First and last table saw

[Webb Dulin]

I'm looking to buy my first cabinet saw after getting by with a portable contractor saw for several years. I am on a budget but I want a quality saw that can last me the next 20 years. So far I've found the following three choices:

new 3hp Delta unisaw w/52in fence $2,450
new (floor model) 3hp Powermatic w/50in fence $2,700
new 3hp sawstop w/52in fence $2,999

I like the idea of the safety feature on the sawstop but obviously it comes at almost a $600 premium. I spent 3 years working on a cabinet saw in school that had neither the sawstop safety stop or even a riving knife so obviously it isn't a necessity if you take the proper precautions. What would you guys do? If anyone knows where I could find a better deal on that same sawstop I would love to go that route. Thanks

[Bruce Page]

I have a 3hp Unisaw I bought new in '98-'99. It has been a joy to use. That said, if I were shopping today, without question I would buy the SawStop.

[Rod Sheridan]

I would opt for the Sawstop if I were to buy a cabinet saw.

I agree that you can mitigate most of the dangers on a saw, however for $30 a year it would be prudent insurance, in addition it's a good quality saw.

I would opt however for the Hammer K3 saw, far safer and more capable than a cabinet saw.............Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

The Sawstop contains the hidden costs of the brakes. If you plan on doing dados on your table saw, you will have to change your brake also. In addition, every time it fires, it's $70 for a new brake and $x for a new blade. Mine has fired twice because I was careless in keeping my miter gauge clear of the blade.

I do like the riving knife and blade guard and find them convenient to use. The dust collection is pretty good on the sawstop.

[Roger Marty]

If the premium is only $600, I wouldn't hesitate to get the SawStop.

In fact I almost laid down that much cash for a SawStop. However I didn't know how committed I was to woodworking, and ended up starting out with the Home Depot R4512 hybrid saw for $500 (which I'm quite happy with). But if I had a dedicated shop and was committed, I wouldn't hesitate for a SawStop.

If SawStop offered something like the R4512 for $1600, I would immediately go buy one.

[Martin Wasner]

Find a used Northfield or Tannewitz. Northfields can be found in good condition for less than $1500 on the regular. You'll have a quality saw compared to the mediocre saws available.

[Ed Aumiller]

Recommend looking for an older Delta Unisaw or Powermatic 66... either one in decent shape will last another 25 years at least for a home shop...
A great place to buy one is either from school auctions or someone who buys them from school or government auctions...

I found out that most of the time it pays to buy older American made power tools (especially a tablesaw) than a newer one..

Plus price is more reasonable and you can use savings to buy more tools...

((and NO I do not sell tools))

[Robert Chapman]

Anyone who does not recommend the SawStop has never been to the Emergency Room after a table saw injury. The SawStop is not only a magnificent, quality saw it will keep you safe when you need it. That alone is more than worth the $600. IMO it is a no brainer.

[Mike Kees]

[QUOTE=Robert Chapman;2636106]Anyone who does not recommend the SawStop has never been to the Emergency Room after a table saw injury. The SawStop is not only a magnificent, quality saw it will keep you safe when you need it. That alone is more than worth the $600. IMO it is a no brainer.[/

[Mike Kees]

You are absolutely right Robert, I have never been to the emergency room after a table saw injury. And no I don't own and never will own a SawStop. I have two Unisaws in my shop and have been using them and contractor saws for about 35 years. I had the benefit of a great shop teacher who taught me how to use machinery correctly and safely. If I were ever to buy another saw the only thing different that I would buy would be a slider. I would follow Ed's advice to start, or save my pesos for a slider.

[John Lankers]

Try to find some info on sliders before you pull the trigger, here on SMC, YouTube, the web in general, Grizzly, Hammer, Felder, MiniMax...
As Rod has already said, they are safer and more capable than a cabinet saw.
If you don't want to go there be ready to order a regular and a dado cartridge as spare for the SS if that is your choice, which will add to the initial investment.
Politics aside, a SawStop can only protect from blade injuries if the feature has not been turned off and will never protect from kickback better than any other tablesaw, but a slider will because it'd be awkward standing in front of the blade and your hands should never be near the blade - period.

[mreza Salav]

Among the options you have listed Sawstop is a clear cut to me.
A slider is a different class of saw and they (quality ones) start at almost twice of your budget.
I wouldn't buy anything from Delta as their parts/service seems non-existence fro what I read/hear.

[John Sanford]

Of the three choices listed, I would go with the SawStop, in point of fact, I DID go with a SawStop 3hp PCS.

[Jerome Stanek]

Anyone who does not recommend the SawStop has never been to the Emergency Room after a table saw injury. The SawStop is not only a magnificent, quality saw it will keep you safe when you need it. That alone is more than worth the $600. IMO it is a no brainer.

I went to the emergency room for a table saw accident that a saw stop would not have avoided. It was a kick back that even a riving knife would not have avoided either. had to have 9 stitches in the palm

[glenn bradley]

After looking at Powermatic, Delta and other competing products I picked the Saw Stop regardless of the safety mechanism. You can certainly fire the safety mechanism by accident and that is a non-zero cost lesson. There is a bypass mode that allows you to test any questionable process to see if an activation will occur. This testing method was no help with my bonehead move of trying to saw some conductive (anti-static) UHMW material. However, I am much more aware now of what I am cutting and how ;-)

I am a Beisemeyer fan from way back but, have to say that the Saw Stop fence is quite nice. The ease of access to aligning or changing the fence faces is a far cry from ripping the faces off of a Beis. I run an Incra miter gauge with an aluminum fence, a cast iron tenon jig and all sorts of things without issue which I hear some folks express concerns about.

The overarm dust collection works but, is not super exciting. A larger air flow would be an improvement BUT, it is so easy to put on and off that I actually use it. I was definitely guilty of not fussing with some of the guards on previous saws as they were just a pain. Overall I am very happy and would buy one again in a heartbeat.

