/Liogier.

lowell holmes

12-22-2016, 11:12 PM

You will eventually wind up getting a good rasp and then the $50 rasp is wasted and in my case useless.
I ended up with an Ariou rasp. I could have saved $50.

Derek Cohen

12-22-2016, 11:44 PM

I know rasps are great tools, but I also understand most of their utility is in doing curves and shaping. I am not a real big fan of ball and claw feet, Queen Anne style furniture, etc, so I don't ever see a myself spending hours with a rasp. I imagine in the joinery class we will mainly be using it for fine tuning tenons, but I honestly don't know. That being said, money is always a concern. I would love to just go out and spend $130 on an Auriou rasp and not worry about it, but I can't justify that for the little bit I think would use a rasp.

Hi Adrian

I am also not a fan of B&C feet ... however I use rasps a lot. They are invaluable for shaping and fairing curves, tuning tenon cheeks (as you mentioned), carving ... You will find a use once you have a few.

There is value in getting something better than the Nicholsons. These do not have teeth to the edge of the blade, plus the teeth are machine formed, which means they leave a coarser surface owing to their uniformity.

I am not sure what the equivalent grain is to the Nicholson ... 11 or 12? I have Auriou, and they are still going strong after 10 - 12 years moderate use. If choosing just one, I would look at a 13 grain - coarse enough for cheeks and curves without leaving too rough a surface (the higher the grain the smoother the finish. I finish on a 15 grain. For smoother surfaces one can use files or scrapers).

Liogier is equivalent to the Auriou. I have used them and they are excellent. Both are pricey, but one (as a starter) in 13 grain may see you through.

I have no experience with the rasps from LV. I have the Japanese ones, but they are still very new and are not working smoothly - too sharp?

Regards from Perth

Derek

steven c newman

12-23-2016, 1:57 AM

Patrick Chase

12-23-2016, 3:32 AM

There is value in getting something better than the Nicholsons. These do not have teeth to the edge of the blade, plus the teeth are machine formed, which means they leave a coarser surface owing to their uniformity.

The Nicholsons use a semi-automated process wherein a machine forms the teeth, but the tooth locations are manually determined by an operator. Their teeth are nonuniformly spaced like "hand-stitched" rasps, and they don't have the usual roughness problems that stem from uniform rasp teeth.

The problems with recent Nicholsons (or at least mine) are that the shaping and quality of the individual teeth isn't as good as their competitors, and the face teeth sometimes "collide" with the side teeth. See Joel's post here (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/181/It%20should%20not%20be%20this%20hard%20-%20We%20Discontinue%20%20Nicholson%20Patternmaker' s%20Rasps%20Because%20of%20Quality%20Issues.) for pictorial examples. As noted earlier some other people like Pete Taran report good results from these rasps, so it appears that whatever problems they have aren't universal.

Stewie Simpson

12-23-2016, 4:05 AM

Adrian; your budget is too tight for me to recommend you a quality rasp. For something outside your current budget I would recommend the following with the Sapphire Coating. (I personally own and use this type of rasp with my own woodwork, and cant fault with its overall performance.) http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/saphir/rasps/luthier.html. imo your wasting your money by considering the Nicholson # 49 & #50. They are too aggressive for fine clearance work. All the best with your Joinery Course.

Stewie;

Patrick Chase

12-23-2016, 5:47 AM

Just read a review by a fellow that compared the French rasps to the Corradi Gold line rasps. Found no difference. Although the cost, counting the $40 S&H is still well under the french rasps. About ...$90 for one rasp delivered Fed EX in about 2-3 days travel time. They have found a way to use CNC to duplicate hand stitched rasps.

If you have a CNC stitcher then creating a randomized pattern is the easiest thing in the world. Just test a bunch of handmade rasps, pick one that you think cuts particularly well, capture its tooth profile, and use that to compute your CNC paths.

The thing to realize here is that you only need randomization *within each rasp*. It doesn't matter (and might be beneficial from a quality assurance perspective) if all of the rasps are identical to one another, so long as the toothing within each is irregular.

