In addition to pie baking, this is about bread baking

[Tony Zona]

We have another thread going on pie baking. I didn't know we had this much expertise here on baking. This is about bread baking.

I would like to eat more whole wheat bread, but most of it tastes like cardboard. My wife found one good one at Wegman's market, but I would like it still more moist.

Does anybody have a recipe or directions on how to make whole wheat with a consistency and moistness closer to the white bread that is not so good for us?

Make no mistake, I stumble around in the kitchen, but I will pass along any info to my wife, the kitchen chief.

[Ryan Mooney]

I would say its more about technique than a specific recipe. I can wholeheartedly recommend a couple of books by Peter Reinhart, they really explained both what and why better than anything else I've read on the subject.

https://www.amazon.com/Peter-Reinharts-Whole-Grain-Breads/dp/1580087590

The whole wheat sandwich bread recipe in this book is really close to a white bread result (considering its still whole wheat :D)
https://www.amazon.com/Bread-Bakers-Apprentice-Mastering-Extraordinary/dp/1580082688

For a moister bread you will want to go to a more heavily "enriched" loaf, that is more fat, milk and other things like that that retain moisture.

[Tony Zona]

Thanks. I will check out these. :)

[roger wiegand]

Blending in some (20%) high protein white flour will help a lot, a 100% whole wheat bread is really hard. You can also add pure gluten, which will improve the crumb. (you can mail order it from the King Arthur store). They also sell a powdered milk for baking that gives dramatically better results than fresh milk, for reasons that are not clear to me.

Get their catalog-- it is the equivalent of Lee Valley for bakers!

[terry mccammon]

Adding some honey to the proofing liquid makes a big difference as well.

[Shawn Pixley]

We have another thread going on pie baking. I didn't know we had this much expertise here on baking. This is about bread baking.

I would like to eat more whole wheat bread, but most of it tastes like cardboard. My wife found one good one at Wegman's market, but I would like it still more moist.

Does anybody have a recipe or directions on how to make whole wheat with a consistency and moistness closer to the white bread that is not so good for us?

Make no mistake, I stumble around in the kitchen, but I will pass along any info to my wife, the kitchen chief.

You mention three items to address:

texture - make more like white bread
taste - more taste
texture / moisture - more moist & texture (unclear what you are looking for here)

unfortunately, addressing one of these factors may affect the others. Better flour and the Possible addition of seeds / etc will enhance the taste. But it will move further away from white bread texture. Pay attention to your flours (gluten content, grind/mill, moisture) and be prepared to try several (including mixing several types) to get the taste you seek. Disclaimer - I really dislike white bread and especially the texture so I actively move away from that. Texture is a product of the ingredients and how you work the dough (generation of gluten).

Moisture can be a product of the mixture and /or the baking. Assuming you are not overbaking, I have seen people add Honey or oil. I often use beer yeast (liquid with a small bit of wort) rather than the often stale yeast in the store. If you use the store yeast, start it the day before

I should note that I do it all by hand - no mixer, no bread machine, and a carefully proof (many whole wheat breads take longer to properly proof). I am Neander in bread making.

[Mark Blatter]

A couple of thoughts. Whole wheat bread will always be heavier, more density, than white bread. White flour has so much removed that it cannot help but be lighter. That is what kids in 60s & 70s, on up to today, wanted because it is like eating cotton candy. I started baking my own bread about 12 years ago for two reasons. First I wanted a healthier option, meaning I also wanted to know exactly what was in my bread, and two, I was nostalgic for a better bread. My mother made whole wheat bread when I was kid. My parents owned a health food store for about three years and they sold fresh baked bread every day.

I use a basic recipe that I made some changes to that I really like. Not a light bread by any stretch, but I think it is pretty good. Since I eat most of it, I only have myself to please. Happy to share it when I get home tonight. As mentioned prior, I add gluten to my bread. I also add milk which the original recipe did not call for. I have used both fresh milk and powered and don't see much difference between them. Adding milk does improve things a bit.

A second consideration is the type of wheat being used. I started off using a hard red winter wheat, but switched to a hard white winter wheat. It is supposed to give a lighter bread.

[Pat Barry]

PBS used to have a show featuring Brother Dominic. At least that's what i remember his name to be. I loved watching his show every week. Very good looking bread. I wonder if old You Tube versions of his show can be found.

[Ryan Mooney]

A second consideration is the type of wheat being used. I started off using a hard red winter wheat, but switched to a hard white winter wheat. It is supposed to give a lighter bread.

Good point hard white has substantially less bran and a milder flavor. Although that tends to slide into the grinding your own and ... its a slippery slope :rolleyes:

I can do baguettes with hard white (mostly get ours from "Montana Milling" via the local healthfood store in 50lb bags) but never could with hard red (even though the latter has higher protein content the bran context made it difficult to get a good smooth texture). Enriched sandwich loaves are about as ~close~ to white as you can get. I still sift though and then use the siftings for pancakes :)

I haven't actually seen many commercial flours that describe the wheat source? (although I'll admit to not having looked in a long time as well).

[Chuck Pickering]

I ventured into bread making, trying to duplicate the Italian bread my x-wife made. Haven't succeeded yet. I do make a decent white bread, but cannot duplicate the crispy crusted Italian I crave. Anyone have a good basic recipe for Italian bread?

Chuck

[Gary Cunningham]

King Arthur whole wheat flower has a good recipe on the bag.