[Tom Trees]

I'm looking to buy my first cabinet saw after getting by with a portable contractor saw for several years. I am on a budget but I want a quality saw that can last me the next 20 years. So far I've found the following three choices:

new 3hp Delta unisaw w/52in fence $2,450
new (floor model) 3hp Powermatic w/50in fence $2,700
new 3hp sawstop w/52in fence $2,999

I like the idea of the safety feature on the sawstop but obviously it comes at almost a $600 premium. I spent 3 years working on a cabinet saw in school that had neither the sawstop safety stop or even a riving knife so obviously it isn't a necessity if you take the proper precautions. What would you guys do? If anyone knows where I could find a better deal on that same sawstop I would love to go that route. Thanks
Does your workshop and stock have as stable an environment as your school did ?
Are you going to be using similar timbers ?
I'm guessing by your comments, your trying to get an idea of how solid the sawstop is, compared to the others regardless of its safety features .
Anyway,with that kind of money I'd be looking for a used slider too, like Marius Hornbergers lovely Hammer saw on youtube .
Have you thought about a used unisaw to tie you over ?...
Maybe you could get a three phase one and install a VFD or swap the motor out and you would make your money back selling it as a single
phase machine ?
Good Luck Webb
Tom

[Brian W Smith]

Delta 14,RT 40

[John Lanciani]

Find a used Northfield or Tannewitz. Northfields can be found in good condition for less than $1500 on the regular. You'll have a quality saw compared to the mediocre saws available.


Delta 14,RT 40

Kind of ambitious recommendations for a guy in a home shop moving up from a contractors saw, no? For 99% of home shops a Uni or 66 is the top of the mountain, most folks don't have the ability to move, power, or maintain vintage 14" and larger table saws nor the need for them.

As for me, I agree with Rod, an entry level slider of European descent is head and shoulders above an American style cabinet saw.

[Martin Wasner]

Mmmmmkay.... The sub $1500 saws of better quality are ambitious, but the slider isn't? Gotcha. ;)

[Al Bacon]

Good Morning Webb

I am 76 years old and have owned 4 table saws in my life.
A Craftsman cabinet saw
A Craftsman 1.75 HP hybrid saw
A Grizzly Sliding Table saw
And after a very strange set of circumstances not of my own doing I now have a
3HP Sawstop with T-glide fence and mobile base

Today knowing what I know now I would forget about the first 2 saws. The first, not great and the second, not enough power.
The sliding table saw was a very good but has a learning curve without to much how-to documentation on line or in print. However if you are going to mainly build cabinets, it is the way to go,
The Sawstop, now in the shop has really impressed me. I WAS a never a Sawstop person until this one showed up. It was dead accurate out of the box, Nothing need tweaking. The mobile base is the cats behind, a few quick pumps and the saws 500+ lbs floats to its parking place like it weighed 25lbs.
I now love using this saw and consider the safety features a bonus.

So of the three saws you listed, if it were me (and its not), I would go with the Sawstop hands down.

[Ole Anderson]

If you are really on a budget, get a Grizzly and save the money for another major shop tool like a jointer or planer. I have had mine (a G1023) for 15 years and it is still running accurate and strong. The new ones come with a riving knife, as do all new table saws.

[Darcy Warner]

Most sliders are worthless for anything other than cutting up ply. The only ones I could stand in front of an use like a regular table saw were my Martin t75s. I have a holzher 1243 and a scmi w16 and while nice saws, they are virtually impossible and very awkward to try to use for ripping lumber. Plus they take up a ton of room.

[Ben Rivel]

First, last, only table saw purchase? I did that myself about a year ago. Researched the heck out of it and couldnt figure out a reason NOT to get a SawStop. Went with the 36" 3HP PCS with the ICS mobile base and overarm dust collection. Havent regretted it so far.

[Shawn Pixley]

Sawstop hands down

[James Zhu]

Most sliders are worthless for anything other than cutting up ply. The only ones I could stand in front of an use like a regular table saw were my Martin t75s. I have a holzher 1243 and a scmi w16 and while nice saws, they are virtually impossible and very awkward to try to use for ripping lumber. Plus they take up a ton of room.

There is no question Martin T75s is the best slider in the world. But I would not say most sliders are worthless for ripping lumber. With the proper technique and parallel fence, you can do perfect ripping on sliding table.

If the OP wants the last saw and on budget, I would strongly recommend a used slider. Saw stop does not help when kickback happens. Slider is much safer, cause you are not in the path of kickback which could be deadly.

James

[Jake Hillestad]

As someone that uses and maintains a pair of SawStops daily - I'd not have one in my personal shop. Use a "regular" cabinet saw in the way it is intended to be used and keep your head in the game and there shouldn't be any problem.

I'd be looking at old iron (very likely cheaper and arguably better quality), but if you're not the type to potentially refurb or replace parts that might be something you don't want to tackle. Wouldn't even consider a slider as previously mentioned.

[glenn bradley]

The great thing (and something to specifically remember) about online forums is that members get to give their opinions and speak from their experiences. One must watch closely for opinions free from specific experiences :D. Some people would use a router to brush their teeth if they could. Others use a RAS for every cut possible. There is a lot of good response here regarding the OP's price range and subject.

[Jim Becker]

Most sliders are worthless for anything other than cutting up ply.

That's a pretty subjective point of view. Personally, I'd not go back to a cabinet saw and most of my projects are made with solid stock. But true sliders are not for everyone and they do come with a learning curve. It's just a different way to work and for some of us, it's the right choice.

[Keith Hankins]

I'm a little biast but I'd go SS hands down. Safety feature alone. It's a quality saw. I bought mine several years ago and don't regret it one bit. Support is fantastic. What ever you get do a review here. We all love toys even if they are our neighbors :)

[Prashun Patel]

Webb, I am sure you know that this is like asking people which religion is the best.

