Best cutting gauge

[Kevin Hampshire]

I'd like a cutting gauge that will reliably cut across the grain for dovetail base lines, shoulders on tenons or breadboard ends.

I have some wheel gauges already but I'm looking for a tool that can slice an across the grain stop cut to work against. More like what I get using a square and a knife.



Lee Valley sells the Crown cutting gauge and two different Japanese styles. The Crown gauge looks good but I may also be interested in trying the Japanese version that has the two blades.

Does anyone use these or have another gauge that can slice across the grain?

[paul cottingham]

Wheel gauges cut across the grain very well. Otherwise, a slitting or cutting gauge is what you want.

[Jim Koepke]

I'd like a cutting gauge that will reliably cut across the grain for dovetail base lines, shoulders on tenons or breadboard ends.

I have some wheel gauges already but I'm looking for a tool that can slice an across the grain stop cut to work against. More like what I get using a square and a knife.



Lee Valley sells the Crown cutting gauge and two different Japanese styles. The Crown gauge looks good but I may also be interested in trying the Japanese version that has the two blades.

Does anyone use these or have another gauge that can slice across the grain?

If my memory is working mine is a Stanley #62 with the pin sharpened like a knife blade. It is very effective for scribing across and with the grain. Almost any wooden style marker with a replaceable or adjustable pin can be sharpened this way.

Derek Cohen posted something about a pseudo Japanese style gauge:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KinshiroOnTheCheap.html

jtk

[Kevin Hampshire]

Jim, I recall seeing articles about sharpening a pin towards a knife shape but worry that a pin might tend to hang up in early to late wood while working across the grain. Also, I'd really like to use a fenced gauge if it will cut/slice into the grain for a stop cut or shoulder that I can work off of.

I thought a proper cutting gauge might be faster and more efficient than knifing in with a marking knife and square.

[Patrick Chase]

I'd like a cutting gauge that will reliably cut across the grain for dovetail base lines, shoulders on tenons or breadboard ends.

I have some wheel gauges already but I'm looking for a tool that can slice an across the grain stop cut to work against. More like what I get using a square and a knife.

At the risk of asking a silly question: Have you tried sharpening your wheel gauges' blades (or replacing the blades if they're too far gone)?

[Patrick Chase]

Jim, I recall seeing articles about sharpening a pin towards a knife shape but worry that a pin might tend to hang up in early to late wood while working across the grain.

A pin gauge prepared as Jim describes (you can find instructions all over the place if you search) *is* a knife gauge. If you grind a round piece of metal such that it has an edge instead of a point, then it's a knife.

w.r.t. "hanging up", one solution is to cant the edge of the knife a bit so that it tends to pull the fence into the workpiece.

[Kevin Hampshire]

Patrick, Good point on sharpening the wheel gauges. I'll touch them up but don't they still leave more of a mark versus making a cut?

[Frederick Skelly]

Patrick, Good point on sharpening the wheel gauges. I'll touch them up but don't they still leave more of a mark versus making a cut?

Kevin, I sharpened mine a while back and they make an actual bevel-shaped cut. It's enough to "start" a chisel.

[Dan Hulbert]

You can always make one. Marking gauges are easy to make and customize to your style. I made a slicing gauge by chopping a tapered, 1/4" mortise in the beam, shaping and sharpening a 1/4" strip of saw plate to a spear point, then making a wedge to hold the blade in place. Works great, looks like a drew the line with a marking knife.

This thread got me thinking that maybe I'd try to change the blade profile from a V point to a curved edge. More like a wheel without the rotation. Just need to make another blade for the gauge to try it out.

[Mike Brady]

I use the Lie-Nielsen slicing gauge shown here: https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/inlay-tools/tools-for-inlay-latta-slicing-gauge-?node=4082. I did make a different cutter for it using a piece of an old card scraper. The cutter I made has what is often called a "fingernail" grind. This is critical for a cutting gauge because a pointed blade will catch on cross-grain and follow long-grain; neither of which is good. Although I still use a Tite-Mark on smaller work, the cutting gauge fits well in the hand for larger jobs. By the way, the bevel on the fingernail grind faces the inside of the gauge.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, Good point on sharpening the wheel gauges. I'll touch them up but don't they still leave more of a mark versus making a cut?

