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John Shuk
10-09-2005, 3:39 PM
It looks like It's time for a new computer for me. The question is do I go Mac or PC. My current system is an HP with Pentium4. I Paid alot for it at the time and I have never been that happy with it. I just don't think It has been that reliable. I'm also running windows ME which I've never cared for but I'm too lazy and cheap to upgrade. This thing just always has some sort of issue. I'm told that Mac is more stable but it is a bit more expensive than I wanted to spend. I plan on buying a Dell if I buy PC because I think they have the best support. I don't really play games. I don't do spreadsheets or powerpoint stuff. I would like to burn cds once in a while and check out Sawmillcreek. I know there will be no shortage of opinions. I want to hear them all.
Thanks,
John

Joe Pelonio
10-09-2005, 4:21 PM
I have at the shop here 4 pc's, and 4 at home. Have found HP to be a pain, unreliable and weak support. Dell is much more reliable and support is better as long as you can understand the accents from their staff overseas. The Mac is strongest in the graphics area, especially video stuff and animation, but for what you are doing you'll get more help from creekers and others by sticking to PC.

John Shuk
10-09-2005, 4:48 PM
That's pretty much what I'm thinking of as a plus for PC. The Macs sure are sleek and nice looking though.

Jim Becker
10-09-2005, 6:01 PM
Yes! Both a Windows PC or a MAC PC are good choices... :)

Seriously, for me it would come down to software that I currently own. Very few packages allow for a license transfer between the platforms, even if you have the correct media in-hand. So, for me, it will be Windows continuing into the future for my main machine. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't consider a MAC for another machine or for when I buy one for the girls to use "someday"...I really like the OS-X technology and where Apple has brought their product line in the past few years. I have no problem switching between either from a "user" standpoint...both interfaces are comfortable to me.

Ken Garlock
10-09-2005, 6:53 PM
John, I am not sure what you mean by unreliable :confused: If you mean the system hangs up too much, that is most likely due to Windows ME. Windows ME is the biggest pile of bovine excrement ever foisted off on the unsuspecting public. :mad:

If your hardware is OK, then get a copy of Windows XP home edition. It is relatively cheap (less than $100) and certainly cheaper than a complete system. LOML runs it on an ancient IBM 450 Mhz system with no problem. The main thing is to keep your system up to date with the latest MS patches. :cool:

Jim Becker
10-09-2005, 6:57 PM
Putting XP on the older machine, as long as it's some form of Pentium, is a reasonable option, but be sure to kick up the memory a lot as it requires substantially more RAM to function efficiently. Otherwise, the system will be "swapping" between RAM and the hard drive constantly, even with tuning, and that can be really frustrating. 512mb is the minimum I'd recommend for XP with a gig being preferred.

Charlie Velasquez
10-09-2005, 9:06 PM
We have both Windows XP and Mac OS10.4 platforms in our house.

Prior to getting the Dell Inspiron laptop our house was strictly Mac.

5 years ago I would have staunchly advocated macs for their reliability.
Running MacOS 8.6 on a Mac clone, I went two years without a crash.
No crashes yet with MacOS X (FireFox beta version froze a couple of times, but forced quit, no system crash)
From what I see now XP seems to be as stable. We have had it for 6 months and nothing to complain about... with a caveat -
My son downloaded some mp3's on the XP machine. Since then it has been getting slower and slower. Did a scan with AdAware and SpyDoctor...
We had 47 adware and spybot programs. Spyware, adware, viruses were never part of my Macintosh vocabulary, now it is. We purchased a program to clean these and got all but one... that one we are quaratining.
But I have lost all confidence in the XP machine. I have instructed my wife to make all online purchases on the Mac only, just don't trust the Dell anymore.

Mike Cutler
10-09-2005, 9:28 PM
Allright. I'll play the Mac Addict for this thread, even though I do have a Dell with XP that I like alot.