"If anyone knows where I could find a better deal on that same sawstop I would love to go that route."

You will likely not find any discounts anywhere. you may find a used one on CL every once in a while, but the best you can hope for in a new SS is free giveaways like a blade or some accessory. You may also be able to avoid tax and or shipping in some cases. That's vendor and state specific.

If you can afford the difference, don't let that be the barrier to your purchase; the blade technology is worth $1mm to a consumer who appreciates it, and $0 to a person who does not. Both believe themselves to be 100% right. Decide which YOU are. Either way you choose, you will convince yourself like the rest of us, that you are 100% right.

[John Lanciani]

Mmmmmkay.... The sub $1500 saws of better quality are ambitious, but the slider isn't? Gotcha. ;)

So, in a home shop environment, what does a Tannewitz or Northfield do that a Uni or 66 doesn't? A slider is certainly ambitious, and definitely outside of the listed budget, but that is why I started the sentence with "For me...". A slider brings a whole new approach to woodworking, a Northfield or Tannewitz or RT40 without a slider is just a big heavy cabinet saw that is way overkill for the vast majority of woodworkers not running it for shift work in a production environment.

[Martin Wasner]

So, in a home shop environment, what does a Tannewitz or Northfield do that a Uni or 66 doesn't? A slider is certainly ambitious, and definitely outside of the listed budget, but that is why I started the sentence with "For me...". A slider brings a whole new approach to woodworking, a Northfield or Tannewitz or RT40 without a slider is just a big heavy cabinet saw that is way overkill for the vast majority of woodworkers not running it for shift work in a production environment.


Runs and operates very smoothly compared to the rattle traps the powermatic, delta, and sawstop produce(d). They're a bunch of cheap parts in a cheap box. He wants to spend big money on a mediocre product, why, when he can get a whole lot more, for a whole lot less.

Mobility is out with a slider too so that's a null point

5hp is 5hp no matter what color paint is on it too. Most of those older saws are 5hp direct drive.

I've got two powermatic 66's, a uni saw in the shop, and a Tannewitz sitting in storage. The one powermatic isn't horrible, but it's nothing remotely great. I can't wait to dump the delta and the other 66. Foolish purchases I made when I didn't know any better.

[David Kumm]

You can get a slider and high quality with old.349838349839349840349841 The Rockwell 12 is actually a slider too. Just removed it as it isn't the best design in the world. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

You can get a #4 with a rolling top. I was bidding on one on an online auction that was pretty rough looking, but it sold for something stupid like $650. If it went cheaper, I would've bought it, but I'm running out of favors when it comes to stashing equipment I don't currently have room for, in other people's places.

[William Fretwell]

Years before SS came along I bought a General after looking at Powermatic. The castings are seasoned outside in Quebec for 2 years (that's serious seasoning!) before machining. Mine has 3hp which is mostly adequate. With the current exchange rate it must be a bargain now! It's repeatable accuracy is wonderful. I built a slightly larger table that lets you use the whole fence, the one they give you does not (weird!). They may give you a riving knife now, mine is attached to the guard. When SS came along it looked impressive but had a small table and fence. Kick backs are the most common safety issues, NEVER reach behind the blade, use push sticks and keep your stock square to the blade you should be fine, Oops'.... thanks Norm, "wear safety glasses".

There are some people who should not use a table saw. If you know you are one of them buy a SS. One guy I know was so deep in concentration he sawed his longest finger in half lengthways to the knuckle before he realised what he had done. I told his wife about SS she went & bought one.

I read somewhere that the ER cost's for circular saw accidents are greater that the annual gross sales of table saws in North America!
Stupidity, lack of training, laziness and overloading the saw must account for a lot. No breakdown for cabinet saws.

[Webb Dulin]

Thank you all for the input. I believe I'm leaning towards SS for the safety feature and also it seems that most of you are generally happy with it from all aspects (quality, accuracy, customer service, etc.) To the people that are recommending sliders, I'm sure they are very safe and very useful to the right person but I have never used one and can't seem to even find that much info on purchasing one. Shop space is also very limited for me. No doubt the old American made heavy duty saws are quality machines but I do not have the time nor do I have the expertise to restore one to its original beauty. I think the SS will make me a very happy camper versus what I've been working with and $600 isn't that much over the lifetime of the saw I suppose.

[Gregory King]

Webb, I am sure you know that this is like asking people which religion is the best.

Prashun

Right on Prashun. Or ask who is the best NHL team? I know the SS have great safety reviews, but I have a 10" King table saw. [No relation to me by the way]. It came 24" wide when new. Added the 52" extension table with adjustable legs. Enclosed the splayed legs with an angle iron base so that I can move it around the shop. Although it is pretty much stationery. Ripped anything and everything I ever put thru it. Always kept a sharp Freud 40 tooth blade with a good linkbelt on it. Using proper push sticks. Have not yet replaced any arbor bearings after 22 years of work. I have approx. $1000.00 Cdn. in this saw. So my thought is whatever the OP's budget is will decide his purchase. Brand name or not. Greg

[Myk Rian]

Webb, I am sure you know that this is like asking people which religion is the best.

Which is why I have never asked a "What is best" question on here.

[Webb Dulin]

Now one more question before I take the plunge. As I said my shop space is limited so although I would love to have it, convince me why I NEED the 52" fence. Other than not being able to rip a saved piece of stock over 36", what will I really be missing?

[Ben Rivel]

Now one more question before I take the plunge. As I said my shop space is limited so although I would love to have it, convince me why I NEED the 52" fence. Other than not being able to rip a saved piece of stock over 36", what will I really be missing?From my research I found those that have a 52" rarely to never use it and those that have 36" find theyve only a handful of times felt they could have used more length. I went with the 36" and so far have never needed wider. It might help that I break down all sheet goods with a track saw, but yet I dont think that would make that big of a difference with respect to table saw length.