It depends on the wood, how you use it, and what you define as a "cut". In my experience (and as Frederick said) a sharp wheel gauge will leave a cut with a bevel on one side and a vertical wall on the other, that is more than sufficient for starting chisels etc.

[Prashun Patel]

I am partial to wheel gauges. I find them more comfortable to hold and adjust than even the nicer knife gauges. I also find them to cut straigher lines without following the grain when marking with the grain. This puzzles me because almost nobody else has the same experience.

The gauges are cheap, and the wheels are cheap to replace. So, it won't break the bank to have 2-3 for mortise set ups.

If you need a deep knife cut for better saw registration, make your mark, and then go over the line with a marking knife.

You can also use blue tape across your base line. In this case, the gauge will cut the tape at the base line, and the 'ridge' of tape will provide surprisingly useful registration for chisels and or a saw blade. If you work in dark woods, the contrast of the tape is a boon here.

[Stew Hagerty]

I have 3 wheel gauges (not counting my panel gauge), several vintage marking gauges, one vintage cutting gauge (unmarked), and the Japanese Ebony Mortise Gauge from Lee Valley. http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=50263&cat=1,42936

I have found that, while I really like the wheel gauges for marking, if I want to make a cut line, I prefer the Japanese gauge. The heavy blades can be honed razor sharp, and they make clean, crisp, and deep lines to cut against.


349520

[glenn bradley]

Another wheel gauge guy here. I keep the cutter razor sharp.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, I recall seeing articles about sharpening a pin towards a knife shape but worry that a pin might tend to hang up in early to late wood while working across the grain. Also, I'd really like to use a fenced gauge if it will cut/slice into the grain for a stop cut or shoulder that I can work off of.

I thought a proper cutting gauge might be faster and more efficient than knifing in with a marking knife and square.

Two of my marking gauges are sharpened to be more like knives than pins. One is flat on both sides and the other has a slight round on the side toward the fence. They both work well. The flat blade tends to leave a thinner line.

If one makes the first pass lightly with the blade trailing, it will be less likely to follow any grain. Subsequent passes can then deepen the cut.

Until the base line of a dovetail is established it is my tendency to work away from the scribed line. The bevel on the chisel tends to push the blade into and past the line if one isn't very careful.

Another thought if you want a deeply scribed line would be to use a Stanley #45, or other similar plane, with a slitting cutter. Otherwise the best option might be to make your own panel style gauge.

Many ways to get where you are going, you just need to find the one that works best for you.

jtk

[Robert Engel]

I have the double LV wheel gauge.

I have constant problems with set screw coming loose. Really have to watch how you grip the thing.

[Patrick Chase]

Another wheel gauge guy here. I keep the cutter razor sharp.

One thing I forgot to say: Every wheel gauge I've ever used has come from the manufacturer in what I would describe as less-than-sharp condition. That includes 4 Veritas gauges (standard, dual, pocket, 3-in-1) and a Tite-Mark. I always hone the wheels before putting them into use.

The Veritas 3-in-1 (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=50440&cat=1,42936) offers the option of a knife configuration (using standard disposable blades), but it's not quite as usable as a traditional full-sized knife gauge IMO. With that said it's useful enough that I keep an extra stem on hand configured with the knife.

The Tite-Mark has an optional "scoring" wheel that can be used to make deeper cuts, though the gauge itself is definitely a "luxury item".

[Patrick Chase]

I have the double LV wheel gauge.

I have constant problems with set screw coming loose. Really have to watch how you grip the thing.

Specifically which hand you use and whether you push/pull. Like most wheel gauges the blade is self-tightening when pulled from the right hand (assuming the fence is to the right of the workpiece). A sharp blade will help going the other way since it will generate less resistance and therefore rotational force, but that's a problem with all wheel gauges.

[Jim Koepke]

Specifically which hand you use and whether you push/pull. Like most wheel gauges the blade is self-tightening when pulled from the right hand (assuming the fence is to the right of the workpiece). A sharp blade will help going the other way since it will generate less resistance and therefore rotational force, but that's a problem with all wheel gauges.

Another problem with wheel gauges is the name. Some believe since it is a wheel gauge the cutter should rotate like a wheel. In fact, the cutting wheel should be stationary to the shaft.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Another problem with wheel gauges is the name. Some believe since it is a wheel gauge the cutter should rotate like a wheel. In fact, the cutting wheel should be stationary to the shaft.

jtk

Wow, I hadn't ever even considered that possibility. It should be pretty obvious that the gauge is only consistent when the wheel is registered firmly to the shaft...