This is why I found it hysterically (and sadly) funny when Narex proudly announced that they had highly precise CNC stitching machines, and then used those machines to produce rasps with precisely uniform/regular toothing. If you're going to buy the machine then you might want to think at least a little bit about how to take advantage of its capabilities...

Stewie Simpson

12-23-2016, 6:31 AM

Personally I would rather support a manufacturer that still uses the traditional techniques of hand stitching a rasp.

Pat Barry

12-23-2016, 8:15 AM

I stumbled across this article - lots of great info:

https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/half-round-cabinet-rasps

Prashun Patel

12-23-2016, 8:32 AM

" I would love to just go out and spend $130 on an Auriou rasp and not worry about it, but I can't justify that for the little bit I think would use a rasp. "

Try these.

http://www.stewmac.com/SiteSearch/?search=dragon%20rasp

I have been using these for about 7 years. I want to try the Auriou's, but these have performed so well for so long, I just can justify it. I have a coarse and a fine (both large). They are pointed, flat on one side, and radiused on the other. These features make them extremely versatile for large and small work alike. If you are looking for only one , get the large coarse.

Phil Mueller

12-23-2016, 8:55 AM

Been looking to upgrade my files...nice lead, Prashun, thank you!

Prashun Patel

12-23-2016, 9:00 AM

I would also add that after some use, you might try getting your rasps professionally resharpened. I used Boggs a couple years ago. It's true, they came out even better than new, and (perhaps this is just perception) they have stayed sharper, longer. It was about $25 + shipping, I think. You might even contact them to see if they have refurbs they would sell.

Also, you may find this interesting. A lot of people rave about the Iwasaki products too. (Of course, Evil Lee Valley is having free shipping right now...)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?173548-Traditional-Rasps-vs-Dragon-Rasps-vs-Iwasaki-carving-files/page2

Adrian Ponik

12-23-2016, 1:17 PM

Thanks so much everyone for all the great feedback, I really appreciate it. Prashun, thanks for the link to John's videos, those helped immensely.

What I'm considering at this point is getting the inexpensive Lee Valley hand cut rasp and fine Iwasaki to go with it. Does that make sense or is it redundant? I know the Iwasaki's work better when you can use them like a draw file, which I think would be difficult to do if tuning tenons. Purchasing both would put me just barely over my $60 budget (given Evil Lee Valley's free shipping as Prashun said), but if having both wouldn't give me any advantage then I wouldn't bother. Thanks!

Prashun Patel

12-23-2016, 2:35 PM

"if tuning tenons..."

you might consider the plane-makers floats that LV sells. I have not tried these, but they may excel at keeping flat surfaces flat vis-a-vis longer rasps.

Simon MacGowen

12-23-2016, 9:37 PM

though I'd use a chisel (99% of the time) or skew block plane before either. Files, rasps, and floats have a nasty habit of creating convex cheeks if you're not *very* careful.

+1

When fine tuning tenon joinery, a chisel or a plane is always the preferred tool of choice.

The LVT hand-cut rasps remove bulk waste very quickly and are more suitable for sculptural work than joinery fitting. They are very good for what rasps are designed for.

Simon

Ron Kellison

12-24-2016, 1:37 AM

With respect to one of the earlier comments about the LV rasp, keep in mind that LV's cardinal rule is: If you don't like it they will take it back and probably refund your shipping costs as well!

I have an older Nicholson #49 rasp and two Auriou smaller model-makers rasps. Collectively, they are indispensable when shaping wood and fitting joints!

lowell holmes

12-24-2016, 10:04 AM

I have one that I use occasionally. It does a good job of finishing a surface. When you need it, you need it.
I would buy it again if necessary.