[Prashun Patel]

Funny you say this Ben. I just cut down my 36" rails to allow a max 24" cutting capacity. The only thing I occasionally miss is being able to slide the fence out of the way on a long cross cut. But I've learned to lift off, and to break down long stock off the table saw anyway.

[BOB OLINGER]

Of course if you were sure of no accidents, you could overlook the Sawstop. After 45+ years, i had a near accident on my contractors saw. As careful as i thought i was - that's why they're called accidents - so I bought a Sawstop and haven't looked back. So, that's my recommendation. Also, it's a very well built saw.

[Ben Rivel]

Funny you say this Ben. I just cut down my 36" rails to allow a max 24" cutting capacity. The only thing I occasionally miss is being able to slide the fence out of the way on a long cross cut. But I've learned to lift off, and to break down long stock off the table saw anyway.Wow thats wild. You are definitely the first I have heard of doing that! But hey, if you dont need the extra capacity its always nice to have more room in the shop!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Prashun, when I had a cabinet saw I cut the rails at the 32" mark, I think they were 52" originally.

It saved a lot of room and I never needed anything wider than that for the time I owned the saw.

Regards, Rod.

[Bruce Page]

Now one more question before I take the plunge. As I said my shop space is limited so although I would love to have it, convince me why I NEED the 52" fence. Other than not being able to rip a saved piece of stock over 36", what will I really be missing?

It is nice to have if you cut a lot of sheet stock. My Uni has 50" but I don't recall ever using all of it. It does give you a nice big table though. :cool:

[Jim Andrew]

The really long fence is great if you are cutting out plywood cabinet parts, for the least amount of waste.

[Brian Henderson]

You are absolutely right Robert, I have never been to the emergency room after a table saw injury. And no I don't own and never will own a SawStop. I have two Unisaws in my shop and have been using them and contractor saws for about 35 years. I had the benefit of a great shop teacher who taught me how to use machinery correctly and safely. If I were ever to buy another saw the only thing different that I would buy would be a slider. I would follow Ed's advice to start, or save my pesos for a slider.


Agreed. I find it funny that if you look at woodworking videos on YouTube, those who have Sawstops invariably take off all of te safety gear and often make really bad decisions in making cuts because they think the machine is going to save them from themselves and their own stupidity. If you get hurt on a tablesaw or most other woodworking machines, it isn't the machines fault, it's yours.

[Ben Rivel]

Agreed. I find it funny that if you look at woodworking videos on YouTube, those who have Sawstops invariably take off all of te safety gear and often make really bad decisions in making cuts because they think the machine is going to save them from themselves and their own stupidity. If you get hurt on a tablesaw or most other woodworking machines, it isn't the machines fault, it's yours.Huh, they usually say they do that to show the cuts better for the video and from all the many I have seen they always have at least the riving knife installed. I also dont think anyone believe the saw is going to save them from anything other than an accident involving blade to flesh contact. Pretty sure no one thinks a SawStop will protect from from a kick back due to its flesh detecting feature. Those of us that have them just like the added feature and prefer the higher quality fit and finish versus the competition. Simple as that. In addition however, many YouTubers get their saws given to them or deeply discounted from SawStop like Festool has done for years and like DeWalt is currently doing with all that FlexVolt battery powered line.

[Jeff Heath]

If you're stuck on a 10" cabinet saw, an older Powermatic 66, made in Tennessee, from the green era or older, is the very best built 10" cabinet saw ever made. I've restored a couple, and the stoutness of the inner cast iron castings, as well as the accuracy of the machining of all moving parts is better than any of the saws you've mentioned in your original post.

I will never understand the mentality of relying on a gadget to protect your body parts from the lack of engagement of your brain. Never, ever allow any of your hands anywhere near a table saw blade, a bandsaw blade, planer knives, jointer knives, shaper cutters, milling cutters, grinding wheels, and the list goes on and on and on...... I've been doing this for a living for 30 years now, and the worst thing I think anyone can ever get used to is to rely on a machine to save them from themselves. The table saw is not the only dangerous machine in a workshop, and none of the other machines are going to have a gadget to protect them from themselves. Learn proper shop safety, and protect yourself from all of your machines by engaging your brain while you are working near machinery.

My two current shop saws are a Powermatic 66 that is 100% restored and in perfect condition, and my 16" Whitney #77, from the early 1920's. The Powermatic is a nice saw, but it's 1/10th the saw that the Whitney is, and I paid $1000 for the Whitney.

[glenn bradley]

Ah, Saw Stop threads. . .

[Van Huskey]

First, be aware the three saws are not apples to apples, the Uni and PM 2000 are bigger heavier saws so just be aware of that, the SS ICS is the one most directly comparable in size and weight.

I would not consider the Uni due to Delta's unstable parts situation. The PM 2000 and PCS are a much closer battle for ME. I prefer the PM 2000 to the PCS and that is what I bought. There is not a new cabinet saw I would trade my PM 2000 for except a SS ICS. If I ever buy another cabinet saw it will be an ICS.

I'll bet $3.50 that the OP will buy a PCS and be very happy with it.

For me SS is not a "religious" question it is a machine that mitigates one danger in the shop and I feel each person should choose how they approach shop safety. Woodworking is probably the safest serious hobby I have and statistically by far the least likely to cause death. Buying a SS is simply part of a risk management assessment it is like hitting your "turn around time" 200 meters from the summit of a mountain do you go up or down? I've done both and I am still here, others have not been so lucky and I may not be the next time I decide to blow through my turn around time, just like I may sever my ulnar artery the next time I fire up my table saw.