[lowell holmes]

May I suggest what I use when I need a really crisp mark? I use a tri-square or a bevel gage and a box cutter. Rotate the box cutter so one the edge touching the square is vertical.

At the Homestead Heritage beginner wood working classes, box cutters were the marking gages.

[Glen Canaday]

I have a Veritas wheel, a HF Special mortise gauge, a vintage Stanley pin gauge, an unmarked vintage panel gauge, and an xacto with about 19 squares here there and everywhere.

I end up using the xacto with a decent square more often than any of them.

Edit: also a curve marking gauge made by someone in chicago that I have never once used.

[Patrick Chase]

I have a Veritas wheel, a HF Special mortise gauge, a vintage Stanley pin gauge, an unmarked vintage panel gauge, and an xacto with about 19 squares here there and everywhere.

I end up using the xacto with a decent square more often than any of them.

Edit: also a curve marking gauge made by someone in chicago that I have never once used.

I agree completely with the sentiment, though I don't like X-actos in particular because most of their blades are bevelled on both sides and therefore don't register precisely to the straightedge. Box-cutters have the same issue. I have a pretty large assortment of marking knives though :-).

[Kevin Hampshire]

I have 3 wheel gauges (not counting my panel gauge), several vintage marking gauges, one vintage cutting gauge (unmarked), and the Japanese Ebony Mortise Gauge from Lee Valley. http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=50263&cat=1,42936

I have found that, while I really like the wheel gauges for marking, if I want to make a cut line, I prefer the Japanese gauge. The heavy blades can be honed razor sharp, and they make clean, crisp, and deep lines to cut against.


349520

Stew, That's the exact gauge I was asking about. I wondered if the Eastern tool aficionados are using these or some other variant. LV markets it as a marking gauge versus the Crown (that I also asked about) brand that is marketed as a cutting gauge.

Using a 24" table top with breadboard ends as an example, there's over 96" of baseline that needs to be cut in to establish a clean cross grain shoulder. I was wondering if one of these would work as more of a fenced knife to quickly and accurately cut that shoulder.

[Simon MacGowen]

One thing I forgot to say: Every wheel gauge I've ever used has come from the manufacturer in what I would describe as less-than-sharp condition. That includes 4 Veritas gauges (standard, dual, pocket, 3-in-1) and a Tite-Mark. I always hone the wheels before putting them into use..

I never found a new Veritas wheel gauge received as dull or not sharp enough. In fact, I prefer a sharp edge over a super-sharp one when I score my work -- for some good reasons.

In dovetail work, it is easier to split the "dull" knife line than one that's too thin for my eyes. For knife walls, it is easier to place a blade or a chisel into the tiny notch. Finally, a "dull" edge holds longer and doesn't need re-honing too often (I do not enjoy sharpening, but it is an essential devil for fine work).

For me, being sharper is not being better here. I do hone my Veritas wheels, but only after some prolonged use.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

I never found a new Veritas wheel gauge received as dull or not sharp enough. In fact, I prefer a sharp edge over a super-sharp one when I score my work -- for some good reasons.

In dovetail work, it is easier to split the "dull" knife line than one that's too thin for my eyes. For knife walls, it is easier to place a blade or a chisel into the tiny notch.

The width of a knife line comes from the bevel of the cutter and how deeply you cut (width = depth*tan(bevel)), not from the sharpness or dullness of the blade. It's easier to make a deep and therefore wide cut with a sharp blade.



Finally, a "dull" edge holds longer and doesn't need re-honing too often (I do not enjoy sharpening, but it is an essential devil for fine work).

There is a LOT of evidence saying exactly the opposite - sharp blades tend to stay sharp longer, while dull ones degrade quickly to uselessness.

[lowell holmes]

Isn't there a difference between a cutting gauge and a marking gauge? I don't consider a wheel gauge to be a cutting gauge.

[Patrick Chase]

Isn't there a difference between a cutting gauge and a marking gauge? I don't consider a wheel gauge to be a cutting gauge.

Yes, but wheel gauges can be used as either. IMO the only "pure" marking gauges are ones with pins.

