Shellac Masters: HELP!

[Mike Dowell]

Well, I'm finishing this small keepsake box I made(I'll update my original thread when it's done with pictures), and I'm using amber shellac from the box store. I brushed a couple coats on with a foam brush, and I got streaks and heavy spots. What I did to fix that was lightly sanding with 320g paper. At that point, I got a few light spots where I took too much shellac off, despite how gentle and careful I was. After that, I decided to try a 50/50 mixture(denatured alcohol of course), and I brushed this on. The streaks are WORSE NOW!:confused:

So, now I'm stuck in what I'm coining as a "shellac loop". 1) apply shellac 2)lightly sand and ruin coat 3)repeat step 1

Any advice? I'd hate to load up my sprayer for such a small project, but I will if that's what is necessary.

https://s24.postimg.org/spn5idylt/IMG_20161215_104240092.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/spn5idylt/)

[Prashun Patel]

Mike-

Your difficulties are from the shellac being a little too thick.

You haven't colored this, right? If yes, you'll have to be careful...

Give it a good day+ to dry.
Then sand it LEVEL with some 220 grit on a block and sand until the ridges have been flattened completely to both your eyes and your finger nails.
Then, take your bullseye shellac and mix it with DNA: 1part shellac: 2parts DNA.

Last, try brushing THAT on with your foam brush. Do not overbrush. deliberate stroke, partially overlapping next stroke, NO BACKBRUSHING.
To the extent possible, apply on horizontal not vertical surfaces.

If this still doesn't work for you, then come back. You can wipe that diluted shellac on with a shop towel. (it's actually called 'padding', because you work with a smaller, folded rag in more deliberate strokes that are more like thin painting than wiping a varnish. In fact, there's a fancier, more proper way to pad on the shellac which is more involved, but I won't go into that here).

[Stew Hagerty]

I agree with Prashun about sanding level then applying a thinned coat. I wouldn't try brushing though. I think that is where your problem lies. I would fold up a clean, dust free towel into a sort of pad (I'm not going into the more complicated process here either) then use it to wipe on a light coat. Let that dry for an hour or so and apply a second thinned coat. Wait another hour or two and reevaluate the piece. Let us know how it works.

[Mike Dowell]

Mike-

Your difficulties are from the shellac being a little too thick.

You haven't colored this, right? If yes, you'll have to be careful...

Give it a good day+ to dry.
Then sand it LEVEL with some 220 grit on a block and sand until the ridges have been flattened completely to both your eyes and your finger nails.
Then, take your bullseye shellac and mix it with DNA: 1part shellac: 2parts DNA.

Last, try brushing THAT on with your foam brush. Do not overbrush. deliberate stroke, partially overlapping next stroke, NO BACKBRUSHING.
To the extent possible, apply on horizontal not vertical surfaces.

If this still doesn't work for you, then come back. You can wipe that diluted shellac on with a shop towel. (it's actually called 'padding', because you work with a smaller, folded rag in more deliberate strokes that are more like thin painting than wiping a varnish. In fact, there's a fancier, more proper way to pad on the shellac which is more involved, but I won't go into that here).

OK, I did not stain the box. It is Bird's Eye Maple, and was very light, but now is very orange(which is what I wanted) due to the shellac. So, are you saying to basically sand the shellac off? Or, are you suggesting just to sand the existing shellac flat?

That said, I guess I got the light spots because I wasn't using a block. Should have used a block.

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

Well, I am glad I checked the "New Posts" before putting up my thread with the same problem.

Mike--thank you very much.

[Stew Hagerty]

OK, I did not stain the box. It is Bird's Eye Maple, and was very light, but now is very orange(which is what I wanted) due to the shellac. So, are you saying to basically sand the shellac off? Or, are you suggesting just to sand the existing shellac flat?

That said, I guess I got the light spots because I wasn't using a block. Should have used a block.


Did you use any oil or colorant on the wood prior to the shellac?'

If you did, then just try to sand it flat.

If not, then it really doesn't make any difference as long as you do one or the other. I wouldn't suggest sanding through in spots and not in others.

[glenn bradley]

This is very fixable. I agree with just sanding flat. One of the great things about shellac when I was getting a feel for it was that if things just got too far gone, I could soak a rag in DNA and rub nearly all of the shellac off and go again. You'll read a recurring theme from folks who use shellac quite a bit; thin coats applied with a pad. Although shellac is a film finish I do not use it if I want a thick layer. If you want a heavy build to hide imperfections, spray poly :D.

[Anthony Holohan]

Hi Mike, (and everyone) New member here.

If I may chip in. I'm a French polisher and furniture restorer. Looking at your photo, I'd say the problems are twofold.