Why go with a Mac? A case can be made for graphics, but unless you are a serious graphics artist there are a multitude of programs for Windows that are just great.
A Mac can be set up as a pretty good gaming station, but most of the hacks and cheats are written for a PC so you might still find yourself at a disadvantage.
It's still alot easier to copy a DVD on my PC than on my Mac's. Cd's are a wash, but iTunes will tilt the board toward Mac, imho.
Photoshop is Photoshop, works great on both platforms.
The argument of lack of peripherals for the Mac is largely a thing of the past.
The Mac supports all current communication standards. Although the Airport system is a bit of a disappointment, best to go with Netgear, or linksys for wireless throught the house, and shop.
The Mac offers stability, it just plain works. If you are not the kind of person that likes to play with computers, you just want to turn it on and go, than Mac is great.
I have two versions of OSX, Jaquar, and Panther, both are very stable, and I have had no crashes or lockups in over three years. My last lock up was on a G3 powerbook with 9.1.
One more compelling thing about a Mac, is security. Most of the little dirtballs that are writing malicious code are targeting the PC platform so they can get the biggest bang for the buck so to speak, and leave the Mac's alone. No viruses, no worms. Spyware,Adware and datamining are significantlly reduced, almost nonexistent.

I have a 17" Powerbook, with Jaquar. A Dual 2.0 gHZ G5, with Panther, and a Dell 8100 with XP. All communicate and get along with each other on a shared wireless Lan.

John Miliunas
10-09-2005, 11:31 PM
OK, I'm from the WinTel camp. Mainly, because that's what I've mostly used, fixed, configured and the majority of the machines I support are. That doesn't mean Mac is bad, but I just prefer the overall latitude on the Windows side. :) As for the hacks and general Window attacking dirtballs, I have no argument. Way too many of them, with little/no end in sight. BUT, a little history is also due here. Back in the early days of personal computers, Apple was the big dog. Were hackers nailing stuff put out by Mr. Bill & company? Nope. They nailed Apple and they did it in a big way. Systems would get totally devastated by some of those hacks!:mad: Where am I going with this? Simple. If the Mac side would ever get close to the popularity and come up even or surpass the WinTel side, I guarantee you, we'd be seeing the same thing on that side of the O/S wars! So, for now, the Macs are "safer", although I firmly believe that, if hacks wanted to start blowing them apart they could. As for as stability, I should hope the Mac systems are stable. Especially seeing as to how you can NOT put their O/S on anything other than a Mac!:rolleyes: I won't go into the politically incorrect arguments of monopolies, etc.... I guess I would just like to have the choice of what type of machine I'll be putting an operating system on to! Regardless of my opinion(s), though, either are a pretty good choice today and Dell is indeed probably one of the more reliable outfits to work with.

Peter Stahl
10-10-2005, 6:19 AM
John,

I'll have to agree with Ken on this one. Windows ME is/was a dog of a operating system. I had Windows 98 on my machine when I got it and it too was pretty bad but no where near the problems tha ME had and ME replaced 98. Windows XP Home should run fine on you Pentium 4 with at least 512 mb ram, 1 mb would be better. I mainly use mine for surfing the web, downloading pick from my camera and working with MS Office. I upgraded to Window 2000 Pro and it made a big difference. As far as the Mac goes, it was my first real PC at work but the company went the PC route so now I use only Windows PC's

Leo Hill
10-10-2005, 2:42 PM
I jumped on the computer bandwagon back in the Altair 8088 days. I know, that really dates me!

IMO, forget all the rest of the "stuff" - software and brand reliability etc. Ask yourself a very simple question - and write the answer on a piece of paper.

What do I use a computer for?

List all the things that you do on the computer and assign a percentage of time that you use the computer for that task.

Email - web surfing - word processing - project drafting - graphics design etc. etc. etc. Be sure to get to 100% of time used. If two or more people use the same computer, break the percentages down for each person.

Then ask yourself if there is anything different that you want to do with a new computer that you aren't right now?

I'd be willing to bet a dollar to a doughnut that unless you're making a major change in careers, there won't be to much you'd do differently with a new computer.

Now that you have your lists - what do they tell you?

Well, in my mind it's not as clear cut as it was just a couple of years ago, but if your primary use - the one with the highest percentage on your list - of the computer is graphics or artistic oriented, i.e., your create original computer artwork, brochures, logos, or creat/edit movies and/or animation, then your choice is a MAC.

But if your highest percentage of use is surfin' the web and doing email - then there is no reason to abandon the WinTel PC.

Four points.