Mark Ortiz

12-25-2016, 8:57 PM

AJ,

I took the Marc Adams joinery class last summer (Aug. 2015). Marc does not like the new Nicholson rasps, so don't feel bad about not getting one of those. You will only use the rasp on a couple of joints during the class. You will be just fine with your decision to buy the Lee Valley rasps. If you keep traveling down this path, upgrade at a later time. You will stay BUSY in your class. Marc is a fabulous instructer, the classes are great, and the facility is top notch. You will have a blast! I am attending another class this year as well.

-Mark

steven c newman

12-25-2016, 9:49 PM

I merely was posting an option to be used. Whether made in France, or Made in Italy.....meh.....I have a drawer full of old black diamond rasps. I 'll keep using mine until they wear out.

BTW: The italian ones will NOT be getting a supplier here in the US. They feel it would cost the consumer way too much for a place like Woodcraft to sell them over here. They also offer a full line of other files.

Cliff Polubinsky

12-26-2016, 9:00 AM

A.J. ,

Also expect to spend at least 10 hours at your bench trying to keep up. And Marc keeps your first dovetail for the wall.

Cliff

Alan Lightstone

12-26-2016, 9:09 AM

I sprung for a number of Auriou rasps a few years ago. I don't make that much curved furniture, but they have been invaluable when I do, and they are very, very well made.

Pricey, no doubt, but clearly in another league compared with the Nicholson (along with the equally excellent Liogier rasps).

I am very happy I made the purchase.

Mike Dowell

12-26-2016, 11:52 AM

What's the rasp with the black plastic handle? $35ish range? My Father In Law got that, and loves it. He says it's every bit as nice as the Nicholson 49.

Patrick Chase

12-26-2016, 7:13 PM

You will eventually wind up getting a good rasp and then the $50 rasp is wasted and in my case useless.
I ended up with an Ariou rasp. I could have saved $50.

The thing with nice rasps is that you don't want to use them on any old questionable bit of wood, so having a decent-but-cheap[er] option at hand is nice. For example there's no reason to dull an Auriou putting recesses in doors for "shop" furniture. I used to use the Nicholsons for stuff like that, but finally gave up on them and upgraded to the LVs discussed in this thread (which are actually cheaper than the Nicholsons IIRC). I'm sure that the StewMac "Dragon" rasps that Prashun referenced would serve nicely as well, though they're a bit pricier.

Patrick Chase

12-26-2016, 7:34 PM

What's the rasp with the black plastic handle? $35ish range? My Father In Law got that, and loves it. He says it's every bit as nice as the Nicholson 49.

Sounds like Ajax rasps that LV sells that a bunch of people have referenced in this thread: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=20133&cat=1,42524. They're made in Czech Republic (not Pakistan as somebody else hypothesized).

This review compares them to a bunch of others including Auriou, Corradi, TFWW, and Liogier: https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/half-round-cabinet-rasps (the Ajax is pictured about 60% of the way down). Though the comparison isn't exactly apples-to-apples in terms of cut-# etc, the verdict is consistent with my experience: The Ajax rasps are fast and good for the money, but not as good as the expensive ones.

The machine-shaped Corradi rasps did pretty well in that review FWIW. As others have noted they're not so cost-effective when bought one at a time due to shipping, but they're a pretty decent bargain if you buy several.

Steve Hubbard

12-26-2016, 11:19 PM

Adrian,

As mentioned above, the rasp is not used much in Joinery I. When I took the class, about 2012, we used a file for fine tuning tenons. As I recall, the rasp was used only for the hip joint, or maybe that was in Joinery II. It is possible that new joints have been added to the class since 2012. Others who have taken the class more recently will be able to give you more info.

Marc told us about Boggs Tools. They sharpen files and rasps, and it is hard to believe what a difference it makes. I bought a couple of Nicholson rasps from them. As noted, the teeth may not be as consistent as in the past, and may not extend all the way to the edge as in the past, but after sharpening by Boggs, they really cut well. There are probably other companies that offer a similar sharpening service.

I own several Auriou rasps and they are wonderful, but if you just want a rasp for rapid removal of waste, it is hard to beat a Boggs sharpened Nicholson. If you want a smoother finish, something more expensive might be better.