The good thing about the SS saws is that they make saws equal to the best new saws in each of the classes they sell so you can take comfort in knowing you are getting a SOTA saw within the class if you choose to pay the premium for a SS. Quite frankly it is an easy recommendation. There are a lot of cars I would buy myself but wouldn't recommend to a friend or family member because I understand the the potential issues and may be willing to accept them but prefer to be safer telling others how to spend their money so I recommend Honda and Lexus almost exclusively when people ask.

[Mike Henderson]

Now one more question before I take the plunge. As I said my shop space is limited so although I would love to have it, convince me why I NEED the 52" fence. Other than not being able to rip a saved piece of stock over 36", what will I really be missing?
I have the 36" fence and it's worked fine for me. Only a couple of times I needed more but now I have a track saw so I can use that.

Mike

[P.S. Go with the SawStop. It a great saw AND it can save your hand. It did for me once. Mistakes happen.]

[ken carroll]

O.P., One thing you'll learn quickly, is that this place is Sawstop central.
Personally, I feel if you need a device like the SS to feel safe, then you should just take up a "safer" hobby. The SS is a well made Chinese table saw, functionally no better than a Grizzly 1023 at more than double the price. I have a 1952 Unisaw, and a 1946 Oliver both were way way cheaper than a SS. The tabletop on the oliver weighs more than the entire SS, so it is a serious machine to have to pick up and install in your shop, however I did so in my Toyota tacoma truck on my own so it is far from impossible. The payback of operating a solid cast iron lump like the Oliver over a SS is hard to explain but "you'll know it when you see it". Older saws like the Oliver have a true riving knofe and a shorty Euro fence both of which help eliminate kickback - a FAR more likely event than running a finger into the blade.

I have owned two PM66s over the years, and three Unisaws, both will do the job just fine for you. I also owned a G1023 as my first cabinet saw and it was a really good saw and fantastic value for money.

Buy an older U.S. made table saw or buy a Grizzly 1023. Sawstop would be well down the list for me, but it's your money......

[Jerry Wright]

This is why I always look for a 1949 Chevy when on the mood for anot her car. Heavy, no air bags, poor brakes, hard to find parts....perfect!

[Martin Wasner]

This is why I always look for a 1949 Chevy when on the mood for anot her car. Heavy, no air bags, poor brakes, hard to find parts....perfect!

Haha, horrible analogy.

[rudy de haas]

For me SS is not a "religious" question it is a machine that mitigates one danger in the shop and I feel each person should choose how they approach shop safety. Woodworking is probably the safest serious hobby I have and statistically by far the least likely to cause death. Buying a SS is simply part of a risk management assessment it is like hitting your "turn around time" 200 meters from the summit of a mountain do you go up or down? I've done both and I am still here, others have not been so lucky and I may not be the next time I decide to blow through my turn around time, just like I may sever my ulnar artery the next time I fire up my table saw.

The good thing about the SS saws is that they make saws equal to the best new saws in each of the classes they sell so you can take comfort in knowing you are getting a SOTA saw within the class if you choose to pay the premium for a SS. Quite frankly it is an easy recommendation. There are a lot of cars I would buy myself but wouldn't recommend to a friend or family member because I understand the the potential issues and may be willing to accept them but prefer to be safer telling others how to spend their money so I recommend Honda and Lexus almost exclusively when people ask.

I agree with some of this - specifically that saw stop is a risk management decision because the extra cost goes almost entirely for the safety features. This makes sense if, for example, you are running a high school shop where the insurance savings more than pay for the saw - but it doesn't make sense in a personal shop unless you don't trust yourself around power tools - in which case your wife should probably take all of them away.

Van Huskey, above, makes the comparison to cars you recommend for others. Every car I've bought since the mid 70s has been a Volvo wagon in part because higher end models offer much higher performance than people (including cops) imagine (my XC70 offers 325 HP), in part because they're great for long distance driving, and in part because the biggest threat on the road doesn't come from my hands on the wheel but from some idiot in some other vehicle about whom I have no knowledge and over which I have no control. The same logic applies to the table saw purchase: for personal use the sawstop is just a very expensive version of a mid range grizzly - but it's worth the extra money if you have to let others with unknown skills use it.

[jack duren]

The technology is in front of everyone. If you wish to ignore it, that is your choice. One shouldn't tell another or make a point of why they shouldn't invest or at least want the technology. If you've had a perfect record with never being hurt on a table saw, it certainly isn't anything to brag about. Tomorrow is another day and the risks are the same for everyone.

Be safe...........

[Van Huskey]

for personal use the sawstop is just a very expensive version of a mid range grizzly -

Not really...

[mreza Salav]

Here is one thing to consider when making your decision: there are plenty of people with 30+ (I've seen personally some with 40+) years experience on saws that have cut a digit or two. You'll find many who have bought a SS AFTER they had a nasty accident despite thinking it would never happen to them because they use their brain. They are all part of statistics. Here is another fact: as far as it is known, nobody has lost a digit on a SS. The price difference is peanuts when you think about the long term risk/advantage. It is like paying extra for having a car in which nobody has died in (yet, and event if it happens the odds are still waaaaay better) in case an accident happens. SS is a very well engineered and built saw.

[Chris Hachet]

O.P., One thing you'll learn quickly, is that this place is Sawstop central.
Personally, I feel if you need a device like the SS to feel safe, then you should just take up a "safer" hobby. The SS is a well made Chinese table saw, functionally no better than a Grizzly 1023 at more than double the price. I have a 1952 Unisaw, and a 1946 Oliver both were way way cheaper than a SS. The tabletop on the oliver weighs more than the entire SS, so it is a serious machine to have to pick up and install in your shop, however I did so in my Toyota tacoma truck on my own so it is far from impossible. The payback of operating a solid cast iron lump like the Oliver over a SS is hard to explain but "you'll know it when you see it". Older saws like the Oliver have a true riving knofe and a shorty Euro fence both of which help eliminate kickback - a FAR more likely event than running a finger into the blade.