1. The brush. A squirrel hair brush is best for applying shellac. Followed by bear bristle. Synthetic, or coarse paint brush bristles tend to drag the polish and it drys on the thicker bristles faster than on fine bristles so the shellac goes rubbery. Those foam brushes are not much use as the polish floods out rather than being gently layered on.
2. I think you've built up your polish too quickly by the look of it so it has 'piled.' Even though shellac dries quickly, if you apply too much in one sitting, it has a tendency to build up in peeks and troughs. If you brush more polish on, you are only going to exaggerate the problem as you discovered.

As has been said. That will have to be sanded right back or stripped to get a surface suitable for polishing. And you need a good brush. Or better still, be a little adventurous and try using a polishing rubber, as you stand more chance of getting a flat, even, French polished look. You don't need to body up, just use straight strokes until you have enough polish on to achieve a soft shine.

A top tip for brushing on shellac, is to add a splash of natural turpentine to a 3/4 full tin of polish. This helps slow drying time and will maintain a wet edge which will reduce piling or ridges. And allow 15-20 mins before going back. Apply an initial coat, then de-nibb with fine 320 grit abrasive before applying the next coat.

Hope that helps?

[Prashun Patel]

Anthony's technique is certainly superior and I do not mean to contradict. However, you can get perfectly "fine" results with a foam brush on small surfaces like your box. Turpentine or mineral spirits can certainly increase the open time, but they also risk clouding your surface a little, which then requires a final polish to remove it.

You do not need to strip the shellac off the surface. Just sand down the ridges. It does not matter if it's shiny in some spots and dull in others. In fact, while shellac CAN dry in layers, usually the layers fuse together. So, hazy/shiny variation can just mean that you still have some ridges of shellac. Sometimes it means that you have sanded all the way back to the wood, but not through the pores, where some shellac has dried and remains shiny. As long as the surface is flat, the new coat will not care if it goes on bare wood or shellac or different parts of both.

[Mike Dowell]

As long as the surface is flat, the new coat will not care if it goes on bare wood or shellac or different parts of both.

Prashun, the reason I was asking about sanding the whole thing vs just getting the ridges out is because if there are some spots which become more sanded than others, there will be some spots which are more amber than others. I guess I mean, the more shellac, the more orange the color, so uniformity is key.

I've gotten some great feedback(as always) here, so thank you! I'll get to sanding it tomorrow and come at it again. I'll be back with updates tomorrow.

[John TenEyck]

If sanding it is giving you light spots, it might be easier to just strip it off and start over. It won't take long and then you'll have a nice fresh surface to begin again - with a new technique. I've never found a foam brush that stands up to alcohol for more than a few seconds so I was surprised you were even able to use one. I'd be interested to know what brand you used. Anyway, I have the best luck wiping on shellac, at 2 lb cut or less, using a paper towel or cloth formed into a rubber like used for French polishing. Amber shellac in the can is a 3 lb cut, I believe, so you would have to cut it with DNA to make it 2 lbs. For one gallon you'd add another 1/2 gal of DNA. Of course, spraying is far and away the easiest way to apply shellac, so you might be done quicker doing it that way.

John

[Stan Calow]

Mike, this may not help at this point, but for small projects like this, I end up using rattle can shellac for at least the last coats.

[Robin Frierson]

I think you need a better brush. The Golden Talkon is my go to brush for shellac. Apply very thin coats

http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/products-we-offer/brushes/

[Mike Dowell]

Well, this is quickly becoming a disaster. I don't have time to get a new brush, and I'm not confident in my ability to produce the results I need with a brush. I don't have spray shellac in amber, and I'm not sure I've ever seen it before. I began sanding the bottom half of the box and realized that I just need to sand it all off. DNA does *not* take shellac off, or at least, the DNA that I have does not. I wipe and wipe, but it's still there. Unless someone tells me otherwise, I'm going to hit this box with Methylene Chloride this afternoon and start over. I'll wait a bit and see if there is any salvage at this point. If I do 1 part shellac and 2 parts DNA, how many coats would I have to wipe on? This is a Christmas present, and I've still got to flock the inside of it, so right now, I'm behind. Sort of freaking out - sorry.

https://s29.postimg.org/hnyz5dmhf/IMG_20161216_091247965.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/hnyz5dmhf/)


https://s29.postimg.org/yprt7h1cj/IMG_20161216_091259296.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/yprt7h1cj/)

[Prashun Patel]

If you feel more confident stripping then re-finishing with something else, then go for that.

For my money and time, I still stick by my advice: sand to flatten; don't worry about uneven color/sheen; brush on THINNED shellac with your foam brush. My foam brushes hold up fine for quick applications of shellac.

[John TenEyck]

Sorry to read your pain, Mike. We've all been there. Strip it off with KleanStrip Premium or something else with MC in it. You'll have it ready again in no time. Sanding is generally the removal method of last resort for me.