1) Visit Spywareinfo (http://spywareinfo.com) and take the time to educate yourself about all the various manifestations of malware that are out there. As Charlie found out, one of the primary transmittal agents of malware is from music downloads. But there are lots of FREE or very inexpensive programs out there to protect yourself from this crap. On a weekly basis I run a (about) half-dozen programs to detect and clean all sorts of malware off. Recently I've been wondering if the programs have been working as I haven't detected any issues for many many months. But I went to a web site the other day that attemped to install a nasty and two different programs caught it! So they are working.

When you're done at spywareinfo, check out and their AVG anti-virus program (http://www.grisoft.com/doc/1). I just let lapse my Norton AV program and bought the AVG and their firewall for both computers - LOML and mine. Two licenses for two years for $80 - that's $20/yr for each box - anti-virus and firewall too.

2) Windows XP. The latest version is the most stable operating system that I've seen from MS since I started using their MS-DOS oh so many centuries ago. Well, it seems that long anyway :eek: If you're using an older version of Windoze, then spend the energy, time and money to get the latest release of XP. The easiest way is to either get a new box or a new hard drive - they are so cheap! - and do a fresh install on the HD or the new box will come with it already installed.

2a) Stop using MS Internet Explorer - try FireFox (http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/central.html) and I doubt whether you will go back (except for those specific web sites that are coded exclusively for IE) Also get rid of MS Outlook. Try Thunderbird (http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/) from the same Mozilla folks.

3) Dell. Love-em or hate-em - they are arguably the best WinTel box available on a mass produced scale for an affordable price. If you're a computer savvy individual, read the following. If you're not then skip it all as you'll just get confused!

The secret I've found is to go to their web site and DO NOT go to the home/HO section - rather go into the commercial section (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/workstations?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz) and specify the components you want in the box there. You can't order from the commercial side, (unless you're a business) but you can then print out the specs. Once you're done on the commercial side, mosey on over to the home/HO side and see if there is a box that comes close to what you wanted and spec'd on the commercial side. Most likely you'll find that there is not because of the bundled software and some other (IMO) less desirable options. But you can call their 800 number and talk to a representative and tell them exactly what you want - the one from the commercial side. And don't let the phone rep try to load your box up with doo-dad software and other extraneous stuff that (IMO) doesn't belong on a computer - things like fancy music software and AOL are but two examples.

Oh, I forgot to mention the Dell refurb section (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=22&l=en&s=dfh). I bought my latest box there after doing the above. I found a box with 95% of what I wanted for about 56% of the new price. YMMV

4) Consider a local computer store. The little mom-n-pop place that has been there for a number of years. The do repair and build boxes. Maybe they don't have the latest gee-whiz components, but IME these folks generally build good machines as they don't want the hassles and costs of returns. This one goes strictly on reputation - ask for and do call references.

Finally, regardless of what choices you make that meets your individual needs, always, always and always keep your software up to date with the latest patches and in the case of AV - the latest virus definitions. Run a firewall regardless of what sort of internet access you have. Never trust any website to NOT have malware just waiting to invade. DO NOT open any attachment from someone that you don't know. Always arrange ahead of time with someone that you will send an attachment or receive an attachment. Even though you know the folks, ALWAYS scan any attachment with your AV software.

And finally - finally - always protect yourself as no one else will - no, not even the big ISP's and other access providers.

Best,

Leo

Jim Becker
10-10-2005, 3:07 PM
Leo, I largely agree with much of what you wrote. However, the delta between WindowsXP and MAC for graphics application usage, is pretty much gone these days. The same software runs pretty much equally well. You also cannot discount the value of software licenses that you already own (and use, obviously). For many folks that is minimal, but for others...it's significant.

Leo Hill
10-10-2005, 5:04 PM
Leo, I largely agree with much of what you wrote. However, the delta between WindowsXP and MAC for graphics application usage, is pretty much gone these days. The same software runs pretty much equally well. You also cannot discount the value of software licenses that you already own (and use, obviously). For many folks that is minimal, but for others...it's significant.

Unfortunately I don't agree that "the same software runs pretty much equally well." There are programs for a PC that are not offered in a MAC version - and vice-versa. So there is a choice that must be made.

One example I use every week is AutoCAD by Autodesk. Sure, there are CAD programs for the MAC, but are they as widely supported as AutoCAD? I dunno - but I do know that I can exchange AC files with my colleagues in Germany, Japan and the UK with ease. Would it be just as easy using a MAC CAD program to a PC CAD program? - Again, dunno.