I have owned two PM66s over the years, and three Unisaws, both will do the job just fine for you. I also owned a G1023 as my first cabinet saw and it was a really good saw and fantastic value for money.

Buy an older U.S. made table saw or buy a Grizzly 1023. Sawstop would be well down the list for me, but it's your money......This is starting to be my thinking. I do much of my sawing by hand and have been running a cheaper Taiwanese saw (older Craftsman with an Incra fence) for a decade.

I do not run the saw if I am tired or distracted, and pretty much only use it for parallel ripping of parts.

G1023 would be the difference of upgrading or not upgrading.

Does anyone have a good source for an older Powermatic 66 or the like...All of the ones in see for sale are beaten to death and seemingly overpriced...

[Chris Hachet]

Here is one thing to consider when making your decision: there are plenty of people with 30+ (I've seen personally some with 40+) years experience on saws that have cut a digit or two. You'll find many who have bought a SS AFTER they had a nasty accident despite thinking it would never happen to them because they use their brain. They are all part of statistics. Here is another fact: as far as it is known, nobody has lost a digit on a SS. The price difference is peanuts when you think about the long term risk/advantage. It is like paying extra for having a car in which nobody has died in (yet, and event if it happens the odds are still waaaaay better) in case an accident happens. SS is a very well engineered and built saw.

They are a sweet saw, we have two at work.

[jack duren]

They are a sweet saw, we have two at work.

The company bought one after a user at work went to pick up a board on the other side of the blade and got caught. He was wearing gloves. He received just a scratch as the saw was powering down after being turned off. The reason he claimed this happened??? He was use to the slider saw breaking after you turn it off. A none thinking accident as the Powermatic 12" table saw doesn't have a break.

[Brian Henderson]

This is starting to be my thinking. I do much of my sawing by hand and have been running a cheaper Taiwanese saw (older Craftsman with an Incra fence) for a decade.

I do not run the saw if I am tired or distracted, and pretty much only use it for parallel ripping of parts.

G1023 would be the difference of upgrading or not upgrading.

Does anyone have a good source for an older Powermatic 66 or the like...All of the ones in see for sale are beaten to death and seemingly overpriced...

Same here. I only use any tool if I am properly prepared to do so. I don't do anything unsafe. I use all of the guards and if I don't feel that there is an adequate safety margin in any cut, I don't make it. All of my jigs have their own integral guards. My fingers never come remotely close to the blade. I've been doing this for more than 35 years and I not only have all of my fingers and toes, I don't think I even have a permanent scar from a power tool.

That said, I would never buy a SS. Others can do whatever they want with their money, I see no point. It's an added expense for something that would never be useful to me, and frankly, after SS trying to force everyone to buy their technology when they started, I have a significant beef with the company anyhow.

If you can find a good PM66, get it. I have one, they are wonderful and will last you for a lifetime.

[johnny means]

O.P., One thing you'll learn quickly, is that this place is Sawstop central.
Personally, I feel if you need a device like the SS to feel safe, then you should just take up a "safer" hobby.

That's one silly statement.

[David Ragan]

First off, let me say that I have never felt cocky about safety where power equipment is concerned.

Those who think they can control all the variables should talk to their local ER physician/Plastics/Orthopedic surgeon.

(My family is trained that if they come down and power equipment is running, to hit the purposed strobe light upon arrival in the shop so there is no startle factor.)

Another for SS.

I have blown a few brakes. All from being careless w jigs, etc. I keep an extra regular replacement brake on the shelf, along w the dado one.

today, I put on Very Super Cool fence system.....after getting it set up, I checked the alignment of my blade; it has been a couple of years since I dragged out all that calibration stuff. I was glad to see that it was still perfectly straight; am not sure about other's experiences w saws staying aligned-but I like to think it's because of quality.

I was never happy w the fence, could never get it to be 100% aligned, even fiddling w the backer bolts on the face-so now it's in a closet.

[Don Bullock]

Thank you all for the input. I believe I'm leaning towards SS for the safety feature and also it seems that most of you are generally happy with it from all aspects (quality, accuracy, customer service, etc.) To the people that are recommending sliders, I'm sure they are very safe and very useful to the right person but I have never used one and can't seem to even find that much info on purchasing one. Shop space is also very limited for me. No doubt the old American made heavy duty saws are quality machines but I do not have the time nor do I have the expertise to restore one to its original beauty. I think the SS will make me a very happy camper versus what I've been working with and $600 isn't that much over the lifetime of the saw I suppose.

In my opinion this is a wise choice. I have the original ICS and love it. The quality and avcuracy is outstanding. I've been very happy with my choice. My wife was happy with the choice too which helped.

If possible shop around for a dealer who will throw in some extras. My dealer fully set up and tuned the saw and delivered it to my workshop with no extra cost. The delivery alone saved me quite a bit.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Now one more question before I take the plunge. As I said my shop space is limited so although I would love to have it, convince me why I NEED the 52" fence. Other than not being able to rip a saved piece of stock over 36", what will I really be missing?

IMHO the minimum width from saw to fence you need is the half of the standard panel width. In my country it is 80 cm (31.5 inches) or 24 inches in the USA. Of course, more is better... but I guess you will not need anything above that most of the time.

I wish you a good decision for your needs.

[Mike Dowell]

I was torn between the SS and Powermatic a while back. I went with the Powermatic PM2000. With a quality blade(mine is from carbide processors), it is the smoothest cutting experience you can imagine. No matter what type of stock I'm using, it seems to just float through the blade.

[george wilson]

I bought a Saw Stop for the Tool Maker's Shop,where I retired from in 2009. We had had a 1050's or 60's Delta Unisaw. I have a Clausing 10" saw myself,which I bought new in 1963. I bought the Saw Stop because I had a new apprentice who had never worked wood before,or used such machinery.