Forget brushing, it will just lead to more heartache. Cut your amber shellac to a 2 lb or less cut and wipe it on with a paper towel or lint free cloth, formed into a ball about the size of a golf ball. Dip, wipe, smooth, repeat, and don't go back over what you just did. Gently sand with 600 grit, vacuum, and repeat. Two coats is often enough on cherry or similar fine grained woods, 3 for sure. On something thirsty it will take one or two more to build a film. In any case, stop when you have a complete film, don't try to build it up like varnish.

You'll be done by tomorrow. Get to it!

John

[Jerry Olexa]

Remember Shellac is easily repairable...DA thins and dissolves it.
For future coats, thin liberally with DA and I suggest you pad it on..(no brush except for first coat...The DA in 2nd coat melds /blends the 2 coats together)
This will usually produce NO streaks or brush marks...
Just my experience

[Mike Henderson]

The only way I've gotten good results from shellac is with a sprayer. The only exception to that is when you only apply one coat and I put it on with a rag. As soon as you start to build with shellac, you'll start having the problems you experienced.

I know you don't want to get out the spray gun to do one small project but you'll get much better results, much easier.

Mike

[Stew Hagerty]

Well, this is quickly becoming a disaster. I don't have time to get a new brush, and I'm not confident in my ability to produce the results I need with a brush. I don't have spray shellac in amber, and I'm not sure I've ever seen it before. I began sanding the bottom half of the box and realized that I just need to sand it all off. DNA does *not* take shellac off, or at least, the DNA that I have does not. I wipe and wipe, but it's still there. Unless someone tells me otherwise, I'm going to hit this box with Methylene Chloride this afternoon and start over. I'll wait a bit and see if there is any salvage at this point. If I do 1 part shellac and 2 parts DNA, how many coats would I have to wipe on? This is a Christmas present, and I've still got to flock the inside of it, so right now, I'm behind. Sort of freaking out - sorry.

Mike,

Don't freak out. There is noting wrong with the way it looks right now. Leave it alone and start reapplying shellac by wiping it on. As I said before, fold a soft clean cloth until it forms a sort of pad. Apply some thinned shellac (1 shellac to 2 alcohol for the first couple of coats then switch to 1 to 1) in a series of light coats. Wipe it on then leave it alone for an hour, don't try to rewipe of fix anything. If needed you can scuff with 320 over anything that needs it before the next coat.

[glenn bradley]

I realize this is now of little value but, maybe for next time. I think your experience with trying to take off the shellac with DNA clarifies that there is way too much shellac on that puppy. I probably should have gone into more detail. I soak a rag in DNA, squeeze it till it just doesn't drip and wipe away. I have removed many coats of shellac in one or two shots this way. You do need to change the rag often or you just lay back down the softened shellac you just wiped up; think of cleaning up spilled milk. If you don't have a bag-o-rags for this purpose, paper towels will do. Change often, change often. I hope this experience does not stop you from trying shellac again. In almost any situation where I do not expect a lot of handling or abuse, I will turn to shellac as my preferred finish. I have even done entire pieces in shellac and then just added a bit of lacquer at the areas that will get a lot of handling like around door pulls.

[Mike Dowell]

You are all right. And I got over my temper tantrum. I freak out easily when I'm working on stuff that's really really important to me. I could refinish 10 dining tables with no trouble at all, but give me a sacred project, and boom.

I ended up scrubbing it all off with DNA and a maroon scotch pad. That worked really well. I then sanded again, and reapplied - with my sprayer. I just don't have any confidence in my ability to produce good results any other way than what I know. Now it just needs a couple coats of clear shellac, and a gentle rub. Thank you all for chiming in, and I will undoubtedly be back to read over this thread again when I have more sane time.


https://s27.postimg.org/4ichyc5b3/IMG_20161216_164819180.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4ichyc5b3/)

And, whoever asked what brand the foam brushes were - here ya go. HA! I just read that. My brilliance rarely impresses me more than my stupidity when it comes to simple things.
https://s27.postimg.org/iwksc4aa7/IMG_20161216_133113381.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/iwksc4aa7/)

[Stew Hagerty]

Mike

For future reference, although I have a nice HVLP system, whenever I spray shellac this is what I use:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EX0EYU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It simply plugs into your airhose, it's super easy to clean (especially since I only use it for shellac), and it's only $38.00!

It really works well. It's very easy to adjust the volume & pattern to get a perfect finish. Plus I don't have to drag out my big sprayer.

[Prashun Patel]

Why didn't you say you had a sprayer???? Glad it worked out.

[Mike Dowell]

Why didn't you say you had a sprayer???? Glad it worked out.
Just for fun, im going to try that pad method. Just want to see how it turns out - on scrap.

[Jon Nuckles]

Though I am late to this thread, one other tip: If you want to remove peaks and valleys from an uneven shellac finish, I find it faster and easier to use a card scraper than sandpaper. No loading problems and you can focus your efforts better.