Regardless, I've watched graphical "magic" performed and created on a MAC with seeming ease. It's not as graceful on a PC - though it can be done. And I agree that the difference between the two platforms is getting smaller with each new software release.

As for existing software - though I did not specifically mention it, it seems obvious that unless you are changing your computer use focus (as outlined in my earlier post), you would be able to transfer that software to the new box.

Best,

Leo

Jim Becker
10-10-2005, 5:14 PM
Sorry, Leo, I meant to say the "same application" running pretty much as well on either platform. You are correct there are some things that shine best on one or the other! :)

As far as transfering existing software to a new machine, yes you can do that in most cases as long as it's the same OS family. Not so between Windows and MAC. Macromedia, for example, ships both versions of their applications on the same CDROM media, but once you register on your platform, you cannot re-license without rebuying (at full price) for the alternative OS. That really does affect some people's choice as the software investment is considerably more than the PC it's going to run on, whether Windows-based or MAC or Linux, or whatever. That was the only point I was trying to reinforce and it is consistant with your suggestion about asking yourself "how do I use the computer".

Tim Morton
10-10-2005, 7:03 PM
OK...let me preface this by saying that I have been using macs since well...forever. Long before most of you owned a computer maybe :D

I think that for most people a mac would be the better choice, and for those who primarily web surf and use it as a home computer....I think that 99% of people would be better served with a mac. My main reason for saying this is that in the 12 years i have used a mac online I have NEVER done a single thing to protect against a virus....and I have never had one single down minute on my computer due to somethign that got installed just by me opening an email or clicking on a link. How many of you can say you have had 12 DAYS with that same experience? :D

It just cracks me up to hear all my friends and family complain about spyware and virus's....its no secret that they are hard to deal with....so unless you LIKE the challenge....go for a mac....they are SO much easier to use....and fun to boot....throw in an iPod and you are on your way.

Yes everyone says the same thing...macs are great for grahics but pc's are better for everythign else...that is such an old argument....

grab a mac mini and a 17" flat screen from tiger direct or whoever has the best deal on monitors and i PROMISE you won't regret it.

PM me with any questions and i would be thrilled to help you switch.

JayStPeter
10-10-2005, 7:55 PM
I think your experience is not typical because you have a combination of ME and HP. My MIL has an HP that has been less than reliable. Win ME was a short lived piece of junk that MS should be providing free upgrades to those that have the misfortune of owning it. A new XP machine (preferably Dell) will do you well.


OK...let me preface this by saying that I have been using macs since well...forever. Long before most of you owned a computer maybe :D


Tim,
Not me. I graduated high school the year the Mac was released and already owned 2 computers (Apple II and early IBM PC). :cool: Judging by the average age and profession here, you might be in trouble with that statement :D .

I did own a Mac for a little while, but it fell out of use as it wasn't compatible with work. Some of the companies I've worked for have also either paid for or supplied software for home computers, but they had to be PC based for compatibility. My current job involves Linux programming, but the company is still PC based for its office apps. So, I have 2 machines at work and dual boot at home.

Jay

Tim Morton
10-10-2005, 9:21 PM
I think your experience is not typical because you have a combination of ME and HP. My MIL has an HP that has been less than reliable. Win ME was a short lived piece of junk that MS should be providing free upgrades to those that have the misfortune of owning it. A new XP machine (preferably Dell) will do you well.



Tim,
Not me. I graduated high school the year the Mac was released and already owned 2 computers (Apple II and early IBM PC). :cool: Judging by the average age and profession here, you might be in trouble with that statement :D .

I did own a Mac for a little while, but it fell out of use as it wasn't compatible with work. Some of the companies I've worked for have also either paid for or supplied software for home computers, but they had to be PC based for compatibility. My current job involves Linux programming, but the company is still PC based for its office apps. So, I have 2 machines at work and dual boot at home.

Jay


Sorry Jay, but i was using an Apple Lisa....while you were still in junior high
:D 1981....while in the navy as a PHAN....I had the privilage to be roomates with a guy who bought the apple Lisa....I do not remember much about it other than the tiny screen and the cool logo....but that computer sold me on macs for life....WELL before I got into graphics work...