Of the3,I prefer my own Clausing. Twice as heavy as the Unisaw. The simple but effective fence never moves when I lock it,and I can put any blade I want on it down to 6" diameter special blades that are .023 kerf,and made for cutting fret slots for guitars. Drawback: The Clausing has a 3/4" arbor. Back in the 60's,saw blades always had a knock out bushing for 3/4" arbors,but do not now. I am also a machinist,and keep a small boring head pre set to put into my vertical mill,just to enlarge the holes of new blades. A pita when dealing with dado sets,though!!

What I DON'T LIKE about the Saw Stop is that it will ONLY accept (and start up) when using blades that are the same diameter and fit into the brake system. You can only use THEIR dado head,and for that,you HAVE to buy their special brake pad for the dado head. At that time those brake pads were about $85.00,and a blade that was instantly stopped by the pad is RUINED!!! So,about $185.00 every time something trips the brake pad.

A friend of mine has an architectural model shop. His Saw Stop has gone off MANY times. We think it is because they saw mirror coated plexiglass,which has aluminum film on the back for mirrors. The brake system DOES NOT tolerate cutting metal of ANY KIND.

Personally,I found just getting the Saw Stop set up to take a cut was a lot of trouble. But,I did not use it many times before I retired. You have to adjust the brake pad to be a certain distance from the teeth of the blade. There is a little difference in the diameter of 10" saw blades. Probably less variation in aw Stop blade diameter. But,what happens when you get a blade re sharpened?

Ther Saw Stop machine itself seemed beautifully made,with a more accurately flat table grind than either the Delta,and possibly the Clausing,too. This has never been a problem for me,though. I didn't appreciate the 60º standard threads on the arbor compared to the stronger Acme type threads on the Clausing or the Delta. But,I suppose the cheaper threads won't wear out in a LOOOOONG time.

The primary isue is the safety of the Saw Stop,of course. If I had a commercial shop where employees would be running the table saw,I suppose I'd HAVE to opt for the Saw Stop to save myself from ruinous lawsuit. That's the way it is today.

[Robin Frierson]

"You can only use THEIR dado head,"

I wasn't aware you had to use the SS dado head. How much does that run. I didnt see it on their website?

[glenn bradley]

"You can only use THEIR dado head,"

I wasn't aware you had to use the SS dado head. How much does that run. I didnt see it on their website?

This is not correct. Their is a different brake for the dado of course, it is made for an 8" stack. I run a CMT, a couple of Freuds and a DeWalt stack. All interchangeable without any adjustment. The throat plate gets cut at the widest / deepest point like any ZCI-type insert. I often use a sled for dado's so the throat plate is out. I also change between a half a dozen 10" blades with the standard cartridge and do not have to make adjustments.

Using a Saw Stop for cutting conductive material is rather foolish since you would have to manually override the safety feature for each cut or just keep replacing brakes and blades. I fired the brake by cutting (unknowingly, but remarkably clear after the fact) anti-static UHMW material that was conductive. Hitting the random nail or staple in the wood will not necessarily trigger the system. If the metal is also touching you or has a conductive path to you (or something that has the general qualities of a "you" :)) the system will fire.

[Frank Pratt]

What setup trouble? It takes maybe 20 or 30 seconds to set the brake clearance. I have blades that vary in diameter a little, but the saw works fine for all of them. The clearance between the brake & blade is not that critical; between 1/16" & 1/8". So, i guess after many sharpenings you'd have to adjust the clearance.

And cutting something conductive without using bypass mode is just plain dumb. I know, cause I did it myself cutting a board with some graphite cloth glued to it.



Personally,I found just getting the Saw Stop set up to take a cut was a lot of trouble. But,I did not use it many times before I retired. You have to adjust the brake pad to be a certain distance from the teeth of the blade. There is a little difference in the diameter of 10" saw blades. Probably less variation in aw Stop blade diameter. But,what happens when you get a blade re sharpened?

[Simon MacGowen]

What setup trouble? It takes maybe 20 or 30 seconds to set the brake clearance. I have blades that vary in diameter a little, but the saw works fine for all of them. The clearance between the brake & blade is not that critical; between 1/16" & 1/8". So, i guess after many sharpenings you'd have to adjust the clearance.

And cutting something conductive without using bypass mode is just plain dumb. I know, cause I did it myself cutting a board with some graphite cloth glued to it.

I own a SawStop and have used different models of SawStop for over 8 years. I do not know what set-up problems are being referred to. If there are any, could it be because the experience of using the SawStop is limited?

In terms of cabinet saws, SawStop is second to none no matter how you cut it. You can find it in most shops owned by serious furniture makers and woodworkers. If you do woodworking for a living, you are doing yourself and your family a service by getting a SawStop. If you are a hobbyist, you are doing yourself and your family a service, too, for using SawStop. Period.

Simon

[Mike Henderson]

I switch blades and never had a problem with the SawStop working. Don't even think about adjusting the brake when I change a blade.

Mike

[Ben Rivel]

I switch blades and never had a problem with the SawStop working. Don't even think about adjusting the brake when I change a blade.

MikeYep, same here. I own only Forrest Blades and never have to adjust the brake to blade distance adjustment except when I switch over to the dado setup. Then I usually have to.

[John Sanford]

Does anyone have a good source for an older Powermatic 66 or the like...All of the ones in see for sale are beaten to death and seemingly overpriced...

A newer (8 years old) 5hp PM 66 is available "near" me, (down in Northern AZ/Southern Utah), for $950.

http://www.ksl.com/classifieds/listing/42761965

[Martin Wasner]

Sawstop has become a religion around here. It is truly bizarre

[Larry Frank]

SawStop is not a religion but just a choice. The ICS is a very solid machine and IMHO as solid as any currently made table saw.

