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Cody Armstrong
12-17-2016, 7:49 PM
I'm questioning the way my sawyer is charging.

Through the years he's cut thousands of bdft for me of my personal logs I've brought to him and always charged me an hourly or bdft rate. He had red oak tree go down on his land and I offered to buy the lumber that came out of the three logs it made. All was quarter sawn 5/4. It had shake in a good bit of it and he adjusted for dimensions as it came out of the log. I agreed with most of his numbers although some where in his favor. I was present during all the sawing and pulled it off the mill as it was sawn. Backing up a bit I calculated bdft in the three logs using the Doyle scale which came to about 550 bdft before allocating for the shake. He guessed roughly 500 bdft also. The agreed on price was 4.50 bdft for green quarter sawn red oak. Today we finished sawing the third log. When calculating bdft for final tally he said that anything over 1" thick is treated as 2". So he essentially doubled the thickness from 5/4 to 8/4 and wanted to charge me as all the lumber being 8/4 thick rather than 5/4 thick. So his doubled calculations came out to 790 bdft =$3500.00 My question is why is he treating 5/4 as 8/4. Is this right? How do ya'll do it?

John K Jordan
12-17-2016, 11:20 PM
... he said that anything over 1" thick is treated as 2". So he essentially doubled the thickness from 5/4 to 8/4 and wanted to charge me as all the lumber being 8/4 thick rather than 5/4 thick. So his doubled calculations came out to 790 bdft =$3500.00 My question is why is he treating 5/4 as 8/4. Is this right? How do ya'll do it?

Cody,

I saw for personal use and don't saw for money (occasionally shares) but when I want to get board ft numbers to check mine or if I'm just lazy, I use the calculator on the WoodWeb. The board foot calculator is the second one down on this page: http://www.woodweb.com/Resources/RSCalculators.html
This calculator does NOT treat 5/4 as 8/4.

Perhaps things have changed but I think rounding up to the next inch is crazy. I have never heard of that.

I'd probably decline the whole load if that was still an option, especially with ring shake on some. (will other boards that look good now come apart when drying due to weakness not obvious?) I may be overly cautious but when I run into ring shake I make firewood.

The price for the green lumber sounds high to start with, but admittedly, I don't know what the market is now. True quartersawing is a pain in the neck, at least with my Woodmizer. You might search Woodfinder for a sanity check on prices. www.woodfinder.com

Hopefully someone currently in the business of sawing will chime in soon.

JKJ

Tom Hogard
12-17-2016, 11:23 PM
Cody,
Since he has milled thousands of bf for you in the past, is that how he charged 5/4 on previous jobs? If not, I would certainly ask him why he changed. Did you discuss the cost before he started the job? Personally, $4.50 bf for green red oak seems awfully high, perhaps that is appropriate for your area.

Around here, Doyle is the standard for buying and selling logs but it can be very inaccurate when estimating yield from a bandsaw mill, especially if the logs are on the small side. Diameters of 20-30", it is relatively close. Note: the International 1/8" Scale is quite accurate but seldom seen, International 1/4" Scale is pretty common, particularly in computer programs, scale cards and apps.

Although I custom mill for other people, I do occasionally sell logs milled to specifications. When I do, I price the log by the board foot of yield, plus milling fee. My fees vary according to thickness. So, if I have a walnut log that a client is interested in, I have it marked with the International 1/4" scale estimate and I'll explain that because I am using a bandsaw, it may yield about 10% more (depending on the size of the log). For example, I may quote him $1.25 per board foot for a walnut log. If it yields 200 board feet of lumber, and it is all milled at 4/4, then he would pay $1.25 + .50 = $1.75 p/bf for whatever it yields. It is pretty common for sawyers to count everything less than 1" as 4/4. I haven't heard of anyone counting less everything less than 2" as 8/4. My fees vary by thickness, in 1/4" increments (from 1/4 to 10/4, everything over 10/4 is .35 p/bf). I was a sawmill client for about 25 years before I bought my mill, and I never thought charging everything less than 1" as 4/4 was fair, so I don't do it that way.

For me, true yield will always be more than what I bill for. Since freshly milled 4/4 lumber is expected to be between 1.000 and 1.249" in thickness, I shoot for 1 1/8" thickness when milling 4/4, and it is billed as 4/4. The true volume is about 12.5% more, not a big deal when figuring footage but important when figuring potential weight of the load.

Quarter sawing can be pretty wasteful. If you got only the quartersawn lumber from the logs, then he may have been charging for what he had to mill to get that much quartersawn material. If you got all of the lumber from the logs, and he priced it all as quartersawn, it probably wasn't accurate (there will always be some rift and flat sawn material in the batch). In the end, if his explanation does not satisfy your questions, you'll need to find another sawyer.

Danny Hamsley
12-18-2016, 10:54 AM
I charge for actual thickness sawn. There is no rounding up to 2" for anything over 1" thick. That is just not fair and right. I would walk away and find another sawyer.

Cody Armstrong
12-18-2016, 7:29 PM
When he told me the 3500.00 dollar price I said I couldn't do it and I'd bring all the lumber back. So he halved the bdft to 395 instead of 790 and treated it as 4/4 for $1800.00
I know dealing with shake is a gamble and 4.50 for green is on the high side. I should get quite a bit of usable material. It was a cherry bark red oak that yielded a lot of very nice quarter sawn tiger stripe.
Guess I'll find out when it dries.

Yall's replies are what I thought and I don't know what he was thinking with charging for 8/4 when it's only 5/4. Maybe he was just confused. Doubt I'll enter into another deal like that with him again though.

Thank ya'll very much for the input and advice. Cody

Scott T Smith
12-18-2016, 7:55 PM
I've heard of sawyers scaling anything less than 1" as 4/4, but not anything thicker than 1" as 8/4. That makes no sense...

Cody Armstrong
12-19-2016, 6:43 AM
Before I entered this deal I searched on woodfinder for green red oak prices and sawyers and had no luck to verify the going rate for local QS red oak prices. Since prices vary widely in different areas and this is Southern vs Appalachian I didn't consult the forum for price data. Southern can have mineral stains and don't bother me in fact I think they add character. You just don't know until a log is opened up though.

Scott, since your in the business what do you sell green QS red oak for? Or do you ever sell it green.

Malcolm McLeod
12-19-2016, 8:41 AM
Just for a comparison range , I get a lot of material from Plywood Co. of Fort Worth:
Red Oak - -
4/4, #1 Common, 9'-10'L at $1.60/bft
8/4, QtrSawn Sel/Btr, 9'-10'L at $5.00/bft
These are the upper & lower bounds of their R.Oak, but most of their inventory runs ~$3.50/bft. This is all KD, and I don't know what the discount for green would be.

Cody Armstrong
12-19-2016, 11:10 AM
Thank you Malcolm. That is most helpful for price reference.