Dan Mages
10-11-2005, 9:29 AM
I've had no problems with my HP AMD Turion 64 bit laptop. It has been very stable and wakes from sleep mode almost instantaniously. Things have made a good turn around at HP since Carly Fiorina got her a__ kicked to the curb.

The first big problem I see if that you are running Windows ME, or Windows Many Errors. Go spend $100 and get yourself a copy of Windows XP Professional, back up all of your important documents, wipe the drive, and start from scratch. Hopefully, that will eliminate any problems that you are currently experiencing.

If it doesn't solve your problems, it may be time for a new machine. Dell makes the best systems, hands down. Their only weakness is their sole supplier strategy with Intel. AMD makes a much more power chip than Intel, especially with the new 64 bit Athlon, Opteron, and Turion chip lines. Those will guarantee you high performance when MS releases Windows Vista next year (darn slick system!!). The best systems around with AMD chips are sadly the HPs, unless you want to put down $2000 on an Acer Farrari laptop.

Two cents... plink plink

Good Luck!!

Chip Charnley
10-13-2005, 12:06 PM
I'm with those that have been using computers since the 70's. Don't go quite back to the Altair days although I was looking at them I couldn't afford one being just out of high school. My first computer was an Exidy Sorceror which, if you know what it was, you know how that dates me.

I have spent the last 20 years doing infrastructure for desktops (mostly wintel but I started with Xenix/UNIX)

Anyway, I agree with most of what has been said by both camps here. The strongest agreement though is with the person that said list your uses along with % of use. Combine that with software owned, and the decision becomes pretty easy.

Assuming you end up deciding Wintel, Dell does generally have the best deals. And, in addition, whoever said you can't order from the commercial web site is in error, sort of. Just put something in to identify you hobby as a business. Something like Joe's Wood Shop. In my case, my wife was writing romance novels on the side so I simply used, Susan Charnley, author.

In any event, to find some of the best Dell deals, go to www.edealinfo.com (http://www.edealinfo.com). This site is updated every day with all kinds of electronics/computer buy deals (and other things). I happen to know that Dell has a direct deal with this site and uses it to promote their clearance type sales. They don't always have Dell deals listed but they usually do at least 1 day a week and many things on each day's lists are good for many days. But I ramble. If you are looking for a good wintel computer deal and you don't need absolute state of the art, look to edealinfo.

Last comment. If you are into computer gaming, your only real choice is WINTEL. The best computer games simply are not available for MAC 98% of the time.

Ed Lang
10-13-2005, 1:30 PM
You guys make me feel OLD!

First computer was a Ohio Scientific with 4K RAM and ran a Motorolla 6502 at a couple of mhz. Later upgraded to a tape storage and it took 20 mins to load BASCI if I didn't get a checksum error! Later the 8" floppy was added and BASIC could be loaded in under three seconds! Also upgraded RAM to 8K

Then the Apple II and two 5.25" drives and 40 col. video

Now, I run Dell's at work and home. I do support mac's at work but would not want one at home. Just me, they are fine.

I even paid Dell the $69 for three year no fault for the machine in the shop. You never know when something just might wack the LCD monitor or someting worse!

Joe Pelonio
10-13-2005, 4:51 PM
If you want to feel younger, I too used an Apple Lisa, it was an upgrade from a "fat mac". Also at that time used the first version of IBM pc 64k
with one 5" floppy and before hard drives. I remember buying a 10 MB hard drive to add on that was about the size of a modern printer. Before that I had a custom made computer that used ms dos (before microsoft) and had two 8" floppy drives, each floppy held 720k. The pc and drives took up about 2' square on the desk was and 18" high. All it did was wordstar, some spreadsheet and programming in basic. Eventually got a modem, you put the phone handset into it. So, yeh, I was online for many years before the internet and many more before we had to worrry about any of the virus/spam/adware problems.

John Shuk
10-13-2005, 5:09 PM
I think that I'm decided on Mac. Software isn't an issue since I don't own a bunch that I couldn't replace easily. I simply don't want to deal with crashes and configuration errors. I also have young kids who sometimes run into the den and start clicking and moving stuff just to be naughty. It seems that Apple will handle this better for me as well. Maybe next week I'll do the deal.
Thanks for all the info.