If you want a Sawstop just buy one. If you do not want one, then buy something else. If you want to rebuild old iron..OK. The bottom line is to get something that cuts accurately and for each person cuts safely.

I think these threads about Sawstop and the eternal, infernal debate just bring up the same old things. It is like Rebublicans and Democrats, Chevy and Ford, old versus new plane materials. You are not going to change anyone's mind...not worth arguing about.

[glenn bradley]

Sawstop has become a religion around here. It is truly bizarre

I often hold back even entering a SS discussion for just this reason. The mere mention of the brand guarantees an additional dozen posts much like Festool.

I do kick-in though when misinformation is stated about any tool I am aware of. All of us should do that ;-) I have been corrected now and again and I appreciate it.

[Brian Henderson]

SawStop is not a religion but just a choice.

Except it's not. Every time a thread pops up about table saws, you have the SawStop apologists out in force. Even if someone says they cannot afford an expensive table saw, the SawStop apologists push them to spend more money than they want to on their Holy Tool. People might think it's a great tool and that's fine, but when it's the only one they're pushing, especially when it is inappropriate to push it, that's a different matter.

[lee cox]

I think you can't go wrong with any of the above choices. First and Last, really? Only if you are old. Personally I bought a used Unisaw because of the deal I found on craigslist. I would have been happy with any of them. But I may be the exception because I was not going to buy new.

My saw blade is .001 out and my fence is .005 out the full length of the miter slot. The Unisaw fence was bowed but I fixed it with a piece of Baltic birch. I am quite happy with my table saw. I am only a hobbyist but it works for me.

[mike wacker]

Any thoughts on the Shop Fox or the Steelex saws?

[scott spencer]

Any thoughts on the Shop Fox or the Steelex saws?

AFAIK Shop Fox, Grizzly, and Steelex are all owned by Shiraz Balolia (Woodstock Intl). I was unaware that they had any saws under the Steelex name, but in many cases Shop Fox and Grizzly saws are very similar. The W1819 is comparable to the G0690, W1824 ~ G0715P. SF offers dealer support and longer warranty, whereas Grizzly is a direct importer. SF usually costs more, but not always. I've had a W1877 (same as the G1023SL) since 2008, and it's been a great saw.

[Ken Higginbotham]

I may buy a ss, I was looking the 3 hp pro at woodcraft, the wheels turn like butter. But will probably disable the blade thing until my grandson starts using it. Sounds like every-time you put a different kind of stock in it you have to worry about it firing off. I'll eventually teach my gs the best prevention to getting hurt is to be careful and pay attention...

[Van Huskey]

But will probably disable the blade thing until my grandson starts using it. Sounds like every-time you put a different kind of stock in it you have to worry about it firing off. I'll eventually teach my gs the best prevention to getting hurt is to be careful and pay attention...

You can't disable the brake long term, you have to disable it each time you turn the saw on, if you plan to do that a SS isn't for you, you will pour gas on it and light it on fire pretty quickly. The issues of false triggers seems magnified by the internet most of the people I know who have had them for 5-10 years haven't fired the brake at all, some have once and a couple 2 times. Trips due to wood are a small part of the total number, the vast majority of them seem to be as a result of touching metal like the edge of a Incra miter gauge.

[Bob Murphy]

I was interested when reading George's mention of his Clausing table saw. I also bought my Clausing new and have been using it for 56 years without incident. I agree the 3/4'' arbor can, at times, be a problem but drilling the arbor out or using a 1'' arbor blade with a 1'' to 3/4'' bushing also works.

The above having been said, I have considered getting a Sawstop saw mainly because I'm getting a little older, 73 yo, and I believe it would be easier to resell. Still contemplating though.

[mike wacker]

Thanks Scott,

Chevy, Ford, Dodge etc. Just moved from Maine to Minnesota and sold my Powermatic gear rather than move it. PM66, PJ884, etc. Setting up a new shop here in MN. Advanced hobby shop if you will. Bought all the Powermatic stuff off Craigslist back in ME. Haven't found the same deals here so thinking new stuff. Seems I can go Grizzly/Shop Fox/Steelex for not much more money than used Powermatic/Delta. The Grizzly 1023RLWX looks like the best bang for the buck that fits my needs. Shorts rails (32 inch) with Router table and 5 hp. for $1600 after shipping. I'll have to put a roller base under it, but that trivial.

[Martin Wasner]

Mike, in Minnesota Craigslist is usually decent.

Hoff auctions has a cabinetshop on there every few months. Auction masters, and k-bid are two others that pop up.

Tried And True tools in Fridley has a Powermatic model 66 tablesaw for sale, but I think they're asking too much.

I don't know if non-customers can access it, but HDL has a classified section in their flyer every month, sometimes there's decent stuff in there too.

[Martin Wasner]

If you're thinking new, you can get Cantek from, Advantage Machinery. Talk to Mike Shemon. I've got a salesman at Acme Tools too that would take good care of you who also sells Cantek

[Darcy Warner]

I have bought from Hoff before.

Still looking for my 1970's T71.

[Ken Higginbotham]

You can't disable the brake long term, you have to disable it each time you turn the saw on, if you plan to do that a SS isn't for you, you will pour gas on it and light it on fire pretty quickly. The issues of false triggers seems magnified by the internet most of the people I know who have had them for 5-10 years haven't fired the brake at all, some have once and a couple 2 times. Trips due to wood are a small part of the total number, the vast majority of them seem to be as a result of touching metal like the edge of a Incra miter gauge.

Hum... Ok. No plan to disable then. But I do want it when the little guy starts using one. I have a couple years before then, maybe the cost will come down or there may be other options by then. Thanks for the input. Do you use one?

[Craig Shewmake]

Right on Prashun. Or ask who is the best NHL team?
[/COLOR]

Not even close as we all know the Kings are. :)