[Simon MacGowen]

1) The width of a knife line comes from the bevel of the cutter and how deeply you cut (width = depth*tan(bevel)), not from the sharpness or dullness of the blade. It's easier to make a deep and therefore wide cut with a sharp blade.



2) There is a LOT of evidence saying exactly the opposite - sharp blades tend to stay sharp longer, while dull ones degrade quickly to uselessness.

***
1) Not necessarily true: for the same downward pressure, a more blunt edge can make a wider mark than a sharper edge. Wider and deeper are not the same thing that I referred to. As I stated, I prefer "blunter" knife or wheel for certain work. If your preference is different or opposite, be my guest.




***

2) You misunderstood me: I didn't say a less sharp edge would stay sharp longer. I was saying a dull cutter didn't need rehoning too often in my case because I didn't need it to be super sharp at all times.

Also, it is not true that a sharp blades will stay sharp longer just because it is honed sharper to start with. How long the sharpness will stay depends on the steel (e.g. PMV11 vs O1), the angle, the material the blade works on, etc. It is true though that a sharper blade or chisel is easier to control and to get the desired results.

Simon

[lowell holmes]

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/articleindex/mystery_of_the_marking_gauge

And the link is an excellent article. I have made several including one with two pins 1/4" apart.

[Patrick Chase]

***
1) Not necessarily true: for the same downward pressure, a more blunt edge can make a wider mark than a sharper edge. Wider and deeper are not the same thing that I referred to. As I stated, I prefer "blunter" knife or wheel for certain work. If your preference is different or opposite, be my guest.

For the same *depth* a blunt edge will make a wider mark. For the same *downward pressure* a sharp edge will cut deeper, and thereby make a wider mark as well. It's not even a close comparison in my experience.



2) You misunderstood me: I didn't say a less sharp edge would stay sharp longer. I was saying a dull cutter didn't need rehoning too often in my case because I didn't need it to be super sharp at all times.

Sure, if you have no standards then you never need to sharpen.



Also, it is not true that a sharp blades will stay sharp longer just because it is honed sharper to start with. How long the sharpness will stay depends on the steel (e.g. PMV11 vs O1), the angle, the material the blade works on, etc. It is true though that a sharper blade or chisel is easier to control and to get the desired results.


As a very general rule defects in edges made of hardened steel tend to spread. Chips grow and merge, etc. Obviously it depends on the situation, but in general dulling is a self-reinforcing spiral once you get beyond a certain point.

[Simon MacGowen]

For the same *depth* a blunt edge will make a wider mark. For the same *downward pressure* a sharp edge will cut deeper, and thereby make a wider mark as well. It's not even a close comparison in my experience.



Sure, if you have no standards then you never need to sharpen.



As a very general rule defects in edges made of hardened steel tend to spread. Chips grow and merge, etc. Obviously it depends on the situation, but in general dulling is a self-reinforcing spiral once you get beyond a certain point.

Suffice to say that your standards may be different but aren't better than anyone else, certainly no where better than mine in practical terms!

Simon

[Andy Nichols]

Rob Cosman sells a large cutting wheel for his gauges, leaves a deep crisp cut....easy enough to do the same type of modification to other wheel gauges...

Regards,
Andy

[Derek Cohen]

I'd like a cutting gauge that will reliably cut across the grain for dovetail base lines, shoulders on tenons or breadboard ends.

I have some wheel gauges already but I'm looking for a tool that can slice an across the grain stop cut to work against. More like what I get using a square and a knife.



Lee Valley sells the Crown cutting gauge and two different Japanese styles. The Crown gauge looks good but I may also be interested in trying the Japanese version that has the two blades.

Does anyone use these or have another gauge that can slice across the grain?


As mentioned by others, wheel gauges work well, and benefit from being sharp. To sharpen, simply remove (unscrew) and rub the flat side on a 1200 grit diamond stone. The cutters of the wheel gauge are very thin, and this can be a drawback to their use in dark woods as the resulting line is difficult to see. This is one of the reasons I developed the blue tape method (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html) for marking out dovetails. It also makes the wheel gauge less suitable for marking along the grain. When you do so, use light strokes until you have severed the fibres. Otherwise the wheel will be taken off course by the grain.