Andrew Ault
10-13-2005, 6:17 PM
John,

Me too. My wife and I use XP and Linux right now, but when we need a new compuuter I think it will be a Mac.

Jo, Ed Chip et al,

I think I still have a punched paper tape somewhere with a program loader on it. All that new fangled video terminal and magnetic media stuff is fancy, but all I needed in 1976 was a Teletype terminal on a 110 baud modem to a timeshare with core memory (old iron but not cast iron). Well, we did upgrade to a Digital Decwriter, boy that was fast. Bzzzzzt!

Computers I miss: My old Apple II with Beagle Brothers stuff (Bert? Thanks, man.). My TI-59 programable calculator (magnetic strip read/writer built right in). My Kaypro 10 that my girlfriend "loaned" to her grad student friend...had Turbo Pascal on it and it was sweet. I miss Intergalactic Digital Research. I miss going to computer shows and selling little baggies of programs that I wrote. I miss soldering things from Byte magazine and sometimes getting them to work. I remember getting a FIVE MEGABYTE harddrive...then a TWENTY! MEGABYTE HD!...then an EIGHTY, I said EIGHTY MB drive...giddy with that endless space...

Anyway, yeah, the next one will have OSX. My wife is ex Bell Labs and she'll be happy to open a UNIX shell.

Mmmm. maybe I can run Wumpus on it...

- Andy

Dan Forman
10-13-2005, 6:37 PM
John---My one and only compiter has been a Mac, can't immagine swithching.

Consumer Reports gives Mac the nod for reliability and customer service. Their tech support is onshore, you won't have to struggle to try to understand what is being said to you in a heavy indian accent.

Others have mentioned lack of malicious code aimed at Macs.

You can still use Windows based software on a Mac via "Virtual PC for Mac"

Did I mention no malicious code?

The new Imacs are very sleek and tidy.

Dan

Leo Hill
10-14-2005, 6:41 AM
Geez - aren't we a bunch of pathetic old geezers sitting around talking about how early we got into the computer game. Punched tape indeed! You'd almost think that we are about to stumble over our 4-footed cane in the hallway of the convalescent home. ;):D;)

Leo

Andrew Ault
10-14-2005, 11:20 AM
Leo?

What?

Darn it, I had my hearing aid turned off.

:)

Phil Phelps
10-15-2005, 1:28 PM
I am far from a computer guru, but have two Mac's, G-3 and 4, because of my bidness. I catch no viruses. I think I can pass a virus, but I don't think there has ever been one found on a OSX. Software is limited compared to the PC games and such. I don't give a rat's for any. I have PC dinosaur I use for invoices and Quickbooks. I have found the peple at Mac assistance to be more helpful than PC customer assistance. I had Virtual PC installed on the G-3, but it crashed and I removed the program. I don't think it's worth every trying. That is the only problem I've ever had in nine years. They ARE more money, you can bank on it. Good luck in your choice.

John Shuk
10-16-2005, 8:11 PM
I should be picking up a 2.o Ghz G5 Imac with a 17 inch screen tommorrow. I went to the Apple store last night and they are running a sale. Since the new models are coming out the store stock is being sold at $300 off of each unit. I'd call that incentive since I was going to get it anyway!

Jim Becker
10-16-2005, 8:12 PM
Good deal, John. (If you can afford to go bigger on the screen...do so! ;) )

Tim Morton
10-17-2005, 7:24 PM
Good deal, John. (If you can afford to go bigger on the screen...do so! ;) )

we have a 20" iMac G5 at work....drool drool....but I have a 17" FP G4 iMac right here at home and I have never really needed a bigger screen for home use. That being said....the 20"..... drool.....drool....

Lee DeRaud
10-17-2005, 8:41 PM
Good deal, John. (If you can afford to go bigger on the screen...do so! ;) )As near as I can tell, 19" seems to be the limit for 1280x1024 LCDs: anything bigger is 1600x1200, and unless your eyes are a lot younger/better than mine, you'll need to tweak the GUI quite a bit to work comfortably at that resolution. I don't know exactly how that works on Macs, but it's not always a trivial process.

(For the 16:9 aspect ratio, I think the break-point is between 20-21" and 23"...dunno for sure, they're all out of my price range :eek: .)