[Phil Mueller]

I know this may sound weird, but I've had good luck wrapping a foam brush with a cotton rag. Kind of a foam "rubber". Let's me load the foam with shellac, but get's me the result of a cotton pad.

[John TenEyck]

How do all of you who use foam brushes keep them from going limp? I've never found a foam brush that will work for even 5 minutes without swelling and turning limp.

John

[Andy Giddings]

I use the Jen Manufacturing foam brushes from Amazon (order in bulk) and have never had an issue with swelling/limp or anything else

[Prashun Patel]

It is a pain to upload the picture, so you can choose to take my word:

I just used a jem brush to apply four coats of seal coat on a 12" x 24" hardboard panel just to see if I was remembering the durability of the foam brush incorrectly.

It held up fine. My brush handles also say not for use with shellac or lacquer. I had never seen that before.

I never reuse the foam brushes with shellac because they are cheap. So perhaps they do swell and deform with enough time. However it held up fine for at least 10 minutes.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks very much. I just added them to my Amazon Cart.

John

[Prashun Patel]

Here are some pictures of a foam shellac brush (left) vs a fresh brush. Forgive the black specks, I was previously using that brush to apply dye.

I applied 4 coats of shellac to the hardboard last night, giving about 3 minutes between coats. As you know, HB drinks up shellac, so drying and streaking was not an issue.

I left the brush in the open air all night, and then applied 4 more coats with the same brush this morning.

I admit, normally, I apply Sealcoat as a seal coat, and don't try to paint on a sheen. If I want sheen I almost always spray it...

You can see that the brush still performed fine and is holding up well. There is a bit of swelling, but I am unsure if that's just from absorption in the foam. When I pull at the seam, the foam does not yet appear to be failing.

The shellac does tend to ridge once it's built up. I suspect it's two reasons: 1) The shellac on the surface is still wet and is dragging and causing ridges when re-coated too quickly. 2) I think there is probably shellac IN the brush that, once the dna evaporates, may cause a thicker cut to be applied. All this is to say, let it dry, and use a fresh brush. The nice thing about thinned shellac is that even when shaken, the bubbles dissipate quickly - unlike in varnish. This means a foam brush is perfectly capable of laying down a bubble-free coat - as you can see from the picture. But I'd use a fresh one, and I wouldn't do them in as quick succession as I have.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Prashun. That brush looks far more normal after use than the ones with the red plastic handles I've been using. Those last a couple of minutes before swelling and turning limp.

John

[Prashun Patel]

I have been calling them JEM brushes, but I see mine are actually JEN Manufacturing.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi Mike, (and everyone) New member here.

If I may chip in. I'm a French polisher and furniture restorer. Looking at your photo, I'd say the problems are twofold.

1. The brush. A squirrel hair brush is best for applying shellac. Followed by bear bristle. Synthetic, or coarse paint brush bristles tend to drag the polish and it drys on the thicker bristles faster than on fine bristles so the shellac goes rubbery. Those foam brushes are not much use as the polish floods out rather than being gently layered on.
2. I think you've built up your polish too quickly by the look of it so it has 'piled.' Even though shellac dries quickly, if you apply too much in one sitting, it has a tendency to build up in peeks and troughs. If you brush more polish on, you are only going to exaggerate the problem as you discovered.

As has been said. That will have to be sanded right back or stripped to get a surface suitable for polishing. And you need a good brush. Or better still, be a little adventurous and try using a polishing rubber, as you stand more chance of getting a flat, even, French polished look. You don't need to body up, just use straight strokes until you have enough polish on to achieve a soft shine.

A top tip for brushing on shellac, is to add a splash of natural turpentine to a 3/4 full tin of polish. This helps slow drying time and will maintain a wet edge which will reduce piling or ridges. And allow 15-20 mins before going back. Apply an initial coat, then de-nibb with fine 320 grit abrasive before applying the next coat.

Hope that helps?

This is great Anthony. Thanks for posting it!
Fred

[Andy Bryant]

And, whoever asked what brand the foam brushes were - here ya go. HA! I just read that. My brilliance rarely impresses me more than my stupidity when it comes to simple things.
https://s27.postimg.org/iwksc4aa7/IMG_20161216_133113381.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/iwksc4aa7/)
God, do I know that feeling!! Almost as bad as buying something I already had.

[steve tomaselli]

I don't know if you have ever watched Paul Sellers but he shellaced a tool chest he built and used a Hake Brush. These brushes are used for water colors but they work beautifully with shellac. I bought one for myself and they do work nicely.They are on Amazon and the one I bought is 1 inch wide.About $10.00 with shipping.Paul Sellers has been woodworking for about 50 years and teaches also. If you get a chance go to his website I think you will enjoy him.

Steve T.