Of course, across the grain is where these gauges score over pins. Both the Tite-Mark and the Veritas gauges are excellent.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/3.jpg

Better still can be a sharp knife gauge, such as the Japanese Kinshiro. Mine is a mortice gauge but one arm can be retracted to become a single cutting gauge. The blades are superb and take a sharp edge with a fine bevel. This makes for a sharply defined line that is deeper and clearer than a wheel gauge.

I like this gauge so much that I have build a number of copies with single arms from cheap gauges. The problem with the cheap gauges is the steel is not as refined, and the bevel cannot be ground as fine. They do good work, nevertheless ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Cutting%20Gauge%202/CG3_zps645bbfb3.jpg

One other gauge I made uses a wheel and a wider fence ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Two%20New%20Mortice%20and%20Cutting%20Gauges/8_zpsdjorefly.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

I agree completely with the sentiment, though I don't like X-actos in particular because most of their blades are bevelled on both sides and therefore don't register precisely to the straightedge. Box-cutters have the same issue. I have a pretty large assortment of marking knives though :-).

In the same cheap-but-effective vein as X-actos and box-cutters but with a single-sided bevel, I just counted and have no fewer than 4 of these lying around: http://www.leevalley.com/US/garden/page.aspx?p=69870&cat=1,42936,42949&ap=1. I also have an assortment of bigger marking knives (Hock and Veritas) but those little ones are hard to beat for the money and for tight spaces. The handle-less Hocks are also handy for things like tight pin sockets.

The blade is thick enough to re-sharpen, so they end up being pretty cost-effective in the long run.

[Frederick Skelly]

Another problem with wheel gauges is the name. Some believe since it is a wheel gauge the cutter should rotate like a wheel. In fact, the cutting wheel should be stationary to the shaft.

jtk

Good observation Jim.

[Kevin Hampshire]

Two of my marking gauges are sharpened to be more like knives than pins. One is flat on both sides and the other has a slight round on the side toward the fence. They both work well. The flat blade tends to leave a thinner line.

If one makes the first pass lightly with the blade trailing, it will be less likely to follow any grain. Subsequent passes can then deepen the cut.

Until the base line of a dovetail is established it is my tendency to work away from the scribed line. The bevel on the chisel tends to push the blade into and past the line if one isn't very careful.

Another thought if you want a deeply scribed line would be to use a Stanley #45, or other similar plane, with a slitting cutter. Otherwise the best option might be to make your own panel style gauge.

Many ways to get where you are going, you just need to find the one that works best for you.

jtk

Jim, I have several of those rosewood pinned marking gauges. I'll file the pins on one when I sharpen my wheel gauges.

Also, I see you're determined to help me need a Stanley #45! I forgot about the slitting blades.

I did take Stew's recommendation on the Lee Valley Asian cutting gauge and have one coming. Like you said, "many ways" and I'll try several of the suggestions here including blue tape and making my own gauges.

[Dave Parkis]

I have a Hamilton marking/cutting gauge. Its only a single blade so it doesn't work for mortises, but it works very well for a single scribe line. They are a bit pricey, but a joy to use.

[Mark Fisher]

If you want the best (and you should with layout tools!) you want a Tite-Mark gauge. I had a Lee Valley wheel type gauge, but this is much better. They are definitely not cheap, but worth every penny.

[Jim Koepke]

If you want the best (and you should with layout tools!) you want a Tite-Mark gauge. I had a Lee Valley wheel type gauge, but this is much better. They are definitely not cheap, but worth every penny.

My Tite-Mark™ is my favored marking gauge, not sure it scribes as deeply as the OP might want.

Just looking at the site there may be a perfect answer for this:

http://www.glen-drake.com/Scoring-Blade.html

An oversized marking wheel for deep scoring.

As Mark said, "not cheap, but worth every penny."

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

My Tite-Mark™ is my favored marking gauge, not sure it scribes as deeply as the OP might want.

Just looking at the site there may be a perfect answer for this:

http://www.glen-drake.com/Scoring-Blade.html

An oversized marking wheel for deep scoring.

Yep, that's what I was referring to in #17 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?249872-Best-cutting-gauge&p=2634694#post2634694). It would take a fair amount of pressure to make a deep cut in wood with that (it's designed for use with softer materials) but I think it would get the job done.

The convenience and usability of Tite-Mark's adjustment mechanism has to be experienced to be appreciated. I think that Veritas' collet-based scheme has better retention, but I don't put enough pressure on the fence for that to matter to me.