John Shuk
10-17-2005, 8:49 PM
we have a 20" iMac G5 at work....drool drool....but I have a 17" FP G4 iMac right here at home and I have never really needed a bigger screen for home use. That being said....the 20"..... drool.....drool....
I got the 20" screen G5. Wifey saw it and said maybe the bigger screen is a better investment. Yeah, Yeah, whatever you say just give me the big guy. It is a nice machine. I'll have to set it up tommorow. I also got another $100 because my wife is a teacher and $50 off the extended care plan. If it weren't for my luck I'd pass on it but it is usually $169 and $50 off is a heckuva deal for cheap insurance. Pretty soon it'll be bye bye Windows!

Earl Kelly
10-18-2005, 8:23 AM
John, when I moved from OS 9 to OS X I found this site to be very helpful.

http://www.macosx.com

Just remember no computer is perfect backup your drive at least daily. I like the external firewire drives pretty cheap nowadays.

Christopher Stahl
10-24-2005, 12:24 AM
Your decision should be based on what your comfortable with. Plus the Mac/Wintel debate won't be much of a debate since Apple will be using Intel processors in the next year. Software will work on both for the most part. So it will be a Wintel/Mactel debate.

First, I'll say, don't buy Dell. It's junk and you'll regret it if you have to make a service call. I have a base of several thousand Dell's and they are junk. Not reliable and their service is just terrible. Or best workstations so far have been IBMs and HPs. IBM laptop and desktop were purchased by Lenovo, so who knows what will happen there.

I don't need to list what computers I've used or grew up with and I've been a programmer for a long time. I'm 31 and had my first computer when I was 3 and was hooked from day 1. While I prefer to use a Unix/Linux workstation, I've never been a real fan of neither Windows nor Apple operating systems. I will say I have been pleasantly surprised with Apple since they've based their OS on debian in Mac OS X. It's very stable and a very usable machine for me. I think you'll find the Mac will be more fun to use. Apple tends to be gimmicky and colorful which attracts people. With that in mind, if you really don't have a preference, I would probably go with a Mac especially if you have kids. You'll find most schools purchase Macs.

I never thought I would say this, but I now have 3 iMac G4s with the 17" LCDs and they've been great workstations. I've also shutdown my other PCs running linux. My wife is a school teacher and they use Macs in school so I have a couple around the house. So I've been quite happy with them and we can both do our work on them.

They provide the best of both worlds, an easy to use computer for your everyday users, and all the capabilities for power users like myself and many others here.

my $.02,
chris

Keel McDonald
10-24-2005, 7:08 AM
IMHO, Macs are TERRIBLE!!!!!!!! Go with a Dell PC. I use both a PC and a Mac at work. I rarely ever have any issues with PCs, and if I do, it's an easy fix. The Macs have always been a pain to work with for me. Just my opinion.

Jim Becker
10-24-2005, 8:36 AM
Your decision should be based on what your comfortable with. Plus the Mac/Wintel debate won't be much of a debate since Apple will be using Intel processors in the next year. Software will work on both for the most part.

According to Apple in my trade magazines, this is not the case. It will still be a closed system and you will not be able to run MAC OS on anything other than a MAC. They are switching to Intel for a number of reasons, but being compatible with Windows machines is not one of them.

Jeff Sudmeier
10-24-2005, 9:05 AM
From what I have read, for the time being MAC and PC will be separate. Some feel that over time MAC will become just an OS, like Linux, Linspire and windows. I am hoping that Linspire and the MAC OS become more prominent to start and share with windows.

John Miliunas
10-24-2005, 9:14 AM
According to Apple in my trade magazines, this is not the case. It will still be a closed system and you will not be able to run MAC OS on anything other than a MAC. They are switching to Intel for a number of reasons, but being compatible with Windows machines is not one of them.

Ditto to what Jim says. The last I heard, OS-x will still be totally proprietary to MAC's, period. That said, there are obvious advantages. The operating system does NOT have to be as flexible or even forgiving, because it's designed around the hardware. By the same token, that's like saying if you buy a Ford vehicle, you have to put Citgo gas in it or it won't run!:mad: That kind of propriety I wouldn't want to have!