[Tony Zona]

From Shawn:

You mention three items to address:
texture - make more like white bread
taste - more taste
texture / moisture - more moist & texture (unclear what you are looking for here)


Clarifying Shawn's points:

texture - not really like white bread. Maybe something a little smoother just not the course store-bought stuff.
taste - looking for a taste like bread, maybe toward the yeasty, even. Just not like cardboard.
texture/moisture - again, it probably is more a texture consideration. Back to that cardboard thing.

You folks are offeribg a lot here. Thanks. We'll have a lot of homework after the holidays.

Today was pizzelle-making day. It smells like anise around her. None of those vanilla ones for us. :D

[Ryan Mooney]

cannot duplicate the crispy crusted Italian I crave.

Again I'm not all that on recipes when it comes to bread (more like that deaf, dumb, and blind kid... never could play pinball though).. but for a crispy crust you need heat and lots of it. One trick that works some is take a heavy cookie sheet (not one of your good ones cause this will warp the heck out of it) put one rack on the top shelf with that on it, heat the whole oven to 500F and when you slid the bread onto the stones toss a cup of water onto the cookie sheet and slam the door shut. The water will flash into steam which is MUCH more efficient at transmitting heat than air and will really put what for onto that crust.

Having the gluten fully formed also helps. If you're half as lazy as I am a lot of kneading doesn't sound very attractive so make up a really loose dough (more a sponge) with only ~1/4 of the yeast in it and stick in the fridge for a day or two (two is better). An hour or so before you're ready pull it out, add the rest of the yeast (bloomed in a bit of warm water of course) and just enough flour to make a really loose dough (is it so soft its hard to handle? Perfect). Instead of kneading heavily, just fold it a few dozen times.

For stones I use either saltillo tiles, or slightly more robust unglazed quarry tiles. I've been meaning to get a sheet of 3/8" A36 low carbon steel (less apt to warp at high heat reportedly...) which I reckon won't break :) but haven't gotten around to it.

[roger wiegand]

Flavor improves with fermentation time. I raise my pizza dough for 3-4 days in the fridge, it gives time for the various bacteria and wild yeasts in the mix to do their thing. Keeping some as a starter rather than going back to pure commercial yeast each time also helps. It takes a village of different buggies to make tasty bread :)

[Shawn Pixley]

From Shawn:

You mention three items to address:
texture - make more like white bread
taste - more taste
texture / moisture - more moist & texture (unclear what you are looking for here)


Clarifying Shawn's points:

texture - not really like white bread. Maybe something a little smoother just not the course store-bought stuff.
taste - looking for a taste like bread, maybe toward the yeasty, even. Just not like cardboard.
texture/moisture - again, it probably is more a texture consideration. Back to that cardboard thing.

You folks are offeribg a lot here. Thanks. We'll have a lot of homework after the holidays.

Today was pizzelle-making day. It smells like anise around her. None of those vanilla ones for us. :D

Tony,

This is very helpful. Taking my beer making experience and a bit of scientific method, I suggest you work onthe texture first. Find what you like and how to get it, and then tackle the other elements. You'll learn a lot this way.

Yeasts are not all the same. Some take higher or lower temperatures to ferment the wheat sugars. Some wheat sugars are not effectively digested by some yeasts. Most don't start their yeasts early enough. People who are looking for the small crumb and light texture experience in their whole wheat bread use both traditional bread flour and whole wheat flour anywhere in proporations of 1:1 to 1:4. Admittedly, most do not use different yeasts. First try the two flours, then try different yeasts to find what you are looking for. Write it all down with commentary, so you can keep what works and change what is less successful. Due to beermaking, I can go on and on about yeasts.

After you get the texture to your liking (you probably will have addressed the moisture as well), then add adjunct ingredients to develop the taste you are looking for. As others have said, steam, oils/egg coatings and temperature will address crust issues (loaf size and shape also matter here). The adjunct ingredients will have some impact on theprevious work, so you may need to adjust a bit.

[Mark Blatter]

Here is the recipe I use most of the time. As you look at my notes, you will see I use molasses instead of sugar or honey, as it gives a flavor more to my liking. I also add vanilla most of the time, but I do forget it at times. Not sure if it makes much difference.

I like Ryan's suggestion for adding a bit of steam to the mix to improve the crust. I started off wiping butter onto the top crust when the loaves came out of the oven, but found that mold started growing much quicker. By not adding the butter topping, I get at least three more days before mold becomes visible.

If others are going to eat the bread I bake, I will put in two cups of white flour as it gives a better texture. I also add 1 - 2 cups of oats simply to add more and different nutrients plus it adds visually to the outside of the bread.

349833

[Michael Weber]

I baked bread as a hobby for years. If you try a whole wheat bread don't use a course stone ground flour. You will get a brick instead of a loaf. I have experience with this:mad:. It can be an interesting and frustrating experience. There are dozens of variables a home baker simply cannot control and you're working with a living organism whose response depends on those variables. Anyway I found for flavorful bread with a great crust and crumb it pays to use one of the slow rise (slower the better) methods and a high hydration dough. Flour, water, yeast and salt are all you need to make a great artisanal bread.

I no longer bake so we have settled on Natures Own 12 grain bread. Don't know if it's all whole wheat or partial but it's tasty, moist, has a lighter texture and lots of different seeds and grains in it. It was the choice of the folks at Americas Test Kitchen as best of its kind.