BTW Chris, and with all due respect, I work at a major university and, with thousands of support and academic staff, as well as students, the latest stats show Wintel machines command no less than 85% of the desktops, with approx. 10% going to MAC and the remainder going to the Unix/Linux/Sun users. :) As for which flavor is in our "other" schools (K-12), I also think that goes primarily by area. In the two school districts in which we've lived over the last 20 years or so, Wintel machines are the preferred form factor. :) :cool:

Jim Becker
10-24-2005, 9:29 AM
Most school districts in this area have very few MACs at this point.

Jeff Sudmeier
10-24-2005, 9:45 AM
Our school districs used to be very MAC based, but that is no longer the case. THere are VERY few MACs in the schools, most of them are personal machines owned by the teachers.

Christopher Stahl
10-24-2005, 10:24 AM
John,
I don't dispute that Wintel has a command on the desktop or your numbers. That wasn't my intention at all. I also work at a major university and I don't know the percentage of hardware or OS's. Although, if I had to guess, I believe Wintel probably has a slightly less impact than where you are.

I probably jumped the gun on the statement about k-12s using Macs. Around here, Macs are what the schools use. I will say that I'm happy about that. The kids have better opportunities to learn how to use computers because it doesn't have to be point and click.

My statement about Wintel/Mactel wasn't pointing at the software will necessarily work on both, but the fact it will be easier for software publishers to write code for both. They will both use x86 microcode to function instead of Apple's use of the RISC processor. You'll find more software coming out for Macs than ever before. Although, the first batch of Mactel boxes was in fact able to run Windows XP. I'm sure that's only temporary. :)

chris

John Miliunas
10-24-2005, 10:38 AM
Hey Chris,

Yeah, I had heard that the MAC boxes were indeed running Windows, but in the end, that does not appear to be where it's going to go. Though multiple form factors being able to accept both, the Windows and MAC side o/s would be cool, I also see that as a logistical nightmare! Like I said before, that's where MAC has found a niche and therefore, their systems do indeed appear to be more stable. Why not? Specific software for a specific O/S, which in turn, is run on specific hardware! It don't get much better than that!:)

Guess time will tell as to what the eventual software apps will be like. Sadly, too many apps originally for either O/S don't do nearly as good a job on the counterpart O/S when ported over. For instance, PS Pro still works better on a MAC, where Office is still nicer on the Windows side. Yup, should be interesting to see....:) :cool:

Christopher Stahl
10-24-2005, 11:21 AM
This is where Apple may have made a good decision. The code may not need to be ported, but some simple changes within the code to make it work. Maybe....I don't know. I'd think the advantages of one software working better on one OS over the other will probably disappear over time. Maybe the prices of Macs will also drop since they seem to ask for a premium.

I'm not some huge Mac fan, but I would rather have my users running a Mac over a Windows any day. :)

In the end, it could be that we buy a PC and decide what to put on it. It's close to that now, but in the future it may be reality.

It would be cool to have an AMD Mac box. :)

Jeff Sudmeier
10-24-2005, 11:42 AM
Yeah that is too bad that apps don't work as well on a new O/S as on the O/S they were written on, but it is also kind of good as well. Keeps the competition open and hopefully keeps everyon working harder for better products.

(Hey a guy can dream right?!?! :))

Lee DeRaud
10-24-2005, 12:09 PM
I probably jumped the gun on the statement about k-12s using Macs. Around here, Macs are what the schools use. I will say that I'm happy about that. The kids have better opportunities to learn how to use computers because it doesn't have to be point and click.Huh? I realize Mac's OS is Unix-based, but is there much need/opportunity to use a command-line interface in the Mac GUI?


My statement about Wintel/Mactel wasn't pointing at the software will necessarily work on both, but the fact it will be easier for software publishers to write code for both. They will both use x86 microcode to function instead of Apple's use of the RISC processor.Well, nno, not really. Conversion from one instruction set to another (e.g. PowerPC to x86) is totally trivial, except possibly for low-level math functions that care about big/little endian issues.

Conversion from one OS/GUI to another, on the other hand, is a massive pain. I've never programmed for MacOS, but I've converted a ton of code between Windows and X11/Motif, in both directions. You have to deal with different widgets, different event-handling strategies, and different task/thread management protocols. These are things that tend to get embedded in the low-level program architecture: that structure ends up getting rewritten (more-or-less from scratch) during the port.